Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Houston Chronicle: TXU likely to order two new nuclear reactors from Mitsubishi.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 03:56 PM
Original message
Houston Chronicle: TXU likely to order two new nuclear reactors from Mitsubishi.
The number of nuclear-powered generators in Texas could triple in the next decade with several new projects in the works.

Expansions at the state's two existing plants — Comanche Peak south of Dallas and the South Texas Project near Bay City — took steps this past week when TXU Energy said it will likely buy two reactors from Mitsubishi for the Dallas-area expansion, and NRG Energy said it will work with a Tokyo utility as an adviser for two reactors at Bay City.

Illinois-based Exelon Energy has also said it is considering sites in South and East Texas for a new two-unit plant, while a private firm in Amarillo hopes to build two new nuclear units.

About 14 percent of the state's power, or 4,800 megawatts, came from nuclear-powered units in 2006, according to state power grid operators. The proposed project could add 10,600 megawatts of nuclear power to the grid as early as 2015. One megawatt can power up to 800 homes.

"Texas is considered very hospitable toward nuclear," said Craig Nesbit, a spokesman for Exelon. "It's shaping up to be one of the key states for the next generation of nuclear power plants."



http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4635953.html

I think it is against the rules for me to state obvious realities in connection with this story, so I'll just leave it at that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Embarrassing that we have to import this expertise and technology.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DODI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. AP1000 is coming! US Design US jobs!
To bad we don't have the forging capabilities that we used to, but maybe that industry will be reborn too.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Just read a presentation on the design.
At the end, they make an interesting comment: "if we don't build some soon, we will no longer be able to build any." Which reminds me of a similar comment made recently by South African officials regarding their aging nuclear experts.

Here's the presentation:
http://www.eng.tulane.edu/FORUM_2003/Matzie%20Presentation.pdf
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DODI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. This is pretty true -- it is an aging population in the engineering
group. The guys who designed the last plants are now in their late 50's and 60's -- and we need their experience and brains. Westinghouse is now blessed with CE engineers (CE became ABB, ABB Nuclear was purchased by BNFL which integrated us with W) as well as W engineers. They are taking advantage of that situation, which is a good thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I have a new friend who decided to become a nuclear engineer in the 1990's.
She mostly did it because she loved science but she told me that everyone treated her like she was crazy.

Nobody's laughing now.

We need to rebuild nuclear education in this country, and we need to start right now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Although Westinghouse is now owned by Toshiba...
US design, US Jobs, the Japanese run off with the cash. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DODI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Not really. I work for Westinghouse in CT . Toshiba is going
to expect a return for their HUGE investment, but it will benefit the economies in CT, PA, NH and TN -- especially in Pitt. Toshiba also had sell part of Circle Bar W to Shaw Group and several other companies to defray the debt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Of the 28 COL's filed in the United States, 16 of them seem to involve AP1000's.
This is according to the world nuclear website.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf41.html#App2

Of course ABWR in Japan have been demonstrated by actual building several times now, some with construction times well short of 5 years.

Not one AP1000 has actually been built, but to be frank, I'd love to see that change. I'd like to see hundreds of them built.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Will that be 4th generation high temperature Thorium gas cooled reactors?
...If they are, every state in the U.S. should build at least one of the same and by 2025 we'll see fusion reactors become commercially feasible as well giving the country virtually power independence from the rest of the world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. These will be Gen III reactors.
There is no time to wait for Gen IV reactors. Climate change will not start in 2025.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Do you have a pointer/link for the taxonomy of Gen I-II-etc reactors?
I really don't know what the differences are. I've seen reactors referred to as light water, heavy water, etc. but most of what I know is way out of date.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I will give a brief description for which I have time now and provide one link.
We may discuss it further if we have time.

At the dawn of the nuclear age, a rather large number of types of reactors were believed to be possible. Tests relevant to these types of reactors were conducted, and in a few cases, reactors were built and tested.

Factors that played a role in decisions about what type of reactors were to be built depended on subtle issues, most notably access to uranium resources and more importantly enrichment technology. At the dawn of the nuclear age, the US had a monopoly on enrichment and more or less denied even allied nations, including Britain and Canada - though both sent scientists to the Manhattan project - access to it. Thus other nations wishing to develop nuclear power needed to rely on reactor designs that are non standard today. The Gen I reactors - pilot scale plants all, typically with full power ratings of less than 100 MW (about 1/10th as large as Gen II) reactors were not standardized and reflected the need to avoid enrichment.

There are two ways to avoid enrichment. One was the excellent design selected in Canada, the CANDU heavy water reactor - using deuterated water - that can run off of natural uranium because of its high neutron economy. The other way is to use a graphite moderated reactor - the Chernobyl type or a design that is similar. Moderation is the process of slowing neutrons down until their speed is about the equivalent of thermal (Maxwell-Boltzmann speeds) of ordinary molecules at a given temperature.

Gen I: The first industrial scale reactor was the B reactor had Hanford. It operated for more than 20 years, produced no electricity and ran to make plutonium. The first grid integrated power reactors were British and Soviet. The British design was the Magnox reactor, which used graphite moderation and a magnesium fuel that was easily treated chemically to recover plutonium. This plutonium was designed to be recovered for civilian and military purposes. The United States Navy designed reactors that proved able to go commercial for power generation but were originally designed for submarines: Pressurized Water Reactors. Here the water was both moderator and heat transfer agent. The heat was transferred to a steam generator that actually turned the turbines. The first electrical PWR was essentially a landlocked submarine reactor - Shippingport. A fourth type of reactor, the boiling water, reactor BWR, simply used steam directly produced in the core to drive the turbines.

All of these reactors were Gen I in that they were small and not really standardized in any way.

Gen II began with the development of larger scale BWR and PWR and a few other types of reactors, in particular Gen II CANDUs. These reactors form the bulk of the world's present day fleet and were built in the 1970's. While they have been mostly reliable, some have been balky, and many had variable designs that responded to particular company demands as well as publicly driven "safety" modifications that were produced in an ad hoc way, sending construction costs through the roof in some cases. This lead to unclear costing and delays. Nevertheless, with a few well known exceptions, the reactors worked very well and with experience, became highly reliable and profitable.

The lessons learned in the Gen II program were incorporated into Gen III, given cheaper and yet stronger "defense in depth" approaches to reactor design. The most notable features are passive safety features (some exist in Gen II systems) that shut down the reactor automatically during excursions, rely on fewer pumps, stronger materials, modular construction parts and ease of assembly and disassembly. These designs draw on decades of experience. Graphite moderation was abandoned.

Gen IIIB designs, some of which are now available, are designed to have flexible fuel loadings and can burn many types of fuels, including those that are thorium based, plutonium based and even based with higher actinides such as neptunium and americium.

Gen IV reactors are designed for missions that have become apparent over the last 50 years: The need to use nuclear power to make fluid fuels is one such mission, non-proliferation another, high temperature process heat, another, and the consumption of materials sometimes called "nuclear waste" is another.

This presentation shows the idea: http://eurograd.physik.uni-tuebingen.de/ARCHIV/Vortrag/Zimmermann20060630.pdf

Slide 44 is a graphic attached to the various generations and their time lines.

Slide 51 is designed to show that by fissioning the higher actinides and plutonium, spent fuel need be stored only got 500 years to be less toxic than the uranium that formed it. (In other words, the blue line and red line material are burned to recover energy) and the long term radiotoxicity is eliminated.

Many other slides give details of nuclear engineering approaches.

Let me know if I can answer additional questions you may have.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thanks! D/l'ed the slide presentation; will peruse more thoroughly later.
Sounds like almost all of what little I know about reactors falls under Gen I or II.

Burning higher actinides is something I knew was possible in principle but didn't know if any work had been done on that (with a use-once-and-dispose mentality predominant years ago I doubt there was much thought given to it until relatively recently).

On even a quick look that timeline stood out -- hope the Europeans are going to do something soon, I'm not sure we're going to contribute our share.

Thanks for the great big info dump! :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-16-07 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Great news! K&R n/t
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. And the waste??????
store it in the state it's used please. See how nuke friendly then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You's prefer they keep burning coal
and dumping the waste in the air?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. No, I'd prefer the states that ok this type of energy
Edited on Sat Mar-17-07 04:16 PM by mitchtv
find a way to deal with the spent fuel where is is generated, and stop trying to export it on rail and highway. to dump in another part of the country. It's real nice energy if you can push the problems onto your neighbor. Texas sounds like a perfect place to store the spent fuel. I have nothing against reactors, there is just one nagging question, what to do with used fuel. It's all above my head, but I know one thing, mistakes can be disastrous.Your reply does nothing to aleviate my concerns. I just see bad decisions made in Texas being foisted off on others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. It is relatively easy to store spent nuclear fuel where it is used.
This has been the defacto solution that has been employed for 50 years in the generation of nuclear power and it has lead to zero loss of life.

Now. You are using a computer. If it is fossil fuel powered and, unless you live in Vermont it is, please tell me what part of your yard is dedicated to storing dangerous fossil fuel waste.

It is rather absurd that the only form of energy that generates the question "what about the waste?" is precisely that form of energy which has failed to kill anyone with the waste.

The so called "waste" problem is trivial in the nuclear case, but as the existence of climate change so readily demonstrates it is non-trivial for any form of energy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. "trivial" unless you live near Yucca Mt
or the Colorado river
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. No, it's trivial there too.
Dangerous coal waste is non-trivial everywhere on the other hand. Dangerous coal wastes kills Americans regularly and contantly in the majority of states in the union.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Oct 17th 2024, 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC