About Cuba

[BayCityProgressive]

I have read a lot of pro and anti Cuba threads on this board lately and I think both sides take a kind of extremist approach. I think we need to look at this situation as it really is and not how we would like to believe it to be. No country in the world is perfect. I really don't know what to believe regarding Cuba's election processes and if Castro is a iron fisted dictator that is terrible and wrong. However, I do know people who have been to Cuba.

A few friends of mine went on an educational trip to Cuba and got to travel across the entire country for about two weeks. They personally met Castro and listened to one of his conferences He had no armed gaurds or military anywhere near him. Seems to me that a brutal dictator would need guards of some sort. They said that in certain areas there were still signs of racial tension in the country. One of my friends is gay and they went to a local gay bar in Havana to party it up for the night. Cuba used to be oppressive concerning gays but is now more accepting. A lot of the guys at the club wore GAP and NIKE and other such clothing that they bought from foreign tourists. Not because they couldn't get clothing in Cuba but because they wanted something trendy.

They met people who were openly critical of the government and didn't seem to fear speaking out. They said that many of Cuba's doctors and state workers were leaving their jobs to work in the foreign tourist spots because the state is poor and cannot pay a doctor as much as a janitor at one of these resorts is making. The people are poor but they have access to school, healthcare, and food. They also own their own land now. There are coffee houses, nightclubs, shopping centers, everything that the US has. Cuba also sent their army to Africa in the past to help fight the apartheid and they send doctors to third world slums the world over. Recently they administered the death penalty which most of the civilized world (not the US) finds barbaric.

Now lets look at America's record. We are among the biggest supporters of capital punishment in the world with company like Iran, China, and Saudi Arabia. We have a history of overthrowing democratically elected leaders the world over and installing fascist dictators which has resulted in the deaths of 10's of thousands. Far more people than Saddam ever killed. Pinochette? yup that was us. The Iranian theocracy? Say hello to America again. Amnesty International does criticize Cuba and also does with the US. They criticize unfair trials here, gitmo, our treatment of Iraqi prisoners among other things. We have a slected dictator of our own ( and don't sugar coat this..Someone who is selected by a partisan court against the public vote and the will of the people IS a dictator). A coup in our largest state. Political corruption and horrible health care. How can we have free speech when a few corporations own all the media? We continue to violate UN treaties and ammendments. We also support anti Cuba Batista supporters. So my question is, why are some of you so mad at Cuba and not your own country that has caused far more pain and suffering in the world than Cuba? Even if Cuba is a dictatorship that represses free speech, I think in the totality of things the US is hardly one to talk about democracy.

[Mika]

1. I was in Cuba during the 1997-98 elections

I think that relating what I have seen of Cuba and experienced there is not extremist.

Cubans speak freely. There are many political parties, including Christian & capitalism espousing parties and platforms. Candidates are selected in their district by a series of runoff elections and ratification elections.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.


If Americans weren't banned by their own government from going to Cuba to see for themselves, then more Americans would know this.



You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html


I urge DUers who want to learn a little about Cuba's democratic process to please read this book,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[BayCityProgressive]

2. Well

I have never been to Cuba. I am going based on the opinions of people on both sides. I personally would LOVE to go there and see things for myself. Also as for Castro being elected since 76 to the presidency I actually DON'T find this unbelievable. Roosevelt was re-elected numerous times and loved by Americans for his New Deal people first policies and the GOP ammended term limits they were so afraid. It would be even easier to be re-elected in a parliamentary system. If Castro delivered halthcare, freedom from Batista, Education, redistribution of wealth, and land ownership to the people I don'tthink it is impossible that people would have a fondness for him. Bill Clinton could easily have won a 3rd term if he were aloud.

[Mika]

3. I think that part of the mistake is fixating on Castro

" If Castro delivered halthcare, freedom from Batista, Education, redistribution of wealth, and land ownership to the people I don'tthink it is impossible that people would have a fondness for him."

Castro didn't deliver it all on a silver platter. ALL of the Cuban people worked on building Cuba's infrastructure, marshaling and directing scarce resources to Cuba's social systems. Focusing on Castro is a distraction from the fact that the Cuban people are in control of Cuba. Their systems are constantly upgrading and modifying according to the environment and the needs and will of the people. Castro is just one man -old now- and is more of a revered figurehead than a man in total control (which he never was). Its the elected Cuban National Assembly (the Cuban parliament) that has the real power in Cuba now, and the elected leader of the Cuban parliament is Ricardo Alarcon.

[tah]

4. who ran against him?

You mention that Castro has been elected since 1976. Could you tell me who ran against him? I assume that for an election to be a fair test of his popularity there who have to have been a choice. After all if you are the only candidate, getting elected isn't much of a challenge.

[BayCityProgressive]

5. Well

this isn't always true. As I said before I have not been to Cuba and there are people on both sides of this. I am not sure if anyone has run against him because I don't know that much about Cuban politics. That being said- if their system is a parliament then he wouldn't always need to have a challenger. In America there are many congressman who are unchallenged year after year because they have a solid lock on their district. If Castro has a lock on his district then he would likely not have challengers either. Just a thought.

[bemildred]

6. That isn't how it works.

He is elected by the parliament or whatever it is.
Like Tony Blair.

[Zuni]

30. of course he is elected

The Parliamenmt will always choose him.

[bemildred]

33. Right, he's elected, but nobody runs against him.

Got it?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. That Cuban democracy Faq

had a link to a report on human rights in Cuba by a commission of the Organization of American States (OAS).

Here is the 2002 report:

http://www.cidh.org/annualrep/2002eng/chap.4a.htm


there is a lot of info here.

[IndianaGreen]

17. The OAS is a puppet of the US

America has controlled the OAS since its creation in 1948. The OAS was never a mini-UN, and it has always stood silent whenever the "Colossus of the North" intervened in the affairs of its member nations.

Amazingly so, Bush has so alienated even traditional subservient allies, that the OAS took the extraordinary step of criticizing the detention of POWs in Guantanamo in violation of the Geneva Convention. Here is a WSWS article about that:

Organization of American States human rights panel opposes Bush policy on POWs
By Kate Randall
22 March 2002

In the last week, new protests have been lodged over Bush administration policy toward both Afghan War POWs in Cuba and detainees held in the US since September 11. On March 13, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights of the Organization of American States (OAS) declared that the more than 300 prisoners being held at Guantanamo Bay should be brought before a formal tribunal to determine their status. The Bush administration has refused to take such action, even though it is called for in the Geneva Conventions on prisoners of war.

The five-member panel of the OAS voted unanimously in support of the resolution, reflecting widespread international opposition to American treatment of captured soldiers. It was an embarrassing diplomatic rebuke for Washington, all the more awkward for having come from an organization normally subservient to the United States.

The OAS panel said it is “well-known that doubt exists as to the legal status of the detainees” and that “a competent court or tribunal, as opposed to a political authority, must be charged with ensuring respect” for their “legal status and rights.” The panel’s American member did not take part in the decision.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/pows-m22.shtml

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. Here is Amnesty International's 2003 Cuba report

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/cub-summary-eng

[IndianaGreen]

19. I have been to Cuba

Ashcroft would have made a dissenter like Vladimiro Roca disappear.

Every time the Cuban government had to crack down it was in response to Florida based terrorism, and the blatant interference in Cuba by the American charge of affairs in Havana.

I suggest you read what Amnesty International says about the United States before you get on your sanctimonious soap box!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. Posting a link qualifies as getting on a sanctimonious soap box?

The present government of the United States is evil and repressive. So what? Do two wrongs make a right?

[IndianaGreen]

23. But it makes you a hypocrite to support America when she is the worse

But it makes you a hypocrite to support America when she is the worse offender and has engaged in murder and terrorism on a global scale, particularly in Latin America.

Like many of the Miami gusanos, and their rightwing sycophants, you are obsessed about a handful of Cuba's misdemeanors while ignoring America's felonious crime spree!

Conservatives in this country always lauded Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch whenever they issued a report critical of governments they disliked. but quickly turned a deaf ear when a report would critize the US or one of our puppet regimes.

Just as the people of Iraq have the right of self-determination free of the evil American occupation, the people of Cuba have chosen to exercise their own determination. America should stay out of Cuban affairs, just as it should get out of Iraq!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

24. You are putting words in my mouth -

I haven't said anything that indicates I support these American policies and I don't. All I did was post a link to Amnesty International's 2003 report on Human Rights in Cuba.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

22. Human Rights Watch

1999 report on Cuba:
CUBA S REPRESSIVE MACHINERY Human Rights Forty Years After the Revolution

2003 Editorial by the executive director of the Americas division of Human Rights Watch:
Havana s Obstruction of Freedom

[Judi Lynn]

44. Human Rights Watch on the embargo

(snip) Time to End the U.S. Embargo on Cuba


(Washington, May 17, 2002) President George Bush should terminate the economic embargo on Cuba, Human Rights Watch said today. Describing the embargo as a failed policy, Human Rights Watch said that it imposes indiscriminate hardship on the Cuban people and impedes democratic change. (snip/...)

http://hrw.org/press/2002/05/cuba0517.htm

[durutti]

51. Of course there are HR violations in Cuba

But the questions to ask are: 1.) are these violations worse than those committed by the Batista regime? 2.) are these violations worse than those committed in other, similar countries? and 3.) does the U.S. embargo and American enmity contribute to the state of human rights in Cuba?

The impartial observer, I think, would certainly come to these conclusions: 1.) no 2.) no 3.) yes

[IndianaGreen]

52. And the Cuban HR record is better than the US record

America is the only industrialized nation that executes children and mentally handicapped.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. I found this to be an interesting article

it is from New Internationalist magazine:

http://www.newint.org/issue301/politics.html

one of the least one-sided assessments I have read so far.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

7. What would happen if Castro died of a heart attack tonight?

I don't know a lot about Cuba. Based on my travels I tend to agree it is basically impossible to know much about a place without spending some time there. (Well, I've been to Guantanomo Bay, so technically I've been to Cuba but...) The subject of Cuba is so politically charged as well that I am highly sceptical of everything I do read or see about it. It is like the Israeli-Palestinian issue where it is hard to find someone who is knowledgable on the subject who is not also highly opinionated. ( Incidentally I was not very opinionated on that topic until I became more knowledgable about it. )

And one thing I've noticed is that the anti-Castro people are just that - anti-Castro - as Mika put it: 'fixating on Castro'. Mika your posts seem to indicate that if Castro were to suddenly die, there would be no political upheaval. The anti-Castro camp must think otherwise. But it seems like they are living in a dream world.

I note that Castro is only 76 so he probably has a long way to go...


comments?

[Mika]

11. There would be nationwide grief.

Contrary to the info passed on to Americans by the anti Castro factions, there will be nationwide and heartfelt grief in Cuba when Mr Castro dies. He is like George Washington to the Cuban people. He is not the be all/ end all to Cubans, but, he is one of the men who lead the way in the beginning, who handed the torch of freedom and democracy to the people.



I can't find online stats for the 97-98 or 2002-03 elections (when the union candidates fared even better), but here are some 93 stats

http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/dictator.htm

* 99% of the electorate voted
* 7% of the ballots were spoiled.
* Of the 589 deputies, 80% of them were elected for the first time. Their average age is 43.
* 77% are men and 23% are women
* 59 of the deputies are peasants or agricultural workers.
* 46 are industrial or manual workers.
* 23 are trades union leaders.
* 25 are intellectual, artists and journalists.
* 29 are teachers and specialists, 10 are secondary and university student lead

[Zuni]

29. how can you swallow this nonsense?

the torch of freedom and democracy?

[IndianaGreen]

14. Raul Castro, Fidel's younger brother, will succeed him

Raul will be an interim head of state. Most people do not expect Raul, who has been a respected and capable leader of the military, to become another military head of state like many other Latin American countries. Raul is seen as more pragmatic than his older brother.

The bets are that economist Carlos Lage Davila will be the one to run for Fidel's old job. Lage favors a Chinese economic model for Cuba.

Who will win the election to replace Fidel is hard to tell. The Cuban government is not monolithic, and the National Assembly is liable to go in different directions once the unifying personality of Fidel is no longer there.

What I fear is while the Cubans will follow a constitutional process to replace Fidel, the Miami gusanos and their allies in the Bush regime will try to destabilize Cuba by the use of increasing sanctions, military threats, and acts of terrorism.

You will see with your own eyes the inexhaustable capacity of America to engage in treachery and betrayal to advance its corporate interests. Perhaps Bush will stage a "terrorist" attack on Guantanamo, launched from Cuba, as a pretext to invade the country.

[smallprint]

8. simple

all i have to say to people arguing about cuba is, go there and see for yourself. go. just go. go. GO GO GO GO GO GO!

it's legal.

it's easy.

it's relatively cheap.

it's friendly.

it's safe.

GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO NOW!

here's a link to the group i traveled with:

www.globalexchange.org

[smallprint]

9. simple

all i have to say to people arguing about cuba is, go there and see for yourself. go. just go. go. GO GO GO GO GO GO!

it's legal.

it's easy.

it's relatively cheap.

it's friendly.

it's safe.

GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO NOW!

here's a link to the group i traveled with:

www.globalexchange.org

[smallprint]

10. whoops sorry double post

and the editing period is over...

guess my enthusiasm got the better of me!

[Mika]

12. smallprint, WRONG WRONG. It IS NOT legal for Americans to go to Cuba..

.. without an OFAC permit.

You'll notice that the travel ban is on Americans only.. not Cuban-Americans nor Cuban immigrant resident aliens.


http://ciponline.org/cuba/travel/travelregsmemo_2003.htm

TRAVEL BAN ON CUBA TIGHTENED: WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW

On March 24, 2003, the Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) announced amended regulations on travel to Cuba from the U.S. Though OFAC accepted comments on the regulations until May 23, 2003, there is no formal review process and the regulations go into effect with no real congressional oversight.

People to people travel category eliminated
The new regulations eliminate non-degree related educational travel to Cuba: the 2nd largest license category of travelers, which combined non-credit educational activities with people-to-people contacts. People-to-people travel was licensed by the previous administration, with the belief that such contacts between the two nations would promote American democratic ideals; this travel policy toward Cuba was modeled after the successful exchanges that took place between the former Soviet Bloc and the United States years ago.

* Specifically, the new regulations abolish section 515.565 (b)(2) of OFAC’s Cuban Assets and Control Regulations. Effective March 23rd, “…specific licenses will no longer be granted to sponsor people-to-people educational exchanges to take individuals under their auspices on educational trips to Cuba unrelated to academic coursework.” (OFAC Report for Congress, updated April 22, 2003) The new OFAC regulations will be a major setback for universities, non-profit orgs, professional associations, museums, religious groups, American businesses, continuing education programs, etc.

Cuban American restrictions eased

The new regulations eased restrictions on the largest category of travelers: Cuban Americans. The definition of a close relative was broadened and the amount of cash remittances a Cuban American may carry to Cuba rose to from $300 to $3,000. The per diem spending limit for Cuban Americans was lifted entirely. Effectively, OFAC has eased conditions under which Cuban-Americans may travel and has narrowed them for most others. This leniency arises from the fact that a majority of Cuban Americans now support lifting the travel ban. Still, many Cuban Americans complain that getting permission for more than one visit--even in extreme cases like death in the family--is too cumbersome and cruel; often these visitors return home illegally, through third countries.

More at.. http://ciponline.org/cuba/travel/travelregsmemo_2003.htm

[Feanorcurufinwe]

13. It's not legal but if you really want to go

can you just go through another country without any fear of getting in trouble?

[BayCityProgressive]

15. Well hopefully before Castro passes

a political alliance can be made between Cuba, Venezuela, and Brazil. We have the potential for 3 viable and real socialist countries. It will be hard for any lone nation to be a true socialist nation when surrounded by capitlaist nations though. Even if all three were socialist the odds would not be in their favor.

[Judi Lynn]

46. You might be interested in seeing this material

released during the American and Cuban joint conference on the anniversary of the Bay of Pigs in Havana.

You may be surprized to note the people who attended. Three of these people were former "exile" fighters in that battle who returned and actually spoke with the people who were shooting at them.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/delegation.html

A couple were people who were advisors to John F. Kennedy. It's really interesting.

Within this report is a chronoligical listing of events surrounding this battle:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/chron.html

Reference to declassified documents:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/cuba.html

From what has been written, the event was considered completely successful.

[Heddi]

36. as far as I know, yes, you can go through another country

as I've known people that took a plane to mexico, then hopped a flight to Cuba.

Totall legal, and they never got into any trouble because of it.

also, those people were quite suprised at the extreme differences between REAL Cuba, and the Evil Boogeyman Cuba that the US keeps telling us about.

They were welcomed with open arms, never had any Anti-American sentiment expressed towards them. Found the Cubans very open with regards to their government, and had no fear of expressing their dissatisfaction with some aspects of their government.

AMERICA will have you believe that all Cubans are rabid, anti-americans who will slit your throat if you look at them the wrong way.

However, Cubans aren't like AMERICANS and they do, indeed, know the difference between AMERICAN GOVERNMENT and AMERICAN PEOPLE. They may have ill-will towards the Government, but are very loving and accepting of the citizens of America.

[Judi Lynn]

39. Texan Dan Snow spent time in jail for his Cuba travel activities

(....snip) Dan Snow, a travel agent in Austin, boasts that he has sent many Americans legally and illegally. "Maybe one in 100 have a license," he says.

Snow is the only American who was, as he puts it, "ever convicted for traveling."

In 1990, he spent 45 weekends in federal prison after he was convicted of violating the ban by taking eight fishermen to Cuba in 1987. He says he has since made about 50 trips.

But unlike other travel agencies that are fuzzy about the legalities of their Cuban tours, Snow is upfront. His Web site says straight off: It's illegal to go.

"I give them 12 tips on how to beat Uncle Sam," he say
Snow claims credit for persuading Cuban Customs agents to stop stamping U.S. passports, a practice that continues today. He tells his clients what questions they'll encounter when returning. (snip/...)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/02/12/usat-cuba.htm

Here is his website:

http://www.cubatravelusa.com/about_us.htm

You can contact him there, I believe if you have any questions he can answer. He will be happy to answer any correspondence.

[smallprint]

25. i believe those restrictions are for NEW licenses

existing licenses are STILL LEGAL!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. I've learned more about Cuba in the last 2 days

then I did in the previous 42 years.

I think the most insightful thing I've read is Jimmy Carter s May 14, 2002 speech at the University of Havana.

[BayCityProgressive]

27. I know I will get flamed for this but...

Why would Cubans listen to Carter? Under Carter and most every other US president creating "democracy" has resulted in the US creating a political party in the country and funding it and using terror squads to make the people submit if not totally dismantling democracy and installing fascist dictators. Cuba is a difficult situation. If they open their government up to more political organizations how can they be assured the Miami mob and US government won't send incredible amounts of funding and propaganda to them and possibly start civil war? They already use terror tactics against Cuba. Also there are many different organizations in Cuba besides the CP and you don't have to be a member of CP to be elected. You have to realize they have been under seige for 40 yrs.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. Based on the discussions I've had in the last couple of days

I'd say there is so much polarization and hate on this issue that it is very hard to believe any progress will be made anytime soon.

[Zuni]

31. Under Carter

this did not happen. I can think of 3 democratic elections that the CIA helped overthrow (off the top of my head)--Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954 and Chile in 1973.
(Don't say the Congo, because the Belgians were the main foreign power in the coup that ousted Lumumba)

[Judi Lynn]

38. Hi, BayCityProgressive

Just saw your post regarding Jimmy Carter. You might find this information helpful:

(snip) Travel controls are a relic of the Cold War. Prior to World War II, the right of American citizens to travel where they wished was not challenged by their government. During the Cold War that followed, however, the State Department came up with a blacklist of countries—mostly communist states—to which American citizens could not use their passports to travel. This was, after a time, recognized as the infringement of constitutional rights that it was, the Supreme Court ruling in 1967 that the government could not prosecute American citizens for traveling to countries on the State Department's blacklist, which by then included Cuba.

In 1977, in order to comply fully with the Supreme Court's decision, the Carter administration lifted all controls on the expenditure of currency on travel to Cuba. If American citizens had a right to travel, it argued, then clearly they had a subsidiary right to spend money to do so.

But then enter the Reagan administration, which in 1982 reversed that decision and reimposed currency controls on grounds that Cuba was increasing its support for subversion in Central America and that it refused to negotiate foreign-policy concerns with us. As the author, who was then chief of the U.S. interests section in Havana, has pointed out in his book, The Closest of Enemies, this was simply not true. Quite the contrary, the Cubans had just suspended arms shipments to Central America and indicated to us their full disposition to discuss all outstanding problems. The Reagan administration ignored their overture, with the results that after a time the shipments began again. Meanwhile, the right of American citizens to travel had been curtailed on the basis of outright misrepresentations to the American people.

In imposing these measures, the Reagan administration claimed they were not travel controls per se; rather, they were currency controls authorized by the 1917 Trading With the Enemy Act (Yes! An act dating back to World War I.) Technically that was true; they were currency controls. The result, however, was the same, for if citizens could not pay for their travel, they could not travel. Further, one provision of the act of 1917 specifies that it can be applied only in times of war or national emergency. Clearly, we were not at war. What then was the national emergency? Again, the Reagan administration reached back into the past, citing, under a grandfather clause, the national emergency declared in response to the Korean War of 1950 as the legal underpinning for the currency-cum-travel controls imposed against Cuba in 1982! (snip/...)

http://www.ciponline.org/cuba/ipr/TravelBan.htm

[Zuni]

32. Cuba was not 'fighting apartheid'

they were supporting pro-soviet Afro-Communist regimes in Angola, Ethiopia and Mozambique during civil wars.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Declassified documents indicate a different story

More has been revealed in the last few years on this subject.

(snip) Reuters
April 1, 2002
U.S. Lied About Cuban Role in Angola - Historian

By REUTERS

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States and South Africa intervened in Angola months before Cuban troops arrived in 1975, and not afterward as Washington claimed, according to a historian who recently wrote a book on the subject.

Piero Gleijeses, a professor at Johns Hopkins' School of International Studies, said that President Gerald Ford's administration lied about Cuban military presence to justify its covert operations against Marxist guerrillas. Angola was a Portuguese colony until 1975.

Secretary of State Henry Kissinger denied then and in his memoirs later that the U.S. government knew that South African troops invaded Angola posing as mercenaries in 1975, he said.

He also required the Central Intelligence Agency to rewrite a document on Angola to show an earlier Cuban presence than was accurate, Gleijeses said in an interview.

``Kissinger had the CIA rewrite its report to serve the political aim of the administration, and so the poor CIA ended up lying,'' he said, speaking tongue-in-cheek. (snip/..)

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuba/gleijeses.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(snip) ''My assessment was if the Soviet Union can interfere eight thousand miles from home in an undisputed way and control Zaire's and Zambia's access to the sea, then the Southern countries must conclude that the U.S. has abdicated in Southern Africa,'' Kissinger wrote in his memoirs.

But the new sources paint a much different picture of that time, establishing conclusively, for example, that:

- Cuban President Fidel Castro, who had sent military advisers to help the Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) in the summer of 1975, decided to send troops to Angola on November 4, in response to South Africa's invasion of that country. Washington claimed at the time that South Africa invaded in order to prevent a Cuban take-over of the country.

- The United States knew of South Africa's covert invasion plans in advance and co-operated militarily with its forces, contrary to Kissinger's testimony to Congress at the time, as well as at odds with the version in his memoirs. (snip)

(snip) A critical moment for U.S. strategy in Angola was a national security council meeting on June 27, 1975. Then-secretary of defense James Schlesinger suggested that Washington ''encourage the disintegration of Angola", implying that Washington's main interest in the nation was Cabinda, the oil-rich Angolan enclave surrounded by the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). It was at that meeting that Kissinger indicated the CIA's oversight committee had authorised actions both for money and arms. (snip/...)

http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/apr02/02_10_004.htm

[chapter32]

34. Irrational embargo ...

It is astonishing as to the invalidity of the embargo that Cuban people have suffered from. In 40 years, Cubans have been denied American food products and medical supplies, resulting implausible hardships. In addition, the Cuban economy has lost billions in potential income from being circumscribed from trading freely with the United States. Cuba is poor country of 11 million people that poses absolutely no threat to us. So why continue these harsh sanctions that simply hurt innocent people?

[BayCityProgressive]

35. Not to mention

of course they are poor. What resources do they have besides sugar? They are never going to be a world power country although their people are fairing much better now than they did under capitalism.

[Zuni]

37. Cuba can trade with anyone else

And the whole 'blockade' is a bit of a farce. You can buy all kinds of stuff from the US in Cuba. The blockade leaks like a sive. It is a blockade in name only and rarely enforced.
Infact the US is now allowing shipments of food and medicine to Cuba.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Additional information on the 43+ year old embargo on Cuba

(snip) "Denial of Food and Medicine:
The Impact Of The U.S. Embargo
On The Health And Nutrition In Cuba"
-An Executive Summary-
American Association for World Health Report
Summary of Findings
March 1997




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After a year-long investigation, the American Association for World Health has determined that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has dramatically harmed the health and nutrition of large numbers of ordinary Cuban citizens. As documented by the attached report, it is our expert medical opinion that the U.S. embargo has caused a significant rise in suffering-and even deaths-in Cuba. For several decades the U.S. embargo has imposed significant financial burdens on the Cuban health care system. But since 1992 the number of unmet medical needs patients going without essential drugs or doctors performing medical procedures without adequate equipment-has sharply accelerated. This trend is directly linked to the fact that in 1992 the U.S. trade embargo-one of the most stringent embargoes of its kind, prohibiting the sale of food and sharply restricting the sale of medicines and medical equipment-was further tightened by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.

A humanitarian catastrophe has been averted only because the Cuban government has maintained a high level of budgetary support for a health care system designed to deliver primary and preventive health care to all of its citizens. Cuba still has an infant mortality rate half that of the city of Washington, D.C.. Even so, the U.S. embargo of food and the de facto embargo on medical supplies has wreaked havoc with the island's model primary health care system. The crisis has been compounded by the country's generally weak economic resources and by the loss of trade with the Soviet bloc.

Recently four factors have dangerously exacerbated the human effects of this 37-year-old trade embargo. All four factors stem from little-understood provisions of the U.S. Congress' 1992 Cuban Democracy Act (CDA):

A Ban on Subsidiary Trade: Beginning in 1992, the Cuban Democracy Act imposed a ban on subsidiary trade with Cuba. This ban has severely constrained Cuba's ability to import medicines and medical supplies from third country sources. Moreover, recent corporate buyouts and mergers between major U.S. and European pharmaceutical companies have further reduced the number of companies permitted to do business with Cuba.
Licensing Under the Cuban Democracy Act: The U.S. Treasury and Commerce Departments are allowed in principle to license individual sales of medicines and medical supplies, ostensibly for humanitarian reasons to mitigate the embargo's impact on health care delivery. In practice, according to U.S. corporate executives, the licensing provisions are so arduous as to have had the opposite effect. As implemented, the licensing provisions actively discourage any medical commerce. The number of such licenses granted-or even applied for since 1992-is minuscule. Numerous licenses for medical equipment and medicines have been denied on the grounds that these exports "would be detrimental to U.S. foreign policy interests."
Shipping Since 1992:The embargo has prohibited ships from loading or unloading cargo in U.S. ports for 180 days after delivering cargo to Cuba. This provision has strongly discouraged shippers from delivering medical equipment to Cuba. Consequently shipping costs have risen dramatically and further constricted the flow of food, medicines, medical supplies and even gasoline for ambulances. From 1993 to 1996, Cuban companies spent an additional $8.7 million on shipping medical imports from Asia, Europe and South America rather than from the neighboring United States.
Humanitarian Aid: Charity is an inadequate alternative to free trade in medicines, medical supplies and food. Donations from U.S. non-governmental organizations and international agencies do not begin to compensate for the hardships inflicted by the embargo on the Cuban public health system. In any case, delays in licensing and other restrictions have severely discouraged charitable contributions from the U.S. (snip/...)

~~~~ link ~~~~

[BayCityProgressive]

42. LOL

I love how some people try to spin and say the US embargo has a minor or no effect. If it was ineffective we wouldn't have been using it for 43 years we would have just invaded them.

[Darranar]

50. The US has done stupid things in the past...

and it will do stupid things in the future.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Undiscussed aspects of the embargo

The U.S. Embargo and the Wrath of God
by Juan Gonzalez
In These Times, March 8, 1998


(snip) Back in Washington, the proponents of the embargo insist that needed medical supplies can still get to Cuba. But the 300 page AAWH report, "Denial of Food and Medicine: The Impact of the U.S. Embargo on Health and Nutrition in Cuba," provides startling documentation of dozens of cases in which Cuban hospitals could not secure the medicine and equipment they needed because of the sharp restrictions imposed by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.

Dr. Julian Ruiz, a surgeon at Calixto Garcia, recounts his 15-day search last September for a Z-Stent Introducer, a small contraption that he needed to operate on a man with colon cancer. Not one could be found in the country. The manufacturer of the Z-Stent, Wilson Cooke Medical Inc. of Winston-Salem, N.C., refused to sell it to the Cubans. Ruiz' staff, scouring the world, finally found a Z-Stent they could buy in Mexico. By that time, the man's cancer had spread.
Exacerbating the shortages are takeovers of foreign firms by U.S. pharmaceutical companies. In 1995, for example, Upjohn Co. merged with Pharmacia, a major Swedish drug company that had been supplying Cuba with millions of dollars worth of chemotherapy drugs, growth hormones and equipment for its medical labs. Within three months, Pharmacia closed its Havana office and stopped all sales.

That same year, Nunc, a Danish firm that supplied Cuba with materials for HIV and hepatitis screening tests, was absorbed by Sybron International of Wisconsin. Eight days after the merger, Nunc executives notified Cuba by fax: "Much to our regret, we have to inform you that unfortunately our cooperation of many years has to be terminated.... In future, we therefore have to follow the directions laid down by the U.S. Government in relation to Cuba."
Nothing has drawn the Catholic Church and the Cuban government closer together than their mutual opposition to the U.S. blockade of medicine and food supplies to Cuba's people.

"Even in warfare, you don't bomb hospitals and schools," says Patrick Sullivan, the pastor of a church in Santa Clara and the only American priest permanently stationed in the country.
A Cuban official in charge of finding and paying for food from abroad recounted her frustration with the embargo. "To ship a thousand tons of powdered milk from New Zealand, I must pay $150,000, when bringing the same amount from Miami would only cost me $25,000," she says. (snip/...)

~~~~ link ~~~~

[BayCityProgressive]

45. And I wonder what effects

it has on the ability for them to get other resources not just medical and food. Cuba is a small sugar producing island and I think they are running it economically as best you can expect for the circumstances. I don't expect it to ever be some great world power but I think it would do significantly better without the embargo and constant threat of war and terrorism.

[Judi Lynn]

47. Here's a very short look at terrorism launched at Cuba

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/142.html

Another short look at terrorism against Cuba:

http://www.cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0073.htm

You can spend TONS of time looking through the 16,800 entries for exile terrorism Cuban, which should give you a good idea of what has been hurled at Cuba from Florida and New Jersey, at the hands of former Cuban citizens who left Cuba during/after the Revolution. It seems you already understand the first big wave of exiles contained people who worked in the Batista government. The Batistianos emptied the Cuban National Treasury before they left Cuba, something which is not often discussed, either.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=exile+terrorism+Cuban&btnG=Google+Search

[Judi Lynn]

48. Actually, it might help to do a little more reading

(snip) How has the embargo harmed the Cuban people?


From "The US attack on Cuba's health," Canadian Medical Association Journal, August 1, 1997,

In 1992 Cuba was in a severe economic depression, largely resulting from a loss of preferential trade with the Soviet bloc. Cuba turned to US foreign subsidiaries, from whom it received $500-600 million per year in imports -- 90% of which was food and medicine. The American Public Health Association warned the US government that tightening the embargo would lead to the abrupt cessation of this supply of essential goods and result in widespread famine. Indeed, 5 months after passage of the CDA , food shortages in Cuba set the scene for the worst epidemic of neurologic disease this century. More than 50,000 people suffered from optic neuropathy, deafness, loss of sensation and pain in the extremities, and a spinal cord disorder that impaired walking and bladder control."

On September 15, 1992, The Miami Herald ("Stiffer Rules on Cuba Enforced," p. 11A) reported:

The Bush administration for the first time has enforced a new regulation denying foreign ships entry to U.S. ports if they are trading with Cuba, State Department officials said Monday. A Greek-flagged freighter carrying Chinese rice to Cuba was turned away from the harbor at Long Beach, Calif. on Saturday after U.S. Customs agents alerted the Treasury Department, the officials said. The ship, which had sought servicing at the port, was ordered away under a 5-month-old U.S. policy...

The embargo, it would seem, was meant to starve the Cuban people into submission! The genocidal intent of this policy should be obvious. (snip/...)

http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ108.html

[Judi Lynn]

49. Interesting Cuba threads from the archives

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forum_archive_html/DCForumID61/1242.html

~~~~ link ~~~~

The reading material people bring to share can be a turning point for some people. It was for me.

A quote from Nelson Mandela, concerning the relationship of South Africa to Cuba:

(snip) "If today all South Africans enjoy the rights of democracy; if they are able at last to address the grinding poverty of a system that denied them even the most basic amenities of life, it is also because of Cuba's selfless support for the struggle to free all of South Africa's people and the countries of our region from the inhumane and destructive system of apartheid.
For that, we thank the Cuban people from the bottom of our heart."

Speech by President Nelson Mandela at the Banquet in Honour of President Castro of Cuba, September 1998
<http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mandela/1998/nm0904.htm> (snip)

Quote provided by Say_What, in a D.U. archive:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=713&forum=DCForumID31

[The Commie]

53. The reason behind the restrictions.

I think it is because people will know that the US lied to it's people about how bad Cuba is, the travel restiction's purpose is to keep people from finding out "Cuba is a dictatorship" BS is a myth propagated by the butcher Cuban-Americans in Miami.

[bemildred]

54. Welcome to DU, Commie.

I think you are right.

There is also a matter of not letting Cuba and Mr. Castro
be seen to thumb their nose at Uncle Sugar with impunity.
Others might imitate.

[Osolomia]

55. The embargo remains because of the USA’s politics not Cuba’s

If the Dem Party's reason for not lifting the embargo now is Cuba’s recent crackdown on “dissidents” then what was the Dems reason for not lifting it Before Bush?

It’s been over 10 years since the Soviets left Cuba and Americans are the only people on the planet who still don’t get it.

Cuba’s “human rights violations” are no justification for trying to economically cripple the country, if they were then apply the same standards to all countries or forever be branded a hypocrite.

So long as Dems keep letting Florida’s Batistiano “exiles” walk all over them and Cuba they will. Just watch!

US is hardly one to talk about democracy indeed.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Here's a look into what the Bush diplomat, James Cason has been doing

in Cuba, since he was recently appointed to fill the position of another head of the Interests Sections who had TRULY worn out her welcome, Vicki Huddleston:

(snip) 04/25/03-
Cuba-L Analysis-
Cuba Crackdown: A Revolt Against
the National Security Strategy
By Robert Sandels

Since becoming principal officer at the U.S. Interests Section in Havana in September 2002, James Cason has increased official U.S. connections with Cuban dissidents. Entering directly into Cuba domestic politics, Cason helped launch the youth wing of the dissident Partido Liberal Cubano. Nowhere in the world, said Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque, would it be legal for a foreigner to
participate in the formation of a political party.

In October 2002, Cason invited a group of dissidents to meet with U.S. newspaper editors at his residence in Havana. Although it has become routine for heads of the U.S. mission to seek out dissidents, it was unusual to meet them at home.

Feb. 24 of this year, he participated in a meeting of the dissident Assembly for the Promotion of Civil Society at the home of prominent dissident Marta Beatriz Roque. Also present at the meeting were several reporters to whom Cason repeated his criticisms of President Fidel Castro's government and reaffirmed U.S. support for dissidents.

Cason organized two other such meetings at his residence in March even after receiving a formal complaint from the Foreign Ministry.

In a recent television interview in Miami, Cason said the help he gave dissidents was "moral and spiritual" in nature. But, according to the testimony of several Cuban security agents who infiltrated the organizations that received U.S. support, the Interests Section became a general headquarters and office space for dissidents. Some of them, including Marta Beatriz Roque, had passes signed by Cason that allowed them free access to the Interests Section where they could use computers, telephones, and office machines.

The State Department calls these activities "outreach." However, under the United States Code, similar "outreach" by a foreign
diplomat in the United States could result in criminal prosecution and a 10-year prison sentence for anyone "who agrees to operate within the United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or official (Title 18, section 951 of the United States Code). (snip/...)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/change-links/message/29115

(This snip comes from an article offered at a Yahoo Cuba News group. Membership may be necessary to read the entire article. Not sure...)

[bemildred]

57. Sort of like that twit Shapiro in Venezuela.

[Judi Lynn]

58. You got THAT right!

Both carrying out the right-wing will: Do everything possible to control Latin America permanently.

Some interesting observations on Cuba from 1897, the Undersecretary of War, John C. Breckenridge:

The island of Cuba, a larger territory, has a greater population density than Puerto Rico, although it is unevenly distributed. This population is made up of whites, blacks, Asians and people who are a mixture of these races. The inhabitants are generally indolent and apathetic. As for their learning, they range from the most refined to the most vulgar and abject. Its people are indifferent to religion, and the majority are therefore immoral and simultaneously they have strong passions and are very sensual. Since they only possess a vague notion of what is right and wrong, the people tend to seek pleasure not through work, but through violence. As a logical consequence of this lack of morality, there is a great disregard for life.

It is obvious that the immediate annexation of these disturbing elements into our own federation in such large numbers would be sheer madness, so before we do that we must clean up the country, even if this means using the methods Divine Providence used on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army. The allied army must be constantly engaged in reconnaissance and vanguard actions so that the Cuban army is irreparably caught between two fronts and is forced to undertake dangerous and desperate measures.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm

Disgusting, isn't it?

[bemildred]

59. The colonial mind operates in much the same way

where ever you find it. This fellow doesn't seem to
let logic get in the way of his "thinking", though:

Since they only possess a vague notion of what is right and wrong, the
people tend to seek pleasure not through work, but through violence.

You got that?