Spreading Saudi Fundamentalism in U.S.

[LARED]

...........

the night of Sept. 10, 2001, Hussayen stayed at a Herndon hotel that also housed three of the Saudi hijackers who would slam an aircraft into the Pentagon the next day, though there is no evidence that he had contact with them.

Hussayen, who was unavailable for comment, is accused of no wrongdoing. The purpose of his meetings remains, in fact, a mystery.

But his travels form a road map to some of the religious and charitable groups in America dedicated to the spread of Wahhabism, the rigid and puritanical strain of Islam dominant in Saudi Arabia. In recent months, authorities have begun to focus on the role of radical Wahhabi clerics and organizations, including some that Hussayen came to see here, in exhorting followers to violence.

Backed by money from Saudi Arabia, Wahhabis have built or taken over hundreds of mosques in North America and opened branches of Saudi universities here for the training of imams as part of the effort to spread their beliefs, which are intolerant of Christianity, Judaism and even other strains of Islam.

.........


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31402-2003Oct1.html


Reading stuff like this makes me wonder how long it will be until buses getting blown up in the US are routine.

[Darranar]

1. What about the spread of Christian fundamentalism in the US?

Even more widespread, and about as - if not more so - intolerant as Wahabism.

[LARED]

2. The last time I checked

Christian fundamentalist weren't crashing planes into buildings. Also Wahabism is far less tolerant that any form of Christian fundamentalism.

[Maple]

3. What religion

was McVeigh then?

[LARED]

5. Two points

1. Contrary to popular opinion I do not think McVeigh was a Christian fundamentalist.

and

2. To compare one (possibly a few) so called Christian nuts cases to a widespread religion as dangerous and intolerant as Wahabism is dubious at best.

[Darranar]

4. Pat Robertson...

and Osama Bin Laden seem equally intolerant to me.

Okay, they aren't crashing planes into buildings. Instead, they're trying to take away a woman's right to choose, trying to deny gays equal rights, aiding the vile US foreign policy that has killed thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan, and trying to unite Chruch and State.

They're both wrong, and they're pretty much equally harmful.

[LARED]

6. They may both be wrong

but to create a moral equivalence between Pat Robertson's Christianity and Wahibism is a real stretch for me.

[Darranar]

7. Uh, how?

How exactly are they different?

[Jim Sagle]

8. Already answered. Try to keep up.

[Darranar]

9. When?

Oh sorry, I forgot. Their methods of killing are different. My mistake.

[DulceDecorum]

13. God told me to kill you.

The Muslims don't believe in paying or recieving interest on a loan and since they have petrodollars (soon to become petro-euros or petro-dinars)and since there are millions of them worldwide and Islam is spreading at a fantastic rate, and since and they have their own banking system, the Muslim refusal to paricipate in interest-generating endeavors, is crashing the global financial markets.

The Christians and the Jews heartily believe in exacting the maximum interest possible out of the hapless citizenry.

Observe the actions of Queen Isabella (who has almost become a SAINT) and her dealings with the merchant class of Spain (aka the Inquisition) and the Conquistadores in their massacres of the gold-rich peoples of latin America.
Recall the Cusaders of the past few centuries and their plagarism of Arabic numerals, science and medicine.
Behold the modern money-grubbing diciples of a 900 foot ransom-exacting "Jesus" are most hevily invested in creating and perpetrating a war against Islam in general and oil-rich republics in particular - starting with Saudi Arabia.

It matters not one whit to the cash-strapped desperadoes, that NINE of the alleged Saudi hijackers are alive and well.
What does matter is that passions be inflamed against the Saudis so that the so-called "christians" be inspired to embark upon a crusade against Mecca and Medina.
To this end they will smear and bastardize Muslims in general and the Saudis in particular because the Saudis have withdrawn their support of the US dollar and this has effectively destroyed the financial future of the USA.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,778380,00.html

[Character Assassin]

21. God told me to clear some things up for you.

The Muslims don't believe in paying or recieving interest on a loan and since they have petrodollars (soon to become petro-euros or petro-dinars)

Quite incorrect. They don't believe in interest specifically because Islam prohibits it, not because they have petrodollars. The Koran says that despite the fact that they appear the same, profits from commerce and from those generated by money-lending are fundamentally different. Specifically Sura 2, verse 275.

and since there are millions of them worldwide and Islam is spreading at a fantastic rate, and since and they have their own banking system, the Muslim refusal to paricipate in interest-generating endeavors, is crashing the global financial markets.

Absolute rubbish. 'Crashing the global financial markets'? Where, when and how? Without doubt, Islamic finance can no longer be dismissed as marginal player as it adopts (and often in conjunction with western financial institutions) a "me too" strategic supplier position. But most often it is perceived only as a highly complementary addition to conventional finance and an increasingly important component of the development of the Muslim world.

The asset base of Islamic financing in total is estimated to be around $230 billion, which is quite small by comparative industry standards.

The Christians and the Jews heartily believe in exacting the maximum interest possible out of the hapless citizenry.

Hey, nice meaningless generalization.

Observe the actions of Queen Isabella (who has almost become a SAINT) and her dealings with the merchant class of Spain (aka the Inquisition) and the Conquistadores in their massacres of the gold-rich peoples of latin America.

Which have absolutely zero to do with the modern financial industry and its various manifestations.

Recall the Cusaders of the past few centuries and their plagarism of Arabic numerals, science and medicine.

Oh, you mean like how the Arabs plagarized the same from India? So what?

Behold the modern money-grubbing diciples of a 900 foot ransom-exacting "Jesus" are most hevily invested in creating and perpetrating a war against Islam in general and oil-rich republics in particular - starting with Saudi Arabia.

Which ones, and where have they expressed this?

It matters not one whit to the cash-strapped desperadoes, that NINE of the alleged Saudi hijackers are alive and well.

Please support that contention.

What does matter is that passions be inflamed against the Saudis so that the so-called "christians" be inspired to embark upon a crusade against Mecca and Medina.

Uh-huh. Right. Please do detail these upcoming crusades.

To this end they will smear and bastardize Muslims in general and the Saudis in particular because the Saudis have withdrawn their support of the US dollar and this has effectively destroyed the financial future of the USA.

You clearly have no understanding of financial markets, what state they're currently in, who has done what and to what degree in terms of financial support and the reasons and results of having done so.

[DulceDecorum]

24. Well since i have no understanding

of financial markets,
what is the point of me saying anything more,
O Character Assassin?

[Character Assassin]

27. I feel obligated to assist the 'financial market challenged'

You made two assertions that (a) you have yet to substantiate or quantify in real terms and (b) are directly contradicted by currently available data. To whit:

and since there are millions of them worldwide and Islam is spreading at a fantastic rate, and since and they have their own banking system, the Muslim refusal to paricipate in interest-generating endeavors, is crashing the global financial markets.

Kindly support that statement by indicating which markets are crashing, when these crashes began and to what degree they have developed.

To this end they will smear and bastardize Muslims in general and the Saudis in particular because the Saudis have withdrawn their support of the US dollar and this has effectively destroyed the financial future of the USA.

You quote an article dated August 21, 2002, whose claims have not only been proven incorrect and whose effects have not come to pass, but you extrapolate wildly that the events cited have 'effectively destroyed' our financial future.

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:4NNNrgIpaRUJ:www.saudi-american-forum.org/Newsletters/SAF_Essay_22.pdf+Saudi+investments+United+States+total+value&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

"In February 2003, total worldwide Saudi investment, including investment in the United States and Europe, was conservatively estimated at U.S. $700 billion. The United States received approximately 60% of the global Saudi investment allocation.

There was much speculation about post September 11, 2001 Saudi geographical investment reallocation. One initial report of Saudi financial flows out of the United States estimated that $200 billion had left the United States between the autumn of 2001 and spring of 2002. The U.S. Treasury Department data on foreign portfolio movement includes Saudi Arabia in the category of "Other Asian". Treasury data revealed that between April and June of 2001, less than $1 billion had actually left the U.S. stock and bond markets."

Hope that clears things up for you.

[DulceDecorum]

29. I am absolutely certain

that if I remain silent, my character will not be assassinated.

[Character Assassin]

37. And what you stated will remain as transparently false as before.

Good idea.

[DulceDecorum]

43. You are right

I DO have some understanding of financial markets.

[w13rd0]

10. Nonsense...

...the fact is that most Christian fundamentalists don't actually have enough faith or courage to strap bombs to themselves to carry out their acts of violence. They'd rather do so with a scope, propping the rifle up on a stack of Bibles. Many of them are DEEPLY intolerant and bigotted, as much so as a Wahhabi zealot. Difference is we have LAWS here that seperate religious whackos from the reigns of power, or at least we are supposed to have those laws. The Democracy that the jackboots are trying to do away with is the only thing keeping the religious extremists (of all stripes, to quote Tom Friedman <sp>) from doing the same sorts of things here on a regular basis. Do away with that democracy, and we'll be seeing jesus jihads to save the sinners, or kill them outright. Our democracy, our system of checks and balances, is what has, over the years, smoothed out the rough edges of totalitarian religious whackjobs that have played grabass with power. That democracy is today being destroyed. Oh, and those "in power" aren't usually the ones that carry out acts of desperation in nations in which they don't hold power. But were we to start treating the Jerry Falwells as we do the Husseyans, they'd be resorting to such tactics in short order...

[LARED]

11. Speaking of nonsense.

the fact is that most Christian fundamentalists don't actually have enough faith or courage to strap bombs to themselves to carry out their acts of violence.

is nonsense. Outside of a few nuts cases that call themselves christians, Fundamentalists do not advocate violence.

So are you just taking an opportunity to bash Christians, or do you really think Wahhidism and Salafism is a benign form of Islam. Nothing to worry about. That they represent the same kind on impact on America as Christian Fundamentalism?

[varun]

12. Both Islam and Christianity

are monotheistic. They are, by definition, intolerant of any other way of reaching "God" than "their" WAY.

However, in practice, Modern Christianity has lost the missionary zeal that it once had. Large number of Islamic followers, however, are still literal believers in the Quran. To them, any infidel is worthy of being converted or killed.

[DulceDecorum]

14. Why are there CHRISTIAN missionaries in Iraq?

if Christianity has lost it's missionary zeal?
Why did those two women go to Afghanistan, if NOT to evangalise the Muslim population there?

Ever met a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness?
They are required to dedicate a portion of their life to spreading the word.

Fundies will tell you, in no uncertain terms, that anyone who is not a christian
(preferably of their denomination)
will burn forever in the fires of hell.
They even have websites set up with messages for those who are left behind when the Rature happens (Jesus comes back and takes away the Bible-believers up into heaven) and everyone other than the Chosen are plunged into the Tribulation.

Before you accept the previous opinion as gospel, mosey over to where Billy Graham and his son are preaching or go down to your local Walmart and check out the back page of any book written by Tim LaHaye.

Or even better, look at the Justice Department (and Gitmo) under Ashcroft.
And do not have any pity on those Muslims imprisoned without trial or for no known offense. Just remember that they are MUSLIMS and that is all the explanation one needs to justify their mistreatment.

And in Iraq,
the Crusaders led by the majesty of George Walker Bush,
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s819685.htm
inspired by Halliburton,
and prepared to lay down life and limb for the glory that is oil, mete out Infinite Justice under the maxim:
kill them all, let God sort them out.
http://www.heartlight.org/fast/

Oh, bow down to him
for he is who he is.
http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org/
http://www.prayforgeorgewbush.com/pages/236635/index.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s819685.htm

He has shown us that he has no tolerance of foreigners
whether at home or abroad,
and we have seen his forgiveness of Enron, WorldCom and cronies.
His is the election,
and the the machines programmed by Diebold
so we may gaze upon his smirk
for ever and ever
Amen.

[varun]

16. would you like to live in...

fundamentalist USA or tolerant Saudi Arabia?

[DulceDecorum]

25. The Saudis

have more money.
And the puppetmaster's hand appears to be losing it's grip.

But Tito had the correct idea.

[LARED]

26. Well here's what awaits you in Saudi

http://www.amnesty.ca/SaudiArabia/5.htm

Women in Saudi Arabia who walk unaccompanied, or are in the company of a man who is neither their husband nor a close relative, are at risk of arrest on suspicion of prostitution or other “moral” offences.

Nieves, a Filipina who was working as a maid in Riyadh in 1992, was invited by a married couple to celebrate the wife’s birthday at a restaurant. She and a female friend decided to go. At the restaurant they were joined by a male friend of the couple. A group of mutawa’een (religious police) entered the restaurant, saw the group and arrested them. They suspected Nieves of being there for an introduction to the male friend of the couple. Nieves denied the accusation, but was deceived into signing a confession written in Arabic which she understood was a release order. That confession was the sole basis of her conviction and sentence — 25 days’ imprisonment and 60 lashes which were carried out.

Women in Saudi Arabia, whether Saudi Arabian or foreign, emerge time and again as victims of discrimination and human rights violations because of the gender bias in law, social mores and traditions. While women have gained some ground in terms of economic rights, their civil and political rights are systematically violated.

Equal treatment for women and men is a fundamental principle of international human rights standards. Yet in Saudi Arabia discriminatory practices against women are not only prevalent, they are also in some cases required by law.

Strict segregation of the sexes, an integral part of Saudi Arabian society, has adverse and unequal effects on women, who are denied equal educational opportunities and may work only in certain vocations.

.........

[DulceDecorum]

32. Aww heck, a gal can get that at Arnold's house

anyday of the week when Maria is out shopping.
Thanks to some stupid republican women, the ERA failed to be ratified in the United States. So women there are equal to Mr. Jack Squat.
The FOREIGN women in Saudi Ariabia may be treated differently, but
how does this treatment differ from the way that DOMESTIC women are treated in say, Utah?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1339341.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/05/19/utah.polygamy/

Or Nevada?
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada

Or Congress?
http://usndemvet.blogspot.com/usndemvet/zizka-list.htm
http://www.now.org/issues/harass/packwood.html
http://www.cnn.com/US/9508/reynolds/conviction/

Or the Citadel?
http://www.anomalous-images.com/news/news044.html

Or the Army?
http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/03/pentagon.miseries/

Or the Navy?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/navy/tailhook/91.html

Or the Air Force?
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/29/academy.assaults/

Sheesh.
I think maybe a woman is safe only in her grave.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1957240.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2183271.stm
But that doesn't seem to work in all cases.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/35533.stm

[LARED]

33. DD

read this part of what I posted and then read what you posted. You obviously didn't read the post. All women, foreign and domestic can legally (sanctioned by the state) be treated with no or little regard for rights that we take for granted every day in the USA.

DD if you really believe there is some kind of equivalence between human and women rights between the USA and Saudi Arabia, I'm speechless. I can only suggest you spend some time outside of the USA in order to get a hint at how great things are here compared to much of the world.

[DulceDecorum]

35. How much time have YOU

spent outside the US?
How much time have you spent INSIDE Saudi Arabia?
You are going by what the PR man told you and
only a fool believes his own press.

Your mind is already made up and all you are doing is sifting and posting those authors and articles which lend substance to your prejudices. An open mind is one which looks at ALL the facts and determines if they are indeed facts, BEFORE one weighs and sifts the evidence.
It is only AFTER this, that an open-minded person comes to a decision.
http://www.hrw.org/us/usdom.php
http://www.hrw.org/mideast/saudiarabia.php

What rights do women have in the USA?
http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/topics_fs.pl?theme=39&search=&matches=
What rights do HUMANS have in the USA?
http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_000322_eugenics_feature.html
http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/list_topics.pl?theme=39&search=&matches=
What rights do CHILDREN have in the USA?
http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=wh_mission_maryellen
http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=wh_mission

Now tell me what is happeneing in Saudi Arabia that so justifies taking the nano-speck out of their eye while the US carries around an entire Redwood Forest within their cornea?

Better you should dedicate yourself to undoing the damage done
by the Supreme Court of the United States of America
upon the Planet of earth by their decisions in:
Dred Scott v. Sandford
http://www.landmarkcases.org/dredscott/courtsystem.html
http://www.landmarkcases.org/dredscott/background3.html

Buck v. Bell
http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/56/
http://www.mit.edu/afs/athena/course/17/17.245/www/BuckvBell.htm

Bush v. Gore
http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/766/
http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/florida.html

Lared, forget the Saudis.
Since you are an American,
it is a far better thing to do than you have ever done before
to try to free yourself
from
The Twilight Zone.
http://cronus.com/zone/
http://cronus.com/home.asp
Unless, of course, Lared, you are a shriver.

SHRIVER
noun, a Democrat who works hard to ensure that Republicans are placed in high office.

[LARED]

39. Just wondering,

do you read the stuff you post?

[DulceDecorum]

45. Do you

understand what you post?

[LARED]

51. Gee I hope so.

It makes me wonder whether you are reading the same stuff I am when you post a bunch of links that clearly contradicts this statement.

Now tell me what is happeneing in Saudi Arabia that so justifies taking the nano-speck out of their eye while the US carries around an entire Redwood Forest within their cornea?

Your premise that human rights in Saudi are far superior to the USA is frankly laughable. Particularly womens rights.

[DulceDecorum]

59. Talk to a woman in the US

Oops
What am I thinking.
They all have to agree with you
or else......


Saudi rule looser than Pentagon's
By Edward T. Pound, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — The U.S. military directive requiring women deployed to Saudi Arabia to wear a head-to-toe robe conflicts with the official guidance that the Saudi government gives to foreigners and also with the State Department's policy for its employees.
The military policy provoked controversy last week when an outspoken U.S. Air Force female pilot complained that the dress code discriminates against women. Military officials defended the policy. They said it was implemented years ago out of respect for Islamic law and Saudi customs and to protect its women from harassment by the mutawa, or religious police, and from potential terrorists.
However, the Saudi government does not require non-Muslim women to wear a dark robe known as an abaya, according to the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh, the Saudi capital. The official guidance, issued by the Saudi Embassy in Washington, says that foreigners should dress conservatively but they are not required to wear the robe, U.S. officials said.
The State Department bases its dress policy on the Saudi guidance. Its employees are not expected to wear an abaya when on official duty. When off-duty, women use their own judgment about wearing the garment.
Military commanders in Saudi Arabia require women to wear an abaya and a headscarf when they leave their installations. Maj. Martha McSally, the senior female fighter pilot in the Air Force, challenged that policy in an interview with USA TODAY last week.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-04-24-mcsally.htm

Ahahhhhhahahahahahah
I obeyed your directive to laugh
O engineering one.

[DulceDecorum]

63. Saudi Princess Charged with Beating Servant

Two other stories surfaced this past week illustrating the intrigue and corruption in Florida that may have contributed to the Sept 11 attacks.
An AP article last week told of a Saudi Princess, a niece of King Fahd, charged with beating her servant and throwing her down the stairs.
The assault occurred in Orlando, Florida. The Saudi Princess’s attorney says she has diplomatic immunity. But what we found most interesting in the story was the revelation that several years ago another Saudi princess was also accused of beating her servants...also in Orlando.
It's a Small World After All, huh?
In that attack, three Sheriff’s deputies stood by and watched, though they had all taken oaths to uphold American law. They were later 'disciplined' for not stopping the beating.
Money doesn't talk. It swears.
http://www.madcowprod.com/index11a.html

You know what,
I have been trying to find out where Orlando Florida is located in Saudi Arabia but I can only find one such place with that name and that place is the southern part of USA.
Lared has given me the impression that that sort of thing does not happen in the USA.
Oh well,
back to the atlas.

[LARED]

65. Thank you for

posting another link that backs up my point.

[DulceDecorum]

72. You are welcome

I posted a link about the level of assistance a woman can expect from the police in the USA if she is being thrashed to an inch of her life.
And a link about the manner in which certain US officers subjugate women and then blame it on Saudi Arabians.

Here are some more links on the same subject.

Police response
The reaction of police personnel often frustrates and undermines the battered woman's attempts to get protection and help. The training manuals used by most local police forces follow the old advice (since revised) of the International Association of Police Chiefs to avoid arrest, restore the peace, and leave.
The police do not make the safety of the victim their prime concern, and she frequently is in mortal danger. The Kansas City Police Department found that police had been called at least once before the actual murder took place in 85 percent of domestic homicide cases; and in 50 percent of the cases, the police had been called five times, reports Susan Jackson in an unpublished work, "In Search of Equal Protection for Battered Wives."
A woman who has been beaten may tell the police that she wishes to make a citizen's arrest, but most people are not aware of this right, and the police rarely tell victims about it.
In New York City, 59 abused women resorted to a class action suit against New York City policemen and family court personnel for unlawfully denying them assistance after they reported beatings.
http://womhist.binghamton.edu/vawa/doc1.htm

Oh lookee here,
a Public Service Announcement with a built in alibi.
If you have a computer DO NOT get connected to the Internet. There are way too many forums and newsgroups available that might shed light on her situation and awaken her to different way of thinking. This is a common mistake among amateur boxers. Keep her entertained by purchasing Once were Warriors, The Gift and Cobb on DVD and send out for a catalog of extra conservative Muslim films.
http://www.garbage-house.com/humor/wife-beater-tips.shtml

Now,
WHO would want or need
such despicable information?
"The military has an enormous investment in each of its soldiers, but especially for those in elite units like Special Forces. That makes them very reluctant to take any action, knowing that the military would have to shrink quite a bit if they got rid of all the known abusers," she said.
http://www.rense.com/general32/epi.htm

What happens to those women who
"awaken to a different way of thinking?
(WOMENSENEWS)--Cynthia Eng was married to a high-ranking Air Force missile launch officer. Within the first few years, he began beating and raping her. Soon he would also beat and molest their children.
As they moved from base to base, she tried over and over to get help. One base commander told her, "No officer's wife on my base is going to a shelter," while police departments from California to Ohio told her, "This is a military matter--we can't interfere."
The Family Service Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, she said, went so far as to blame her.
In 1992, after 10 years of abuse of her and her children, Cynthia shot her husband with one of his own weapons. She served three and a half years in an Ohio prison before being acquitted in a second trial. It featured her desperate 911 call in which she recounted her efforts to get help.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm?aid=479

You know,
this harkens back to the reasons why we just have to go deal with those nasty Saudis ASAP.
And as for you damn fool women out there is cyberspace,
you better thank your lucky stars that you live in the USA
where the US police are standing by,
and the US military will protect you,
just like they did on September 11, 2001.

Hush that mouth before I take you to Orlando Florida and give you a USDA approved knuckle sandwich.
Hmmph. Women.

[DulceDecorum]

62. Incidentally

how come you do not ever seem to have any problem with anything said or done by the current administration?
It seems to me that you ALWAYS ignore their misdeeds and launch tirades against anyone or anything that offers even the mildest critisism of the current residents of the White House.
You just blew your way past Dred Scot, Carrie Buck and Al Gore like you don't give a damn what happened to them, as long as you get to hammer the Saudis who did not bomb anyone but who DID withraw billions from US financial institutions and crashed the Fed.

Dred Scott has NEVER been overturned.
Which is why the US citizens who are currently under the US flag in Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, Liberia, Guam, American Samoa, the Marshalls Islands, Vanatu and Washington DC are denied the right to vote in presidential and other federal elections.
This does not bother you as much as the teachings of a single islamic denomonation in Saudi Arabia.

Buck vs Bell has never been overturned.
"Three generations of imbeciles are enough." said Jusice Oliver Wendell Holmes when he sentenced Carrie Buck to a hysterectomy.
And while I sincerely do hope that we are finished with Republican presidential die-nastys, this statement kicked off wholesale genocide in the name of eugenics. The nazis used to quote from this case as they exterminated entire populations in Europe. Within the US, this case has been used to justify the forced sterilization of persons who found themselves in need of public assistance. And it has also been used to justify segregation and ill-treatment of those who are brown or black or who have different religious beliefs, such as the Wahabbis of Saudi Arabia.

Bush vs Gore has never been overturned.
Al Gore won the 2002 election. Furthermore he was a Democrat and in case you have forgotten, Lared, this place is called the DEMOCRATIC Underground because the poeople who frequent it are assumed to DEMOCRATS or progressives working for democracy.
In a democracy, VOTES ARE COUNTED and those elected to office are ONLY authorised to represent and work for the general public of that nation and that nation ALONE. We have enough problems with the current regime but you do not seem to care for those Americans who have lost their jobs to a Bushcompanyexodus or their limbs in a Bushwar. All you seem to concern yourself with is the amount of houris that can dance for the pleasure of a Saudi prince who practices a form of Islam you call Wahhabism.

Lared,
your posts in this thread appear to mirror sentiments such as these:

The Saudis and their agents must be booted out of Iraq to prevent further casualties to the Coalition forces. SOUTH OF THE IRAQ-SAUDI BORDER, THE HOUSE THAT SAUD BUILT MUST BE EVACUATED BEFORE IT COLLAPSES ON IT'S SUBJECTS HEADS. And here at home, it is long past time to demand a housecleaning at the Saudi embassy in Washington.
Let Bandar go home, and let the Saudi kingdom send us an ambassador we can trust.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-schwartz082703.asp

This means that the people who currently live in Saudi Arabia must be driven out,
ie "evacuated."
Since they are not going to go willingly, thousands of them must be killed to intimidate the others.
THAT is the subtext here, folks.
Lared wants us to go and kill those people.

Stephen Schwartz is a senior policy analyst with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies based in Washington, DC. As a journalist, he covered the Balkans in the 1990s for the San Francisco Chronicle. His latest book is The Two Faces of Islam: The House of Sa'ud from Tradition to Terror (Doubleday, 2002). He spoke to the Middle East Forum in New York on February 27, 2003.
http://www.meforum.org/article/535

List of Experts on Islam, Islamism, and the Middle East
INCLUDE:

William Kristol
Editor
The Weekly Standard
Bio: http://www.weeklystandard.com/aboutus/bio_kristol.asp
Area of Expertise: U.S. policy in the Middle East
Contact: [e-mail]

Laurent Murawiec
Analyst
Hudson Institute
Area of Expertise: Islamic theology, Culture and anthropology of Islam, Saudi Arabia
Contact: [e-mail]

Daniel Pipes
Director
Middle East Forum
Bio: http://www.danielpipes.org/bios/
Areas of Expertise: Militant Islam, Arab-Israel conflict, Syria, American Muslims
Contact: [e-mail]

Meyrav Wurmser
Director. Center for Middle East Policy
Hudson Institute
Bio: https://www.hudson.org/learn/index.cfm?fuseaction=staff_bio&eid=Wurmser
Areas of Expertise: Arab-Israel conflict, Israeli politics
Contact: [e-mail]
http://www.meforum.org/experts.php

And just check out the articles that Lared would have us read, believe and obey.
http://www.meforum.org/wires.php
Just about everyone there is listed by Benador Associates.

Benador began by offering to arrange speaking engagements for a small group of influential foreign policy academics and former government officials, including James Woolsey, the former director of the CIA, and Richard Perle, a member of the Defence Policy Board that directly advises Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defence.
As the neo-conservatives' profile rose after September 11 2001, so too did Benador's.
<snip>
Benador calls herself a "liberal neo-con". She had hoped to avoid war but saw it as the only way to rid Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction she is certain were there. Benador agrees with her clients on most issues, which may help explain her fee structure. Benador won't discuss details, but says many of her better established clients do not pay for her services; the newer additions do.
"She is very active and enthusiastic and engaged on the issues and so wants to gain prominence for voices that she believes should be heard," says one client, who especially values Benador's e-mail network, which she uses several times a day to alert 4,000 journalists and like-minded thinkers of a media splash by one of her stars.
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/602

Lared,
come out and tell us,
once and for all,
what is your true agenda?
Are you a Democrat or progressive trying to work for Democracy within the United States or are you something else entirely?
You and your like minded clique?

[LARED]

66. Carefull DD. Telling lies can get you a time out

how come you do not ever seem to have any problem with anything said or done by the current administration?

There are quite a number of problems I have with this administration. The domestic policy is horrible. I would love to see corporate welfare rolled back. I would love to see our tax policy overhauled to bring equity into it. Foreign policy lacks diplomacy and being the world policeman is not in our best interests, to name a few issues.

What I don't believe is that the Bush administration had anything to do with 9/11. No MIHOP, no LIHOP. But I would like to see a real investigation into the intelligence failure.


It seems to me that you ALWAYS ignore their misdeeds and launch tirades against anyone or anything that offers even the mildest critisism of the current residents of the White House.

Really? It's against the rules to lie about someone. Be careful DD, you're stepping way over the line here and I may be tempted to hit the alert button and get you a time out in the corner.

Dred Scott has NEVER been overturned.
Which is why the US citizens who are currently under the US flag in Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, Liberia, Guam, American Samoa, the Marshalls Islands, Vanatu and Washington DC are denied the right to vote in presidential and other federal elections.

Dred Scott has never been overturned? Interesting. I'm fairly certain that in my town it is illegal to park a horse in front of the mayors house and that has not been overturned either. What is interesting is you link this somehow to the voting rights of commonwealths of the USA. Now I'm not expert on these matters but I'm pretty sure the reason these countries cannot vote in Presidential and federal elections is because they are not a state.

I don't have the time or desire to address any more of your silliness.

[DulceDecorum]

68. RE: Foreign policy

Lared said:
"Foreign policy lacks diplomacy and being the world policeman is not in our best interests, to name a few issues."

How about letting the Saudis worship
their God
in peace
in their own country?

Oh dear.
Did I offend you with that last statement?
You can hit the alert button anytime you want.
It is located on the botton left corner of every post.
And the ignore button is that sleepy symbol on the top right of every post.
Let your fingers do the walking.

And as for those "countries" as you call them, almost all the inhabitatants are bonafide US citizens,
(yes, Liberians and Puerto Ricans are BORN US citizens and are only permitted to use the US dollar and the US postal service stamps within their own territory)
who are DENIED the right to vote.
And you compare their situation to parking a horse outside your mayor's house.
THAT is the level of your concern.

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
Article. IV.
Section. 2.
Clause 1: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
If you are citizen of new york and you retire to Puerto Rico, you just gave up your right to vote for as long as you have a Puerto Rican zip code. Mind you, you can still be drafted to fight in the US military and Purto Rico cannot have its own foreign policy because of:

Article. IV.
Section. 3.
Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

A real good look at this:
Article. IV.
Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Which demonstrates that the New Yorker has just entered a state of slavery and is now chattel or
"other Property belonging to the United States"
for as long as he remains in Puerto Rico.
Or Washington D.C.

But this state of affairs is something that concerns only the likes of DulceDecorum
because the US citizen-residents of these places,
and DulceDecorum
are "silly" to be upset about such matters.
What is of primary importance today,
is Wahhabism and the "growing" presence of Saudi Arabians
within the United States.
BOO.

You had no comment on Bush vs Gore.
Nothing to say about the manner in which persons of the same race as Dred Scott were denied their constitutional right to vote.
You concluded by saying"
"I don't have the time or desire to address any more of your silliness."

Be warned. This exclusive interview with Greg Palast will boil your blood. 94,000 people -- over half of them African American --have been on a "scrub list" in Florida, which meant they were blocked from voting in the 2000 election. Remember, Al Gore lost by "537" votes. The thing is, most of them were legally allowed to vote and were prevented from voting by Katherine Harris, former Florida Secretary of State, and Jeb Bush, in a failed attempt to root out felons.
Instead, they blocked legal voters from casting ballots and having their voices heard. Well, certainly Florida would have made sure that all those people who could legally vote, would have their constitutional freedoms restored by this Nov. 5th to vote in the election, right? Wrong.
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/2002/11/04_Palast.html

No,
Lared does not have time to address any more of this "silliness."
Once again Lared, you ignore their misdeeds.
Just as I am going to ignore your generous offer of a time out.

Hey Lared,
do you have any comment on THIS?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=156900&mesg_id=156900&page=

[LARED]

69. re

How about letting the Saudis worship their God in peace in their own country?

That works for me. Did I imply this would offend me? You seem to having a logic free day. Perhaps you should call it quits.

And as for those "countries" as you call them, almost all the inhabitatants are bonafide US citizens, (yes, Liberians and Puerto ricans are BORN US citizens and are only permitted to use the US dollar and the US postal service stamps within their own territory)
who are DENIED the right to vote.

Depending on which territory you are speaking about, their voting rights are different. As for federal elections, they can't vote because they are not a state of the union. I don't know about the other countries but I know PR was given the opportunity to change their status as a commonwealth a number of times but seem to like the present status. The value of providing these countries the right to vote in federal elections (yes they are countries) I'm sure is worthy of debate. A debate you and I will not be having.

And you compare their situation to parking a horse outside your mayor's house.

Perhaps this was obvious to some folks, but not you, is that I was comparing the present day ramification of a standing decision on the Dred Scott case to the thousands of other laws that are meaningless. If your point is that people in the commonwealths are equivalent to slaves, please get help ASAP.

Which demonstrates that the New Yorker has just entered a state of slavery and is now chattel or "other Property belonging to the United States" for as long as he remains in Puerto Rico. Or Washington D.C.

The only thing that demonstrates is a complete lack of ability to deal with reality.

What is of primary importance today, is Wahhabism and he "growing" presence of Saudi Arabians within the United States.

Well I have to admit is the scope of things to concern myself with the plight of those folks on Guam (assuming this is even an issue there) is lower on my list that radical Muslims that desire to blow up my place of work or the bridge I drive over or the local mall. Sorry but a guys got to have priorities. BTW, my concern is not with Saudi Arabians, it's with radical jidahist that want to destroy America. Which of course is what some forms of Wahhabism seem to teach. The state religon in Saudi. (go figure)

BTW DD, I have grown tired of trying to decipher your reality, so from henceforth (or until I want to play with you) you are officially ignored.

[DulceDecorum]

73. O Happy Day

I now have something to celebrate.
Joy is me!!!

And back to Dred Scott.
"Perhaps this was obvious to some folks, but not you, is that I was comparing the present day ramification of a standing decision on the Dred Scott case to the thousands of other laws that are meaningless."

Oh that is RICH, Lared.
That is rich indeed.
Dred Scott meaningless.
Hence the sangfroid about Bush v Gore.
And the silence on Buck v Bell.

Lared was comparing the present day ramification of a standing decision on the Dred Scott case to the thousands of other laws that are meaningless.
Once such document appears to be the Constitution of the United States of America.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/30/congress.guidelines/index.html
But, I suppose, the Patriot Act is NOT meaningless to you, is it Lared?

Many of the same people both in and out of the administration who have favored making Syria a primary target in the US "war on terrorism" signed a report released four years ago that called explicitly for using military force to disarm Syria of supposed weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and end its military presence in Lebanon.
Among the signers of the report, which was released by a pro-Likud research group called Middle East Forum (MEF) and the United States Committee for a Free Lebanon (USCFL), were Bush's chief deputy on the Middle East on the National Security Council, Elliott Abrams; Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith; Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs Paula Dobriansky; and two special consultants associated with the neo-conservative American Enterprise Institute (AEI) who have been working on Middle East policy in the Pentagon and State Department, respectively, Michael Rubin and David Wurmser.
The signers also included Richard Perle, the powerful former chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board; his colleague at AEI, former UN ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick; Michael Ledeen, another AEI fellow; Frank Gaffney, a former Perle aide in the Reagan administration who now heads the Center for Defense Policy; and David Steinmann, chairman of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs. With the exception of Kirkpatrick, all of these figures outside the administration played key roles in urging Bush to go to war in Iraq.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EJ09Ak01.html

You are trying to incite us
into a "pre-emptive" war against Saudi Arabia.
And this is why:

"Iraq is the tactical pivot
Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot
Egypt the prize.'"
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j080902.html

We have not yet recovered from Afghanistan,
nor Iraq.
And we STILL do not know WHO is behind September 11.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4533000-102275,00.html

But we do know that Bush
http://septemberhearts.com/2002A/highcrimes.htm

and Cheney
http://www.truthout.org/docs_01/01.30G.Back.Home.htm

and Rice
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/19/911probe.rice/index.html

are shielding the guilty parties,
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/16/president.gop.senators/

and blocking a full investigation.
In January 2002, both President Bush and Vice President Cheney requested that Congress limit their investigations of the actions of the intelligence community leading up to September 11. The White House has continued to resist full investigations, even ridiculously questioning the patriotism of Democrats who are seeking a full account of the tragedy.
http://www.democrats.org/news/200205220001.html

Not that this
http://democrats.com/elandslide/petition.cfm?campaign=911

seems to cause Lared any loss of sleep.
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/091603Ramares/091603ramares.html

Watching Democrats or progressives or other
innocent human beings suffer
apparently does not concern Lared
as much as seeing the neo-con agenda falter.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_19/b3832081.htm

Which is fine, Lared,
except that this forum is part of the Democratic Underground,
and we are Democrats and progressives
who do care very deeply about the things
you seem to find "meaningless."

[Jim Sagle]

48. Nobody else does, that's for sure.

[DulceDecorum]

60. And that is the really strange part

because most of the time, when I show up on a thread,
A certain type of poster comes out in droves.

It makes for some long threads.
Just like this one.

[rini]

30. Ashcroft and his policies

are terrifying for America. Just as terrifying is the Wahabi take over of the world of Islam. One does not negate the other, both are evil.

Dubbya is an idiot for allowing missionaries in any Arab country, and make no mistake about it, if Dubbya didn't give them his stamp of approval, they would be here harrassing each other rather than the hapless people of Iraq.

[DulceDecorum]

15. Visited an abortion clinic lately?

Oh I forgot,
so many doctors have received so many death threats from people who are not considered anything other than Godly by the nation's Attorney General, that there are hardly any abortion clinics open anymore.

And I have never ever ever, heard a Catholic priest nor a protestant of any denomination, advocate that abortionists be slaughtered outright.
Have you?

Through Hattie, Buck also strikes up a friendship with Rayford Steele, whose Christian explanation for the disappearances gives Buck a "constant case of the chills," because it "tied everything together and made it make sense." Buck converts, and he, Rayford, Chloe, and Pastor Bruce Barnes figure out that CARPATHIA IS THE ANTICHRIST. THIS IS BAD NEWS FOR HATTIE, who soon becomes pregnant with Carpathia's illegitimate child. YET WHEN SHE CONSIDERS SOLVING THE PROBLEM BY GETTING AN ABORTION (in "a church that had been retrofitted into a testing laboratory and reproductive clinic"), hER CHRISTIAN FRIENDS DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN -- INCLUDING KILLING A MAN -- TO STOP HER.
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/01/001gross.htm

Hands up those of you who feel that it is Godly to bring to bring forth the child of the Antichrist into this world?

Those of you who did not raise your hands, DESERVE to spend the rest of eternity worshipping your master.

[LARED]

17. Sure DD

so many doctors have received so many death threats from people who are not considered anything other than Godly by the nation's Attorney General, that there are hardly any abortion clinics open anymore.

Lets keep our facts straight. People who threaten abortion doctors or clinics are criminals. Ashcroft may be pro-life but that does not mean he thinks these people are godly. I have never seen any indication of that. Have you? And as far as abortion goes, people of good will and conscious disagree about about it. It's is a very contentious issue in America.

In Saudi Arabia it is illegal of course, and to take a pro-life position could mark you as an infidel by the 'godly' GUYS that control the STATE religion of Wahhibism. Which of course could mean the threat of death or torture to help you get your ideology in order. Not to mention that womens right are not exactly up to UN standards.

But I digress. Last time I checked there are something like 1.5 million abortions in America every year, so if as you state, there are hardly any abortion clinics open anymore were true, the lines must be very long.

And I have never ever ever, heard a Catholic priest nor a protestant of any denomination, advocate that abortionists be slaughtered outright. Have you?

No I have not. You should keep in mind that Fundamentalists are Protestant. You want a little history lesson? American Christian Fundamentalism grew out of the linking of a number of denominations that saw the fundamentals of doctrine being abandoned in the late eighteen hundreds.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Fundamentalism.asp

And last

You are aware the the Left Behind series are fiction?

Now a question for you.

Why when I post an article about the dangers of Wahhibism, a state religion that teaches some very dangerous doctrines, and is well entrenched in America, all I get is the fundies are just as bad. Which is nonsense. Is it a tacit defense of Wahhibism? Is it a hope that via terrorism on American soil will teach the US a lesson. so in a way it's a good thing? Please explain.

[DulceDecorum]

18. Explain yourself

"Why when I post an article about the dangers of Wahhibism, a state religion that teaches some very dangerous doctrines, and is well entrenched in America,...."

Demonstrate the veracity of that statement.
What evidence do you have that Wahhibism is well entrenched in America?

[LARED]

19. Demonstrate the veracity of that statement?????

DD sometimes the irony of this forum is too much.


At any rate if you read the article I posted, it is plain that Wahhabism practiced in the USA by a small but growing percentage people. Perhaps stating that it is well entrenched was a bit of hyperbole, but it's here, it's growing, it's adherents are proselytizing, recruiting and radicalizing Muslims in this country.

From the article

One of the principal organizations under investigation in the United States is a group the Saudi Embassy has branded as Muslim extremists. It is the Michigan-based Islamic Assembly of North America (IANA), whose webmaster is Saleh Hussayen's nephew: Sami Omar Hussayen, a computer scientist jailed in Idaho on charges he failed to disclose his work for IANA on immigration forms.

IANA, U.S. authorities have contended in Idaho court proceedings, is a powerful engine for groups that promote teachings and religious fatwas -- orders that advocate violence against the United States -- issued by two radical Saudi clerics.

The clerics, Safar Hawali and Salman Ouda, were identified in the first World Trade Center bombing trial as spiritual advisers to bin Laden. Both were jailed for radicalism during the 1990s in Saudi Arabia.

U.S. investigators are focusing on interlocking affiliations among organizations and individuals that have ties to IANA, which has created a dozen or more Web sites whose objective, prosecutors have stated in court papers in Idaho, was the "dissemination of radical Islamic ideology, the purpose of which was indoctrination, recruitment of members and the instigation of acts of violence and terrorism."

According to FBI testimony in those proceedings, Hussayen visited Wahhabis and Salafis -- as non-Saudi adherents are known -- in New York, Michigan, Chicago, Canada and, most significantly, Northern Virginia, a hub for Saudi-backed religious organizations that have wide influence in promoting Salafi doctrine in mosques, at conferences and around the globe on the Internet.

........

Idris is president of the American Open University in Fairfax, a "distance learning" center that uses the Web to promote Salafi teaching. The university has received funding from IANA, according to tax records.

..........

IANA conferences in the United States began drawing the scrutiny of terrorism researchers a decade ago because of their heavy Wahhabi and Salafi bent. According to the Investigative Project, a terrorism research group that has monitored Islamic extremists, a senior al Qaeda recruiter, Abdelrahman Dosari, spoke at three IANA conferences in the early 1990s.

.....

IANA has received $3 million since 1995, according to FBI court filings, much of it from abroad, including $100,000 from Saleh Hussayen. Government officials are tracing the finances of IANA and related groups.

"It's much more than about the money they raise. It's proselytizing, recruiting and radicalizing people in this country and other places across the globe," said Matthew Levitt, a former FBI counterterrorism official now with the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
The Idaho visa fraud indictment against Sami Hussayen contends that he administered a Web site associated with IANA that expressly advocated suicide attacks and using airliners as weapons. Court papers filed by the government assert that an IANA Web site published a fatwa issued by Ouda on June 19, 2001, that "justified and advocated suicide bombings," and that two months later, on Aug. 16, an IANA Web site in Canada published an "invitation to jihad."
"If Sheikh Ouda holds up a banner saying, 'Go Kill the Military,' a true believer takes that as an order to take action," one official involved in the investigation said.


The question becomes how long until Americans are blown up at bus stops, theaters and their workplaces? These Wahhabi doctrines can point to no other outcomes IMO.

[Tommy_Douglas]

20. Well there is that thing...

called the Patriot Act that if it has any of the merit that Ashcroft screetches about should be just fine in dealing with the Wahhabi if they pose a threat.

[DulceDecorum]

28. The Democrats and progressives

are afraid that they are going to be blown up by Wahhabis?
Jeez, and here I thought that they were just afraid of anthrax being mailed to them by someone pretending to be a Muslim.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MOO304B.html
And phone calls from Dick Cheney.
And the White house.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/inv.terror.probe/
http://www.mikehersh.com/Bush_and_Cheney_Block_911_Investigation_.shtml

I could post this:
http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/top11/Investigation.htm
but then some of the Democrats and progressives here who want Bush to be re-elected might be offended and start hurling abuse at me.
So I will simply try not to offend the small but growing percentage people are prepared to cause us all to be blown up at bus stops, theaters and our workplaces.

In view of this is imminent threat to our national and personal security,
perhaps we had better all convert to Islam forthwith.
Muslims don't kill other Muslims you know.
And Muslims are virtually INDESTRUCTIBLE.
Why, some of the damn hijackers are still walking around, hale and hearty.
Since we cannot seem to beat them, let's join them.
Do we have any alternative?
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/22/terror.warning/

[Violet_Crumble]

70. Lines at clinics...

Last time I checked there are something like 1.5 million abortions in America every year, so if as you state, there are hardly any abortion clinics open anymore were true, the lines must be very long.

As far as logic goes, there was zero in that comment of yrs. It's a fact that access to abortion in the US has been declining rapidly, due to clinics being forced to close, hospitals being taken over by the Catholic Church, which then refuses to perform abortions, and a slew of restrictions like mandatory waiting periods etc. If a woman is wealthy enough to travel, maybe she could join a queue somewhere where she can get an abortion, but most women are a fair bit more intelligent than you think and when they're trying to get an abortion will hit the phone-book and try to make an appointment, hence no long lines to prove whatever point it is yr trying to make, and I suspect it's to bask in the glow of how much freedom and respect US women get in yr opinion...

Violet...

[Classical_Liberal]

22. What about the Dispensationalists who encourage settlements

in Israel, who in turn help Al Qaeda recruit angry Arabs. They are more dangerous because they influence our governments policy.

[LARED]

23. They are more dangerous

than whom?

[rini]

31. I agree, but

we as a people must not single out Arabs or Muslims. The issue (as I see it) is how to be vigalent without scapegoating the innocent.

[LARED]

34. I wholeheartedly agree.

that American must not single out Muslims. But I think in the long run this will be very difficult not to do.

Lets assume for the moment that my worst fears are true and terrorist cells are being developed and aided by radicalized Mosques and Muslim organizations. The people in these cells move about the country and our communities as if they are just everyday folks.

This obviously creates a huge problem. A problem we have not faced before. Let me give you an example of why this is a unique problem. I work in the chemical industry. I happen to work in a place that is a known target for terrorist. There are literally thousands of potential targets in the manufacturing industry alone in the USA.

Now I'm a manager that wants to hire a new employee. What I am I supposed to do about folks that apply for job with Arabic or Muslim names? In hiring them they will become privy to the detail workings and layout of this facility. I can't investigate them without breaking the law. I can barely ask them anything of a personnel nature. How can know if these people are a security risk or not. Is it safe to assume they are OK?

So, whats the answer? How do we protect ourselves without infringing on the liberties of other well meaning hard working people. It's an ugly paradox with no good answers.

[DulceDecorum]

36. But although most crude oil is MUSLIM

everyone is willing to give it a chance to work in their car, truck or heating furnace.

Admit it:
you want the oil but you have to get rid of the Muslims first
just the same way you got rid of the "Red Indians" who own America.

[Character Assassin]

38. So an inert petrochemical adheres to a religion? How profound.

What about vending machines?

[DulceDecorum]

44. Oh dear

I forgot that the whole point of all this was to separate the Muslims from their oil.
Muslim - bad.
Oil - good.
Gas pump - Halliburton.
Soldiers - dead.
PNAC - happy.
United States - Judeo-Christian country
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50169-2003Sep23.html

Vending machine - out to lunch.

[Character Assassin]

52. It seems you've forgotten a great deal....

I forgot that the whole point of all this was to separate the Muslims from their oil.
Muslim - bad.
Oil - good.
Gas pump - Halliburton.
Soldiers - dead.
PNAC - happy.
United States - Judeo-Christian country

No, what you forgot is that non-sentinent, chemical substances do not espouse human religions, and thus crude oil cannot be muslim.

But don't let that get in the way of actually making sense.

[DulceDecorum]

54. I can say no more

You have convinced me with arguments which are both pointed and weighty.
I can no longer refuse your offers.

The crude oil belongs to the Christians.
So be it.
PTL.

[LARED]

40. DD, please back up your BS

Where have I indicated I want to get rid of Muslims or get rid of American Indians?

[DulceDecorum]

46. I must be having flashbacks.

The nation has been invaded by a fanatical, murderous cult. And we welcome them. We are so good and so pure we would never engage in discriminatory racial or "religious" profiling.
People who want our country destroyed live here, work for our airlines, and are submitted to the exact same airport shakedown as a lumberman from Idaho. This would be like having the Wehrmacht immigrate to America and work for our airlines during World War II. Except the Wehrmacht was not so bloodthirsty.
"All of our lives" don't need to change, as they keep prattling on TV. Every single time there is a terrorist attack -- or a plane crashes because of pilot error -- Americans allow their rights to be contracted for no purpose whatsoever.
The airport kabuki theater of magnetometers, asinine questions about whether passengers "packed their own bags," and the hostile, lumpen mesomorphs ripping open our luggage somehow allowed over a dozen armed hijackers to board four American planes almost simultaneously on Bloody Tuesday. (Did those fabulous security procedures stop a single hijacker anyplace in America that day?)
Airports scrupulously apply the same laughably ineffective airport harassment to Suzy Chapstick as to Muslim hijackers. It is preposterous to assume every passenger is a potential crazed homicidal maniac. We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now.
We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20010914.shtml

Lared,
I have seen the shocking and awful light
Saudi Arabia you are next.
Let's roll.
Let's rock the Casbah.

The (boy)king called up his jet fighters
He said you better earn your pay
Drop your bombs between the minarets
Down the Casbah way
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~harel/cgi/page/htmlit?Rock_The_Casbah.html

[rini]

41. petro chemical plants

I think anyone, from janitor on up should have to undergo a security clearance. That will negate profiling.

[Darranar]

42. I agree...

is this a first?

[rini]

47. I do believe it is!

[Jim Sagle]

49. Peace is at hand!

[LARED]

50. It may not be so simple

Requiring a security clearance may not resolve this issue so cleanly.

If you subjected manufacturing facility employees to security clearances similar to those needed to get into say police or security jobs (forget FBI or military type jobs) thousands would be needlessly fired. Lots and lots of people that are hard working solid citizens have past 'histories' that could be a problem. These past problems do not pose a security risk because the risks factors being screened for are religious based at the end of the day. You will need to target (profile) security checks based on one's religion to avoid discriminating against whole classes of people.

So do we as a society discriminate against 100, 1000, 10,000 people to avoid stepping on the rights of one innocent person?

I don't have any good answers.

[DulceDecorum]

53. Just kill all the Muslims

except for the one who is banging Ann Coulter.

That will make America beautiful.
And there will be no more bombings of federal buildings such as there was in Oklahoma.
http://www.cpac.org/cpaccontents/press/press020603straw.shtml
http://cpac.org/index.html

Let's send the blacks back to Africa, since they don't seem to think that slavery is a good idea. We can have Colin Powell lead them -after we place a few black box voting machines all over and force those counties to merge into one big gelatinous mass.

As for the Mexicans, let's keep them in the movie business. Their children make good actors in the kiddie porn snuff films.

The Canadians need to stop selling drugs at discount rates and they need to understand that when Paul Celluci tells them something, they are supposed to ALL obey PRONTO - even those frenchies in Quebec. Otherwise someone might just have to go 9:11 on their 1812 ass.

As for flying the friendly skies, NOBODY should be permitted to work in any airport, public or private unless Marvin Bush personally signs off on them.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm
Nuclear power plants can continue to employ Homer Simpsons at will.
Construction companies willing to use Duracrete should be awarded a special metal fo dis honor.
But anyone who speaks Arabic, or Parsi, or even Gudjarati should have their weapons, and family jewels thoughly vetted at the Gitmo Recreational and Compassionate Rehabilitation Facility. Upon graduation, the former infidels will each be given a Black Rose.

Frankly, NO-ONE within the USA is going to be safe until and unless, EVERYONE earning a paycheck has to undergo the same stringent educational requirements and pass the same rigorous series of background checks as did Harvey John "Jack" McGeorge of Woodbridge, Virgina.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A48596-2002Nov27¬Found=true

We need to surround ouselves with people who look like us and who talk like us and who think and most importantly, VOTE like us.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20030828.shtml

These are the only people we can trust.
http://www.newwartimes.com/coulter.html

Unless, they can prove that they, too, are banging Ann Coulter.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/07/17_coulter.html

Isn't THAT what you are saying,
Lared?

[Character Assassin]

55. How many mics of LSD did you drop before posting?

Just kill all the Muslims

No one except you is stating that.

Let's send the blacks back to Africa, since they don't seem to think that slavery is a good idea. We can have Colin Powell lead them -after we place a few black box voting machines all over and force those counties to merge into one big gelatinous mass.

No one except you is stating that.

As for the Mexicans, let's keep them in the movie business. Their children make good actors in the kiddie porn snuff films.

No one except you is stating that, and snuff films are a myth.

Get help.

[DulceDecorum]

57. Ten vials less than you remember

YOU stuck it in my drink.

Get help yourself and check into rehab.

Besides which,
the above is an official REPUBLICAN position.
No need to defend it on a board for DEMOCRATS AND PROGRESSIVES.
This is the place where we OPENLY DESPISE Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.
And THAT is what they have been saying,
and doing.
http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=278

And they have bombed Afghanistan for no good reason.
And they have shocked and awed the people of Iraq,
REPEATEDLY and for no good reason either.
Plus they want the liberals, such as DulceDecorum, dead.
http://www.newwartimes.com/coulter.html

And she does it in print, a medium that would give her the chance to pause, reflect and hesitate - if she wanted to take it. But Coulter goes right in, cheerfully defaming Clinton in Slander as a rapist ("more likely than not," is her only qualifier) and declaring that US liberals despise their own country. "Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do. They don't have the energy. If they had that much energy, they'd have indoor plumbing by now."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,957670,00.html


Man, you really better check into rehab really soon.
You are starting to sound like a compassionate conservative.
Defending Ann Coulter...
Where will it end?

But above all, Coulter is thriving because America itself is changing. The country is shifting rightward, the more so since September 11. The Bush administration is not a freak of nature; it enjoys wide public support. Its belief, put crudely, that the US is number one on the planet and that anyone who stands in its way is either a terrorist or an appeaser of terror, is not on the wacky fringes but commands broad endorsement. And Ann Coulter gives it a voice. We may not want to hear it, but if we are going to understand where the mightiest power on earth is heading, we may have to start listening.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,957670,00.html

[LARED]

56. DD your powers of deduction are

astonishing. Really. They fill me with wonder and amazement.

You should be a detective or something.

[DulceDecorum]

58. I learned it all from watching you

Lared.
We attended the same college.

[rini]

61. There are no good answers.

But a bad answer is any type of religious test. I still think a security check, drivers license, birth certificate, green card, non-drug criminal test, finger prints. Things of this nature discriminate against no one.

[DulceDecorum]

64. Discriminate, incriminate, but never never investigate TerrorGate.

The former head of the American visa bureau in Jeddah is Michael Springman.

PALAST:
Newsnight has uncovered a long history of shadowy connections between the State Department, the CIA and the Saudis. The former head of the American visa bureau in Jeddah is Michael Springman.
MICHAEL SPRINGMAN:
In Saudi Arabia I was repeatedly ordered by high level State Dept officials to issue visas to unqualified applicants. These were, essentially, people who had no ties either to Saudi Arabia or to their own country. I complained bitterly at the time there. I returned to the US, I complained to the State Dept here, to the General Accounting Office, to the Bureau of Diplomatic Security and to the Inspector General's office. I was met with silence.

PALAST:
By now, Bush Sr, once CIA director, was in the White House. Springman was shocked to find this wasn't visa fraud. Rather, State and CIA were playing "the Great Game".

SPRINGMAN:
What I was protesting was, in reality, an effort to bring recruits, rounded up by Osama Bin Laden, to the US for terrorist training by the CIA. They would then be returned to Afghanistan to fight against the then-Soviets.

The attack on the World Trade Center in 1993 did not shake the State Department's faith in the Saudis, nor did the attack on American barracks at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia three years later, in which 19 Americans died. FBI agents began to feel their investigation was being obstructed. Would you be surprised to find out that FBI agents are a bit frustrated that they can't be looking into some Saudi connections?

MICHAEL WILDES, ( LAWYER)
I would never be surprised with that. They're cut off at the hip sometimes by supervisors or given shots that are being called from Washington at the highest levels.

PALAST:
I showed lawyer Michael Wildes our FBI documents. One of the Khobar Towers bombers was represented by Wildes, who thought he had useful intelligence for the US. He also represents a Saudi diplomat who defected to the USA with 14,000 documents which Wildes claims implicates Saudi citizens in financing terrorism and more. Wildes met with FBI men who told him they were not permitted to read all the documents. Nevertheless, he tried to give them to the agents.

WILDES:
"Take these with you. We're not going to charge for the copies. Keep them. Do something with them. Get some bad guys with them." They refused.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1645527.stm
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=104&row=1

http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID43/5201.html

[LARED]

67. I agree that

any type of religious test is a bad answer. As I said I don't have any good answers either. But if you look at your criteria it would not do a whole lot unless the individual is already being profiled by the FBI.

drivers license, birth certificate, green card, non-drug criminal test, finger prints. Things of this nature discriminate against no one.

But could throw possibly tens of thousands of people already working in the manufacturing sector out of work if implemented. They are obviously good checks but provide little in the way to determine if you have a bad guy or gal as these radicals are going to have a squeaky clean veneer.

It's a very difficult issue.

[rini]

71. I guess I don't follow

How could this throw people out of work unless they are a security risk?

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DulceDecorum]

75. Are you from Texas?

Ever been to the town of Jasper?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/jasper/guilty022499.htm

rini said:
"I guess I don't follow"
How could this throw people out of work unless they are a security risk?

Well,
lets have a look see.

The Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) allows people to be excluded from holding office on religious grounds. An official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/texas.htm

January 2002
Most Texans probably believe that the state has a law to prohibit discrimination in public accommodations, such as retail stores, theaters, restaurants, banks, and so on. But we donít. State Representative Juan J. Hinojosa of McAllen is sponsoring a bill in the Texas Legislature (HB-1642) to change that situation.
Texas badly needs such a law because there is much more discrimination going on than meets the eye, or that we would admit to.
http://www.texascivilrightsproject.org/Op-Ed/2002/Anti_Discrimination_Law_for.htm

An aerospace company has been sued over its firing of a jet salesman who complained about an executive's comments that because he is a Mormon he would offend customers by refusing to smoke or drink, federal officials said Monday.
http://www.tobacco.org/news/136090.html

(5/2/03 - LUBBOCK, Texas) — A Texas Tech law school professor claims the university discriminated against her in 2001 and that the university's former president used disparaging language to describe women, a lawsuit filed Friday against the school claims.
The university denies the claims.
The suit filed by Daisy Hurst Floyd also alleges a pattern of discrimination in hiring deans over the past 10 years and that university officials did not follow an announced procedure in the hiring of the law school's interim dean. The decision to name a white male came before the deadline for recommendations from law school faculty for the position, the suit claims.
http://www.legaled.com/texastechsuit.htm

WASHINGTON, D.C.--A Houston restaurant today agreed to pay $12,000 in back pay and civil penalties to settle allegations of workplace discrimination, under an agreement reached with the Justice Department.
Today's out-of-court agreement resolves a complaint filed by the Justice Department's Office of Special Counsel for Immigration Related Unfair Employment Practices (OSC) in March 1999, alleging that La Trattoria Inc. discriminated against a former waiter of Iranian descent. In its complaint, OSC alleged that throughout the waiter's employment, the restaurant owner repeatedly used ethnic slurs when referring to the waiter, often calling him a "camel." Some workers allegedly heard the owner say, "Tell the camel to come over here" and characterize his work style as "camel-style work." OSC also alleged that after the owner began to refer to the waiter as a "camel," other restaurant staff began to do the same. The restaurant has cooperated with OSC's investigation and denies the allegations.
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2000/March/092cr.htm

Better On A Camel, eh?
And speaking of Arab men, airplanes, and alleged security risks....

In a recorded statement over the weekend to American Airlines employees, Carty said he had reviewed the reports of the captain and American Airlines Systems Operation Control, and had been briefed on conversations with law enforcement officers at Baltimore-Washington International Airport.
Carty said he was "completely convinced" that the captain acted appropriately and in the best interests of security on his airplane.
"Our captain simply was not going to let an angry man with a gun on his airplane," said Carty.
"I back that completely. And I will back any employee who makes the same kind of decision for safety and security decisions. Period. End of story."
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/07/secret.service.agent/
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/28/rec.agent.airline/

In a statement, American Airlines called the agent's claims "frivolous" and supported the pilot's actions, saying they were based on concerns for the security and safety of the passengers and crew.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA020104Agents_seatmate.html

[rini]

79. almost everything you have sent is around

thirty years old. I am a grad of TTU, that case (and I might add a good one) was at a minimun 10 years ago. It may have been recently reported, but it is not recent.

I still say, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a duck! No one should get a free ride. Security check everyone!

[DulceDecorum]

81. WHO

will conduct these security checks?

Also according to the report, guards at a Brooklyn detention facility – weeks after the attack and within sight of ground zero – subjected illegal immigrant Muslim detainees to "physical and verbal abuse." As the Times described it, "Detainees reported being slammed against the wall, or being subjected to such verbal taunts as 'You're going to die here.'" To quote Tony Soprano: You don't say.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20030619.shtml

Here is what we, the Democrats and progrssives, think.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forum_archive_html/DCForumID12/1634.html

Oh, I almost forgot to ask,
do the same rules apply to everyone?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/laguardia.html

Also, rini, you really better have your eyes checked.
The stuff that I posted is FAR more recent than THIRTY years.
Furthermore, even if the Texas Constitution is older than that, it is STILL RELEVANT
which is more than we can say for a certain dossier
or a certain 16 words in a certain address.

[LARED]

77. Let me try again

I don't know why my post was deleted as I don't believe I broke any posting rules. Hopefully the MODs will let me know why. Until I get an answer I will limit and simplify my response in order to not break any rules. Hopefully

At any rate the reason I think people may be thrown out of work is because the manufacturing sector in the US that presently does security checks does so in order to check for a criminal background. This is done to protect assets, not the general population from hazardous materials. Keep in mind high security at nuke plants is in place not to prevent some one from scramming a reactor but to protect the nuclear materials from leaving the facility without the proper procedures.

Because the types of facilities that are now potential targets the nature of security checks will change. Because of this there are now literally thousands of manufacturing companies that will likely be forced to start doing security checks for the first time.

This means many thousands of people that were hired without having a security check may now need to get one. This presents some problems. Many people have past problems that will cause them to be flagged as a security risk because of some type of criminal or other problems in the past. I fear that many corporation will just get rid of them because it is easier to do that than find out if they are a terrorist threat. Past criminal activity does not necessarily mean you are a security threat for terrorism.

This raising the main point I am trying to make. At the end of the day risks from terrorist are not going to be indicated by criminal risk factors looked for in a normal security check. These risk factors are far more ideological in nature. So if we start denying work based on ideology where does it lead?

[DulceDecorum]

78. Where it leads

April 25, 2003
The Ashcroft Raids
John Aschroft's round-up of Muslim immigrants will no doubt go down in the history books as the Ashcroft Raids, alongside the notorious Palmer Raids of the early 1920s.
Ashcroft has cast a vast net, only to catch a tiny few. He has forced roughly 130,000 Muslim male immigrants to register with the federal government. Of those, he has found only 11 suspected terrorists, according to The New York Times. That's less than .01 percent, if you don't have your calculator humming right now.
The selection of Muslim immigrants is discriminatory on its face.
The idea that the real terrorists would willingly turn themselves in is baffling.
http://www.progressive.org/webex03/wx042503.html

Federal authorities raided the homes and workplaces of many immigrants all under the basis of preventing terrorism. Since these new policies have been implemented more than one year has passed, and thousands have been detained and deported, but only four have been arrested upon connection to terrorism. The overwhelming majority of immigrants were detained, as time would show, for no other reason than they were Muslim and held citizenship in a Muslim country.
http://muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000120.html
http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/cat_hug_a_jew.html

Despite President George W. Bush's repeated vows in support of American Muslims, and his reminders that the faith of Islam is not to blame for the September 11 attacks, Islamic institutions and individuals are increasingly being targeted in law enforcement actions.
http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa032002a.htm

APPENDIX ONE
105 STAT. 44
PUBLIC LAW 102-14-MAR. 20,1991
Public Law 102-14
102d Congress
Joint Resolution
Mar. 20. 1991

To designate March 26. 1991, as "Education Day. U. S. A."

Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our, great Nation was founded;
Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws;
Whereas without thes ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos;
Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society;
Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let the citizens of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to transmit these historical ethical values from our distinguished past to the generations of the future;
http://www.bnainoach.com/BNAINOAH/law102.html
http://www.ukar.org/gore10.shtml

The 7 Noahide Laws are
http://cfmbnainoach.freeyellow.com/

The Law is Only a Minimum
http://www.noahide.com/minimum.htm

The Children of Noah are the Gentiles, comprising the seventy nations of the world. They are commanded concerning the Seven Universal Laws, also known as the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah or the Seven Noahide Laws.
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavat/am/goyim.asp

THESE are the laws that John Ashcroft is upholding.

[rini]

80. Well

I think nuc plants security is done, or should be done, by the feds. As for chem plants, same thing. There is no fail-safe plan. Used to be the courts but they are so damn conservative and or PC that I have little faith in them. Still, the country must be protected.

[DulceDecorum]

82. Why

do you trust the feds?
The feds don't trust the feds.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/aug2002/fbi-a19.shtml

What are we protecting the country from?
And what we protecting it with - the same crowd of PR flacks that was on duty on September 11, 2001?

At 9:25, Garvey, in an historic and admirable step, and almost certainly after getting an okay from the White House, initiated a national ground stop, which forbids takeoffs and requires planes in the air to get down as soon as reasonable. The order, which has never been implemented since flying was invented in 1903, applied to virtually every single kind of machine that can takeoff — civilian, military, or law enforcement. The Herndon command center coordinated the phone call to all major FAA sites, the airline reps in the room contacted all airlines, and so-called NOTAMS —notices to airmen — were also sent out. The FAA had stopped the world.
Five minutes later, FAA's few staffers who had stayed to set up the emergency operations center accomplished their mission and the center was up and running by 9:30. FAA chief spokesman Scott Brenner gave immediate orders to his press corps: hit the vending machines on the floors below and bring back all the candy you could carry. Throughout the day, a hard-core group of public affairs staffers grabbed slices of pizza, scarfed chocolate donuts and swigged water and coffee. But cellphones were virtually unusable because of the overloads, and FAA staffers in the emergency op center couldn't reach their in-house experts only a few floors below on the sidewalk. Minutes later, the Pentagon was hit.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,174912,00.html

Mmmmm. Delicious.
Hey did anyone remember to check the donuts for anthrax?
Joe there is hallucinating, he thinks that conservative and PC means the same thing.