Davis signs new gun bill requiring double safety devices

[CO Liberal]

If guns can be made safer, I believe they should be. - Wayne

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Davis signs new gun bill requiring double safety devices

ANNA OBERTHUR, Associated Press Writer Wednesday, September 24

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- California will become the first state in the nation to require handguns to have two new safety devices under a bill signed by Gov. Gray Davis Wednesday.

Gun safety advocates said the bill, which will require semiautomatic pistols to have both a chamber load indicator and a magazine disconnect device by 2007, will make the state safer and bolster California's reputation for tough gun laws.

While opponents said part of the law could actually make guns more dangerous, supporters of the legislation applauded Davis and Sen. Jack Scott, D-Altadena, who wrote the bill.

"We are so tired and sickened at heart to hear about all the children who die from guns every day, day after day," said Jane Roth, president of the Million Mom March's California State Council. "This new law will save lives and will prevent further accidents."

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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/09/24/state2012EDT7625.DTL

[MrBenchley]

1. Agreed....

[demsrule4life]

2. Two bad idiots can never figure out

that gun safety is between the ears and not worthless add ons to a pistol.

[Girlfriday]

3. Bravo Gov Davis

ANYTHING that can be done to make guns safer, I'm all for!

[DoNotRefill]

39. How many cops will die because of this?

Deliberately rendering cop's guns inoperable for part of a gunfight seems like a pretty stupid idea to me....

[7th_Sephiroth]

4. I Disagree

if you cant remember to take the bullet out of the chamber before you put the gun away, thats your own fault, gun dealers ahould make a point of teaching people that.

[CO Liberal]

5. I See No Problem With Safety Devices

For safety, you're supposed to press the clutch pedal to the floor before you try to start a stick-shift vehicle. Every one I've owned build since the Early '70s has had an interlock switch that disables the starter until the clutch is depressed.

I don't see any difference with these safety devices.

[demsrule4life]

6. apples and oranges

:)

[CO Liberal]

8. No - Apples and Apples

One of the first things my dad taught me when I was learning to drive was to press to clutch pedal in before turning the key. Now (thanks to the interlock switches), I have to.

[demsrule4life]

10. Guns and cars?

apples and oranges. Back to guns, it dont matter if a gun has no safetys or a hundred safetys only way a gun can fire is if you pull the trigger. There is no such thing as an accidental shooting, a concious effort has to be made to pull the trigger. Only thing a chamber loaded indicator is that the pistol has to have an external extracter which sticks out a little bit when a round is chambered. My only experiance with them is with the beretta I carried in the Air Force, and I have to say it is very hard to tell the difference either way. As magazine safetys goes most of them make for a harder trigger pull which makes the gun less accurate, that is just what we need. I will admit for the average gun owner it does have the option of being able to keep a gun with a loaded chamber and the magazine hid away and the gun is safe, it is bad for people that have to carry guns for defense since during a tactical reload while you are being shot at the gun is on safe.

[DoNotRefill]

37. The problem is....

that with firearms, they tend to be used under high levels of stress, and when they're needed, they're needed badly, and fractions of seconds count. I recall a case where an officer with a revolver got into a gun fight. He fired all six rounds, went to reload, and followed his standard range procedure of opening the cylinder, hitting the plunger, catching the spent brass in his other hand, putting the brass in his pocket, and then reloading the weapon. He was found dead, with the brass in his pocket, and an empty weapon because it took him too long to reload.

The reason his range procedure involved putting the spent casings into his pocket instead of the much quicker way of just letting them drop to the floor was to avoid having to bend down afterwards to pick them up.

Ever hear of the KISS principle? It applies especially to firearms design.

[DoNotRefill]

36. There's a couple of differences....

First, magazine disconnects are very unpopular on police guns, because it renders a weapon with a round chambered inoperative while changing magazines. This can have deadly results for the wielder. Secondly, as with ANY mechanical safety, they tend to lead to a sense of false security, which can lead to unsafe handling practices among the unwashed. On top of that, certain safety malfuntions can render the weapon dangerous to operate at all.

Thirdly, they're easy to defeat....as ALL of them are on my guns that came with them. When I point a gun and pull the trigger, I expect it to fire, period.

[pansypoo53219]

7. as if

drug bottles and cigarette lighters are child proof. true education would help.but less guns hanging around would help too.

[slackmaster]

9. Prepare for the unintended consequences of this new law

More guns in the hands of private citizens. Expect a peak in handgun sales in 1994 as people who were contemplating buying one decide to do it before their choices suddenly become far more restricted.

I don't need a chamber-loaded indicator because in my mind every gun is always loaded and ready to fire. I don't want a magazine-disconnect mechanism because I want to be able to use a pistol without a magazine. If I ever buy a new gun with such a device I'll probably disable it.

[Superfly]

11. More feel-good legislation...

What, I ask you, is this going to do? Save kids' lives? Ha!

When a 7-year old kid finds a weapon with a load indicator and a magazine disconnect, what is he going to do?

"Hmmm...there seems to be a bullet in the chamber and a magazine in the weapon....I better put it down"

Yeah, right. Unless some adult had taken the time to educate their kids on firearms safety, this legislation is going to do absolutely zilch for "all the children who die"....

This is just Davis passing 11th hour, feel good legislation in an attempt to save his ass.

[DoNotRefill]

12. I wonder what guns the cops will carry now?

certainly not Glocks....

[demsrule4life]

13. In CA

cops dont have to follow these silly laws.

[Fescue4u]

14. The fact that cops are exempted

Demonstrates one of two things:

1) Its NOT about safety, but intential bureacracy intended to increase the cost of gun ownership and manufacturering, which if high enough will drive manufacturers out of business.

or

2) They care about all kids, except for cops kids.


I vote for #1..in other words, an end run around the bill of rights.

[Superfly]

15. I vote for C

it's Davis' attempt to save his ass in the pending recall election.

"See? I am concerned about our childrens' safety!"

[RoeBear]

18. Very good point...

...can ANYONE come up with a third reason?

[Superfly]

19. Do you have me on ignore or something?

Check out my response right above this one. And check out my "feel-good legislation post"

[DoNotRefill]

38. Well...

they should. Jut because they're cops doesn't mean they should be exempt from ANY law.

[Gun Runner]

16. Bill Clinton helped gun sales get to new highs

One of the best things that EVER happend to the gun industry was Bill Clinton. He drove up sales and the price of many guns and gun related itmes. For every action there is a reaction, if you attack something, others will attack back. New gun laws generate new gun sales, 100% of the time, but you never see those stats anywhere do you?

On an "older" car, when you push the clutch, you then turn the key, if clutch is not depressed, the car does not start and run across the parking lot or go anywhere, get real. When you put your finger on the trigger you intend to pull it and shoot it. Guns have enough internal safeties that a discharge from being dropped is prevented.

There are a number of safety practices which will never be replaced by a magazine disconnect. It is frosting for people who are affraid of guns and in the end will drive up sales. Current gun owners are way ahead of you on this issue, by 2 years. By doing this, people who are not dedicated to learning and practicing proper gun ownership will end up buying one too, and not just in California, but nationwide. "You better buy an XYZ model while you still can" kciks in hard every time a new restriction is passed.

[MrBenchley]

17. I see RKBA horseshit is alive and well.....

"The decline in handgun sales since the mid-1990s has been attributed to many factors, from tougher gun-control laws to an increased feeling of safety as crime dropped throughout the decade. But to some, the roots go deeper, suggesting a subtle shift in attitudes, as America becomes ever more suburban – and more likely to connect guns to shooting sprees than to weekend duck hunts."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0402/p01s02-ussc.html

"As fewer fathers take youngsters out into the woods and more suburbanites balk at a sport they see as both dangerous and cruel, some observers predict the number of hunters in the United States could fall by as much as 50 percent in the next 20 years....A new US Fish and Wildlife survey shows that the number of hunters has declined by 7 percent, to 13 million, in the past 5 years."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0109/p01s02-ussc.html

[Gun Runner]

21. Yes, Bill helped gun sales revenue go up

I did not say handgun sales, I said gun sales and accessories. I also did not stress new gun sales.

You can buy a new "upper" and that is not considered a gun sale at all.

There are also no stats on private sales, so when a gun owner dies and his 10, 20, 50 guns are sold in private auction, those sales are not tracked. The ideal gun to buy is a used gun. The gun is in no database any where. Mostused guns ahvenot been shot that much and cost less. So you buy a used Colt 1911 that is 20 to 50 years old and maybe an AR15 that is 20 years old. Just go through them and rebuild them. Buy new uppers if needed. So a guy may buy 1 new handgun, but he buys 3 used ones too and an AR15 too.

As for hunting stats, hunting, fishing and camping are all in decline. Most people can not even start a fire using a match let alone a flint. Obviously most of you here do not hunt or own guns.

Again, the quote you pulled up was for new handgun sales only. Not used guns, mags, ammo or uppers.

If this sounds like RKBA bullshit to you, so be it. But chances are you never heard the term upper till I told you and you are not really clear on what the legal defintion of one is either. I am willing to share info to help you understand the whole picture.

How many reporters know enough to even bring these facts to you, since you have to rely on others for your information? Go to a gun show and see for yourself. Ask questions and learn.

[MrBenchley]

23. So in other words...

You claim gun sales went up, but it's just RKBA hooey...

"If this sounds like RKBA bullshit to you, so be it."

"The ideal gun to buy is a used gun. The gun is in no database any where."
So when you stick up the liquor store it can't be traced. I'm hip.


"How many reporters know enough to even bring these facts to you"
How many say, "well I know an obscure bit of jargon, so trust me when I lie about statistics?"

[Superfly]

24. Do you know why hunting is on the decline?

Anybody, anybody? I'll give you the real reason in a bit, and it has nothing to do with guns.

[CO Liberal]

25. Did They Kill Everything???

:-)

[Superfly]

26. Nope. Guess again

for real this time.

[MrBenchley]

29. LOL!!

NO LONGER WEIRD
by Chuck Shepherd Copyright 2003. All rights reserved.
Updated: August 1, 2003

The following kinds of stories were formerly weird, but they now occur with such frequency that they must be retired from circulation:
8. hunters shoot each other
13. shoots himself while supposedly demonstrating gun safety
35. dog steps on gun, shooting the master

http://www.newsoftheweird.com/special/special.html

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

27. "it has nothing to do with guns"?

Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrre......

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Superfly]

32. Then just ignore them

or do you have to comment on everything in this forum?

[MrBenchley]

33. It's a public forum, fly

I'll comment upon what I feel like commenting upon, and as I please to do so.

[Superfly]

34. That's not what I meant

I am just asking that you show a little restraint. I asked a serious question on something that is near and dear to my heart, and you turn it into a flame war. Thanks.

B

[Fescue4u]

20. speaking for myself only

I thank Clinton for getting me interested in RKBA.

Before the whole 1994 gun law debacles, I was somewhat anti-gun and didnt own anything more deadly than a pocket knife or flight of stairs ( :) ).

After Clinton and Gore began their assault on assault weapons, the issue piqued my interest and I started examing the issue.

Being an engineer by nature and profession, I looked at all the facts and found (to my suprise) that most of the anti-gun argument were lacking and found myself siding with the pro Bill of rights people.

Of course, seeing the massive losses the Democratic party took in response didnt help matters either.

It still took another 4 or 5 years before I actually puchased my first gun, which was followed quickly by the 2nd, 3rd and 4th etc.

Now, its a sport that I enjoy and have alot of fun with. Some of my best father/son moments have been taking my kids to the gun range and introducing them to the sport.

And of course the "side benefit" of being better able to protect me and my family agianst criminals is not insubstantial either.

[Gun Runner]

22. You are one of many..

This is a prevalent story in the past 10 years that most anti's never hear because no one in their circle of influence did it. The issue is and always will be, does the person who is new to guns bother to learn, practice and observe proper gun safety?

[BullDozer]

35. Law enforcement association speaks out against this

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=151-09252003

Gov. Davis' bill also exposes California law enforcement and taxpayers to additional liability risk. The law officially defines guns lacking these features as "unsafe guns." As a result, nearly every single handgun used by California law enforcement officers will be officially defined as an "unsafe handgun," a notion certain to be exploited in lawsuits involving police use of firearms.

LEAA urges Gov. Davis' soon to be decided replacement to reconsider this ill-advised and misleadingly promoted law.

[MrBenchley]

40. That's the NRA's phony group, dozer....

but thanks for playing "What's my gun nut fantasy".

"The bogus group Law Enforcement Alliance of America (LEAA) gets a seat in the Time Out Chair for its negative and misleading advertising campaign against Virginia Attorney General candidate Donald McEachin. The LEAA, a "front" group for the National Rifle Association that often does the bidding of the NRA, spent more than $1 million on its attack ads, which distorted facts about Mceachin's voting record and called him "dangerous for Virginia's families." The specious ad campaign saturated the airwaves and helped prevent McEachin from winning the race.

The LEAA, which was founded in 1991 with seed money from the NRA, does not represent the majority opinion of law enforcement professionals. Unlike other state and national law enforcement organizations, membership in LEAA is not limited exclusively to law enforcement. Anyone may join the LEAA by simply paying membership dues, and NRA members are routinely solicited to join."

http://www.millionmommarch.org/features/timeout/index.asp?record=14