Are most new toilets in Germany considered "Low Flow" Toilets?

[Up2Late]

Anyone know? Germany also seems to be far ahead of the U.S. in the fields of Recycling and Wind Power too, but that will probably be the subject of other posts later. I just got back from an eleven day trip to Germany, Poland and Czech Republic and was very impressed with the efficiency of the German and Polish toilets (We only stopped for lunch in Czech Republic, so I can't really comment or report on the C.R. pluming).

One thing I did notice about the German and Polish toilets was that, the drain pipes for the toilet (and the drain within the toilets) is much larger than the average U.S. Toilet drain. I would estimate the DK and PL toilet drains were 5 to 6 inches as opposed to 3 to 4 inch drains in the average U.S. toilet which, to no surprise, seems to require less water per flush to clear the toilet of solid waste.

One thing that I didn't find in Germany or Poland, which I did find on past trips to France, was the dual flush system (I don't know if that's what that system is called, but on some French toilets they have a second lever for a smaller flush, for clearing "non-solid waste," if you get my meaning), which, though confusing the first time you encounter it, seems like a good system too.

Has anyone in the U.S. (Fed, State or Local) who are writing the regulations for "Low-Flow" toilets ever addressed the size of the U.S. toilet drain?

And, how difficult would it be to start requiring (or retrofitting old systems) larger drains for U.S. toilets?

[Bjornsdotter]

1. They are in Sweden

Aren't they great. I've tried to find them here but no luck.

Cheers


Edit....in Sweden they have the split push button on top.

[MissHoneychurch]

2. About the "short flush"

in Germany. We do have them. Just not separated. New toilets are designed that way that if you only press shortly on the flush, it just flushes really short. Only if you press longer, more water comes.

[JFreitas]

4. Dual flush...

Same in Portugal. Its almost impossible nowadays to get toilets flushes that are not dual - with two buttons - or "regulatable" where you can control the amount of water with your pressure. Some studies show more than 40% immediate saving in water by simply introducing these flushes.

José de Freitas
Portugal

[Up2Late]

7. I believe you, but I think it's something you might need to teach or demonstraite...

...for any North American guests the first time they visit. It might be a bit awkward, but we definitely don't have that system in most of the U.S.

[Solo_in_MD]

3. Pipe sizes are a national standard for obvious reasons

As for low flow...I am far from impressed. The one we have is so ineffective with "solid waste" that you have to flush 2X. Have to wonder if there is a black market in the US for toilets that work...

I have seen the split flush systems and think they have some merit.

[Shipwack]

8. All the low flow toilets I've seen in America suck...

Or rather, they don't suck enough.

However, when I was overseas in the Kingdom of Bahrain, all the low flow toilets I used worked just fine. So I'm thinking it's a problem with American engineering, or maybe building design.

[Solo_in_MD]

9. Not sure what the issue is...

The pipe size is clearly not the isse, so I am not sure what it is.

I remember reading a while back about people who went accross the border to get toilets in Canada. I now understand why

[Xithras]

10. There are good ones, you just have to pay for them.

The problem with toilets in the US is that home builders typically pick the cheapest toilet they can find when putting up a home. When homeowners, or rental repair guys, replace toilets later, they likewise tend to replace them with the cheapest thing they can pick up at Home Depot or Lowes.

When my wife and I renovated the bathrooms in our house last year, rather than simply choosing something cheap that looked good, we did a little research. We ended up buying a pair of $300 toilets from Toto. A bit more than the cheap American Standard's you'll find at Home Depot, but these things use very little water, they NEVER plug (and I have a two year old who is constantly flushing things), and I've never had to flush twice. They're also almost perfectly silent when flushing and refilling. Even companies like American Standard DO make higher quality low-water toilets, but people here don't like to spend the money on them.

The problem isn't that American design is flawed, it's that American's are cheap and are willing to put up with crappy toilets (pardon the pun) to save a few bucks.

[Shipwack]

11. That I'll believe... nt

[AZCat]

12. Here's a good resource for toilet performance.

The California Urban Water Conservation Council (CUWCC) rates toilets for performance and updates the list pretty frequently (several times a year). You can view their Maximum Performance Testing page here where the report is available (I recommend downloading the condensed version - it is easier to find the information you need there than in the other).

We here at my work find their reports quite useful (even if the photos of the fake "poo" cause bouts of juvenile laughter).

[Xithras]

13. Thank you for that link.

What an eye opener. Some of those cheapie American Standards barely flush 125 grams of "poo", while the better ones (like my Totos) flush 700-1000. No wonder so many people complain about low flush toilets. I'm a bit disappointed though, to see that mine aren't high efficiency. They're 1.6 gallon, but I was under the impression that they were high efficiency models. That's still pretty efficient, but my renovation was supposed to be green, and now it's just sort of greenish :(

You know that the guys who wrote that must have had a lot of fun on THAT project. "Hey guys, I want you to test 100 toilets and find out how much poo they'll flush" :rofl:

[AZCat]

15. I can only imagine what their lab must be like.

I wonder if they give tours.


Yeah, it can be a bit disappointing but as someone upthread (maybe you, I don't remember) pointed out it is often that a so-called "low flush" toilet actually uses more water per "use" because of double flushing, and in your case that doesn't seem like the case.

[doc03]

5. I don't know about their plumbing but I was

there 40 years ago and their toilet tissue technology was lacking, the stuff was like emery cloth. I would have paid double for a roll of Charmin.

[Up2Late]

6. I never had the pleasure of the "emory cloth" tissues, but I do remember a few...

...that reminded me of the "Wax Paper" we use to cover something in the microwave oven, nasty stuff. I think that stuff was more common pre-1990's.

I think things have improve a lot in that regard, over the last 15-20 years, I'm happy to say.

[eppur_se_muova]

14. Is this the "World's Greatest Toilet" ?

Toto Model # MS990CG -
Neorest 600 Unique Tankless One Piece Toilet with Integrated Washlet Seat
Toto toilets
Features:

* Sleek, tankless, one-piece toilet with integrated Washlet seat
* New Cyclone Flushing system, no waiting for refill, no refill noise.
* Skirted styling with concealed trapway for easy cleaning
* Integrated Washlet features front and rear warm water washing, automatic air dryer and deodorizer
* SanaGloss: Super smooth, ion barrier glazing cleans your toilet bowl with every flush
* Automatic Operation: Air purifier, lid opens/closes and toilet flushes when sensor is activated
* Remote Control: The Neorest comes with a wireless remote control and all toilet and Washlet functions can be handled via the remote: motorized seat (up, down, temperature), water temperature, Cyclone flush, massage, oscillate, and change wand position.
* Three Year Limited Manufacturer Warranty (by Toto)

Sleek, tankless, low silhouette profile ELONGATED one piece toilet with integrated Washlet. Low consumption (6 Lpf/1.6 Gpf) Cyclone flushing action. SanaGloss glazing. 12" rough-in.

Tank cover, fittings, mounting covers and Washlet included.

Remote control? I can see having some fun with that!

(Don't forget to visit the International Museum of Toilets http://www.sulabhtoiletmuseum.org/ , read up on the history of toilets http://www.plumbingsupply.com/toilethistoryindia.html , and get a good price for your toilet tank lid http://www.plumbingstore.com/worldsearchtanklids.html !)

[Up2Late]

16. "Wireless" remote control!!! What's the point of that?

I guess because they can. And where is it stowed anyway?

I worked at the photo lab where some of the Toto photos were processed (a few years ago), so I have seen most of the "high-res" photos of some of the current Toto models, most are very expensive, but the do just about anything you can imagine or wish a toilet could do.

I love all the code words that they use, in the ads, to try to keep the ad from sounding like something from "The Onion" like "...Integrated Washlet features front and rear warm water washing, automatic air dryer and deodorizer...." (a.k.a. "an electronically controlled, warm water blast and warm air Ass dryer, which makes toilet paper a thing of the past...").:spray: