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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 11:45 AM
Original message
Peak oil versus global climate change
If we're running out of oil, how is that a bad thing? Won't that put a natural cap on the amount of carbon from oil we can spew into the atmosphere?

:shrug:
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. From that source, yes
But we have only used 1/2 of the oil reserves up (that is what peak oil is about). Plus once the oil gets scarce, there is more incentive to use Coal, which is worse.
We can easily keep screwing up the world for a few more centuries at ever increasing rates if we choose to do so..
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. BBC column from yesterday: End of oil heralds climate pain
-- It is mathematically impossible that peak oil will solve climate change.

Although oil is the biggest single source of energy-related greenhouse gases, coal and gas combined are bigger still, and the expected growth in their emissions would overwhelm any reduction from oil.

As I demonstrate in The Last Oil Shock using the International Energy Agency's "business-as-usual" forecast, even if oil production peaks in 2010 and immediately starts to fall at 3% a year, total emissions would still rise by 25%, reaching 32 billion tonnes in 2030.

Yet by that time, we need to be well on the way to at least a 60% cut in emissions.

In fact peak oil could even make emissions worse if it drives us to exploit the wrong kinds of fuel.


more -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6505127.stm

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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. We're not running out of petrol fuels...
...just cheap sweet crude. Peak oil is an incredibly and artificially narrow economic model that is constrained so as to make it seem far more severe than it will actually be in any properly generalized economic analysis. We are already approaching a price plateau that would effectively eliminate most of the serious consequences of peak oil and the economy has plenty of time to transition.

As another data point, the majority of the CO2 from burning hydrocarbons does NOT come from crude oil products (certainly not in the US) but from coal and natural gas which don't even figure into the peak oil equation. If we eliminated all fossil fuel transportation in the US tomorrow (which no one is remotely suggesting), it would have less of an effect on CO2 emissions than if we simply converted to non-fossil fuel power (nuclear being the primary viable option here).

So to answer the question, we could burn hydrocarbons for a couple more centuries at our current rate. Here's to hoping we don't need to.
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Is there any hope
for more nuclear power plants to be built in the states?
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. "incredibly and artificially narrow economic model"
In other words, very libertarian.
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Libertarian has nothing to do with it.
And by "libertarian" you really mean "anarcho-capitalist", which are two different things. This is economics (read: mathematics) not ideology. The Peak Oil model has been unrealistically parameterized in order to generate the seemingly disastrous result, but no competent economist would think the assumed parameterization reflects reality. The model is only accurate insofar as you accept the constraints of the model as reflecting reality. It is just another disasterbation scam to bilk people out of their money -- nothing new under the sun. The economic perspective of many libertarians may or may not make this obvious. Any reasonably bright anarcho-capitalist would not make this mistake, if that label sticks at all.

As a tangent on the anarcho-capitalist thing: The anarcho-capitalist model is mostly optimal for human markets and provably so; it requires gross ignorance of economics and mathematics to even suggest otherwise, either in theory or in practice. Asserting otherwise is no different than the arguments of the creationists or global-warming deniers. However, notice I said "mostly optimal". Under some relatively narrow conditions (and quite narrow insofar as it applies to human societies), one can prove that the presumption that the free market maximizes utility is false and that a more socialist like model will produce better results. The irony is that I have never seen or met a person who objected to anarcho-capitalism that was not completely ignorant of where that model comes up short, making ignorant and invalid arguments against free markets when perfectly valid arguments exist under some conditions.

Most libertarians are not true anarcho-capitalists, as most support some limited regulation. In that sense, they are mostly correct insofar as the "limited regulation" is deftly applied.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. "The anarcho-capitalist model is mostly optimal for human markets and provably so;"
Edited on Sat Mar-31-07 02:18 PM by loindelrio

"it requires gross ignorance of economics and mathematics to even suggest otherwise".



Bah . . why bother.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalist

Anarcho-capitalism (also known by other names, most frequently as free-market anarchism<1> or simply market anarchism) is a form of individualist anarchism * that advocates the elimination of the state, the provision of law enforcement, courts, national defense, and all other security services, by voluntarily-funded competitors in a free market rather than by taxation, the complete deregulation of nonintrusive personal and economic activities, and a self-regulated market. Anarcho-capitalists argue for a society based in voluntary trade of private property (including money, consumer goods, land, and capital goods) and services in order to maximize individual liberty and prosperity, but also recognize charity and communal arrangements as part of the same voluntary ethic.<2> Though anarcho-capitalists are known for asserting a right to private (individualized/non-public) property, non-state common property can also exist in an anarcho-capitalist society.<3> For them, what is important is how property is acquired and transferred; they believe the only just way to acquire property is through voluntary trade, gift, or labor-based original appropriation, rather than through aggression or fraud.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.


My . . My . . My . .
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Comprehension difficulties at many levels I see...

I never claimed to be an anarcho-capitalist (or even a libertarian), but I made a general observation about reality in a discipline that I happen to be thoroughly competent at. Unlike many, I do not deny reality because it is inconvenient. Honestly, I am very uncomfortable with some of the necessary consequences of the mathematics, but then creationists are also very uncomfortable with evolution. Oh well. Nobody talked to me when deciding the laws of our universe.


I'll make a very simple point: If you could cheat economics you could also cheat thermodynamics, as they are derived from the same mathematical theorems. A lot of what passes for progressive "economics" is literally indistinguishable from a perpetual motion machine in physics. It would be great if such things were possible, but reality doesn't seem to support it. Of course, the corollary is that if someone *did* invent a true perpetual motion machine, it would mean that economics (and a hell of a lot of math, including most computer science) is invalid.

An enlightened and intelligent discussion would be how to best support progressive ideals based on good economic models would be a better approach than pretending like the universe conforms to our personal desires. There is plenty of room in economics for progressive ideas that do not require willfully ignoring the harsh and unavoidable realities of economics.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'm interested in the arguments you are making, and I'm wondering if you can give examples
from the realm of environment/energy about both a success of "traditional" economics, a failure of "traditional" economics, a success of "progressive" economics, and a failure of "progressive" economics.

It's all a little abstract for me. Also, feel free to make up examples if you don't have ready access to the numbers for actual cases.

Welcome to DU and to the E/E board! :hi:
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Books could be written
It is a really big subject, and in some areas (like environmental policy) I have written ad nauseum about how both sides of the issue are trying to swim upstream economically in terms of their policy proposals. Optimal economics is ultimately about maximizing overall efficiency in all dimensions, something that as a concept is a natural bedfellow of the environmentalist movement. Or at least it should be. More efficiency means less waste and less resource usage and less pollution of all types.

What happens in practice is that we never realize the efficiencies that could happen for many reasons, some of which are simply fictions of the legal system. For example, the legal framework of many countries still presume that many "externality sinks" have infinite capacity (think CO2 in the atmosphere) when they are in fact a finite commodity and therefore have a market value greater than "free" that is not being charged. Of course, to "charge" for them someone has to own them (maybe governments) and the market should ideally be diverse. On the flipside, you have cases where the legal framework presumes that some resources are infinite in supply; a good example of the kind of mess this can make is the situation with water rights in the eastern US which has historically tacitly presumed infinite supply, which is creating all sorts of legal headaches now as that becomes very apparently not the case (west of the Rockies, water rights have always been treated as a finite commodity). This is essentially a variant of the "tragedy of the commons" effect in economics in which a very large but finite resource is presumed infinite. Add on top of this subsidies and regulations, both of which severely reduce efficiency by misrepresenting the true relative cost of something. Note that the problem with regulations is not their use as a mechanism to account for externalities but the fact that most regulations are very poor at representing the cost of externalities in the price of a product and are prone to political manipulation, thereby making a product either more or less competitive than it should be as an unintended consequence.


This is all rudimentary practical economics and all these problems are very evident in many parts of the marketplace e.g. energy. Right now, the government (read: taxpayers) pick up much of the cost of these externalities and the market is heavily distorted by subsidies and regulation in any case even if you discount the externalities. Straightforward cost-accounting standards that took into account things like finite externality sinks that are being exploited and rolling back *all* the subsidies would allow regulations to be greatly reduced (just hold them to accounting standards) while have a net effect that is almost certainly superior to the current situation and eliminates the vast majority of mechanisms by which companies and politicians game the system. Which is part of the problem: politicians gain an enormous amount of leverage and cash by being able to manipulate markets in these ways.

Things like the Kyoto protocol were utterly insane from an economic standpoint if the nominal goal was to reduce carbon emissions, since it gave very marginal benefit at extremely high cost. Achievable and inexpensive solutions -- low cost, high impact -- such as aggressively migrating from fossil fuel electrical power would slash overall emissions in half with that one move, and it would have a modest one-time fixed cost. I want results, and I want them as inexpensively as possible; regardless of how many lives are saved by reducing emissions, which is uncertain, it is absolutely certain that the economic opportunity cost will cost a huge number of lives elsewhere that we also must include in the big calculus. Economic efficiency saves lives just as much as mitigating climate change does, it just is not as "obvious" in the sense that a catastrophic loss is even if the people are just as dead.



On the topic of the environment, I think the vast majority of the Federal lands in the western US would be in far better shape if they were in private hands. In that part of the country, people have one of three relationships to the vast expanses of land. They own it personally, they manage it for the government, or they borrow it from the government for private purposes. The further removed the user is from ownership, the worse the environment is treated in practice, which is consistent with economic theory. Note that by Federal land I am not talking about National Parks, I am talking about the vast expanses of land managed by the Department of Interior in various guises (usually BLM, NFS, or EPA) that have no significant official function. The majority of the land in the West falls under this category.

The worst treated land in the West, from an environmental standpoint, is the mining land leased from the government. Since the mining companies do not own it, they can trash it and leave it. Most of the regulations pertaining to that leased land are hopelessly broken and for various reasons are largely unfixable. By comparison, privately owned mining land is often in much better shape because the owner is ultimately responsible for it, has an economic interest in it, and is not able to abdicate responsibility simply by walking away in any case. The government management of the western lands actually has a very spotty record, for two basic reasons. First is that the many of the people responsible for managing the environment are terribly ignorant of western US ecology and make egregious policy decisions based on that; where my ranch is in Nevada, the DoI people responsible for making decisions on projects and land-use are largely fresh college graduates out of New England who are completely unfamiliar with the mountain West. Quite a number of infamous die-offs and land destruction has occurred as a consequence, and it is far more common than most people imagine. Second, a lot of the people in the government simply do not care in any case and are there to collect a paycheck and there is no relationship to the environmental state of the land they manage and their compensation or jobs. Things that are regularly done on private lands to keep the ecosystems healthy (no one likes their land going to crap, and that requires a healthy happy wildlife population) are not done on the government land simply out of apathy. Private land is frankly the healthiest environmentally of any land in the West, mostly because the people that own much of that land understand the local ecology very well simply through experience with it and they have a personal vested interest in not seeing their land destroyed. For example, one of the cornerstones of the high desert ecosystem are "top grazers", without which the wildlife populations shrivel up and disappear in a kind of trickle down pattern. This role is currently filled by free range cattle, and used to be filled by bison. One of the primary causes of the catastrophic loss of pronghorn antelope habitat was the revocation of range leases for cattle; pronghorn are dependent on the existence of top grazers for their food supply.

This was one of the more famous cases of bad govt land management. The DoI had few antelope on their lands, so to "protect the herd", they kept seizing private ranch lands by eminent domain with sizeable antelope populations. Shortly after the ranches were shut down, the antelope moved to the next private ranch. Wash, rinse, repeat many, many times before someone got a clue, but not until long after a lot of ill will was generated because the DoI had been informed repeatedly as to why this was happening. There was another incident near where much of my land is where they sterilized an entire lake of many species of rare trout in an obviously flawed effort to expand the territory of another rare trout. Unfortunately, these kinds of mistakes are all too common.


Oh yeah, I own vast tracts of undeveloped wilderness in the mountain West, much of it old growth that hasn't seen a fire in a very, very long time. Other than letting a couple ranchers out of San Francisco I know run their cattle through there to keep the other critters happy and control fuel load, I keep the land in its natural undeveloped state. I am a bit of a conservationist, and it allows me to sequester more carbon in a year than I will emit in many lifetimes (I give my friends free rides on their carbon emissions :-). I have a lot of experience with environmental policy on many levels and first-hand, with an academic background (chemistry and chemical engineering, albeit unused) that adds some depth.


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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Books have been written, and I've read some of them.
:D

I've been pondering lately the proper role of the state versus private industry in energy policy. It took me a long time to become a fan of capitalism, and it's still an uneasy relationship in some ways. It's like democracy: appalling until you consider the alternatives. ;)

Right now I am thinking that the ideal situation is allowing private industry to develop the technology under the framework of government regulations. For example, here in California we recently defeated a bond measure to fund r&d into so-called alternative energies. I don't think the government is going to do the best job of increasing efficiency of existing technologies, such as PV. I think that's better done under a market system where there is maximum incentive to provide the cheapest, most efficient product. Theoretical sources such as fusion are a slightly different matter, where no venture capitalist is going to pour buckets of money into something that will take 20 years and may or may not have a remotely marketable product at the end. The internets and GPS technology are good practical examples of areas where some initial government input has resulted in awesome technologies that are getting better every year under businesses looking to make a profit.

However, with energy, you've also got the aforementioned high externalities, specifically externalities that are difficult to quantify. Burning coal to run your factory like they did back in the 1800s is simple, crude, and cheap, but it's also highly polluting, so that's why we don't do it any more. The corporate masters did not voluntarily give up this easy energy source, but they were forced to do so by the government. Corporations will never factor in externalities that they can dump on the government/public unless they are forced to. This, to me, is the proper role of government. The wise government will create an environment that fosters innovation. The bill recently passed in California mandating that utilities get their energy from clean sources I think is an example of good government (and not only because it has brought in a lot of work to my company :+ ).

I agree with selling off most of the BLM's holdings, but only if there is a conservation easement of some sorts as part of the deal. I don't want to see any more tract houses sprawling out over the desert.

So are you opposed to all subsidies, or just some? 'Cause I'm a Californian, and I could see a few outcomes of taking away all subsidies, both good and bad.
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. We are pretty much on the same page
Long-term pure science research really is the domain of the government as a practical matter. Hell, that is one of the areas where the private sector does not readily pick up the mantle (though it was less the case a century ago -- some private sector science and engineering research has been regulated out of existence). You will hear no complaints from me on this matter. Doubly so because pure research is so inexpensive in the big scheme of things in the American economy. We can afford to pay for a lot of that kind of thing, especially if we aren't wasting that kind of money on nonsense. Say what you want about it, a lot of really good medical and technological research has come out of DARPA, one of the few government agencies willing to fund "blue sky" private sector research. I actually live in Silicon Valley and do a lot of work in the pure research space, though admittedly most of the best research work is privately funded for profit.

As for the BLM land in the mountain West, the Federal government continues to use eminent domain and other methods to remove private landowners. The amount of privately held lands shrinks every year. In all honesty, I am extremely sympathetic to their plight. It could be me next, and they have done absolutely nothing wrong or objectionable to deserve that treatment. No one wants to build suburbs out there. Outside of the NYC corridor, the mountain west is the most urbanized region of the United States and that is not likely to change any time soon whether or not the land is available. I have seen many tracts of private land ruined by eminent domain to no good end and to the benefit of no one. The amount of privately managed land shrinks every year, and to the detriment of the environment in my experience. The landowners in those parts are true conservationists, liberal in many ways, and really decent folk. After buying all that land, interacting with the Federal agencies out there, and getting to know the people and the culture, I have developed a certain appreciation for why they despise and do not trust the Federal government. Most of them have been harmed or treated badly by the Federal government, and at least in the areas my lands are in, the people are frequently expats from the most liberal parts of the US. Democrats looking to get away from things and back to nature move out there and get crapped on; there is a reason third parties are stronger out in those parts than any other place in the US. I hate to say it, but the Federal government brought the Sagebrush Rebellion upon itself. To their credit, the western states are generally very active in protecting their citizens from this to the best they can.


I am obviously not absolutely against subsidies since I strongly support research funding, much of which today is effectively a subsidy of private industry research. Subsidies that drive research have a lot of benefits. Subsidies that are reactions to rent-seeking behavior on the part of established industries, not so much. Subsidizing the production of commodities (like corn) of profitable multi-billion dollar companies is the kind of subsidy I don't have in mind as being necessary, but there is an awful lot of subsidies like that. At the same time, my experience as a major landowner in the western US has left me truly appalled at what passes for environmental stewardship in the Federal government. I was not always so negative about this, but I've seen too much and across too many administrations to think it is a feature of a particular administration. The Clinton administration was every bit as bad as Bush in this regard.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. "I never claimed to be an anarcho-capitalist (or even a libertarian)"
From your profile:

Atheist, libertarian, entrepreneur, and conservationist, not necessarily in that order. I build and improve civilization for fun and profit.

"Comprehension difficulties at many levels I see"

I agree. You seem to have difficulties on many levels, not the least of which being honesty.
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Such insightful and scintillating rebuttal...
...from someone unable to demonstrate their point in the first place, even at an elementary level. I'm here for some adult conversation, something you are apparently incapable of.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Oh, I am fully capable of engaging in honest adult conversation
Edited on Sat Mar-31-07 09:50 PM by loindelrio
I just have no interest in discussing what you are selling.

Economic Libertarianism has never worked, never will.

That is, unless one considers concentration of wealth in the hands of a few as the ultimate goal, then it is definitely the system of choice. Not really very progressive though. And since this IS a progressive discussion forum . .

And it is interesting that the person who is carping about adult conversation is the one throwing out the insults.

Typical.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. This is the war room, you can't fight in here!
:o

No, seriously, let's let the n00b share his opinions, and if we disagree with the n00b, let's rationally rebut his points.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Yea, you're right. n/t
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Do you know why?
Economic Libertarianism has never worked, never will.

That is, unless one considers concentration of wealth in the hands of a few as the ultimate goal, then it is definitely the system of choice. Not really very progressive though. And since this IS a progressive discussion forum . .



Do you know why wealth gets concentrated in the hands of the few and what causes it? It is not a mystery to economists, and there are libraries worth of literature on this subject. The solution to this problem is really quite simple, and is describable in a few relatively trivial mathematical functions. It should not surprise you that some of the best work in this area has been done by overtly socialist economists, though I'm sure you will not like their prescription. You apparently do not care about results, only the methods; fools are prone to such things. If "progressive" meant believing in creationism and perpetual motion machines, would you still drink the Kool-Aid? One thing is clear, and that is that you are not competent to discuss the technical aspects of the topic.

No, I want to spread the wealth as evenly as is possible to as many people as possible. I want to eliminate the economic elite. You apparently are indifferent to that goal, only being interested in toe-ing some random anti-intellectual ideological line. Have fun. One can find ignorant mouth-breathers willing to subscribe to any idiotic position, but that does not change the facts. Those who refuse to acknowledge reality rarely do anything of note, and more often than not are remembered for nothing more than their insanity.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Hey, the same goes for you too!
:o

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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Well, I *am* insane
I have no better way to explain the number of hours I work to my partner. It comes with the territory. :P
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. word
:P
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Eclipsenow Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
39. Yes but.
It just sounds like so many words Vulture.
I am fairly middle ground "liberal" and think there are some places for fair-sized to "big" government, and other areas where we just let the market do it's thing.

But what do we have in peak oil?
An intersection of both economics and physics, resource availability and resource constraints, geopolitics and mass-psychology. It's just too big.

If anything, one of the closest "spark-plugs" between the necessary disciplines was Robert Hirsch, a DOE Sponsored energy-economist, who wrote the Hirsch report and concluded that we needed 20 years warning to really seamlessly transition to the next big thing... and what was that? What was his solution? What should we have been ramping up for 20 years to seamlessly drift from oil into...... Coal to liquids! He seems dubious or dismissive of Global Warming. Coal to liquids in old fashioned inadequate out of date Internal Combustion Engines was going to guarantee the American way of life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirsch_report

For how long, with another exponential explosion into coal use?
If we accelerate coal use too much, "peak coal" could hit in 10 to 20 years!
http://eclipsenow.blogspot.com/2007/07/coal.html

Then if we hit peak coal with electricity AND transport dependent on coal, well, that's game over.

Generic comments on why peak oil cannot be fixed by market demand.



1. Governments have already interfered.
The government has already picked the winners!

∑ Instead of rail, governments have built a massive interstate highway and road system. Road construction has got to be one of the grandest subsidies governments have ever handed out for the use of one product, oil.
* Governments give incredible, multi-billion dollar direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. Also hundreds of millions go to researching clean coal technologies while only a fraction of it is spent on renewable energy research.

* As for nuclear, it would NEVER be competitive on a market basis if it were not for truly huge government subsidies allowing the nuclear providers to “externalise costs”. I’d much prefer they subsidized Solar Chimney’s and then we’d be away into a truly sustainable energy supply.

* Herman Scheer of the World Renewable energy council points out that normal market forces have huge players — the coal, gas, and oil industries — grid locking the system with a centralized energy production mode. That is, the whole paradigm is about the mining and delivery of one product, coal, to the power plant, and then sending that power down thousands of km’s of electric cable. He recommends that governments legislate a guaranteed by-back of home based solar or wind energy onto the grid, so that major utilities give a discount or even pay me back for my solar power if I contribute more than I use.

Think about this: we could theoretically move everything by rail and tram… that is, electricity. It could be subsidized by government as a public works program, and then we would be not in the mythical “hydrogen economy” but the much cheaper and more feasible electron economy. Everything would be electric. (The cost of converting electricity into splitting water for hydrogen, and then back to electricity through a merely 50% effective fuel cell is 4 times more energy than if one used the electricity directly in an EV in the first place.)

2. Wrong information
The other comment to make is that markets cannot work if they have the wrong information. Oil is a finite resource about to drastically change in nature. It is moving from an ever increasing supply of easy to mine sweet oil to an ever decreasing supply of difficult to mine sour oil. Yet the oil companies and energy agencies have (mostly) been in denial about an early peak. Economists have just assumed that as demand increases, the markets will just increase supply… without really consulting the geologists, physicists, and energy economists like Robert Hirsch. EG: When asked by the Australian Federal peak oil enquiry, the former head of our resources bureau — ABARE — explicitly stated that he had NOT considered the geology of peak oil as he made his price projections because “Nobody asked him to.” I was very angry because when it comes to our most important resource, “the dog at my homework” is not good enough!

3. Long lead times and a new financial system
Energy systems have long lead times in developing and implementing infrastructure. Our whole civilization is based on cheap liquid fuels. It is addicted to the stuff, and addicted to GROWTH in the supply of the stuff. We have to invent a “stable state” economic system that can be maintained without ever increasing exponential growth in the number of consumers and the number of products consumed per consumer, because without an ever increasing supply of oil to back it, it just is not going to continue like this! Our whole financial system will have to be tinkered with to get this just right, because currently if it is not growing it is shrinking, jobs are being lost, etc. Growth is good, shrinking is “bad” and means recession. Problem is, exponential growth in a finite world is simply impossible.

4. National security
There is nothing that can replace cheap oil in the timeframes needed. City design and planning is a government responsibility — without oil our current city plans are radically dysfunctional. It’s going to affect everything we do. It is so serious that an oil crisis is often consulted with the military. It is better thought of as serious as a foreign invasion.

Now imagine that enemy marines and tanks have just been spotted heading for our shores, but the majority of us reply, “Let the markets fix it.” I know how extreme that sounds to someone new to peak oil, but read the Hirsch report.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. Peak Oil isn't about running out of petrol fuels
At peak, there will still be half of the available crude ever created still in the ground. The problem is that after peak, the amount pumped per year will steadily decline. At the same time, worldwide demand for oil will continue to climb steadily upwards. When demand exceeds supply, oil prices skyrocket.

An artificially narrow economic model isn't why the US peaked in 1970 and has produced less and less oil every year since then.
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Crude oil will matter less with time and price...
...which is one of the many ways the consequences of Peak Oil are based on a narrow economic model. Sure, the production of crude oil will decline at some point in the near future (though on a less aggressive schedule than some are claiming), but it is only one part of a complex market equilibrium. I do not think anyone disputes the reduced output part. The reason a Peak Oil disaster scenario will never materialize is that crude oil is merely a means to an end and therefore eminently fungible. We do not need crude oil, it just has been a historically inexpensive and readily available raw material that has only recently become expensive enough that a market shift is inevitable.

If we were talking about a resource that is not particularly fungible, like many of the platinum group metals, the consequences would be more severe. Fortunately, we seem to have a century or so of reserves for most heavy metals barring a radical change in usage, though ubiquitous use of technologies like fuel cells may create some supply pressures.

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. "A market shift is inevitable"
But a market shift to what? There are almost no alternative energy sources currently available that can replace even a fraction of oil's energy output. Hydrogen, solar, wind, none of it today adds up to more than a few percent of world energy needs. Nuclear power is the only non-fossil source that produces a significant fraction of world energy production, but whether or not we could scale up and build thousands of new nuclear plants in the next two decades is up for debate.
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
71. People will adjust to the prices by using alternative energy sources
Alternative ways of generating power, while they were uneconomical compared to cheap gas will become viable options if gas prices rise.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. If Peak Oil collapses the oil-based economy, yes
Our economy is based upon the concept of perpetual growth. It's why you hear commentators talking about this year's economic growth. It can't be flat and it damned sure can't be negative.

For decades when we've needed more energy all we had to do was pump more oil. The economy grew along with our energy consumption. When the year comes when we can no longer meet our growing energy needs, the economy will stop growing. And every succeeding year there will be less energy (in the form of oil) to drive the economy.

If the economy slows we will, as a side-effect, pollute less. However, if as other posters have noted we start using more coal this will instead drive up the amount of pollution.

And make no mistake: The remaining years of our lives will see a scrambling for any energy source. Once the panic truly sets in you will see bizarre suggestions (particularly from those who have denied the validity of Peak Oil).

It's a real pity because if we had good leadership I believe that the American people could re-invent themselves as a green, sustainable nation and still have a nice quality of life.
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heidler1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. IMO "Peak Oil" will have a positive effect on preventing some
climate change by pushing up the price of oil to the point that PV, nuclear, wind, hydro electric and other means of producing power will be competitive. I hopefully expect a revival of hydro electric projects, which environmentalists put a stop to. Some people's notion of beauty being natural canyons will have to take a back seat to the needs of more stored water and clean power generation.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Hydro is a nonstarter in California
not so much for aesthetic reasons but for fisheries and river health reasons.

We've also pretty much tapped out available hydro without doing anything crazy, like backing the Sacramento River up to the Oregon border or damming the last few free-flowing rivers in the State.

If they try to flood out the best trout river in the state (which they are proposing), there will be a lot of people with a lot of nasty things to say about that.
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heidler1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. IMO "Peak Oil" will bring about a massive change in many current
views even those in California. Nearly every adult, in California, owns and drives a car, but I'd guess less then 5% of adults fish. Oh by the way I'm a fisherman and lived in California 50 years.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
67. When California is given the choice
of fish or electricity for their food, I'm afraid the fish will lose every time.
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Actually, per capita energy use has been declining since 1970s.
At least in the US. The economy has been growing while per capita energy use has been *declining*, and for many decades now.

The problem, of course, is that the population has been increasing somewhat faster than per capita energy use has been declining, causing a net increase in energy requirements. Almost all the energy savings have come indirectly from a myriad of incremental technology improvements in the private sector; society finds a surprising number of subtle efficiencies on its own, and does so very inexpensively.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
33. But the overall energy demand has risen
There is a point of diminishing returns on increasing efficiency. While the US has made admirable strides in increasing energy efficiency on a per-capita basis, the total energy needs of this nation has continuously risen. According to the DOE, total energy consumption in 1973 was 75.708 quadrillion BTU; the total energy consumption in 2005 was 99.661 or an increase of 23.910 quadrillion BTU.

Future projections of energy usage are not comforting. A quarterly published for ExxonMobil shareholders called "The Lamp" had an article titled "A Revolutionary Transformation" in September 2003 that read, in part:
"We estimate that world oil and gas production from existing fields is declining at an average rate of about four to six percent per year. To meet projected demand in 2015, the industry will have to add about 100 million oil-equivalent barrels a day of new production. That's equal to about 80 percent of today's production level. In other words, by 2015, we will need to find, develop and produce a volume of new oil and gas that is equal to 8 out of every 10 barrels being produced today. In addition, the cost associated with providing this additional gas and oil is expected to be considerably more than what industry is now spending."


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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yes, except the timing is almost perfectly bad.
Peak fossil is going to start seriously causing havoc at right about the same time that climate change will be causing serious havoc. In other words, it won't arrive in time to prevent climate disaster, it will arive just in time to punch us in the kidneys while climate change is punching us in the solar plexus.

It probably would have been ideal if peak-fossil had happened about 50 years ago.

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lakeguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
18. coal will be next. nt
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
22. Coal to Liquids (CTL)
And as the politicians react to the demands of the electorate to maintain the Merican Way-O-LifeTM we will dig further and further into marginal fossil resources.

To replace a fossil energy source with an EPR of 20 (typical of current petroleum production) with a fossil source with an EPR of 2.5 (typical of tar sands/CTL using lower grade coal), we need to produce 58% more gross energy (and therefore 58% more greenhouse emissions) to provide the same amount of net energy available to do work.

Without societal transformation, peaking of oil, in the absence of recession/depression as others have addressed, will probably lead to an increase in greenhouse emissions.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. As an aside, I like the "American Way Of Life" (tm):
AWOL. :D
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. Exactly.
Which is why we need to ditch coal and natural gas ASAP. Forget what people drive, power plants alone account for the majority of the CO2 emissions in the US, and unlike transportation which has good engineering reasons for using hydrocarbon fuels there are few things that necessitate hydrocarbon fuels for power plants except perhaps politics.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-01-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. What do you think are the best ways of replacing fossil fuels?
'Cause building solar thermal plants in the desert is proving to be a headache. :P
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Ironically...
The US has the "Saudi Arabia" of geothermal fields in the Great Basin region (the mountain west roughly between southern Idaho and northern Arizona, inclusive). There are several geothermal power plants in that region when they can get away with it. The irony is that environmental activists have made it nearly impossible to put geothermal power plants on Federal land, and out in those parts almost all land is Federal land, so they install coal and natural gas power plants instead since you can squeeze those in on State and private land. A good geothermal well will put out something like 10MW at the turbine, 24x7 all year long while being very clean and inexpensive. The primary environmental objection is that you have to put a very sparse spiderweb of pipes (6-12 inch diameter typical) out in the desert for aggregating the output of the wells to a central turbine; you only want to put one well in the ground per 20-40 acres to keep adjacent wells from interacting. This has been determined to be aesthetically displeasing to jackrabbits or some such, because many of these are out in nasty unremarkable desert that no one ever visits anyway and they certainly don't endanger anything. Perhaps they find the coal plants preferable, but really it is just a cheap political bone in Washington DC, as there is very little overlap between the people pushing to prevent geothermal wells on Federal land in the Great Basin and the people directly affected by the Federal interference. I honestly don't see what the objection is since it is a nearly ideal environmentally friendly power source that just happens to be abundant in a region that is essentially ugly uninhabited wasteland. Insanity.


I would go for a two-fer, installing geothermal and solar. That way you can exploit the superior around-the-clock output of geothermal while using the superior insolation of the southwest deserts to boost output during peak hours. If people really object to the appearance of geothermal power, paper it over with solar panels and have the land pull double duty. (The only potential problem is that the environment might be corrosive to the solar panels -- these regions are covered in volcanic gas vents and sulfuric acid pools in addition to superheated steam and hot water.) In theory, you could power the entire US this way with plenty of room to spare.


Ideally, I would exploit geothermal and nuclear power right now since both are mature technologies and very environmentally friendly if handled correctly. At a minimum we should be shutting down the coal plants, and that alone would lead to a massive reduction in emissions. Solar is not quite there yet but it is getting better and you could reuse a lot of geothermal easements. Wind power is an inexpensive but marginal technology so I would only use it opportunistically. However, none of this solves the short-term portable power problem e.g. for transportation. The current best bet is clean diesel, which is still superior to gasoline-electric hybrids in terms of efficiency. Diesel-electric hybrids are already common in large format systems (for reasons having little to do with fuel efficiency in most cases), but they usually are not worth it in small formats.
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Eclipsenow Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. I'm with you on Geothermal anyway.
The Australian of the year, Global Warming expert Tim Flannery has written of a potential desert city concept that could be sustainable.

He calls it "Geothermia" and it boasts a hypothetical city of 100 thousand people living and working in the desert of Australia, with the most energy efficient transport grid etc, supplying all of Australia's electricity through a continent wide electricity grid.

http://tinyurl.com/26o938

Now personally, having followed what the big names in renewable energy are saying like Herman Scheer of the European union's renewable energy council, I think post-fossil fuel energy will be a mix of giant centralized systems like geothermal, solar thermal, hydro electric or Solar Chimney's (often called the "hydro-electric scheme of the land" because of their VAST size... 1km high, 6km wide, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower ).

But it will also be a mix of local decentralized power as well, the Solar PV on the roof, the solar hot water, the local river-hydro (micro hydro) etc.

All of this is technically possible, and the more local the energy source the more efficient, and the more efficient the more energy reaches the end user.

So here's the thing Vulture.

Laws must back this kind of change.

We should be trying to "discover" nega-barrels of energy, not mega-barrels. If there is no alternative energy that can do what oil does in transport as CHEAPLY as oil does it, then maybe that threatens our very city plan. And city planning is a government responsibility.

If suburban life is not sustainable in the post-oil world, then maybe government's should look at longer term solutions and gradually rezone land over the next 70 years.

"A normal city is changing all the time - buildings grow old and are replaced. Just look at a picture of your city fifty or a hundred years ago. If the average building life is 60 years, then the city changes at the rate of 1.6% per year.

I took as the basis for this scenario the average size of an average Swedish municipality - 36,000 inhabitants. I assumed that instead of building the houses on that same plot as the one demolished you build eco units on the periphery of the city, along the roads preferably. Then you start to ruralise at the same pace as the normal replacement rate. After 50 years, only ten percent of the city is left."
Folke Günther


http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/583
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. One word: zoning!
Seriously, we have zoned ourselves into the suburban mess, and it would radically improve energy efficiency if high-density mix-use zoning was allowed. People have to drive everywhere because things are zoned in most locales to make it impossible to do otherwise.

I'll just add that liberals have a lot to answer for in this regard, and I find it infuriating. I live in the San Francisco area, and in my city with its government completely dominated by left-wing Democrats they adamantly refuse to allow high density construction, forcing buildings to be no taller than four stories and mandating a lot of open space between buildings and scattered throughout the neighborhoods as part of their environmental aesthetic. Having anything that even looks like a commercial establishment is verboten anywhere near where houses are built because it is not quaint enough. In other words, strictly mandated suburban sprawl that in many ways is worse than your average suburbs because they have mandated so much open space among the houses. At the same time, these same good liberals aggressively exact punitive measures on anyone who dares to drive rather than taking other forms of transportation, ignoring that they were the very people who made it impossible to do anything but drive. And it isn't just here, I've run into this in many cities where nominally environmentally concerned city planners make rules and goals that are very obviously mutually exclusive in any kind of reality; they want their cake and to eat it too.


I love mixed use high-density zoning. It lets me walk everywhere, which I prefer to do anyway and not for any particular environmental reason. I currently live in the suburbs, and I walk almost every day to the grocery store which fortunately is only a half mile away and therefore walkable. In most parts of the suburbs, it would be a few miles each way. I know some people like their suburban sprawl, but at least give people like me the option of not living in it. As it is, I'm seriously thinking of moving to Seattle (which does have good high-density districts) to get away from the suburbs. Unfortunately in many parts of the country, Republican or Democrat, suburban sprawl is a strictly enforced dictate of the city planners.
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Eclipsenow Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. I am now SO with you on the Zoning, Vulture!
We would be on the way to solving both peak oil and global warming if we just changed zoning laws! I completely, and utterly, and passionately agree!

See my webpage at
http://eclipsenow.blogspot.com/2007/06/relocalize.html

I am SOOOO with you on that.


All the indications are that we need to plan for far less transport energy.

Instead of only searching for mega-barrels we should be looking for nega-barrels. We should negate our dependence on oil in the first place! Energy efficient cars will no doubt play a part, but the long term goal should be energy efficient cities. That's not as outrageous as it sounds. We simply allowing natural suburban home attrition and demolition rates to occur as normal. But instead of replacing the old suburban home with a new one, we rezone the lot according to the principles below. Over just a decade or two this can create positive feedback loops that reduce transport energy demand permanently.

Rezoning according to the 3 paradigms below gives us plenty of nega-barrels. If we use smart Eco-city, New Urbanism and even Rural Outpost designs, we can drastically reduce energy consumption while maintaining a high quality of life and modern convenience. All it takes is public imagination and dream-casting, political will, and a bit of hard work. Cities are always changing. Shouldn't we at least set up the rezoning laws that will ultimately solve both Global Warming and Peak Oil, let alone national energy security?

and later...

Virtuous cycles
The more we achieve in these directions, the more beneficial feedback loops will kick in, weaning us off oil faster and faster.

"But they can be redesigned, not over night, but steadily and with compounding beneficial interest."
Richard Register.

"A normal city is changing all the time - buildings grow old and are replaced. Just look at a picture of your city fifty or a hundred years ago. If the average building life is 60 years, then the city changes at the rate of 1.6% per year.

I took as the basis for this scenario the average size of an average Swedish municipality - 36,000 inhabitants. I assumed that instead of building the houses on that same plot as the one demolished you build eco units on the periphery of the city, along the roads preferably. Then you start to ruralise at the same pace as the normal replacement rate. After 50 years, only ten percent of the city is left."
Folke Günther

http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/583


I have already posted this elsewhere this thread, but just wanted to demonstrate that I really agree with you on this. Nega-barrels not mega-barrels. And it's a government responsibility, and it's up to us to create a massive cultural movement to give our government's "permission" to make these new laws.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. Don't mess with my desert.
You want to see a wasteland? Look at any sort of industrial farming. Corn, soybeans, cotton, wheat -- those are wastelands.

The worst wastelands on the planet are industrial feedlots and dairy farms. Great mountains of cattle, pig, turkey, and chicken shit...

10MW is not an adequate return for the effort and the environmental damage done. The situation is very similar to that of coal bed methane, it is a desperate kind of gleaning of little lasting economic value. I suspect any huge wave of investments in these sorts of geothermal plants would turn out badly, resulting in plants with a very short life and very large economic losses.

The "American Way of Life" is unsustainable by such diffuse means, and any less economic and energy intense lifestyle will be unlikely to have the resources to support such a complicated means of energy production.

The picture everyone should keep in their minds is this:



To support our current sort of lifestyles you need to be able to fire up these sorts of machines or you can't make drilling rigs, pipes, trucks, windmills, tractors, or any sort of the heavy machinery we take for granted.

If energy is is not available in vast quantities you won't want to waste what you've got on complex far flung schemes that are difficult to maintain. If you can't afford a tractor, you don't care about biofuels, instead you start to think about a horse or an ox, and a woodstove, and maybe a solar panel to charge your cellphone.

The more we pursue alternative energy schemes that can hardly support themselves, much less an energy intensive economy such as ours, the more likely it is our future will look like this:




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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Stunning.
"10MW is not an adequate return for the effort and the environmental damage done."


You are apparently very ignorant of geothermal power. Most high-quality geothermal is 5MW+/-3MW per well and a geothermal power plant aggregates multiple wells. The US is already the world's leading producer of geothermal power, and the largest sites can produce power in the gigawatt range. The only artifact is a very small gravel pad (about the size of a house lot) with a small-ish pipe coming out of the ground; both the impact and land utilization is very, very low. And what environmental damage are you referring to? This are often installed in areas that (duh) are covered in volcanic gas vents, acid pits, and assorted superheated hydrology features that don't support much life beyond bacterial mats and maybe pine trees (pine trees are largely immune to extremely acid environments -- landscape devoid of all plants except pines is a reliable indicator of a volcanic feature). And a small pipe is hardly a disruptive feature, just about any other human artifact would be at least as bad. Are you saying that Iceland is a monumental environmental disaster?

"I suspect any huge wave of investments in these sorts of geothermal plants would turn out badly, resulting in plants with a very short life and very large economic losses."

Pure ignorance. There are many geothermal power plants already in operation in that part of the country that have been operating continuously for decades. And there is room for many more. Not only are they some of the very cheapest power plants to build (minimal capital outlay), they also produce some of the cheapest, cleanest power possible, and the environmental footprint is one par with windmills. It doesn't kill critters, it is a closed loop system with no significant emissions (the condensed steam is pumped back into wells), and the power density can be very high. The only real drawback is that you have to put the power plant where the geothermal is, but in the case of the US we have a lot of choices for location.


It is both stunning and appalling that a nominal environmentalist would object to geothermal power. Can you name another power technology that has the power density of geothermal and low cost of implementation, that produces continuous reliable power 24x7, with no emissions and no significant environmental footprint? I did not think so.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Issues of scale again
Geothermal is one of those really nice energy sources that all environmentalists should embrace like a tree, just like wind and solar and tidal power. ABC - Anything But Coal.

However, I just took a quick look on the net. According to Wikipedia the world's supply of geothermal electric capacity is 9.3 GW. Quite nice. Unfortunately, the world's total electricity generation is on the order of 1700 GW, making geothermal yet another half-percent solution.

Within 15 years we are probably going to have to replace the energy of 8 or 9 billion vanishing barrels of oil per year, or 10% to 15% of our current primary energy use. While geothermal is good and necessary for small localized solutions, it has serious problems with scale.
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. It does not have to be that way.
"However, I just took a quick look on the net. According to Wikipedia the world's supply of geothermal electric capacity is 9.3 GW. Quite nice. Unfortunately, the world's total electricity generation is on the order of 1700 GW, making geothermal yet another half-percent solution."


Geothermal is a bit of an opportunistic power source, though the Japanese have been doing a lot of research on making it viable in far more areas than we would traditionally consider. It will always be a partial solution, but it can be a substantially bigger fraction than wind can be and it has better characteristics (like relatively reliable continuous output and decent density).


In theory, the western US has a geothermal carrying capacity that exceeds the needs of the entire US by orders of magnitude -- it is a very rich resevoir. Some energy intensive industrial processing (like drying vegetables) is done on top of small geothermal hotspots in the Nevada desert right now because the abundant energy is pretty close to free and the cost savings are worth the inconvenient location.

There are two major hurdles to exploiting it that have made it somewhat impractical. First is location, since there is not much at all out in that desert. Not an insurmountable problem, but an issue. The Reno/Tahoe/Carson area, for example, is surrounded by several geothermal power plants since the location is convenient. The second problem is that there has been significant resistance from some environmentalist factions to this, and since the Federal government controls most of this land it becomes Washington DC politics and it has hindered development. It has something to do with "despoiling a wilderness" few have seen, but that makes no sense because geothermal is very green and a power plant of some type will have to be built somewhere if not there. Instead, a lot of coal and natural gas plants are being built.


I agree that geothermal is not a total solution, but at least west of the Rockies (in both the US and Canada) it would be perfectly plausible to use geothermal to offset the fossil fuel power plants and maybe even ease some of the load on hydropower. The low capital costs of plant development would probably be offset by the cost of building additional transport infrastructure. Geothermal is already used in the west much more than most people know, but we could easily be exploiting far more than we do.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. OK, that position I agree with.
Edited on Mon Apr-02-07 08:58 PM by GliderGuider
There will be lots and lots of silver BBs brought into play over the next couple of decades. As long as they are deployed with a full understanding of their inherent characteristics and limitations, I have absolutely no problem with that. I only get worried when I think that people may be over-selling a technology and not exposing its particular weaknesses to the buying public. I think this has happened to a great extent with biofuels and photovoltaics, and that has made me hyper-skeptical of other green technologies as well.

If I do inherit my parents' 50 acres in the next 10 years, a ground source heat pump is the first planned addition.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. I find your words offensive.
Anyone who uses the phrase "ugly uninhabited wasteland" when referring to Western lands has zero credibility when speaking of environmental issues. Anyone who believes the land they are working in is a "wasteland" will be less likely to treat that land with respect.

I find your own ignorance of both environmental and economic issues "stunning and appalling."

Environmental and economic policies based on ideologies, and not on science, are what got us into our current mess.

The American West is littered with the bones of expensive mining and energy projects that were doomed from their conception by technological difficulties or outright fraud.

Uninformed boosterism of the sort that's been going on for more than 150 years in the West will not increase the rate at which geothermal power is implemented, it will only increase the numbers of fraudulent, environmentally destructive, and economically unsustainable projects.

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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Huh?
Anyone who uses the phrase "ugly uninhabited wasteland" when referring to Western lands has zero credibility when speaking of environmental issues.

I see a lot of "ideology", but your science and facts are lacking.

Most people would find tuff flats pretty ugly, and definitely uninhabited. These are (geologically) recent lava flows with a little bit of scrub and dirt on them. Not even pretty and interesting volcanic badlands. If you do find water out there (rare), it is usually toxic (salinity and acidity). There is a reason they want to dump nuclear waste there. I gather you have no experience with the Great Basin region of the mountain West, which is in fact almost entirely uninhabited. It is a mountainous region of varying aridness the size of Germany, and almost entirely inaccessible unless you have a 4x4 -- few people have even seen it. It is true that some of the geothermal power plants are in inhabited areas, such as the geothermal power plants in the Reno-Lake Tahoe-Carson City area.

Having actually lived across vast swaths of the mountain West for many years and knowing every nook and cranny of that region, I think I am qualified to ascertain whether or not an area is "ugly" or "uninhabited", since unlike most I actually have seen it and have a first-hand appreciation of it. I still have rather extensive landholdings (wildlands bought primarily for conservation purposes) in Nevada right in the middle of that region which are not ugly (but still uninhabited) and even then I have a really hard time objecting to the idea of putting a geothermal power plant on the "not ugly" land except for purely ideological reasons. I've seen many geothermal power plants up close and personal, and I fail to see what the objection is.

No, I am at least as qualified to opine about geothermal power in the western deserts as you are.



Uninformed boosterism of the sort that's been going on for more than 150 years in the West will not increase the rate at which geothermal power is implemented, it will only increase the numbers of fraudulent, environmentally destructive, and economically unsustainable projects.


What, specifically, is environmentally destructive and economically unsustainable about geothermal power? Where are these "energy project" graveyards in the Nevada desert? You keep waving you hands and making baseless assertions, but I haven't seen any concrete evidence that you even have the slightest clue about either geothermal power or the western deserts, never mind both together. The facts remain, there are no emissions, no toxic waste, negligible environmental footprint, it is sustainable, and the US has a ton of it. Iceland runs their island on it.


Oh well, it doesn't matter. Even despite the strong objections from the uninformed and clueless, the Federal government has been continuing to issue permits for new geothermal power plants to private parties. No one is asking you to pay for it, these are not research projects but commercial power plants that sell power to States like this one (California) too stupid to build enough of their own. Geothermal is a good deal for everyone and the environment.


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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. I've personally visited most of the places you've mentioned.
A good portion of my family has been mining and ranching the Western deserts for more than 130 years. A good portion of my wife's family walked here from Asia a long, long time ago.

I've personally visited most of the geothermal plants in California.

When I say "boosterism" I mean exactly that.

One of the great problems with geothermal plants is that every one of them must be custom designed for the local conditions. Every well has it's own chemistry and capacity which must be accounted for -- from fairly mild brines of 2000 ppm disolved salts, to very corrosive and machinary-clogging brines 100 times saltier than that. Many of the same criticisms that apply to one-off nuclear plant designs are applicable to geothermal plants, except with the geothermal plants there's really nothing you can do about that. Hopefully, with greater operating experience this will become less of a problem.

Geothermal plants might be the sort of thing to sell to unwary investors. Maybe a specific plant is a sustainable thing, maybe not. Geothermal companies that are not ethical will be tempted to dump their unsustainable or unstable plants.

A similar thing happened in the early development of the solar and wind energy industry, and it happens now. There are hillsides and rooftops all over California littered with dead wind generators and solar collectors that were the result of poorly thought out or fraudualant investment schemes. If you know anything at all about the mining industry in the west, you know that the vast majority of mining activity was never profitable to investors, and sometimes at great environmental costs.

Nevertheless, I generally support geothermal development. But I do believe since geothermal plants will not be contributing a substantial fraction of our electric power supply any time soon now, we must hold geothermal development to very high environmental standards and be wary of development that outpaces our engineering experience.



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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. Interesting point, but...
"One of the great problems with geothermal plants is that every one of them must be custom designed for the local conditions. Every well has it's own chemistry and capacity which must be accounted for -- from fairly mild brines of 2000 ppm disolved salts, to very corrosive and machinary-clogging brines 100 times saltier than that."


You raise an interesting point that contains some truth, but it is not actually relevant to geothermal power generation. Geothermal power plants operate on super-heated steam that comes out of the ground, often at 2-3x the boiling point of water, so there are no dissolved solids or brines involved. It is essentially dry gas under very high pressure. The primary nuisance contaminant is hydrogen sulfide gas, which is pumped back into the ground with the condensed steam in what is essentially a closed loop with no emissions. If they used some type of open loop then you would have an emission problem with hydrogen sulfide, but open loop geothermal power generation does not work because you run out of working fluid rapidly. Hydrothermal systems, which do have the problems you mention, and even low temperature steam systems do not have the energy density to be useful for electricity generation, though they do work well for heating.


It is true that hydrothermal systems eat drill rigs since they are frequently very corrosive to metals in multiple ways, and twenty years ago that would have been a problem. Nevada is the second most prolific gold producing region in the world (after South Africa, though that will change soon because South Africa is played out and Nevada is not) and so they do a lot of bore drilling for exploration. Traditionally, they avoid drilling hydrothermal systems when at all possible for precisely the reason you raise. Then, about fifteen years ago, the geology deposition models for gold changed and showed that there were many places they had previously not looked that should have gold and many of these were around active hydrothermal systems. Once the pay-off became worth it, drilling hydrothermal systems became an art that has substantially matured at least in Nevada because there was an incentive to do it.


As an interesting tangent to all this, when they started the last exploration boom (it happens every time theoretical models are significantly improved), they found a lot of something else: black gold. Most people do not even know that Nevada has oil, but the most prolific oil well on land in the world is in Nevada (20-30 million barrels from a single well) and anyone that has spent some time in the wilderness there has come across pools of crude and tar seeping out of the ground. Oil exploration in Nevada has always been spotty because very little is known about Nevada geology, and Nevada has a geology of unusual complexity. I have an acquaintance who is a geologist that specializes in oil exploration in the mountain West, and according to him they had to drill 70 dry wells on average before hitting one with oil in Nevada -- almost not worth the effort despite the quality of the wells when they found them. In the last few years, permits have been granted to open a number of new oil producing fields in Nevada on previously unknown resevoirs that were discovered when there was a gold drilling boom over a decade ago, particularly now that the price is so high. No one has any idea how much oil is in Nevada, but most knowledgeable geologists seem to think it is at least a few billion barrels, and potentially quite a bit more. In Nevada, gold deposition, hydrothermal, and crude oil are frequent geological bedfellows, which has strongly encouraged the development of drilling capabilities that can deal with that type of environment economically.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Even when you are drawing steam, the chemistry is still highly relevant.
The permeability of the rock surrounding your well is subject to change as you alter the pressure and temperature regimes of the system.

What is essentially high technology gleaning of more diffuse energy resources cannot maintain current patterns of U.S. energy consumption.

That's the crux.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. I spent the last 2 weeks in Barstow looking at a 20,000 acre site for a solar thermal plant
and believe me you.... there's a LOT of creosote scrub out there.

Much as I hate to call anything ugly, the desert around Barstow is some homely, homely land. I'm not opposed to taking part of a HUGH!!!!! land area/ecosystem and sacrificing it for the greater good. I'd rather see that area trashed than the red rocks of Utah, or the open sagebrush of the Eastern Sierra.

The whole time we were out there we saw a dead tortoise, a burrowing owl, some coyote tracks, two jackrabbits, some horned larks, and like, three lizards. In short, exactly what you would expect.

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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Barstow is relatively pretty.
"Much as I hate to call anything ugly, the desert around Barstow is some homely, homely land."


Barstow and Mojave are relatively pretty desert as such things go, and have a lot of wildlife. I like that kind of desert and am very comfortable in it. Some parts of central Nevada are much uglier and with a lot less living there; Barstow and Mojave geology is much better. Not like Craters Of The Moon up in Idaho, which is dead but cool, but the rolling dusty remnants of lava flows that you find in much of the west in a region with too little precipitation and too little temperature variation to break it down or to allow substantial plant growth. I love the mountain West and the desert wilderness, but there is not much to recommend some of the really nasty badlands in Nevada (which already has some geothermal power plants).

Which is really beside the point, since geothermal is a low-emission environmentally-friendly energy source. It is not like we are talking about powering Los Angeles by throwing radioactive baby seals into a mercury-operated woodchipper and dumping the waste into an Iraqi orphanage.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Barstow at least has the occasional joshua tree, if I remember
Edited on Mon Apr-02-07 11:17 PM by IDemo
the southern Idaho desert has sagebrush and cheatgrass. Lots and lots of cheatgrass.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. No Joshua trees, no cheatgrass.
Creosote, burrobush, a little cholla, some buckwheats, and rubber rabbitbrush.

For MILES.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. The site will be visible from the freeway
Visual impacts will probably be analyzed pretty closely. :P
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Ah, yes. We must protect the view from the freeway!
I've always enjoyed how they do this in forests. Lovely view along the highway, turn off the road a little ways and it's clearcut hell on earth.

:P indeed!
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. Pretty hard to do that with a brazillion acres of creosote scrub...
unless they put some fake-palm-tree cell phone towers in there. :hide:
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. I say we hide them behind fake rock formations.
Sort of like Big Thunder Mountain at Disneyland...
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Totally
Visual impacts: mitigated with the help of some 2x4s, chicken wire, and stucco! :patriot:
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
41. An article about the two movements ...
activism on global warming and peak oil activists, who belongs to each group, their primary goals and methods of attack - protest - spreading the word - was posted in this forum a few months ago. I spent this morning looking for it in my bookmarks and saved files. Alas I can't find it, it was a very good piece and made the various issue details and particularly the timing fit into place better than they had for me and made the point that both sets of activists should learn from each others methods and in fact don't necessarily find themselves at odds.

The point being that the sustainable practices both sets of activists would like to see would benefit everyone in many ways that would satisfy both sets of activists.

I'm sorry I can't find it to repost but perhaps this will spur someone else's memory.

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Eclipsenow Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Richard Heinberg on GW + peak oil
You might have been looking for this.

http://www.energybulletin.net/24529.html



Published on Tuesday, January 9, 2007 by Energy Bulletin
Bridging Peak Oil and Climate Change Activism

By Richard Heinberg
The problems of Climate Change and Peak Oil both result from societal dependence on fossil fuels. But just how the impacts of these two problems relate to one another, and how policies to address them should differ or overlap, are questions that have so far not been adequately discussed.

Despite the fact that they are closely related, the two issues are in many respects dissimilar. Climate Change has to do with carbon emissions and their effects—including the impacts on human societies from rising sea levels, widespread and prolonged droughts, habitat loss, extreme weather events, and so on. Peak Oil, on the other hand, has to do with coming shortfalls in the supply of fuels on which society has become overwhelmingly dependent—leading certainly to higher prices for oil and its many products, and perhaps to massive economic disruption and more oil wars. Thus the first has more directly to do with the environment, the second with human society and its dependencies and vulnerabilities. At the most superficial level, we could say that Climate Change is an end-of-tailpipe problem, while Peak Oil is an into-fuel-tank problem.

Because of this crucial divergence, the training and priorities of people who study one problem often differ from those of people who study the other. Most advocates for the Peak Oil concept—sometimes known as “depletionists”—are energy experts, economists, journalists, urban planners, or workers retired from the oil industry (usually geologists or petroleum engineers). Among climate analysts and activists there are more environmentalists, fewer energy experts, and far fewer retired oil industry employees. It is my experience that, when placed in the same room together, the two groups often talk past one another.

My own background is primarily as an environmentalist: I teach a college course on human ecology and have been writing about ecological issues for 15 years or so; at the same time, I find myself identified primarily as a Peak Oil activist, having written three books about the subject and having given something like 300 lectures on it. To me, head-butting arguments between the two groups as to which problem is more serious constitute a peculiar kind of hell, in that such arguments can only hamper the efforts of both groups in doing what we all agree is essential—averting environmental and human catastrophe. Nevertheless, disagreements and misunderstandings are already emerging for the simple reason that advocates on both issues are competing to persuade the public of the central importance of their cause.

Since such competitive disagreements are ultimately damaging to our broader collective interests, it seems important to devote some effort toward openly discussing the differences and similarities of the issues themselves, as well as the priorities and views of their respective interest groups. This essay is intended to be exploratory and descriptive rather than polemic; my assumption is that it is better for the issues to be clarified and discussed than for them to remain unarticulated. My thesis is that both groups are essentially working toward a reduction in society’s consumption of fossil fuels, and that cooperative efforts between the two groups could substantially strengthen their arguments and their effectiveness at persuading policymakers.

Differing Perspectives

While the Peak Oil and Climate Change issues may themselves be relatively clear and discrete, the groups of scientists and activists who study and organize around them are far from being distinct and internally homogeneous. Some individuals and groups working on issues related to oil and natural gas depletion are well informed about climate science, while some are not. Some climate protection groups are sensitive to fuel-supply vulnerability issues; others are not. Some Peak Oil activists are what have come to be known in the blog world as “doomers”—that is, they believe that there is no hope at this point for the preservation of modern civilization in any recognizable form; others are “techno-fixers,” who think that the world will adjust—painfully perhaps, but in the end successfully—to oil depletion through conservation and the development of alternative energy sources. Similarly there are “moderate” climate-change scientists and activists who see the problem as serious but solvable, while there are some who believe that the world has already passed a “tipping point” beyond which catastrophic impacts are inevitable. It is probably fair to say that the substantial majority of both groups find themselves somewhere midway between extreme positions staked out by some of their spokespeople.

So, given this lack of homogeneity among the groups, it would be inappropriate to generalize too much and I will try as best I can to remain sensitive to these differences and overlaps during the following discussion. After giving some thought to the matter, I have chosen not to mention names of individuals who hold the views that I will be describing.

Let us begin with the group I know better—the depletionists. It is fair to note that some Peak Oil analysts seem to be of the opinion that oil depletion constitutes a solution to the dilemma of global greenhouse gas emissions, or that Climate Change is actually not a problem at all. This appears to be the view primarily of some former oil industry geologists, but is probably not that of the majority of depletion analysts. The view is rarely stated openly (I was unable to find a glaring instance in print, though I have heard it expressed in conversation). Nevertheless, it is a notion that understandably causes concern and consternation among Climate Change activists.

For their part, many Climate Change activists and experts see global warming as potentially having such devastating consequences, not just for humans but for the whole biosphere, that Peak Oil seems a trivial concern by comparison. They argue that, even if global oil production peaks soon, this will provide no solution whatever to Climate Change because society will replace oil with coal and other low-grade fossil fuels—which will simply worsen greenhouse gas emissions. Moreover, since the remedies for carbon emissions that climate activists propose will inevitably lead to increased energy efficiency and a reduction in oil consumption, they often feel such efforts constitute an adequate answer to the Peak Oil problem.

Most oil depletionists (excepting the small group discussed above) appear to hold the opinion that Climate Change is indeed a legitimate concern; however, since the economic impact of Peak Oil looms in the immediate future, the economic and geopolitical chaos that may be triggered by declining global fuel supplies pose the more timely threat. Some have argued that if Peak Oil results in near-term economic collapse and wars over dwindling energy resources, these events will seriously or terminally undermine the ability of national leaders to undertake the cooperative, long-range planning necessary to reduce carbon emissions.

For many Climate Change activists, theirs is primarily a moral issue having to do with the fate of future generations and other species. Their message implies an appeal to self-preservation, but since they cannot prove that the most horrific climate consequences being predicted (the drowning of coastal cities by rising seas, rapidly expanding deserts, collapsing agricultural production) will occur within the next decade or two, the motive of self-preservation is often downplayed. This emphasis on the moral dimension of climate activism is clear in Al Gore’s documentary film, An Inconvenient Truth.

It is probably safe to say that most Peak Oil activists are motivated more by their immediate concerns for preservation of self, family, and community. They see the peak of global oil production as happening soon and the effects accumulating quickly. This concern for self-preservation is prominent in the quasi-survivalist tone of several Peak Oil websites.

Perhaps because Climate Change activists see that a dramatic reduction in emissions must be undertaken voluntarily and proactively, and that the depletion of fossil fuels will not occur quickly enough to deter catastrophic emissions levels, they tend to accept generous estimates of remaining fossil fuels as a way of dramatizing the need for action. They see the argument that depletion will take care of the carbon emissions problem as a threat, because it could lead to apathy. They argue that there are enough fossil fuels left on the planet to trigger a climatic doomsday; and, to underscore the argument, Climate Change often quote robust estimates of remaining oil reserves and amounts awaiting discovery issued by agencies such as the United States Energy Information Administration (EIA), and by companies like ExxonMobil and Cambridge Energy Research Associates (CERA)—most of whose forecasts seem unrealistically optimistic compared to the majority of expert forecasts. Climate activists understandably feel fully justified in doing this, because these, after all, are official estimates and forecasts.

Peak Oil activists adhere to more pessimistic resource estimates and production forecasts, and it is tempting to think that this is partly because doing so makes their case appear stronger. However, the track record of prediction by the optimists is not good:

* During the 1960s, the U.S. Geological Survey issued successive reports forecasting a peak in U.S. oil production around the year 2000; this followed M. King Hubbert’s controversial forecast of a peak around the year 1970. Confounding the official view, U.S. oil production did reach its maximum in 1970 and has been generally declining ever since, despite the subsequent discovery of the largest conventional oilfield ever found in North America—on the North Slope of Alaska—in the 1970s.
* In their International Energy Outlook (IEO) 2001 report, the EIA stated that “The United Kingdom is expected to produce about 3.1 mb/d by the middle of this decade, followed by a decline to 2.7 mb/d by 2020,” implying a peak around 2005. Britain’s oil production from the North Sea actually peaked in 1999, two years before this forecast was issued, at 2.684 mb/d, declining to less than 1.7 mb/d by 2005.
* In their IEO 2003 report, the EIA predicted that the country of Oman was “expected to increase output gradually over the first half of this decade” with “only a gradual production decline after 2005.” In fact, Oman’s production had already peaked in 2000, three years before the forecast was published.

This pattern of unrealistic optimism on the part of the official forecasting agencies continues with regard to other countries, and thus probably, by extrapolation, to the world as a whole. So it might be unrealistic for the climate activists to give credence to such forecasts, official though they may be, or even to assume that the truth lies somewhere equidistant between the extreme resource estimates of the so-called optimists and pessimists.

Parenthetically, both groups have reasons (though different ones) to regard ExxonMobil as an arch-foe. That company has consistently funded groups undermining public concern about Climate Change. And recently ExxonMobil has placed prominent magazine ads proclaiming that the global oil production peak is so far in the future that it is something we need not worry about. One ExxonMobil executive has been widely quoted as saying, “Peak oil theory is garbage.”

Differing Recommendations

These differences in perspective lead to somewhat diverging policy recommendations.

For Climate Change analysts and activists, emissions are the essence of the problem, and so anything that will reduce emissions is viewed as a solution. If societies shift from using a high-carbon fossil fuel (coal) to a fossil fuel with lower carbon content (natural gas), this an obvious benefit in terms of climate risk—and it is potentially an easy sell to politicians and the general public, because it merely requires a change of fuel, not a sacrifice of convenience or comfort on the part of the general public. And so, again, climate analysts tend to accept at face value official high reserves estimates and production forecasts—in this case, for natural gas.

However, as with oil, production forecasts by the official agencies for natural gas supply have tended to be overly robust. For example, in the U.S. the EIA issued no warning whatever of future domestic natural gas problems prior to the supply shortfalls that became painfully apparent after 2000, as prices more than quadrupled. Nevertheless a few industry insiders had noted disturbing signs: companies were drilling at an accelerating pace in order to maintain production rates, and newer fields (which tended to be smaller) were depleting ever more quickly. By 2003 the U.S. Energy Secretary was proclaiming a natural gas crisis. In the following three years, warm weather (perhaps due to Climate Change) and demand destruction (from the off-shoring of many industrial users of natural gas due to high domestic prices) led to a partial relaxing of prices and general complacency. However, U.S. domestic production appears set to decline further, and likely at a rapid pace.

For depletion analysts and activists, societal dependence on vanishing, non-renewable energy resources is the essence of the greatest dilemma that our society currently faces. We have created a complex, global economic infrastructure built to run on fuels that will start to become scarce and expensive very soon. From this perspective, natural gas is not a solution but an enormous problem: even if the global peak in gas production is 10 to 20 years away, regional shortages are already appearing and will continue to intensify. This means enormous risks for home heating, for the chemicals and plastics industries, and for electrical power generation. Natural gas is and will always be a fuel that is, for the most part, regionally traded (as opposed to liquid fuels, which are more easily shipped). Thus for many nations critical to the world economy—the U.S., Britain, and most of continental Europe—gas cannot serve as a “transition fuel.”

Coal presents another controversial topic for both depletion and emissions analysts. Most members of both groups feel a keen need to articulate some politically palatable transition strategy so as to gain the ears of policy makers. If coal were entirely ruled out of the discussion, such a strategy would become more difficult to cobble together. However, the two groups tend to think of very different future roles for coal.

Some emissions activists and analysts look to “clean coal” as a partial solution to the problem of Climate Change. “Clean coal” practices include gasifying coal underground, in situ, and then separating the resulting greenhouse gases (carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide) and then burying these in ocean sediments or old oilfields or coalmines This theoretically allows society to gain an energy benefit while reducing additions to atmospheric greenhouse gases.

Many depletion analysts are skeptical of such “carbon capture” schemes, believing that, when the world is mired in a supply-driven energy crisis, few nations will be adequately motivated to pay the extra cost (in both financial and energy terms) to separate, handle, and store the carbon from coal; instead they will simply burn whatever is available in order to keep their economies from crashing.

Some depletionists see the world’s enormous coal reserves as a partial supply-side answer to Peak Oil. Using a time-proven process, it is possible to gasify coal and then use the resulting gases to synthesize a high-quality diesel fuel. The South African company Sasol, which has updated the process, is currently under contract to provide several new coal-to-liquids (CTL) plants to China and has announced a plant in Montana.

CTL is not attractive to emissions analysts, however. While some carbon could be captured during the gasification stage (at a modest energy cost), burning the final liquid fuel would release as much carbon into the atmosphere as would burning conventional petroleum diesel.

A few depletion analysts tend to take a skeptical view of future coal supplies. According to most widely-quoted estimates, the world has at least two hundred years’ worth of coal—at current rates of usage. However, factoring in dramatic increases in usage (to substitute for declining oil and gas supplies), while also taking account of the Hubbert peak phenomenon and the fact that coal resources are of varying quality and accessibility, leads to the surprising conclusion that a global peak in coal production could come in as few as 30 years (this conclusion can be extrapolated from a recent study for the DOE regarding the US coal supply).1 That raises the question: does it make sense to place great hope in largely untested and expensive carbon sequestration technologies if the new infrastructure needed will be obsolete in just a couple of decades? Imagine the world investing trillions of dollars and working mightily for the next twenty years to build hundreds of “clean” coal (and/or CTL) plants, with the world’s electrical grids and transportation systems now becoming overwhelmingly dependent on these technologies, only to see global coal supplies rapidly dwindle. Would the world then have the capital to engage in another strenuous and costly energy transition? And what would be the next energy source?

Other low-grade fossil fuels, such as tar sands, oil shale, and heavy oil are also problematic from both the depletion and emissions perspectives. Some depletion analysts recommend full-speed development of these resources. However, the energetic extraction costs for these are usually quite high compared to the energy payoff from the resource extracted (also known as the energy returned on energy invested, or EROEI). Their already-low energy profit ratio would be compromised still further by efforts to capture and sequester carbon, since, as with coal, these low-grade fuels have a high carbon content as compared to natural gas or conventional oil. Currently, natural gas is used in the processing of tar sands and heavy oil; from an emissions point of view, this is rather like turning gold into lead. Many depletionists point out that, while the total resource base for these substances is enormous, the rate of extraction for each is likely to remain limited by physical factors (such as the availability of natural gas and fresh water needed for processing), so that synthetic liquid fuels from such substances may not help much in dealing with the problem of oil depletion in any case.

Supply Side, Demand Side

By now a disturbing trend becomes clear: the two problems of Climate Change and Peak Oil together are worse than either by itself. Strategies that might help to keep lights burning and trucks moving while reducing emissions are questionable from a depletionist point of view, while most strategies to keep the economy energized as oil and gas disappear imply increasing greenhouse gas emissions. As we will see, the closer we look, the worse it gets.

As noted above, both groups need to design a survivable energy transition strategy in order to “sell” their message to policy makers. Carbon emissions come from burning depleting fossil fuels, the primary energy sources for modern societies. Thus both problems boil down to energy problems—and energy is essential to the maintenance of agriculture, transportation, communication, and just about everything else that makes up the modern global economy.

With regard to both problems there are only two kinds of solutions: substitution solutions (finding replacement energy sources) and conservation solutions (using energy more efficiently or just doing without). The former is politically preferable, as it does not require behavioral change or sacrifice, though it tends to require more planning and investment. The least palatable option, from a political standpoint, is also the quickest and cheapest—doing without (curtailing current usage). We have gotten used to using enormous amounts of energy, at rates unprecedented in history. If we had to use much less, could we maintain the levels of comfort and economic growth that we have become accustomed to? Could we even keep the lights on?

Several questions become critical: How much of a change in energy supply will be imposed by the peaking of production of oil and natural gas? How much will be required in order to minimize Climate Change? And how much of that supply shortfall can be made up for with substitution and how much with efficiency, before we have to resort to curtailment?

Climate analysts agree the world needs to reduce emissions considerably. In 1996 the European Environment Council said that the global average surface temperature increase should be held to a maximum of 2 degrees C above pre-industrial levels, and that to accomplish this the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide (CO2) will have to be stabilized at 550 parts per million (the current concentration is 380 ppm, though the addition of other greenhouse gases raises the figure to the equivalent of 440 to 450 ppm of CO2). But recent studies have tended to suggest that, in order to achieve the 2 degree cap, much lower CO2 levels will be needed. One study by researchers at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact in Germany concluded that—again, to keep the temperature from increasing more than 2 degrees C—the atmospheric concentration target should be 440 ppm of CO2 equivalents, implying that the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases will need to be stabilized at current levels. But, to make the challenge even more difficult, it turns out that the biosphere’s ability to absorb carbon is being reduced by human activity, and this must be factored into the equation; by 2030, this carbon-absorbing ability will have been reduced from the current 4 billion tons per year to 2.7 billion. Thus if an equilibrium level of atmospheric carbon is to be maintained through 2030, emissions will have to be reduced from the current annual level of 7 billion tons to 2.7 billion tons, a reduction of 60 percent. It is hard to imagine how, if that translated to a 60 percent reduction in energy consumption, it could mean anything but economic ruin for the world.

Depletion analysts look to about a 2 percent per year decline in oil extraction following the peak of global oil production, with the rate increasing somewhat as time goes on. Regional natural gas decline rates will be much steeper. The dates for global production peaks for both fuels are of course still a matter for speculation; however, it is reasonable to estimate that we might see more than a 25 percent decline in energy available to the world’s growing population over the next quarter-century as a result of depletion.

Everyone would be happy if it were possible simply to substitute renewable sources of energy for oil, coal, and gas, and both depletion activists and climate activists support the expansion of most renewable energy technologies, including solar and wind. But there are realistic limits to the scale at which renewables can be deployed, and to the speed with which this can be accomplished.

Not all depletion or emissions activists support the large-scale development of biofuels (ethanol, butanol, and biodiesel), which are the only realistic replacements for liquid transport fuels, because of the low energy return on investment entailed in making these fuels, and because these substitutes imply worrisome tradeoffs with food production.

Some depletionists and some climate analysts recommend expanding nuclear power, arguing that technological advances could make it a safe and affordable alternative. Others argue against it, noting that high-grade ores will be depleted in 60 years, and that the entire nuclear cycle of mining, refining, enrichment, plant construction, and so on (excluding fission itself) is carbon intensive. One analysis suggests that, from the mid-2020s, the task of clearing up all past and future nuclear wastes will require more energy than the industry can generate from the remaining ore.

Then comes the equity issue. A few nations have benefited disproportionately from fossil fuels. If “developing” nations that have not yet had that opportunity are now required to forgo it, they will understandably perceive this as grossly unfair. They are unlikely to agree to dramatically reduce their own carbon emissions (i.e., fossil fuel consumption) voluntarily unless already-industrialized nations lead the way and reduce theirs proportionally more. Also, it’s necessary that at least a few of the “developing” nations—the ones that are rapidly industrializing now—be brought on board any global emissions or depletion agreement in order for it to have real meaning, as they have the economies with the fastest growth in energy demand. The prime example: while for practical purposes Americans will probably continue to lead the world in per capita fossil fuel use for some time, China will likely overtake the U.S. in 2009 as the world’s foremost national emitter of greenhouse gases.

Where does this leave us? Let’s assume that the more pessimistic critical analyses of both groups are correct. That is, let’s say that a 60 percent reduction in emissions is needed within 25 years, that natural gas will not be available in sufficient quantities to serve as a transition fuel, that “clean” coal will not help much, that low-grade fossil fuels will not make up for shortfalls in oil production, that CTL production will (or should) remain marginal, that renewables will not come on line in sufficient quantity or soon enough, that nuclear power won’t come to the rescue—and that modest contributions from these sources added together will not come close to making up for shortfalls from oil and gas depletion or from the voluntary phasing out of carbon fuels.

If this turns out to be the case, we may face a staggering need for energy efficiency and curtailment. Neither group wants this as its political platform.

The theoretically fairest solution, from an emissions point of view, would be to assign each living human an equal per capita right to emit carbon, and to create a market for those rights, so that continued disproportionate fossil fuel consumption by already-industrialized nations would entail substantial payments to less-industrialized nations. Fairness would also imply a steeper rate of reduction in fossil fuel consumption by the heavy users—a cut in emissions of considerably more than 60 percent.

However, to ask industrialized nations to share their wealth with less-industrialized nations while the former are engaged in a partially self-imposed energy famine seems highly problematic. What politician could demand the extra sacrifice? What public would vote for such a policy?

Common Ground

As we have seen, there are understandable reasons for some climate activists to ignore the arguments and priorities of depletionists, and vice versa. Dealing with only one of the two problems is much easier than confronting both. But our goal must be to deal with reality (rather than merely our preferred image of reality), and reality is complicated. Our world faces the interacting impacts not only of Peak Oil and Climate Change, but also of water scarcity, overpopulation, over-fishing, chemical pollution, and war (among others). In the end, there are too many of us using too much too fast, while competing for dwindling resources.

What would it take to solve all of these problems at once? A good start would be to require a global across-the-board 5 percent per year reduction in fossil fuel consumption and the provision of substantial financial and technical aid by industrialized nations to less-industrialized nations in creating a renewable energy infrastructure. But to the patient (the primary fossil fuel users) this medicine might seem worse than the disease. A grand plan like this has almost no chance of gaining political backing.

Realistically, we are left with the customary policy tools aimed to ameliorate the world’s ills piecemeal: emissions and depletion protocols, tradable quotas, emissions rights, import and export quotas, carbon taxes, and cap-and-trade mechanisms.

Thus for practical reasons it is probably inevitable that emissions and depletion activists will continue to pursue their separate policy goals. But it makes sense for the two groups to be informed by one another, and to cooperate wherever possible.

It is fairly obvious why such cooperation would benefit the depletionists: Climate Change is already a subject of considerable international concern and action, whereas Peak Oil is still a relatively new topic of discussion.

But how would such cooperation aid emissions activists?

In a word: motivation. As discussed earlier, emissions activists appeal to an ethical impulse to avert future harm to the environment and human society, while the Peak Oil issue appeals to a more immediate concern for self-preservation. In extreme circumstances, the latter is unquestionably the stronger motive. Strong motivation will certainly be required in order for the people of the world to undertake the enormous personal and social sacrifices required in order to quickly and dramatically reduce their fossil fuel dependency. Sustainability and equity are issues that are hard enough to campaign on in times of prosperity; when families and nations are struggling to maintain themselves due to fuel shortages and soaring prices, only massive education and persuasion campaigns could possibly summon the needed support.

Taken together, Climate Change and Peak Oil make a nearly air-tight argument. We should reduce our dependency on fossil fuels for the sake of future generations and the rest of the biosphere; but even if we choose not to do so because of the costs involved, the most important of those fossil fuels will soon become more scarce and expensive anyway, so complacency is simply not an option.

What would cooperation between the two groups look like? It would help, first of all, for activists on one issue to spend more time studying the literature of the other, and for both groups to arrange meetings and conferences where the intersections of the two issues can be further explored.

Both groups could work together more explicitly to promote proactive, policy-driven reductions in fossil fuel consumption.

Climate activists could start using depletion arguments and data in tandem with their ongoing discussions of ice cores and melting glaciers, but to do so they would need to stop taking unrealistically robust resource estimates at face value.

For their part, depletionists—if they are to take advantage of increased collaboration with emissions activists—must better familiarize themselves with climate science, so that their Peak Oil mitigation proposals are ones that lead to a reduction rather than an increase of carbon emissions into the atmosphere.

Perhaps, for both groups, with a stronger potential for motivating the public will come the courage to tell a truth that few policy makers want to hear: energy efficiency and curtailment will almost certainly have to be the world’s dominant responses to both issues.



1. Vaux, Gregson, “The Peak in US Coal Production” (FTW, 2004), www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/052504_coal_peak.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Editorial Notes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is another crucial edition of Richard Heinberg's Museletter. Please consider forwarding on this article through any climate change or peak oil activist circles you may be involved in.
-AF


Article found at :
http://www.energybulletin.net/newswire.php?id=24529

Original article :

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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Thx, that's the one nt
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
44. It all depends on the rate of post-peak decline
Edited on Mon Apr-02-07 09:48 AM by GliderGuider
A gentle decline in oil production, one that allows the world to transition to other energy sources, is the worst conceivable outcome. The reason for this is that the energy source of choice will be coal. In this scenario, in addition to the CO2 output from oil staying high, the relative contribution of coal to the atmospheric carbon load will increase. Industrial output will remain high, and there is no realistic chance that those in charge of industrial capacity will chose relatively high-cost alternative energy sources over low-cost coal. There will be tremendous public pressure to maintain the lowest cost production possible, especially if the world sees it is teetering on the brink of a global recession. This will force us into coal both for transportation fuel and electricity.

If the post-peak oil production decline is steep enough to precipitate a cascade of economic crises, resulting in a rapid entry into a global recession or depression - or even an outright collapse in some countries - the increase in carbon load may be slowed by global demand destruction. The only thing that will keep us from using more and more coal is a long-term reduction in global industrial requirements, and this would only come about through a global depression. Of course, the consequences of global economic troubles severe enough to contract the planet's industrial output would be catastrophic for those on the margins. Trying to alleviate this impact through the use of coal would eventually prove catastrophic for everyone, though.

My assessment is that the time time frame for initial peak oil impacts is about three years, followed by 5 years of an average 2% pa oil production decline ramping to 4% pa in ten years.

We will not have sufficient time to develop alternatives like solar and wind to sufficient capacity to offset such a decline in oil energy. Due to public opposition and long lead times, more nuclear power doesn't look like a realistic probability within the next ten years. Gas supplies in North America are already becoming problematic and will not be able to expand to fill a growing oil supply gap. Most of the useful hydro power locations around the world are already developed and the room for expansion of that source is small. That leaves coal.

IMO the only thing that will save the planet from global heating is a significant contraction of our industrial civilization, with all the discomfort that implies. The good news for the planet (though not for us) is that this outcome has a reasonably high probability.
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Eclipsenow Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. There are other options
Glider, you said:

The only thing that will keep us from using more and more coal is a long-term reduction in global industrial requirements, and this would only come about through a global depression. Of course, the consequences of global economic troubles severe enough to contract the planet's industrial output would be catastrophic for those on the margins. Trying to alleviate this impact through the use of coal would eventually prove catastrophic for everyone, though.

However many big corporations are sensing the current cultural change towards Global Warming and want to make money from going green. Now while I agree that solar and wind will not arrive in time to prevent peak oil, personally I think that's a good thing! Because they are growing exponentially, but from a very low resource base... so, maybe we will:

1. Learn to ride a pushbike for local trips
2. Get into the Electron Economy (wind has a high enough ERoEI to charge an EV)
3. Create an incentive for rezoning.

Check out the benefits of rezoning suburbia house by house, and what could be achieved with the normal rates of attrition and home demolition.... simply by not replacing the suburban mistakes next time round.

"A normal city is changing all the time - buildings grow old and are replaced. Just look at a picture of your city fifty or a hundred years ago. If the average building life is 60 years, then the city changes at the rate of 1.6% per year.

I took as the basis for this scenario the average size of an average Swedish municipality - 36,000 inhabitants. I assumed that instead of building the houses on that same plot as the one demolished you build eco units on the periphery of the city, along the roads preferably. Then you start to ruralise at the same pace as the normal replacement rate. After 50 years, only ten percent of the city is left."
Folke Günther
http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/583

That means that after just 10 years, 16% of domestic suburban transport energy demand has gone permanently! Forget energy efficient cars, we need energy efficient cities and if the peak oil and environmental community can get their heads around the fact that New Urbanism and eco-cities solve both peak oil and global warming, and can do so in one generation, then the better off we will all be.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Yes there are.
The one thing that we need to do more than anything right now (as in Right Now) is to ensure that when TSHTF we will have local food available. We need to be bending every effort towards promoting local agriculture based on low fertilizer inputs, non-hybridized (i.e. true-breeding) seed and human/animal labour. We absolutely need to have survivable quantities of food available within a day's walk from our dwellings, to know the people that grow it, and to grow some of it ourselves.

Food security is THE most critical item on the agenda. It beats out electric cars, walkable cities, wind turbines, pollution reduction, even worries about global warming. The reason is the time line and decline rate that is about to hit the world's oil supply. I've been following Peak Oil analysis very closely for a bit over two years now, and it's exhibiting the very same characteristics as recent Global Warming findings. Everything is happening faster and harder than we expected.

A year ago I thought the world would be on an oil production plateau for around five years, followed by a gentle decline of maybe 2% per year for the next 10. When Robert Hirsch published his DOE report in 2005 he described the problems we would face if the peak was in twenty years, ten years or now. I felt that twenty years was too optimistic, but felt that a ten year head start on the problem was reasonable. Over the last year the world oil situation has deteriorated dramatically. The world crude production has been plateaued for two years already, Mexico's super-giant field Cantarell is declining at 14% per year, the North Sea is going down by 13%, Saudi Arabia has just been proven to be declining by 8%, the last super-giant that's not in decline, Saudi Arabia's Ghawar, appears to be set to crash (or may already be causing that 8% decline), and the Canadian Tar Sands are experiencing massive cost escalations (100% in the last year). An oil analyst I trust, an ex-honcho in the Iranian National Oil Company, has just published his expectation that the world will lose a full third of its oil supply by the year 2020 - in just 13 years.

We are about to tip over into the decline phase of the Age of Oil, and it looks like it's going to be a bumpy, breathless, ever-steepening descent. To make matters worse, there is going to be an oil export crisis as well. Oil exporting nations are experiencing the combined effects of slowing production and rising domestic demand. As domestic demand is satisfied preferentially ahead of foreign demand, the amount of oil left over for export is going to decline faster than gross production. For example, Russia, the world's largest oil producer, has just announced a 2.5% drop in net exports. The implications of this for oil importing nations like the USA are dire. In fact, the USA will probably be hit by export shortfalls from Mexico as early as the second half of this year due to the continuing decline of Cantarell.

So in light of this why is the food supply crucial? Oil is what knits together our global civilization. It is the blood that flows through the internal combustion muscles of the planetary economy, tying remote places together with a vast transportation web. The one crucial product this web carries around the world is food. It has been estimated that every calorie of food embodies on average ten calories of fossil fuel energy, considering both its production and transportation. The food delivery network is very finely tuned, highly interconnected and extremely efficient. As a result it is also very brittle. This lack of resilience may enable disruptions to cascade through the system very rapidly. And if the food delivery web is compromised, people die. We can see an example of this already in Africa, where food distribution is more of a determinant of famine that mere food availability. Any disruptions to the supply of oil will immediately impact the critical global food distribution network.

In order to protect ourselves, we need to decentralize and localize food production as much as possible. Reduce the oil it takes to get the potatoes onto your plate - to zero, if you grow them yourself. Use non-hybrid seeds that breed true and can be saved, so that next year's crop doesn't depend on the participation of large agribusiness companies like Archer Daniel Midlands and Cargill. Assure the food security of your local community to decouple their fate from that of other communities that haven't been so forward-thinking.

We can live without Chinese plastic bath toys. We can even live without cars. We cannot, under any circumstances, live without food. Within 5 to 10 years the global food supply may be under threat. Ten years is not long enough to change our cities, our suburbs, our driving habits or the international economy. It is long enough to learn how to grow food, and to start doing it in quantities that will make a difference.

</soapbox>
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
65. We need to switch to the Metric System immediately
Well, it wouldn't hurt.

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. It would cut Global Warming in half instantly!
Now don't the rest of us who switched back before there was any Global Warming look like a bunch of fools? :crazy:
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