Iraq Christians fear Muslim extremism

[Cry Freedom]

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 23 (UPI) -- Iraq's Christians prepare to celebrate Christmas amid fear caused by the political vacuum and lack of security nine months after U.S. and British forces took over the Arab country.

(snip)

"Christian Iraqis are like their compatriots from other religions, worried by the dangers facing their country and have also new and particular fears," a prominent Iraqi Christian told United Press International on condition of anonymity.

He said, however, that Christians were alarmed by the new trend of Muslim religious extremism in Iraq though he acknowledged it was not widespread.

(snip)

He said growing divisions were drawing Sunnis and Shiites apart, and the rise of extremist movements who advocate violence to impose their ideology "exacerbated the fears of Christians and restricted their freedom of movement and action."

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20031223-060103-9431r

[kalian]

1. Funny....under Saddam they were all living under harmony....

:eyes:

[Cry Freedom]

2. I don't know how Christians were treated

Were they forced to convert?

Were there suicide bombings against them?

How was it under Saddam for Christians?

[kalian]

4. To give you an idea....the foreign minister of Iraq was Christian....

they were allowed to practice their religion without ANY government
controls.
ANother thing about Saddam's Iraq: women could drive, dress as they
wished and gasp...were allowed to teach and hold positions of
power within the different ministries....

Compare that to the other muslim dictatorships that are considered
our "allies"...

[MikeGalos]

14. It's more complex than that

Prior to the 1991 war, religion was suppressed in general and you could be arrested for attending a mosque.

After 1991, Hussein stayed in power by allying himself with the Islamic religious groups and you could be arrested for NOT attending a Mosque.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. The Qur'an says to respect Christians and Jews

as people of the Book. Of course, the Wahhabi sect of Islam (which is equivalent to the extreme Christian right wing imho) hates everyone and everything that isn't them, including Sufis (my branch of Islam). If moderate or liberal Muslims come into power in Iraq, all will be well.

What I'm afraid of is that if Bush wins in 2004, we'll have a thread that says, "US Non-Christians Fear Right-Wing Christian Extremism", if we're allowed to have DU at all.

[xerph]

6. Re: The Qur'an says to respect Christians and Jews

I've read through the Qur'an several times, however that is the extent of my knowledge (I have had no instruction or other form of education in the matter) however there are a number of passages which would seem to contradict the claim that it teaches peace and respect for Christians and Jews.

Sura 2:191: "Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter."

Sura 2:216: "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it."

Sura 5:54: "O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people."

Sura 5:54: "O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people."

Sura 9.5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush.

Sura 48:29: "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers."


Now, there are a number of passages in the old testament of the Bible which without the proper context and understanding of the message spread by Christ (He is the true way, not a strict adherance to the old laws, etc, etc) which could be used to show that Christianity is equally hostile.

I'm curious, is there a similar explanation for the passages in the Qur'an which advocate violence against non-believers or are they simply ignored and considered "not part of the true message of islam"?

[kalian]

7. Should we get into what theTalmud and other jewish teachings....

have in store for muslims...? Or what they think about muslims...?

[xerph]

8. Re: Should we get into what theTalmud and other jewish teachings....

Well, since islam hadn't been thought up when the original jewish texts were written, seeing what it has to say about the religion would be a neat trick. But I assume your statement refers to that the Talmid and other Jewish teachings have to say about non-jewish religions in general.

But, as I already stated, I'm quite aware of what is said (specifically referring to the old testament books which perscribe rather harsh punishments for certain offences), that was never up for debate. What I asked was that in the case of the biblical texts, future events (Christ) changed man's relationship with those ancient law codes (ie: it was written that the punishment for adultary was stoning, whereas by the time Jesus was wandering around he brought up the point of "whoever is without sin cast the first stone, etc, etc, basically saying that it wasn't man's place to judge others)

I was asking if Islam had anything similar which would nullify those calls for attacks upon Jews and Christians or if those passages were simply supposed to be ignored in modern times, or dismissed as "outdated"

[cosmicdot]

9. googled to see where the Qur'an citations came from ... found this link

http://movabletype.cypren.net/type/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=753

with a post mirroring those exact Qur'an quotations in your post ... posted by another "xerph"

is http://www.xerph.com your blog?

do you really believe Ann Coulter hit the nail on the head in bashing the Democratic contenders for President?

"Everybody's favorite inflammatory conservative has written a new piece that provides an overview of the current democratic presidential nomination competition. While I have no doubt that some (all) of her comments will be seen as right-wing rhetoric by those on the left, I believe in this case she has hit the nail on the head."

http://xerph.com/archives/000778.html

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Since the Qur'an is read in its original Arabic...

I am curious as where did you get your highly selective material which serves to do nothing more than smear Islam.

I can do the same selective quotes in the Bible, and make Christianity to sound as barbaric and retrograde as you did with Islam.

Islamophobia, anyone?

[xerph]

12. Re: Since the Qur'an is read in its original Arabic..."

Ah, I see. Completely my mistake. I only mentioned twice that you could do the same thing with the bible if you didn't understand the context before asking if the same holds true with the Qur'an in an attempt to learn if these passages were simply being misunderstood, but I see how you confused that with "I hate Islam". I *should* have said it a third time as that would have gotten the point across where the first two didn't.

Seriously though, I was pretty clear that since I *know* you can take the biblical verses out of context I just wanted to know if that was what was happening with the Qur'an, and was hoping that somebody more familiar with the subject could provide some insight to it. If you're taking that to be Islam bashing I think you should take a deep breath and re-read my original post.

As for my source:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/HolKora.html

As translated by:
Shakir, M. H.
Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc
P.O. Box 1115, Elmhurst, New York 11373.

[bemildred]

15. She is a moderately skilled literary prostitute.

Her intellectual skills would embarass a baboon.

[bemildred]

18. Some context helps:

002.190
YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them
not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them
at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the
Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

002.192
YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

002.193
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those
who practise oppression.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.


Another:

005.053
YUSUFALI: And those who believe will say: "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah, that they were with you?" All that they do will be in vain, and they will
fall into (nothing but) ruin.
PICKTHAL: Then will the believers say (unto the people of the Scripture): are these they who swore by Allah their most binding oaths that they were surely with you? Their
works have failed, and they have become the losers.
SHAKIR: And those who believe will say: Are these they who swore by Allah with the most forcible of their oaths that they were most surely with you? Their deeds shall go for
nothing, so they shall become losers.

005.054
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the
believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on
whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Whoso of you becometh a renegade from his religion, (know that in his stead) Allah will bring a people whom He loveth and who love Him,
humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He giveth unto whom
He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the
believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases,
and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

005.055
YUSUFALI: Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow
down humbly (in worship).
PICKTHAL: Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).
SHAKIR: Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

Another:

009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one
against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As
for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their
agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every
stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every
ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

009.006
YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because
they are men without knowledge.
PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place
of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they
are a people who do not know.


Apparently complete, but I am no judge:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

[varun]

13. Does the Quran also say...

...respect Hindus?

[MikeGalos]

19. Wahhabi sect

To compare the Wahhabi sect to the extreme Christian right wing may be the usual analogy but it misses one very key difference.

The extreme Christian right wing does not control both the power base and capital of a nation as powerful and manipulative as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

And, lest anyone think it's a vague, recent connection, the Saud family are also known as the Wahhab Saud family and Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab who founded the Wahhabi sect set up a personal alliance with the Saud family back in 1744 and it was with the al Saud armies that Wahhab Islam and the power of the Saud family was spread.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Thank Mr. Bush for another rousing American victory!

Other than butchering tens of thousands of innocents more than bin Laden has, there is no other Bush accomplishment as the destruction of entire societies and cultures.

Americans think that what the world needs is a McDonald's in every village and town, while the truth is that what the world needs is for America to stop interfering in everyone else's affairs.

[cowpie]

16. The verses listed above are accurate

Also, the Quran is divided into medin books and meccan books. The popular consensus among Islamic Imams is that the medina scriptures that contradict the peaceful scriptures in the meccan parts cancel them out. That is unfortunately the source of Islamic terror. The terrorists really believe that God is telling them to do this. Unfortunately the few moderate Muslim voices are drowned out by the radicals.

[cowpie]

17. BTW

There are three options listed in the Quran in how to deal with non Muslims:

1. Convert them to Islam

2. If they resist conversion require they pay a tax and live under Islamic law which forbids various things like building new churches, crossing the path of a muslim, denying muslims the right to rest and food when they stop at your house of worship or your home. Also included is that nonmuslims are prohibited from repairing churches and they are basically second class citizens. Kind an apartheid system if you will.

3. Attack and kill them. If they agree to one of the two above options muslims are forbidden to hurt them.

[MikeGalos]

20. Dhimmi

It is that 2nd state (pay an annual protection racket fee to avoid death or forced conversion) that is referred to as Dhimmi status and it was exactly that status that Jews in much of the Middle East had to live under prior to Israel being around as a refuge. Another Dhimmi rule involve not being allowed to testify in court even at your own trial (you are to hire a Moslem to testify for you). Calling it Apartheid is much too weak, it's closer to a ghetto even down to require distinctive clothing to allow good Moslems to easily identify you as a lesser.

[varun]

21. Hindus in medieval India

under the Mughals (Muslim rulers) also were subject to this "Jaziya" (tax).

[MikeGalos]

22. The difference, however,

is that the Dhinni laws about resident Jews were in force in many Arab states in the 20th Century and not just medieval days.