Cars that make hybrids look like gas guzzlers ... Plug-in versions can go 100 miles on a gallon of

[RedEarth]

Toyota Prius owners tend to be a proud lot since they drive the fuel-efficient hybrid gas-electric car that's the darling of mainstream environmentalists and one of the hottest-selling vehicles in America. A few, however, felt that good was not good enough. They've made "improvements" even though the modifications voided parts of their warranties.

Ron Gremban of Corte Madera did it. So did Felix Kramer of Redwood City, and Sven Thesen of Palo Alto. Why? Five words: one hundred miles per gallon.

"We took the hybrid car to its logical conclusion," Kramer says, by adding more batteries and the ability to recharge by plugging into a regular electrical socket at night, making the car a plug-in hybrid.

Compared with the Prius' fuel efficiency of 50 mpg, plug-in hybrids use half as much gasoline by running more on cleaner, cheaper, domestic electricity. If owners forget to plug in overnight, it's no big deal -- the car runs like a regular hybrid.

These trendsetters monkeyed with the car for more than their own benefit. They did it to make a point: If they could make a plug-in hybrid, the major car companies could, too. And should.

Kramer, Gremban and a cadre of volunteers formed the California Cars Initiative (online at calcars.org), and in 2004 converted Gremban's Prius to a plug-in hybrid in his garage. They added inexpensive lead-acid batteries and some innovative software to fool the car's computerized controls into using more of the energy stored in the batteries, giving the car over 100 mpg in local driving and 50 to 80 mpg on the highway. The cost of conversion is about $5,000 for a do-it-yourselfer.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/04/ING44OD4AS1.DTL

[sellitman]

1. Awesome!

I wonder if Toyota will take note and make this standard fare in the future? Voted and kicked!

[RedEarth]

2. and a little more from the article.......

There are only a few dozen plug-in hybrids in the world, while demand for them is growing rapidly. The city of Austin, Texas, which uses more renewable power than any other U.S. city, started a Plug-in Partners Campaign and gathered more than 8,000 advance orders for plug-in hybrids. In the Bay Area, San Francisco, Alameda, Berkeley and Marin County signed on as Plug-in Partners.

....

Plug-in hybrids won't hit the market, though, until better batteries are developed, the automakers say. That doesn't sit well with drivers like Marc Geller of San Francisco, who co-founded the nonprofit group Plug In America (www.pluginamerica.org). The nickel-metal hydride batteries in Gellers' all-electric 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV give the compact SUV plenty of power, take him all over the Bay Area, and are expected to last the life of the car, based on utility company fleet tests.

Consumers appear to have three options to hasten the arrival of plug-in hybrids: Demand them ("Tell the automakers that you won't buy a new car unless it has a plug on it," Geller says), or push for government incentives or interventions.

[gmaki]

3. Not to be picky but

Claiming you are getting 100 miles to the gallon by plugging in is a bit misleading. I mean if you were driving an all electric car would you claim to be getting infinite mpg?

[robinlynne]

4. yes.

[IDemo]

5. They are talking about "equivalent mpg"

For electric vehicles, mpg represents the number of miles that can be traveled using an amount of electricity equivalent to the energy in a gallon of gasoline.

[Solo_in_MD]

6. I love it when fools ignore Sir Issac

Energy has to come from somewhere. Electric cars are just pulling power from somewhere else, unless they are solar powered/charged. All that does is transfer the pollution and such elsewhere. It does not eliminate it. Neither Al Gore nor the repukes can break the basic laws of physics.

Note that all electric cars have been around for some time. Like solar power, to date they have been be more of a hobbyist/enthusiasts gadget, rather than for the masses. Hopefully that will change for both areas in the next 10 years.

[w4rma]

7. The point is that these cars use less fuel, whether that fuel is supplied by a power plant or our

soldiers' blood in the middle east.

[IDemo]

8. Nobody is trying to debunk Newton

Electric cars are cleaner and more energy efficient overall than internal combustion ones, even when charged from coal-fired plants.

It's all here-> Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks

[Solo_in_MD]

10. I agree that the daily energy usage is more effiecnt

due to economises of scale and that a power plant is a much better controlled source of pollution.

When you factor in the issues with the batteries the overall pollutant balance is a little more hazy. I've read articles on both sides of that, and I am not sure that there is a concensus yet.

It just drives me nuts to see electrics labelled as emmisons or polluant free, since it is inherently dishonest.

[Gregorian]

9. How dare you threaten us! We must have our CARS!

Oh, and thank you for bringing up what no one wants to look at. I'm usually the one who has to do it. And I'll spare you the volumes of blabber that I dearly want to type. In lieu, I'll just mention that we're CAR CRAZED. And one other thing- it's not just cars. Supposedly (and I haven't looked into it further) shipping is the major carbon producer. And there are a dozen other important things, but I have to go shopping now. In my CAR.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. Real killer for battery only electric cars is air conditioning

and Americans are not ready to give that up yet. Automatic transmissions don't help either. I say this as a person with a grid tied solar farm and early experinece with electric cars. Great hobbies, but not ready for prime time quite yet.

[Gregorian]

12. Cool.

I'm a mechanical engineer who grew up in Silicon Valley when there were dairy farms. I've been watching this field like a hawk. It's absolutely pathetic that we let things get this far. We're sitting on our fat asses in this country. We'd rather create violence in other countries than change. We could have put our efforts into this a long time ago. Bla bla bla.

What I really would like to see is your farm. I just sold a beautiful farm. I'm now sitting in a rental house wondering where I'll find a place to replace it. And I'm going to be off the grid.

By the way, if you need info, and I'm sure you already know about it, Home Power magazine was a periodical I used to subscribe to. I think they are also on the net.

All I wanted in life was silence. My last place had 4 foot salmon in the creeks this last winter. And elk. I just couldn't handle the looming logging in the backyard. I left before they "moonscaped" my entire view. And now I'm just sitting with my money in the bank, nervous.

If I were the kind to just jump in a vehicle, I'd look at the east coast. But my sense is that property is just as expensive there as on the west coast where I am.

It's the population, ultimately. The only way we're going to get a handle on things is to rapidly curb growth. But that is very threatening to people, for some reason.

[Solo_in_MD]

13. Home Power really is the journal of record for alternative power

By solar farm, I meant a large (48 panel) site. It helps tremendously on the bills, but is a fair amount of work to keep it running efficiently. The latter is the real issue with it becoming more prevalent.

Solar installations take planning and upkeep if they are going to deliver on their promise. Not everyone has the time or expertise to do that. The new hardware is making it cheaper and easier, but the work is still there. Quarterly elevation changes and even just keeping them clean go a long way to maximizing output.

With cars, most Americans I know do the minimum, gas and oil when required, tires when absolutely necessary. That kind of minimalistic approach will kill an electric car.

Energy solutions are out there but they require more people taking individual responsibility and a certain amount of pride in it. Not something I see a lot of these days.

[Gregorian]

23. Electric cars have great potential.

I would have to argue that the electric car has the potential for nearly zero maintenance. Brushless motors that might require bearing replacement after some ungodly number of hours.

Yes, the old fashioned slow and careful way is going by the side of the road as we learn to drive through everything. I call it the "buy it now" mentality.

I come across as highly pessimistic, but even I have great optimism. But only if we decrease population dramatically.

Lately I've been thinking that the way things might go is logically backwards from where they came. The horse. Haha. I'm not kidding. But that opens my pessimistic door. Who has the land for a horse? Who has the knowledge? We've backed ourselves into a dark corner. We are dependent now, in a way that humans have never known. All we need for grave disaster is to fall out of the unnatural equilibrium we are maintaining.

[Greyskye]

14. Air conditioning

The Prius uses an electric air conditioning system. The IC portion of the engine does not need to run to have the AC running. You can actually leave the car in 'ON' mode, with the doors locked. The system will run the AC to keep the car at the desired temp, only running the IC occasionally in order to recharge the batteries.

[Solo_in_MD]

15. Look at the power requirements of that AC unit and its overall effectiveness

then look at the typical battery capacity of an electric car to see what it will do to the range. If you still think its viable, then set your location to the non coastal southwest, lets say Yuma, AZ. It takes a lot of energy to create air conditioning and its not a very efficient process. Designers are working on it, but again, Sir Issac is being a PITA

[Greyskye]

16. oh i agree

that it's a big hit to the efficiency. Just pointing out that there are automotive electric air conditioning solutions out there. I agree that it's not ready-for-prime-time, but as you say, they're working on it.

[lfairban]

19. Not to quibble, but . . .

. . . Newton was responsible for the three laws of motion.

According to Wikipedia, the first law of thermodynamics, the law of conservation of energy, was first laid down by James Prescott Joule.

You do bring up an important point, that the electricity causes pollution where it is generated. Pollution from power plants is a another great big issue that you shouldn't get me started on.

From an economical standpoint, if electric cars or hybrids were not cheaper to operate, I doubt so many people would be interested in them.

The geopolitical argument for electric cars is that the gasoline must come from oil, which is why many believe we are in Iraq.

I think that you have too quickly dismissed electric or hybrid vehicles because of an overly simplistic analysis. Cars with gasoline engines must carry around the means for turning the chemical energy into mechanical energy, the engine weighing several hundred pounds. Then you need several hundred pounds of frame and body to support it. Now, to get one 150 lb. person five miles to work, you need to get about a ton of material in motion. When the light turns red, you must dissipate all that kinetic energy, turning it into useless heat.

With an electric or hybrid, you can use regenerative breaking recovering some of the energy, especially useful in stop-n-go traffic.

There are a bunch of engineering technical considerations that I am not going into further.

[Canuckistanian]

22. They're still far more efficient and clean

Even considering how the electricity is generated.

No one is claiming that electric cars eliminate pollution.

Watch "Who Killed the Electric Car". There are details there.

[Strelnikov_]

17. PHEV w/ 20 MI. EV Range Would Provide Energy Independence

PHEV development is continuing our energy policy of trying to drill a 6” hole with a 3’ auger. We don’t need 100 mi. EV range PHEV’s ten years from now, we need 20 mi. EV range PHEV’s today.


Avg. PV usage ~ 12,000 mi/yr. ~ Say 46 mi./dy (PV~personal vehicle)

@ 20 mi. EV, 50 mpg ICE mode, ~ 88.5 mpg equivalent

Current PV liquid fuel consumption ~ 9.23 M bbl/dy @ 20.6 mpg

Proposed PV PHEV liquid fuel consumption ~ 2.15 M bbl/dy @ 88.5 mpg


2.15 M bbl/dy places our consumption within the range that can be achieved with corn ethanol.

2005 corn production @ 11.112 x 10⁹ bu @ 2.65 gal/bu wet milling ~ 1.83 M bbl/dy ethanol

With wet milling, 70% of human food value remains, so it is NOT food or fuel. Process energy (70%+ of ethanol production energy input) can come from renewable resources (wind) and co-generation.


So, a 20 mi. PHEV more or less eliminates PV petroleum consumption. That leaves 11.28 M bbl/dy, of which 2.05 M bbl/dy is imported. Electrification of the train system, movement of freight from OTR trucks to trains, production of biodiesel, and ramping up of some CTL capacity would easily eliminate this deficit.


So, there’s the molasses, and here comes the sulfur.

All of the above will take 10 years+ lead time. Problem is, nothing will probably be done until the smash comes. And, it will be a smash.

As in the 18 M bbl/dy of Persian Gulf go-juice going offline practically overnight.

As in a 10 gal./mo. gasoline ration (or $12/gal. gas, take your pick).

As in a collapse of our economic system as the foreign banks use their capital reserves to outbid us on what is left of the petroleum export market.


Even if there is not a geopolitical induced smash, the conclusions of the Hirsch report, which noted we had a big hill to climb at a 2% depletion rate, indicates there will be a depletion induced smash since observed depletion rates seem to be running 6%+.


We needed to be working on this problem 6 years ago when it became apparent the Caspian basin was effectively a dry hole (relative to what the initial estimates for this basin were).

[EVDebs]

18. Average commute distance is 32 mile round trip according to ABC news article

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Traffic/story?id=485098&page=1

""Life for commuters can be heaven or hell. They report an average one-way commute time of 26 minutes (over an average distance of 16 miles). But the variance is huge: On the best days, the average commute is 19 minutes; on the worst days, 46 minutes. That means traffic, at its worst, can double the average commute time, adding 27 minutes each way.""

with EVs not idling on gasoline that means a HUGE gas savings.

Ave. commute distance may be less than ABC new's report however. This info from

http://npts.ornl.gov/npts/1990/fat/tab6_11.pdf

shows a 1990 10.7 mile, or 21.4 miles roundtrip distance.

[GliderGuider]

20. Be aware of where you use them

Their GHG emissions vary enormously from place to place:

How Much CO2 Do Electric Cars Produce?

Anyway, as loindelrio says above, we just ain't got that kind of time left. Cantarell is crashing by 25% per year, the North Sea is going down at 8%, the USA continues to decline by 3%, and now it looks like Saudi Arabia is losing 6% to 8% per year. We're out of time for fancy fixes.

[Sirveri]

21. 5k$ for an extra 25-50MPG?

It's 50 nominal, boosted to 50-80 hwy and 100 local. If I spend the majority of my time on the hwy that means about 25 MPG increase... If one way is 25 miles. Then I'm burning three gallons every three days normally or two gallons every three days with upgrades. Which means every 3 days I save 2.37 in gas (VA, Newport News, 23608). This means for my investment of 5k it would require 6329 days to recoup (6329 /3 *2.37$ =5000$). Assuming I didn't do any other driving. That's about 17 years(give or take a few months). Boost the gain to 100MPG from 50MPG and it becomes 4219 days, or 11.552 years.

Bottom line, at current fuel prices, this upgrade does not make feasible economic sense, as the cost would not likely be recouped over the life of the vehicle. If the price of the upgrade and/or the price of fuel increased and/or there was an even more dramatic increase in fuel efficiency, then this would be an economically viable solution. Fuel may very well go up in price in the near future due to a possible peak oil scenario playing out in Ghawar, Cantarell, Nigerian disruptions, Venezuelean boycotts, a potential conflict with Iran, etc... The price of the upgrade could also decrease if modern mass production techniques were to be employed and drove the price down. At 2k$ and a mileage gain between 25-50MPG(37.5 for my calc) at current fuel prices it would only require 5.77 years to recoup the investment, something that is within the feasible useable lifetime of the car. I don't expect major improvements to this technology to be forthcomming before hydrogen fuel cells come online, and thus don't consider that to be a viable potential event. If HFC's do come online, the gas hybrid electric might be a viable stepping stone, and the plug in feature would likely be included in order to recharge all the vehicles. However HFC's are a viable stepping stone to all electric cars, and thus hybrid vehicles would likely be short lived.

But that's just my opinion.

[gristy]

24. Well, I can build a car that runs on batteries only, and I recharge them at night

It gets infinite miles per gallon! :rofl:

[phantom power]

25. my bicycle makes plug-in hybrids look like gas guzzlers.