Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

"Make the Greenleap!"

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
Newtopia Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 06:59 PM
Original message
"Make the Greenleap!"
Hey DU,

I'd be interested in opinions on the ideas presented in this article.




Make the Greenleap
by Charles Shaw, Editor-in-Chief

Green politics & policies are about much more than just ecology and Ralph Nader. They are about replacing wasteful consumerism and a passive system of governance with a holistic, sustainable approach that incorporates social and environmental demands into national security and global trade policies.

http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/content/issue17/features/greenleap.php

(ADVANCE DISCLAIMER: None of this is meant to be statement on voting in the 2004 election. This article is educational and provocative)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Far too much in there there to...
answer in a posting, but I'll say it's some good ideas mixed in with Utopian dreaming and some crackpottery.

Several observations...

The culture of spend and acquire is not going away, no matter how much many of us rail against it. Somehow, we have to find a way to deal with most of our species preferring to accumulate "stuff" and use resources without any regard for the consequences. We haven't found that way yet, and blaming the businesses who make profits off of our personal profligacy won't work.

I have actually been personally involved in dealing with some ecological disasters, oil spills, in my past professional life, and can attest to the ability of those dreaded corporations to work with government and come up with the resources, technology, and management to solve the problems. Long before Exxon screwed up the process, there was the Torrey Canyon, and in a little over two years we managed to get a law written, full financing in place, and a worldwide system of containment should something like that ever happen again. It did, and we often dealt with it successfully, although some spills are just impossible to deal with.

The Exxon Valdez was an example of corporate and conservative arrogance that destroyed the system we set up. The other side of the coin.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thats where the government steps in though
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 10:10 PM by Massacure
Make sure that anybody stupid enough to pull shit thinks twice about doing it again.

I really don't think that it is that hard to become more environmentally friendly. The current fuel efficiency of cars has been around for 30 years, we could easily give it a huge raise. It promotes investment in technology, and meerly shifts jobs around. It doesn't destroy them all together.

Just because we cannot be perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try at all. The Europeans pay $5.00 for a gallon of gas. I'm sure that the American people could afford to pay an extra quarter or two per gallon. Just start subsidizing health care and it will all trickle back down to the people again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Newtopia Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Please explain
You've got to explain such a harsh criticism as "crackpottery". I don't think anything in what I discussed is crackpottish. I;d like you to cite examples please.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-04 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. OK...
but please note that I agree with your basic ideas about sustainability and don't really want to get into a pissing contest over small details.

In that vein, a few observatons.


In his defense, Ralph Nader understands how the American system of economic and political oppression operates and reproduces itself. Nader was among the first to figure out that the American system of governance, Congress and the President, and its legal system, the Supreme Court, have a central, fundamental contradiction that is presently unresolved: the rights of citizens in the workplace, and by extension the rights of those without capital, are profoundly constrained.


Dickens, the muckrakers of the early 20th century, labor unions, and even ol' Karl Marx and Mill knew all about this stuff long before Nader thought about it. One fundamental function of government, according to us graybeard liberals, is to even the playing field and put limits on power. Our system of government is not at fault, it is how that system is actually using, or not using in the present case, its ability to create and enforce proper rules.


When you walk into your corporate job in the morning you leave your Bill of Rights at the door.


No you don't. What you have is a contract between employer and employee. Again, it is government's, and organized labor's, role to make sure that contract is fair.


In the recent documentary, The Corporation experts are consulted to construct a psychological profile of the Corporation. They conclude that if the Corporation were a person, it would be a psychopath.


Business bashing won't get you very far. Even in the world you and I envision, it will still be business that owns the means of production. Having spent half of my working life under the thumb of Fortune 100 companies, I am well aware of the damage they can do. I am also aware, however, that corporations are amoral and brainless. They are like computer programs-- developed to do several things very well and pretty much ignore everything else. However, those nasty businesses are the key to feeding, housing, and bringing high speed internet access to the masses. When nasty chemical companies dump sludge in the river, it is other companies that develop the technology and clean up the river and find other ways to get rid of the sludge.

We are stuck with big business, and the trick is to control them, not simply demonize them


In a Free Market economic system in which people are the main commodity, millions of people are considered surplus and "expendable", which is a warm and fuzzy way of saying that millions will be left to starve and die.


People are not a commodity, except to slave traders. People are labor, and as such are indeed often seen as expendable. Utilitarian theory of labor and all, where labor is merely another raw material in production. This, of course, is not new, as any reading of Dickens and his ilk will show. What we're talking about here isn't so much what a proper free market is, but the latest craze in laissez faire. A proper free market must be controlled (the part of Mill that people who talk about him a lot tend to ignore) and that brings us to the dreaded WTO, which has the elements of control, but isn't being used all that well.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Newtopia Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-19-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Ok
Edited on Sat Jun-19-04 02:46 PM by Newtopia
These were excellent points, and I thank you sincerely. I do want to make a couple points:


>When you walk into your corporate job in the morning you leave your >Bill of Rights at the door.

>No you don't. What you have is a contract between employer and >employee. Again, it is government's, and organized labor's, role to >make sure that contract is fair.

Nonetheless, that contract does not include the Bill of Rights, and I think you know exactly what I mean. I did explain it quite clearly in the sentence that came afterwards. Semtantical differences are not qualitative differences.


>Business bashing won't get you very far. Even in the world you and >I envision, it will still be business that owns the means of >production. Having spent half of my working life under the thumb of >Fortune 100 companies, I am well aware of the damage they can do. I >am also aware, however, that corporations are amoral and brainless. >They are like computer programs-- developed to do several things >very well and pretty much ignore everything else. However, those >nasty businesses are the key to feeding, housing, and bringing high >speed internet access to the masses. When nasty chemical companies >dump sludge in the river, it is other companies that develop the >technology and clean up the river and find other ways to get rid of >the sludge.

>We are stuck with big business, and the trick is to control them, >not simply demonize them

Listen, I completely agree with you there. My point is that the system is unfairly leveraged, and corportions weild TOO much influence, and have in effect created a dependent-system which they perpetuate. I adore and will always live within entrepenurial capitalism, but when the system is co-opted by a new Oligarchy and the people are not given co-operative ownership, as is the case now when looking at where worldwide wealth is concentrated. The system is set up to protect the "haves." But we don't need to have a Communist revolution to diversify the ownership base of worldwide wealth. The more we move into a "knowledge economy", the more people whould be given ownership over the fruits of their creative labors. You don't need mega transnational corporations to still have a business world. That film "The Corporation" analyzed the behavior of corporations as they presently exist. I don't think I need to do too much cajoling to get you to see that coporations have become drunk and psychotic with power.


>In a Free Market economic system in which people are the main >commodity, millions of people are considered surplus >and "expendable", which is a warm and fuzzy way of saying that >millions will be left to starve and die.
>
>People are not a commodity, except to slave traders. People are >labor, and as such are indeed often seen as expendable. Utilitarian >theory of labor and all, where labor is merely another raw material >in production. This, of course, is not new, as any reading of >Dickens and his ilk will show. What we're talking about here isn't >so much what a proper free market is, but the latest craze in >laissez faire. A proper free market must be controlled (the part of >Mill that people who talk about him a lot tend to ignore) and that >brings us to the dreaded WTO, which has the elements of control, >but isn't being used all that well.


But my point is that people ARE becoming a commodity again. Not their bodies, but the ideas in their heads. They are both traded and invested in equally. That is a "knowledge economy". There are volumes of literature on this topic now. Check out the world of my dear friend and colleague Richard Florida (http://www.creativeclass.org), he has a lot of material on this. Also, my magazine, Newtopia, has a lot of material on this.

Hey, thanks for the effort. I really appreciate helpful, constructive criticism.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You have a good case...
and all I really suggest is that you make the best of it, without falling into some potential traps.

I wish you the best with this magazine.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. Not sure where to begin, Charles, but I'll try...
Edited on Wed Jun-23-04 12:23 PM by IrateCitizen
First off, your discussion regarding US attempts to maintain petro-hegemony are interesting, but I think they're a bit incomplete. I fully appreciate your discussion of the Dollar v. Euro issue WRT petroleum, as it is a major issue -- not necessarily from strict economic terms, as much as from control of resources concerns. However, it needs to be noted the reasons for the US invasion of Iraq (an action which, IIRC, you strangely enough argued in favor in a past issue of your magazine, albeit for humanitarian reasons) were not really to take all of the world's oil for itself, as much as they were about maintaining control over the world's oil supply as a bullwark against the increasingly-independent EU and Japan, who still rely upon the Middle East for the overwhelming majority of their oil.

According to the French historian and demographer Emmanuel Todd in his book After the Empire (a highly-recommended read!), the US is primarily concerned with trying to maintain a hegemony that no longer exists. It is also trying to accomplish this fool's errand through outdated military means, when the real power in the world is now wielded economically, and there will never again be a true world power. Instead, we are increasingly seeing the competition and cooperation between different regions -- i.e. the EU, the Pacific Rim led by Japan and an emerging China, and even the possible emergence of a South American bloc led by Brazil and Argentina. Todd describes this phenomenon in a relatively simple but hard-hitting way: "The rest of the world is discovering that it can get along with the United States at the same moment that the United States is realizing it cannot get along without the rest of the world." What Todd means by this is that the EU and Japan have become not only economically-independent, but also politically independent -- while the US's economy has been hollowed out and is primarily held together by excessive consumer spending financed by the hogging of the majority of global investment capital through the IMF.

The US is able to maintain a degree of hegemony in this arrangement, so long as Europe (led by the emerging Franco-German alliance at it heart) and Japan are willing to go along. But an increasingly arrogant and irrational United States is making this arrangement more and more tenuous.

As Todd writes, the wild card in all of this is Russia. Despite half-hearted attempts to facilitate the collapse of Russia following the fall of the USSR on the part of US policies, Russia is on the road to re-emergence. It has experienced significant economic growth for the past 3 years running after a decade of contraction. Most importantly, it possesses immense oil and gas reserves, along with a natural resource base rendering it practically self-sufficient -- which means that it can tell the IMF/World Bank/WTO to go straight to hell if it so desires. Russia is currently in the process of attempting to forge significant ties with Europe, which only makes sense because they share much more in cultural values than either do with the United States -- along with the fact that Russia isn't encumbered by the same hubris and dreams of world domination that seem to currently inflict American geopolitical thought. In this sense, Russia's relative weakness may turn out to be its greatest strength.

Should the EU and/or Japan turn toward a deeper and permanent alliance with Russia, that leaves the US out in the cold. We won't be able to control their oil spigot anymore, and will be left with a hornet's nest of largely our own making in the Middle East. There will no longer be the need to allow the US to dictate global financial and trade terms, resulting in a drying up of investment capital accompanied by a 20%-25% reduction in the US standard of living. This, of course, will in turn facilitate the collapse of our massive military-industrial complex, and reduce our standing on the world stage to that of just another industrialized nation.

Getting on to the greater subject at hand, "Greenleap", it will not be a politically-driven event. I think you're starting to see it, it fits and starts, taken up by segments of the population. Living simplicity campaigns are taking off. There is increasing interest in cohousing, along with the redesign of existing suburban enclaves, to both live in a more environmentally-responsible manner and find greater community fulfillment.

Current political institutions are too tied-up with the very interests opposed to any kind of sustainable development. And on what remains of the political left, conventional wisdom still holds in the mistaken belief that the key lies not in sustainability and egalitarianism, but in perpetual economic growth. Although this arrangement might have worked in the post-WWII boom, as described by John Kenneth Galbraith in his book The Affluent Society, as a means of combatting economic inequalities within society, it is clear now that it is a strategy of the past, with little applicability in today's world.

Personally, as a democratic socialist, I can fully appreciate the need for increased real democracy along with movement toward a sustainable economy. However, I also fully appreciate the need for markets and capital enterprise, and would probably be on the side of free-marketeers under a fully socialist system. However, as described through both theory and example in the book The Soul of Capitalism: Opening Paths to a Moral Economy, William Greider shows that a reform of our economic system will not come from an already-compromised political system -- rather, it will come from movements around the edges that eventually catch on and move toward the mainstream. There is no set pattern for producing a sustainable economy, which is why the best we can hope for is a broadening committment to such a concept, with an accompanying transformation that is sure to happen in fits and starts (but will hopefully be made less painless by the committment to seeing it through).

Of course, the other option is simply to continue along until we reach crisis mode, and then thrash about madly trying to deal with the immediate problem. It's simply up to those of us who don't heed the dictates of conventional wisdom, who are willing to think and act outside the box, to ensure that the worst case scenario doesn't happen. The vast majority of Americans who are hypnotized by cheap trinkets and reality television aren't going to do it, which means that the political leaders certainly aren't either. It's up to us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC