GUNS IN THE NEWS - October 10, 2003

[demsrule4life]

Since I will be at work all day I might as well kick it off.

[demsrule4life]

1. Home Invasion Suspect Shot And Killed

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=8991

[demsrule4life]

2. Woman shoots alleged abductor

When I was a kid Merrillville was a nice quiet farmers town.

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2003/10/09/news/top_news/0a91cc8ee75bfe2086256dba00002243.txt

[demsrule4life]

3. Our disgust, by sons of latest gun crime victim

A chief constable issued his own appeal to the Home Secretary to introduce a national strategy to tackle gun crime last night

How many strategys do you need once you banned them?

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=451773

[demsrule4life]

4. We are overrun by gun crime, says police chief

And of course the law abiding are helpless to this onslaught.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/10/ncrime10.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/10/10/ixportal.html

[iverglas]

58. "news"

The police don't have the personnel and resources to deal with all the crimes reported to them.

Stop the presses!!

From the article:

"There is clear evidence that we are a county police
force dealing with big-city problems."

Nottinghamshire had suffered more than other cities
and was being forced, as Mr Green put it, to "punch
above its weight" with, in 2002-03, 2,435 officers
tackling 161,404 offences.

Oh, that's 161,404 total offences. Out of which, the article tells us ... drum roll ...

This year there has been on average more than one
shooting every week in Nottinghamshire.

When this Chief Constable says "big-city crime", he ain't talkin' New York City.


Nottinghamshire, you say. That's where my grandmother was from: Mansfield. I've visited the pub owned by her great-uncle over a century ago, in Robin Hood's home town.

Population of Nottinghamshire (which is a political subdivision that includes various population centres and rural areas) in the 2001 census: 748,510. It includes the city of Nottingham; 2001 population: 266,988.

Here's the interesting bit (Green is the Chief Constable = chief of police):

Mr Green was cool on the idea of arming police,
but said he supported the establishment of a dedicated team
of officers to deal solely with gun crime.

Imagine that. Police without guns, and not particularly interested in having them. That must be one damned dangerous, violent society over there.


Oh, and the source of the story? I mean, it's such a big news story, I must assume that all UK papers picked it up. But here, our source is ... The Telegraph.

The article quoted below is out of date (Conrad Black has since sold all his Canadian newspaper holdings, thank bloody god ... although the purchaser continued along Konrad's right-wing course ... until he died this week). But when it quotes Maudie, it's got it right:
http://www.fair.org/extra/9611/conrad-black.html

Maude Barlow, chair of the Council of Canadians, describes a typical takeover by Black's Hollinger this way (CounterSpin, 8/15/96): "They fire half the staff, they get rid of the environment reporters and the social affairs and the education and health reporters, and they replace them with businesspeople --or they don't replace them at all.... Anyone not singing that very right-wing Newt Gingrich type of...line is soon let go."

You'll want to read the whole thing. Conrad Black-watching is a most entertaining hobby. He's left Canada now, relinquishing his citizenship to take up a seat in the British House of Lords, so we don't have as much fun as we used to.

Oh, and there's always Konrad's wife, the charming Barbara Amiel.
http://www.studioxx.org/FemmesBranchees/1996/BYEBYE2.html
(Hey, not the most erudite writing in this article, but passionate and handy -- also out of date, post-Post sale (the National Post being Konrad's flagship during his tenure at the helm of the Canadian dailies; I think he still has the Jerusalem Post).)

Maybe you've read one of her McLean's articles, such as:

"Firing a 'hooker' is an employers right" (Dec. 18, 1995)
"The madness of the unisex experiment" (Aug. 28, 1995)
"Baleful feminism and O.J. Simpson" (Feb. 6, 1995)
or my personal favorite,
"In defense of elitism: benefits for everyone" (July 31, 1995)

Perhaps you have noticed her syndicated International Affairs Column on page B6 of Saturday's <Montreal>Gazette, a paper now owned by Conrad. This intrepid International Affairs Columnist reports from abroad, warning of the dangers of excessive liberalism at fault for "poor education; rising health care; young criminals; and welfare dependency." (Aug. 31, 96)

To give credit where credit is due our Ms. Amiel Black <deigns> to discuss issues domestic in her International Affairs column, giving a whole new meaing to that phrase the "personal is political". Issues like "Violence: a private affair: British soccer player shouldn't be vilified because his wife has a black eye and bruises." (Nov. 9, 1996) After all, a little aggressive behaviour by men is natural, unlike the horrid unnaturalness of same sex couples and gay parents.

(Yeah. And Babs once had an abortion, leaving herself free to climb her way to the top of the heap of rich and famous husbands, child-free. But nobody else must be allowed to, sez she.)



Know thy news sources. And judge the "news" they purport to report accordingly. That's my advice.


.

[iverglas]

12. I dunno

"How many strategys do you need once you banned them?"

How's that ban on murder going in the USofA?

How 'bout the ban on shoplifting, robbery, assault, speeding, jaywalking ... ?


I note that the Chief Constable ("chief of police", to us) called for "a national strategy to tackle gun crime" and that you asked how many strategies are needed "once you ban them".

"Them"?

You see, here is where grammar might just come in handy. It might just have helped you express a coherent thought.

Your "them" is a pronoun without a referent. There is no "them" in what the Chief Constable said. He was talking about an "it": "gun crime".

Gun crime -- crimes committed by offenders using firearms for the purpose -- has indeed been banned. And, just like the banned murder and shoplifting and robbery and assault and speeding and jaywalking in the USofA, and everywhere else, it still goes on. It hasn't disappeared.

Guns have also, of course, to a large extent, been banned.

And quelle amazing surprise, the ban hasn't made them disappear.

I mean, you're obviously surprised. And that, in itself, is what I find surprising.

Oh dear. Your surprise wasn't really an attempt at sarcasm, was it?

Nah. That wouldn't really have been sarcasm, you see; it would have been just dumb.



Btw ... when you make a singular noun ending in "y" ("strategy") plural, you replace the "y" with "ies" ("strategies"). Glad to be of assistance.

.

[RoeBear]

56. Take your english lessson and stuff it...

...in the Hudson Bay.

[iverglas]

79. how sad

The "English lesson", my dear, was incidental. Perhaps if you comprehended what you read better, you'd understand that.

The point was: the author was purporting to make the point that banning THEM (firearms) was useless for preventing IT (gun crime). By garbling his pronouns, he concealed the fatal flaw in what he was saying. This might, of course, be an object lesson in how clear writing might facilitate clear thinking; if he hadn't garbled his pronouns, he couldn't possibly have made the mistake he did ... if they were in fact inadvertently garbled, and if it was a mistake.

And analysis of that bit of garble can be an object lesson in not being misled by fallacious argument, whether it be the result of clever crafting or confused thought processes.

The subject of the quotation in the news report was GUN CRIME, and strategies to combat IT. The question asked was "How many strategys do you need once you banned THEM?"

How many strategies do you need to combat gun crime once you have banned guns?

I don't know. That question just doesn't make any sense to me. No, that's not quite accurate. It doesn't make any sense. Period.

The point ITSELF was abjectly pointless, which was the point I made.

"Banning" something does not necessarily mean that it will never happen again. Viz. murder and jaywalking, you know. Banning the possession of something does not mean that no one will have it, or use it improperly.


Of course, the point I didn't make, which it seems that the author and all his little chums don't like being reminded of and refuse to acknowledge or remember, was this: the UK ban on firearms had nothing to do with "gun crime", i.e. with crimes committed by people using firearms where the intention is to commit a crime, not to harm someone with a firearm.

The UK ban on firearms was imposed to prevent people being killed and injured by firearms, *not* in the course of the commission of crimes, but as stand-alone events like the mass murder of schoolchildren by someone in the lawful possession of a firearm who was not engaged in any other criminal endeavour at the time.

The "point" made by the person who posted this item was really and truly completely pointless. It was, indeed, no more pointful than saying that a ban on jaywalking had failed to stop people who jaywalk from catching cold. Some people undoubtedly catch cold while jaywalking. But a ban on jaywalking is not intended to stop people who jaywalk from catching cold.


The UK ban on firearms is not intended to stop people with firearms from committing crimes.


Maybe if you all wrote this out in your own words, you might have better luck remembering it. If you want to give it a try, I won't say a thing about your grammar or spelling.


... "Stuff it in the Hudson Bay". That's quite a way with words you have. I, myself, might say "stuff it in Hudson Bay", if I wanted to say something like that. I doubt that I would find myself in a situation where I did want to.

.

[demsrule4life]

83. Would'nt the ultimate stradegy to gun crime

be banning guns? I would think so, since England has banned pistols and semiauto rifles what else can be done? Most of these British articles have something in common in that most of their shootings involve people in crime and the drug trade. That is true to most of the shootings in the states, so since we know that banning guns don't work solve the problems of what causes crime and end the drug war.

[CO Liberal]

84. Not Really

Most of these British articles have something in common in that most of their shootings involve people in crime and the drug trade. That is true to most of the shootings in the states ...

I don't belive that's quite true, Dems. Very few of the "GITN" stories I find on Google are drug- or crime-related. Most of them are "law-abiding" gun owners who decide to off their relatives.....

[demsrule4life]

86. If you added all those

up it wouldn't come close to our annual murder rate. You don't think the press has been leaving out all the criminals shooting each other would you?

[iverglas]

92. and those

"... "law-abiding" gun owners who decide to off their relatives"

(or their neighbours or the class full of kids in town) are EXACTLY who the UK ban on firearms is designed to deter from doing exactly that.

And from all reports, either it is working or there's some other reason why some people did those things before the ban and nobody's doing them now.

It is also exactly those people and exactly those kinds of incidents that Canadian regulations governing firearms possession (i.e. the who-has-firearms and how-they-handle-them parts, rather than the what-kind-of-firearms parts of those regulations) are in large part intended to deter. And surprise, there are a lot fewer of those kinds of incidents in Canada than in, oh, say, the US.

.

[Romulus]

96. so it *is* the laws

It is also exactly those people and exactly those kinds of incidents that Canadian regulations governing firearms possession (i.e. the who-has-firearms and how-they-handle-them parts, rather than the what-kind-of-firearms parts of those regulations) are in large part intended to deter. And surprise, there are a lot fewer of those kinds of incidents in Canada than in, oh, say, the US.

Thank you for clarifying your position.

[iverglas]

98. I keep it simple ...

and still there are simple___s pulling their simplistic shit.

"So it is the laws".

You said it, bubba, not I.

Me, I have a pretty firm grip on the concept that most phenomena have multiple causes, some of them necessary and some of them sufficient, and some of them even both.

You won't be catching me saying that "X" is *the* cause of "Y" very often, I assure you.

But I'm quite sure that you will continue, with not a shred of evidence or argument that would hold a drop of water, and in fact contrary to the evidence that stares you in the face, to say that this particular "X" is not *a* cause of "Y".

No skin off my nose. Intelligent people of good will can see through it. People without good will do too, but won't admit it; and unintelligent people, well, there's not always a lot one can do about them.

.

[iverglas]

91. let's make it reeaaallly simple

Murder is illegal.

Does no one commit murder?

Do fewer people commit murder than we think would do it if murder were not illegal and murderers were not punished?

(If the answer to the last question is not "yes", why do we ban murder?)


We could do this with lots of things: shoplifting, jaywalking, speeding, armed robbery ... our answers would be pretty much the same, do you think?


This is called AN ANALOGY, now, mind. I want to make sure we're all following the plot here. We take what we learn from one situation, and we apply that to something else. We human beings do this quite a bit in real life.

Let's try it.


Firearms possession is illegal.

Does no one possess firearms?

Do fewer people possess firearms than we think would do it if possessing firearms were not illegal and people who possess firearms were not punished?


If your answer to that last one is "no", you're really going to need to explain how "possessing firearms" is different from murder, speeding, armed robbery, shoplifting, or anything else that we prohibit by law because we want to reduce its incidence and we think that prohibiting it and punishing people who do it will help do so.

There are indeed some behaviours for which prohibition and punishment don't work really well as deterrents. You could try identifying some, and then explaining why firearms possession is more analogous to them than it is to murder etc., if that is your contention.


And now PLEASE try to keep the following in mind.

(b) I am not saying that firearms possession is LIKE murder, any more than it I am saying that murder is like shoplifting or jaywalking, or green cheese, for that matter. I am saying that it is "like" murder ONLY in the sense that it is a behaviour that can be deterred by prohibiting it and punishing people who engage in it. In that sense, it would also be "like" growing tomatoes.

(a) I am not proposing that firearms possession be made illegal. I am addressing someone else's assertion that making firearms illegal does not reduce the incidence of harm caused by firearms.

Well ... I'm addressing that assertion even though nobody actually made it. I'm not addressing the assertion that banning firearms does not reduce "gun crime", i.e. independent crimes committed by people using firearms, because the particular ban in question was never designed to have that effect so such a discussion would be moot here.


How we doing? Let's just emphasize that last bit, again:

"... since we know that banning guns don't work<,> solve the problems of what causes crime and end the drug war."

Here we go:

The UK ban on firearms possession was not intended to reduce the incidence of crimes associated with the drug trade, or any other kind of crimes. It was designed to prevent people from being shot, and killed or injured, by people who are not engaged in the drug trade or in any other criminal activity.

The UK gun ban was never meant to "solve the problems of what causes crime". The UK gun ban was never meant to prevent criminals from using firearms to commit crimes.

You try it. In your own words, explain that concept, and maybe even try explaining why it means that what you are saying is completely unrelated to the UK ban on firearms.

.

[demsrule4life]

93. So passing laws

by emotion is not a great idea. Criminals get to keep guns and the law abiding citizens don't. There is a world I would hate to live in. I guess the RKBA's arguement that gun control only affects the law abiding isnt so neurotic after all.

[MrBenchley]

94. Not so fast, dems

"I guess the RKBA's arguement that gun control only affects the law abiding isnt so neurotic after all."
No, you've missed your guess.

[fromthehip]

117. nope.

Here's my MrBenchleyesque reply to MrBenchley's reply:

"No, you've missed your guess."

You're wrong.

[Romulus]

95. hmmm

The UK ban on firearms possession was not intended to reduce the incidence of crimes associated with the drug trade, or any other kind of crimes. It was designed to prevent people from being shot, and killed or injured, by people who are not engaged in the drug trade or in any other criminal activity.

Isn't murder a separate crime from the crime of distributing controlled substances? Would murder by itself then not fit into the definition of "any other criminal activity besides the drug trade?"

IF the purpose of the UK firearms law is to prevent people from killing other people, why should whatever else they are doing besides killing other people even be relevant when looking at what has happened since the law was passed?

Does the killer of a rival drug dealer get charged with the crime of "taking the life of a rival drug dealer," separate from what the Dunblane massacre guy got charged with? Somehow I don't think so . . .

[iverglas]

99. ya may as well give up

I don't write things that can be twisted, and your puny efforts won't succeed in doing that.

You see, you ask:

Isn't murder a separate crime from the crime of distributing controlled substances? Would murder by itself then not fit into the definition of "any other criminal activity besides the drug trade?"

as if you were quoting someone. Where did this "any other criminal activity besides the drug trade" come from?

Not from what I said:

It was designed to prevent people from being shot, and killed or injured, by people who are not engaged in the drug trade or in any other criminal activity.

I won't explain the difference to you; either you already know and are pretending not to, or explaining it wouldn't help.


IF the purpose of the UK firearms law is to prevent people from killing other people, ...

Interesting premise. Where did you find it? Not in the store where iverglas posts are offered to the public, obviously.


Do play again, now. But I may have to start charging you for your fun. It's not like you're entertaining me.

.

[Romulus]

103. R-e-e-a-l-l-y

It was designed to prevent people from being shot, and killed or injured, by people who are not engaged in the drug trade or in any other criminal activity.

Who are you trying to kid?

[RoeBear]

108. Mighty big of you...

"I am not proposing that firearms possession be made illegal."

...since you're from Canada and have absolutely no say in what goes on here.

[iverglas]

110. and the intelligent person

"...since you're from Canada and have absolutely no say in what goes on here."

That intelligent person would probably have assumed that when I said

"I am not proposing that firearms possession be made illegal."

... I was probably talking not about your "here".

(Our actual "here" is in fact cyberspace, the world wide web, in case you were confused.)

I mean, I can't think of any reason why said intelligent person, who had had a gazillion opportunities in the past few weeks to read my repeated statement that I take no position on the specifics of US firearms laws (and had never seen me take such a position), would have assumed anything else.

Of course, said intelligent person might also wonder what earthly relevance your comment had to the discussion at hand ...

.

[RoeBear]

107. Here we go again...

....blah blah blah. Aren't I smart, read every word I drool out.

[alexwcovington]

5. Come on guys

:P The only thing keeping us from sweeping the South and Midwest is the Gun Control issue, That's why Dean's a winner.

[MrBenchley]

6. Re-e-e-e-eally?

Who are you trying to kid?

[Wcross]

101. I tried to argue that Alexcovington

Apparently, what lost the south and the midwest was rampent racisim in the "Red" states. The thing that swung so many voters was Shrubs visit to Bob Jones University. Yup, its a fact- People really don't care about gun rights as long as they can burn a cross or two every now and again.

At least that is what some genius claimed a while back.

[MrBenchley]

102. Yeah, cross, it was hilarious...

I'm still laughing mty ass off at you pretending Zach Wamp knew his ass from a hole in the ground.

"People really don't care about gun rights as long as they can burn a cross or two every now and again."
Gee, just ask the Gun Owners of America grand wizard Larry Pratt...he's so racist even Pat Buchanan had to run away from his company.

[Wcross]

111. I posted it on the General disc. board-

Crawl on up there and see what kind of posts it got. Can we agree to keep the Bull crap down here in the dungeon? I will not debate with you in the G.D. area.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=520897&mesg_id=520897

[MrBenchley]

118. Gee, and what it got

was a cheap personal attack on me out of the blue from an RKBA loony who's only had a couple of posts...

And not many people think it's a big deal, do they?

"I will not debate with you in the G.D. area."
Ask me if I care what you will or won't do...

[Wcross]

109. Speak of the devil!

I just have to ask myself why Gore lost West Virginia, Tennessee and Arkansas.

[MrBenchley]

120. Or you could ask a real Democrat

instead of Zach Wamp and an asswipe frrom the NRA...

[MrBenchley]

7. One Person Killed, Two Injured In Homewood Shooting

"Three people were shot in the Homewood-Brushton area of the city during the night.
The coroner has confirmed that one of those men has died and two others were injured.
More than eight bullet casings were scattered over the three-block crime scene. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031010/lo_wtae/1825296

[MrBenchley]

8. Man Arrested In Driveway-Shooting Case

"Police have arrested a man in connection with in the shooting death of a Cleveland man who was gunned down in his driveway.
Timothy Holt, 26, was released from prison four months ago after serving seven years for various crimes Anthony Mesic, 48, was shot 12 times while standing in his driveway last month. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031009/lo_wews/1824670

Of course, thanks to the GOP and the corrupt gun industry, Timmy could have walked into any gun show in the state and bought a gun without a background check.

[izzie]

9. Americans love guns and they are going to use them

Who in their right mind would believe if every one has a gun that they will not use them? Hell I had a brother in law that had two pearl handled six shooters that hung over his chair and even had kids in house and he used to shoot them off when he got drunk. The Maine state police finally took all his guns and would not let him have them back and not one of us in the family said a thing. Police and every one thought we were better off.I watched this all over Alaska and they also killed each other in good numbers.Every one having guns does not make one feel safer.I know a vet in Maine that is on 100% because of his mental health and he went out and bought 3 new guns. Make you feel good?We in this country like to use force.

[Oberst Klink]

11. I live in a rural area...

... and all of our neighbors are also armed.

We have NO crime of any kind. Go into town only 3 miles away where you cannot have a gun: lots-o-crime.

When I lived in Oregon, I was friends with a guy who had spent most of his life in an Arkansas prison. He told me that his greatest fear was an armed homeowner.

Criminals, like oppressive governments, prefer their victims UNARMED.

[StClone]

14. Ah the simple life

Gee my area has very little crime and few handgun owners and lots of hunters. Of course an eduction and good jobs are highly prized here.

[MrBenchley]

15. Amazing

how often those who claim they NEED guns, must have gunns, want to carry concealed weapons, etc. etc. etc...also claim to live in crime free Yokel-land.

"oppressive governments, prefer their victims UNARMED."
You mean like Saddam, who ruled one of the most heavily armed countries on earth?

[Wcross]

113. Not a mystery at all.

"how often those who claim they NEED guns, must have gunns, want to carry concealed weapons, etc. etc. etc...also claim to live in crime free Yokel-land."

More guns=Less crime

Does it make sense for a criminal to commit crimes in an area that he will likley be shot and killed? There were 0 Hot break ins for my county last year. How many home invasions did you have in your county last year?

You are real down on rural people aren't you? "Yokel-land"? I lived for a time in the suburbs of Rochester,N.Y., I lived in Silver Springs,MD. for two years. Now I live in rural Tennessee, I will never go back to the other ways of life.
Have you ever lived in the country? Until you try it you might just refrain from voicing an opinion on it.

[forgethell]

46. I've got a gun

Hell, I haven't shot anybody all year. Better yet, nobody has shot me, and there are a lot of guns in my neighborhood. An armed society is a polite society.

[CO Liberal]

47. Actually......

...an armed society has far more gun deaths than an unarmed society.

[RoeBear]

59. Are you trying to be...

...the master of the obvious. We have no car fatalities on Mackinaw Island here in Michigan. Should we use that method for the rest of the country.

[CO Liberal]

64. It's Strictly a Matter of Playing the Odds

More cars - more car accidents

More swimming pools - more drownings.

More guns - more gun deaths.

(Recognize a pattern here?)

[forgethell]

121. No it's not

gun deaths by accident are one thing. They can be tolerated to the same extent as car accidents and drowinings. It is tragic,but a price we choose to pay as a society for the convenience of cars, and the pleasures of guns. But most gun deaths are deliberate. Burglaries gone awry, drive-by shootings, etc. This has a moral component lacking in accidents. Unless we can disarm everyone at once, well, the innocent citizens are going to be at a considerable disadvantage to the crooks. Besides, whatcha gonna do when they come for you,if you don't have a gun. In that case, John Ashroft rules!!

[CO Liberal]

123. Tell Me......

...who in your family or circle of friends would YOU be willing to sacrifice for the pleasure of YOUR guns????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?????

[forgethell]

115. Does it matter

if you are murdered by gun or knife?

[CO Liberal]

116. It's Easier In Many Cases to Fight Off a Knife Attack ....

...than a shooting.

Guns are usually the weapon of choice when someone wants to kill someone else. I mean, the DC area snipers didn't attack by throwing knives at their victims, did they? No - they used a gun.

[forgethell]

122. maybe

but it would be even easier if you had a gun.

[Wcross]

112. I use mine

So for the irresponsible actions of a small minority, all guns should be outlawed? Your Vet friend lied on the yellow form- if you are concerned enough, call the ATF and explain the situation.

I have never fired a gun in the air, never handled my firearms while intoxicated- as a matter of fact, they sit in my gun safe for the most part- with the exception of a pistol and a shotgun.

"Americans love guns and they are going to use them"

How could one "love" a gun? Sure I use my guns, I just don't commit crimes with them.

[MrBenchley]

10. Woman Shot In Crossfire Outside Dry Cleaners

"A 38-year-old woman is among those injured in an apparent shootout outside a dry cleaners on Detroit's east side Thursday afternoon, Local 4 reported.
Police said the shooting started outside the Top Notch Dry Cleaners in the 8000 block of Seven Mile around 1 p.m.
A man driving a green-and-gold sedan was apparently inside the cleaners when three men in a green minivan pulled into the parking lot and started firing shots at the man inside, according to police.
"Two of them stepped out of the minivan. They were armed with guns -- one with a long gun, one with a handgun," said Cmdr. Robert Dunlap, of the Detroit Police Department.
Beverly Lett and her pregnant daughter, Andrea, had to duck for cover after seeing one of the gunmen actually taking aim, Local 4 reported. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031010/lo_wdiv/1824977

[CO Liberal]

13. Murder-suicide suspected in couple's deaths

The picture that's running with this story (both online and in the print version of the paper) sums up the impact the epidemic of gun violence is having on this country. This is the second gun-related murder-suicide in Pueblo in three days - Wayne

Murder-suicide suspected in couple's deaths


CHIEFTAIN PHOTO/MIKE SWEENEY
Officers console a woman, identified as Rose Land, who nearly collapsed after learning her daughter had been killed in an apparent murder-suicide Thursday in Eastwood Heights.

By AMY MATTHEW
THE PUEBLO CHIEFTAIN

For the second time three days, Pueblo police are investigating an apparent murder-suicide involving a husband and wife.

Police were called to a house at 2720 East 17th St. about 5:10 p.m., said Deputy Chief John Ercul. They found the bodies of a man and woman in a back bedroom of the split-level home. They were identified by Pueblo County Coroner James Kramer as Thomas Sanchez, 45, and Renee "Gina" Sanchez, 43. Kramer said the couple died of gunshot wounds. Autopsies will be conducted today, he said.

Deputy Chief John Ercul confirmed that a handgun was found at the scene. The preliminary investigation has led detectives to believe Sanchez shot his wife and then killed himself, according to a press release issued by Sgt. Elias Manzanares. If so, Mrs. Sanchez would be Pueblo's seventh homicide victim this year.

<more>

http://www.chieftain.com/friday/news/index/article/2

[RoeBear]

19. It seems that most newspapers...

...don't run photos like that any more. But it really does bring home the full effect of the tragedy.

[CO Liberal]

23. The Pueblo Chieftain is a Republican-Owned Rag

Maybe they printed that photo in an attempt to win a journalism prize......

[pandatimothy]

16. Lawsuit Pre-Emption going to pass- 10 Dems as cosponsors

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/10/gun_industry_nears_key_goal/

[MrBenchley]

17. Gun industry nears key goal

By the way, the unofficial rule is that you're supposed to use the actual headline in this thread...which says it all in this case.

And so the GOP protects the scummiest industry in America. Shameful in every way.

""We're asking for a chance to go in front of other Americans and ask, `Is the behavior of these manufacturers appropriate?' " former Montgomery County (Md.) police chief Charles Moose said at a news conference this summer, which was called by opponents of Craig's bill. "

The most disgusting quote: ""We have no problem with people going after those who knowingly violate the law," said Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the National Rifle Association, an industry group." Surrrrrre...they just don't want anybody to EVER even try to prove that the scumbags are violating the law..

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

22. Go cry to somebody who gives a shit, slack

"Nice setup with no basis in hard information."
Oh, is THAT all you want?

http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=469

http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=446

http://www.vpc.org/studies/tupstudy.htm

http://www.vpc.org/studies/eddiecon.htm

By the way, care to tell us why the ACTUAL Nazis still skulking in the corners of America today all buy into the phony "gun rights" movement?

http://www.domaindiver.com/FarRight/farrightlinks/links2.htm


http://www.stormfront.org/revision/nazi-law.html

[slackmaster]

26. Note that MrBenchley posted links to regurgitprop but no hard facts

Every link is to a propaganda site. The last two constitute an attempt at guilt by association, another logical fallacy.

MrBenchley has utterly failed to show that his assertion that the gun industry is ...the scummiest industry in America...." is nothing but a blatant attempt to poison the well.

I'm not falling for it MrBenchley.

[MrBenchley]

31. Note that slack is crying now because he GOT the facts he wanted

"I'm not falling for it MrBenchley."
Considering the crap you DO fall for, you should ask me next if I care.

[Wcross]

114. I love it

Every time someone posts a link to a progun site- propaganda!
Everytime MrBenchley links us to the brady bunch or VPC, it is hard facts!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I have also noticed many of my better posts have been deleted- please don't tell us MrBenchley is a moderator!!!!!!!

[MrBenchley]

119. Cry us a river, cross....

"Every time someone posts a link to a progun site- propaganda!"
Which one are you sniveling about now, cross? The Washington Times? Newsmax? CNS?

[slackmaster]

25. MrBenchley Poisons the Well against the gun industry

"...the scummiest industry in America...."

Nice setup with no basis in hard information. A statement seemingly made offhand, as if it reflects a truth that "everyone knows" to be the case.

Once you have laid the foundation of demonization, anything the demonized party does or says and anything said on its behalf or by anyone perceived to be associated with that party (e.g. people who express support for gun ownership) are automatically cast in a negative light.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

It's a simple and often crude sleight-of-hand trick but can be effective if the underlying lie is repeated often enough over a long period of time. Eventually people forget to question the premise.

The Nazis had it down to an art form: The Jews are the scum of the Earth, therefore everything they do is bad and everyone who supports them is part of the Jewish Conspiracy to destroy Germany.

See http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/goebbels.html for a concise writeup of how the Nazis used Poisoning the Well on the greatest scale in history, with terrible results.

The way to counter Poisoning the Well is to demand proof of the assertion:

Let's see it MrBenchley. First explain exactly what you mean by "...the scummiest industry in America...." then show proof that the gun industry meets that description.

From his other posts it's apparent that MrBenchley considers any private individual who has a used firearm to sell to be part of the gun industry. I find that ludicrous, and it casts the net of "scumminess" over a lot of people who have frankly done nothing wrong.

[MrBenchley]

32. So tell us, slack

How come the acctual Nazis that are skulking around in the dim corners of places like...oh, gun shows...are boosting this phony "gun rights" idiocy?

"From his other posts it's apparent that MrBenchley considers any private individual who has a used firearm to sell to be part of the gun industry."
You mean like the ones that peddle their wares in gun show after gun show, slack?

"I find that ludicrous"
When I care what you find, I'll start a thread to alert the whole board.

[slackmaster]

36. Please provide concrete evidence to substantiate your statement

How come the acctual Nazis that are skulking around in the dim corners of places like...oh, gun shows...

Unfounded claim. Sounds like another empty attempt at guilt by association.

[CO Liberal]

37. Here's an Item That May Be Of Interest.

An excerpt:

And saw a whole buncha fat old white-guys selling bayonets, survival gear, pamphplets on evil jews and the new world order, a whole buncha nazi and soviet medals, uniforms, and assorted paraphernalia, and collector items like powder horns from 250 years ago, knives, clips, beef-jerky. Very few actual *guns*, which was what I was there for.

http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/2001.01/0191.html

[CO Liberal]

38. And Another One

An excerpt:

There was too much Nazi memorabilia for sale. Not just vintage pistols and daggers and medals, but training booklets and other propaganda, uniform apparel, and suspiciously new-looking swastika flags. Kinda creepy.


http://substitute.livejournal.com/75943.html

[slackmaster]

41. More people selling collectables

And not even guns apparently. Did you consider the possibility that someone who collects old Nazi crap that is worth money just might not be a Nazi?

[MrBenchley]

44. Evidently we are never

supposed to consider the possibility that someone who collects old Nazi crap is a Nazi...

[slackmaster]

48. Or not

Selling Nazi crap is not proof of Nazism by a long shot.

You're shooting blanks again MrBenchley.

[MrBenchley]

52. Hand us a BIG fucking laugh, slack

Know many normal people who sell Nazi memorabilia, do you?

<sarcasm>"Yeah, ma, some day I'm going to quit the rat race and open a little shop to sell SS mementoes and books denying the Holocaust ever happened.."
"That sounds great, dear. Don't forget the swastika armbands."</sarcasm>

[slackmaster]

70. I'm tired of playing Bait-And-Alert with you today, MrBenchley

I suppose you think anyone selling Nazi memorabilia is part of the "Nazi crap industry".

This thread is turning into pointless flame-bait.

Over and out.

[MrBenchley]

76. Gee, slack, what a shame

I was having such fun dodging your obvious bait.

"I suppose you think anyone selling Nazi memorabilia is part of the "Nazi crap industry"."
I guess NOW you're offended that somebody would refer to Nazi memorabilia as "crap?"

[CO Liberal]

53. Tell Me, Slackmaster.....

...how much "Nazi crap" do the sell at the Simon Weisenthal Center?

[MrBenchley]

60. I went to an Arts and Crafts fair two weeks ago

and didn't see anything with a swastika on it for sale...Nor any thing with a Confederate flag on it, either...

Of course, most of those who went to the Arts & Crafts fair were your liberal/progressive, NPR-listening, birkenstock-wearing crowd....it was pretty crowded, too....

[CO Liberal]

66. I'll Be At A Crafts Show Tomorrow

My wife will be selling her jewelry there. I'll look around - if I see any Nazi memorabilia or copies of "The Turner Diaries" for sale, I'll let you know.

:-)

[MrBenchley]

68. I'll hold my breath (snicker)

Tell your wife good luck for me.

[CO Liberal]

74. Thanks

She started designing and making jewelry earlier this year. This is her first sale to the public.

[slackmaster]

67. Have you seen the rules for a typical major gun show, CO?

Here's a snippet from the rules for exhibitors at the Crossroads of the West gun show, which hits every major venue in several states about four times each year and is visited by over 350,000 people annually

"PROHIBITED ITEMS:
1. Pornographic materials, drug paraphernalia, items
glorifying Nazism, items offensive to the general public.
2. Loaded firearms
3. Loose rounds of ammunition
4. Black Powder
5. Alcoholic beverages, unless sold by the concessionaire
6. Tobacco Products
7. No raffles"

(bold font added by slackmaster for emphasis)

Source: http://www.crossroadsgunshows.com/generalinformation.htm

I've been to the Crossroads show at least 25 times over many years and have never seen anyone selling or giving out real hate literature.

Maybe you or MrBenchley can come up with a few isolated examples of genuine practicing Nazis exhibiting at gun shows now and then, but so what? That does not support the broad-brush demonization that MrBenchley is "peddling" here.

[MrBenchley]

73. Too too funny...

So there's ONE gun show that prohibits such things in WRITING...and that by you proves what?

Gee, why do you suppose the NUMBER ONE rule is "no Nazi crap allowed"? It couldn't be because otherwise they'd be flooded with it?


It's also hilariously funny to note that the "No Nazi crap" rule has more prominence than "no loaded firearms"...ah, those responsible responsible gun owners....

[iverglas]

81. I find the wording curious

From the rules:

items glorifying Nazism, items offensive to the general public.

From slackmaster:

I've been to the Crossroads show at least 25 times over many years and have never seen anyone selling or giving out real hate literature.

(Emphases added.)

Interesting qualifications. I imagine one could sell a whole lot of Nazi stuff without it amounting to "glorifying" under those rules; I wonder why they don't just ban Nazi crap. And I wonder what slackmaster might consider to be "real" and not "real" hate literature, and why that word was needed in that sentence.


This is Thanksgiving weekend, you may not have been aware. Enjoy!

.

[MrBenchley]

85. Happy Thanksgiving!

"And I wonder what slackmaster might consider to be "real" and not "real" hate literature, and why that word was needed in that sentence."
Now that you mention it...that IS a good question...

And you're right--it appears from the wording that some scummy individuals can indeed sell "Nazi crap" at this show....as long as they are discreetly scummy and not blatantly so.

[CO Liberal]

75. That's Just One Set of Gun Shows

And does not apply to ALL gun shows.

[MrBenchley]

77. Notice

it's such a struggle to keep those selling stuff for Nazis out that they have to list that rule BEFORE "no loaded weapons."

Priorities are telling.

[CO Liberal]

51. And Why Would They Sell It At A Gun Show????

Could it be that there are more Nazis there????

[RoeBear]

61. A good friend of mine collects Nazi memorabilia...

...he's Jewish. Go figure.

[MrBenchley]

63. Could be...

[slackmaster]

69. Maybe because thousands of people file through every big gun show

Again you imply that anyone who buys a set of Third Reich swizzle sticks or poker chips is necessarily a Nazi.

Nice try.

[CO Liberal]

78. If They Were That Harmless, They'd Sell Them at Wal-Mart

But since most people find Nazi-related items sick, disgusting, and beneath contempt, they sell them at gun shows.

Along with "The Turner Diaries", targets with Bill Clinton's picture on them, and literature from the John Birch Society.

[MrBenchley]

80. Too too funny....

"anyone who buys a set of Third Reich swizzle sticks or poker chips"

<sarcasm>"Oh, lamby-kins, what kind of swizzle sticks shall we buy for the cocktail party next week? Those with the little plastic martini glasses on them, or these with the Nazi swastika?"

[slackmaster]

40. And that has what to do with the price of onions?

A secondhand account of a "whole buncha fat old white-guys" allegedly selling dodgy political literature, food, and collectables posted on an anonymous forum on the Onternet hardly constitutes proof of what MrBenchley claimed.

How about a peer-reviewed article from a respectable journal of sociology or political science, with some real observations and numbers and thoughtful analysis?

I'm disappointed in you CO.

[CO Liberal]

54. And I'm Disappointed in You

Why can't you admit the plain and simple thruth that there are more Nazis and white supremecists in the ranks of gun show attendees than there are in the general population?

[slackmaster]

71. Because it doesn't matter

[MrBenchley]

82. Perhaps for the same reason

that he has yet to answer why these Nazi and racist groups support the "gun rights" rubbish...

[iverglas]

87. birds of a feather

(html fixed)


Sister organizations, as it were:

http://www.barf.org/articles/0080/

Norma McCorvey's Strange Bedfellows

The “Jane Roe” of Roe v. Wade is now a fixture on the “pro-life” talk circuit. She’s also been quite friendly with the racist editor of a newspaper closely associated with the Christian Identity movement, whose ideas and associations are abhorrent to most people.

In May of 1998, The Jubilee Newspaper reported that McCorvey was a featured speaker at “Jubilation ’98,” a convention hosted by the newspaper and its editor, in Scottsdale, Arizona. Jubilee is a newspaper that is widely recognized as one of the leading publications of the Christian Identity movement. Christian Identity ideology holds that only white "Aryans" are the true "Israel," that is, only they are eligible for salvation in the Christian sense of the word, and that Jews are of Satan. This belief can be found directly on the Jubilee web site as part of the explanation of the newspaper’s viewpoint, as follows:

We understand and teach that the descendants of the Israelites of scripture are the Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian, Celtic, Germanic and European people with whom God has made His covenant. They are the descendants of Abraham. Those who refer to themselves as Jews and are NOT but are of the synagogue of Satan (the adversary)...

The Jubilee Newspaper of May/June, 1998, published a photo of the Jubilee editor, Paul Hall, sitting with his arm around McCorvey at the 1998 conference; there is no question that Hall is responsible for the quote above.

Hmm, Christian Identity. That article contains this quote, too:

How many of you know that this WAR we fight is not about saving our personal bank accounts or reducing our taxes? It’s not about keeping our guns or our right to travel.

"Keeping our guns".

Random sightings:
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/cal_shoot.htm
"The Tim McVeigh and the Christian Identity Connection"

For nearly 50 years, the venomous racist theology of Identity has penetrated through the ranks of Klansmen, neo-Nazis, the Posse Comitatus and racist Skinheads. Now it reaches beyond traditional white supremacists to an expanding network of anti-government extremists. Today, the fanatical anti-Semitic sect fuels the so-called Patriot Movement with paranoid theories of government conspiracies and Biblical justifications for violence.

Identity members subscribe to the "Israel Message." They believe that white people are the true Israelites and that Jews and people of color are subhuman "children of Satan, " who, along with the government, are to be destroyed in an apocalyptic battle. Their hatred of the federal government is their priority. The single most dangerous element in the current militia movement is the expanding network of Identity followers. For them, this is a holy war.

... Because their theology envisions an "end-time" battle in the near future, Identity adherents advocate keeping a well-stocked arsenal and survival gear readily accessible. All are fiercely anti-gun control.

http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showarticle?item_id=98
"Militias, Christian Identity and the Radical Right"

Many of the subculture's current denizens portray themselves as asserting individual rights against federal government encroachment. Their hot issues are gun control, taxation, and the federal raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco. They interpret the Constitution through a kind of "legal fundamentalism." For example, some claim to have discovered the essence of the Constitution in doctrines that raise individual gun possession above the powers of the national government. As one widely circulated militia manual puts it:

Our constitutional liberties are systematically being eroded and denied. The fact that officials are infringing gun rights on every front is simply a manifestation of their inner tendency to empower themselves. Left unchecked, this power will lead to genuine tyranny... The more citizens that own guns, the less willing the government will be to threaten us.

Sheesh, that's sounding too familiar.

The author of that last one is:

Michael Barkun is professor of political science in the Maxwell School at Syracuse University. He it author of Religion and the Racist Right: The Origins of the Christian Identity Movement (University of North Carolina Press). This article appeared in The Christian Century August 2-9, 1995, pp. 738-740. Copyright by The Christian Century Foundation; used by permission. Current Century articles and subscription information can be found at www.christiancentury.org.

and he says:

Whatever cohesion this world possesses comes from its alternative system of communications. Mail-order book services, computer bulletin boards, gun shows, Bible camps, pamphlets, periodicals and short-wave radio broadcasts knit the far right together.

... but I'm sure that's just a rumour, and he's just a hack with no credentials who can't be trusted ...

.

[MrBenchley]

89. Great post!

These are the sort of folks the Democrats should be reaching out to and trying to placate....NOT.

[MrBenchley]

57. Here's another...

"The holes are simply part and parcel of the last leg of the journey to the Franklin County Fairgrounds, in Hilliard, Ohio, where a PRO gun show is being held. Hilliard is a suburb of Columbus, Ohio, and PRO gun shows are generally held in Central Ohio. Some dealers travel with it, while others only get a table when it shows up in their neighborhood. Occasionally there are other gun shows in the area, but the PRO shows are regular, usually one a month. They are known for being rather political. ...The people walking to and from the three fairgrounds buildings hosting the gun show shiver in their windbreakers and jackets. Around the buildings are the pickup trucks and cars of exhibitors and attendees. Many are festooned with bumper stickers: "You Can Have My Gun When You Pry it From My Cold, Dead Body"; "Buchanan for President"; "Impeach Clinton."
Several Nazi flags are in evidence at the gun show, and though most are displayed as militaria, one has to wonder who--other than Marge Schott--might want to buy a Nazi flag. There are some more obvious examples of bigotry. A grim-looking vendor near the front of one of the fairgrounds buildings sits behind piles of material that he is selling which include copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. At another table one can purchase the infamous Turner Diaries, which merely labeling "racist" seems not to do them justice. And several exhibitors have copies of the weekly newspaper, The Spotlight, published by the blatantly anti-Semitic organization The Liberty Lobby, which also helped to fund the Institute for Historical Review, a group that denies the Holocaust ever happened.
The largest booth with political material is run by someone who does not appear to belong to any particular organization, but simply sells such material for a profit. He has dozens of videotapes from the neo-militia movement, ranging from Mark Koernke to Jack McLamb (head of "Policemen Against the New World Order"), and plenty of books and pamphlets. Want to start your own militia group? Here is a pamphlet with some (not so) helpful hints on how to do it. Curious as to why you don't really owe any income tax? You can plunk down some money to find the information "they" have been trying to hide from you. Much of the material, not surprisingly, is Second Amendment stuff, but by no means all. The stock runs from the merely libertarian to the outright paranoid.
If political tracts don't interest you, perhaps you might like a bumper sticker for your car or truck. The vendor offers a wide assortment, from a simple "Clinton Sucks" to "First Hillary, Then Gennifer, Now Us." As you might suspect, they are all of a piece."

http://www.adl.org/mwd/gunshow.asp

Yeah, THOSE are the people Democrats should be trying to attract...in a pig's eye.

[MrBenchley]

39. Gee, slack...since you asked so nicely

" The following excerpt from the Pennsylvania-based Christian Posse Comitatus newsletter The Watchman was found on the home page of Stormfront...'Knowledge is power, go to the Gun shows and buy the how-to books and learn the art of war. ' The "Aryan Nations, militias and the Posse" are lumped together and portrayed only as victims of demonization whose free speech rights are threatened. The Aryan Nations and the Posse Comitatus promote Christian Identity, a vicious antisemitic religious philosophy that often overlaps with neonazi beliefs."

http://www.publiceye.org/media/hardrit.html

"The Turner Diaries is probably the most widely read book among far-right extremists; many have cited it as the inspiration behind their terrorist organizing and activity. Hoping to bring about the Aryan uprising depicted in Pierce's novel, Robert Mathews, formerly a Pacific Northwest representative of Pierce's organization, helped found the 1980s white supremacist gang The Order. Mathews' efforts ended in a fatal shootout with F.B.I. agents in 1984, while other Order members, mostly past associates of the National Alliance and Aryan Nations, were convicted and sentenced to long prison terms for their crimes, which included murders, robberies, counterfeiting and the bombing of a synagogue.
More recently, the Aryan Republican Army, which committed 22 bank robberies and bombings across the Midwest between 1992 and 1996, cited The Turner Diaries as inspiration, as did The New Order, whose members were charged with conspiracy to possess and make machine guns. At the time of their indictment, an F.B.I. agent testified that the group planned to bomb the Anti-Defamation League's New York headquarters, the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama, and the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. It had also talked of bombing state capitols and post offices, and poisoning public water supplies with cyanide.
But The Turner Diaries exerted its most tragic influence on the mind of Timothy McVeigh. Days before he bombed the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding 500 others, McVeigh mailed a letter to his sister warning that "something big is going to happen," followed by a second envelope with clippings from The Turner Diaries.
Testimony also showed that McVeigh sold The Turner Diaries and Hunter, Pierce's follow-up to The Turner Diaries, at weekend gun shows. "

http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/Turner_Diaries.asp

"If she doesn't know what to expect, a woman's trip to her first gun show can make her somewhat testy. This weekend's extravaganza at Cashman Center served as an eye-opening immersion in the world of freedom-loving, government-challenging, large-belt-buckle-wearing white men who love their guns. ...Some tips:
Mask any surprise or disbelief. This will serve you particularly well when you're looking over some of the tables dotted with Swastika patches and white supremacist offerings, like The Turner Diaries and literature that denies the Holocaust. "

http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/2003/05_15/news_upfront1.html

"The National Alliance (NA) is one of the larger neo-nazi groups in the United States . Estimates of its size range from 1,000 to 1,500, and NA activities have been reported in 51 cities. For most of its 27 years it has been, by design, a propaganda machine for the white racist movement, publishing books, a newspaper, audio cassettes, and racist paraphernalia.
More often their tactics are quite blatant. They hang banners in public places, rent booths at gun shows, post materials on public property and distribute their propaganda by hand in suburban neighborhoods. They especially like to exploit incidents of Black-White conflict and local racial tensions in order to elicit interest from potential supporters. "

http://www.prejudiceinstitute.org/NationalAllianceFS.html

""Gun shows have become town-hall meetings for racists and antigovernment radicals," said Gerald Post, director of the political psychology program at George Washington University." Prosecutors of McVeigh have claimed that McVeigh used the gun shows to "fence stolen weapons, make contacts to buy bomb materials and hone his terrorist skills." That most gun-shows attract their share of anti-government and extremist individuals is without argument. In a speech at the University of California-Riverside, Noel Ignatiev, of the Violence Policy Center, said that "gun shows have become Tupperware parties for criminals." Citing a seventy-two page study conducted by the Center, it was stated that "gun shows have become town squares where militia members and the extremist fringe recruit new members and they have become a primary source for stolen military parts." "

http://eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh6.html


"With less emphasis on local public meetings as a recruiting mechanism for the Militia of Montana, John Trochmann has increased his visibility at gun shows and survival "expos" across the country.  In November in Columbus, Ohio, he appeared at what was billed as the first-ever Conspiracy Theory Expo.  A Preparedness and Self-Reliance Expo going on at the same time featured workshops on farming techniques and wilderness survival skills.  Around the corner, the Conspiracy Theory Expo offered an ocean of Patriot literature and videotapes.  James Nichols, brother of alleged Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nichols; Larry Pratt, head of the right-wing Gun Owners of American; and recently arrested militia figure, Mark Koernke, were featured guests along with Trochmann."

http://www.mhrn.org/news/flash16.html

http://www.militiaofmontana.com/Gun%20Show%20Schedue-bakl.htm

[slackmaster]

42. Show us some real data, MrBenchley

Got peer-reviewed research to back up your generalities and anecdotes?

[MrBenchley]

45. Gee, slack...

Ask me next if I care what you want. Now go snivel to someone who does.

[slackmaster]

49. Appeal to Ridicule

In the absence of any real data with which to respond to a serious challenge, a nice personal insult will do.

[MrBenchley]

65. And richly deserved ridicule at that.....

And before you start pretending you got "a nice personal insult" why not remind us how the Nazis got introduced as a subject in the first place. Who was it brought them up?

[CO Liberal]

55. How About You????

Do you have any peer-reviewed research that shows that MrBenchley's position is wrong?????

[slackmaster]

72. Burden of proof

MrBenchley made a testable assertion. I asked for proof. It's not reasonable to expect me to prove a negative.

[Romulus]

88. gee 'B

if those guys have a problem with the Patriot Act, are you going to rush to defend the Act as something worthy of being defended just because racist scum hate it?

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/threadid64471.php

http://www.skinheadz.com/docs/ideology/power.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skinsheadworld88/message/34

Just wondering. . .

[MrBenchley]

90. Gee, rom...

You asked this same irrelevant question yesterday too and it got the answer it richly deserved.

[iverglas]

97. this is fun

http://www.adl.org/explosion_of_hate/activity_nc.asp

Currently, North Carolina NA members use gun shows as a main
venue for attracting new people to the NA. The group is not
always well received at these events. In January 1998, sponsors of
a gun show in Greensboro asked the NA to close shop after
attendees complained about the group's literature. A National
Guardsman ordered Williams and other NA representatives to
leave a gun show at a National Guard Armory in Morrisville,
North Carolina, in April 1996.

"Not always well received" ... not quite the same as never being there. Maybe if everybody starts going to gun shows and complaining -- which seems to be what it took to remove them.

The group's literature has been distributed in Elon College,
Greensboro, and Fayetteville. In May 1997, several NA followers
attended a Confederate Memorial Day rally in Alamance County.
Members have also participated in fund raising. Like other
followers around the country, they have raised money for the
organization by holding gun raffles. A 1996 raffle of an AK-47
semiautomatic rifle allegedly raised nearly $2,000 for the group.

I assume that this would be a private sale, not subject to background check. Now there's a thought to make you want to carry a concealed weapon!


And how about the horse's mouth? Undoubtedly not peer-reviewed ... but perhaps a credible source as to its own activities?

(Yuck, I need a new proxy for going to these places, since my trusty jproxy folded. Know of one?)

http://www.natallmi.com/whats-new.html

July 26, 2003
Northern Michigan members distributed several hundred
literature packets to gun show attendees in Cadillac.

December 8, 2002
Detroit-area members distributed 530 "Why Conservatives
Can't Win" and "Gun Control" pamphlets to residents in
Taylor.

They go to gun shows, and they hate gun control.


More horse's mouth:

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/aesop.htm

My organization, the National Alliance, has been doing some
recruiting in Charlotte, and someone had given a copy of one
of our recruiting leaflets to the reporter at a Charlotte
gun show.

One could just go on and on, couldn't one?

.

[MrBenchley]

100. Not difficult to do at all, is it?

"Confederate flags were in abundance. At least 10 tables sold some rendition of the flag. The first thing I encountered walking in was the table for the Dixie Cotton Exchange. It was actually three tables abreast, laden with signs, bumper stickers, and license plates that revered the South, the Confederacy, the Stars and Bars.
And they had a sideline. Nazi paraphernalia. Insignia, patches, flags, medals, daggers, helmets and rank chevrons. Side by side with the Confederate flags, there was a message there. The sign outside that prohibited cameras and camcorders began to make sense. One bumper sticker stood out at another stand. You have your "X" (a reference to the "X" hats popular after the film Malcolm X), and I have mine, with a picture of the Confederate battle flag, its stars and bars arranged in their "X".
Gun fanatics do not want their public image tarred with overt racism; it's bad politics. But I've never been to a "gun event" where white supremacy, both the Aryan and Confederate variety, wasn't on open display."

http://www.mindspring.com/~scpoint/point/0002/p10.html

"At a news conference, a spokesman for Taxpayers Against the Governor's Recall ran a 10-minute videotape shot by Democratic operatives during now-U.S. Rep. Darrell Issa's failed run for the U.S. Senate in 1998. The video showed an Issa campaign table set up at the entrance to a Southern California gun show; elsewhere on the grounds, the video showed one or more exhibits displaying a flag with a swastika."

http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/story/6960915p-7910019c.html

"Over the past few months, the Militia of Montana (MOM) published a series of articles in its newsletter under the banner "Israel Lie." The articles criticized Israel, and MOM referred to Jews as the "synagogue of Satan." The series of articles align with MOM founder John Trochmann’s Christian Identity beliefs. Christian Identity teaches that people of color are sub-human "mud people" and Jews are the literal children of Satan. Ronald Springel was handed one of the newsletters at a gun show in Spokane, Washington. Calling it "blatantly racist" and "anti-Semitic," Springel asked if the Spokane County Commission had policies to limit the distribution of this type of material at Spokane County Fairground events."

http://www.mhrn.org/news/flash35.html

"Guns were not the only items for sale. Tucked in between the tables of sleek new rifles and a sea of magazine rounds was a display of Nazi memorabilia, from a mammoth swastika flag that could be seen from all over the hall, to silver and coins and jewelry that purportedly had belonged to the Nazis."

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=686

And for a real laugh...here's a gun nut complaining about FAKE Nazi memorabilia...

"Looking over the gun I see this biggest eagle/swastika right above the trigger(the area where Walther banner is usually place on some P38s, or where P38 is also printed). I also see that it has the SVW45 with the 5 point star, hmmm French proofed. Going on I see Guestapo printed right on the slide."

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1963

[slackmaster]

18. Too bad only 10 Democrats have gotten the message

At least the trend is going the right direction for once.

[MrBenchley]

20. Shameful that ten capitulated to the corrrupt thugs...

By the way, slack...I notice you were up on GD in the gun threads there...strange you didn't tell anyone THERE about that crusade to regulate private gun sales you were so het up about yesterday.

Instead you were just posting run of the mill RKBA horsecrap.

[slackmaster]

29. More poisoning the well by Benchley

...corrrupt thugs

Again, no basis in fact, just one of those "facts" that "everyone knows" to be true.

I notice you were up on GD in the gun threads there...strange you didn't tell anyone THERE about that crusade to regulate private gun sales you were so het up about yesterday.

It would have been off-topic there. My plan is not yet fleshed out enough for exposure on the broader-interest forums. I like to hash things out in a hostile environment like this to get the bugs worked out.

You could be helpful by pointing out specific weaknesses in my plan, but you seem intent on bashing the whole thing. I guess I'm part of the "scummiest industry in America" so you won't give me the time of day. Too bad. I would value your constructive input.

[MrBenchley]

30. Cry us a fucking river, slack

"Again, no basis in fact"
Only to those in the RKBA crowd who have closed their mind to all but the brand of "facts" peddled by John Lott and Ted Nugent.

"I would value your constructive input." Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrre.....

[Withergyld]

27. WHY Daschle changed his mind

From the article:
"It is a misuse of the civil justice system to try to punish honest, law-abiding people for illegal acts committed by others without their knowledge or involvement," Daschle said two weeks ago. He began promoting the legislation after gun supporters agreed to specify that firearms manufacturers and distributors would not be protected from lawsuits involving defective products or illegal sales.

[slackmaster]

28. He's right

This bill would never have seen the light of day if not for the ongoing efforts by greedy lawyers like the Violence Policy Center, Brady Campaign, et al to fatten their own wallets with misspent public funds.

A pox on the houses of the unethical attorneys who made thes bill necessary, and a curse on the state and local officials who got into bed with them, and on all future generations of their families.

OK, I'll cut the future generations some slack. That was a little over the top.

[RoeBear]

43. Cutting slack...

...well you are the Slackmaster aren't you?

"OK, I'll cut the future generations some slack."

[slackmaster]

50. I'm willing to fight for Slack

Nothing else matters as much to me.

[Spoonman]

34. It just goes to show you

what A REAL DEMOCRAT is!

[CO Liberal]

62. That Makes Sense

He began promoting the legislation after gun supporters agreed to specify that firearms manufacturers and distributors would not be protected from lawsuits involving defective products or illegal sales.

If a gun manufacturer truly made a defective product or funnelled it through illegal channels to get it to the marketplace, then they SHOULD be subject to lawsuit. And criminal action if applicable.

[MrBenchley]

24. Investigators Identify Suspect In Deputy Shooting

"A sheriff's deputy in Sumter County, Fla., was shot in the upper torso Thursday night while chasing a suspect he attempted to pull over for a traffic violation, according to Local 6 News.
Investigators said deputy Edward Fritz was shot on county Road 656 near Croom in western Sumter County.
Police have identified the suspect as Rian Green.
Green has active warrants for violation of probation from Hillsborough County, Florida. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031010/lo_wkmg/1825087

Thanks to the corrupt gun industry and the GOP, Green could have walked into any gun show in the state and armed himself without a background check.

[MrBenchley]

33. Missouri to Keep Gun Permit List Secret

"The new state law authorizing concealed guns, enacted when the Legislature overrode Gov. Bob Holden's veto last month, also bars identification of concealed weapons permit holders — even though separate applications to sheriffs to purchase guns have been open records for years, and remain so.
U.S. National - AP
Missouri to Keep Gun Permit List Secret
Fri Oct 10, 8:22 AM ET

Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!

By SCOTT CHARTON, Associated Press Writer

COLUMBIA, Mo. - If Missouri sheriffs begin issuing permits this month to pack hidden handguns, they will also be concealing the names on the projected 60,000 people who hold them.

 

The new state law authorizing concealed guns, enacted when the Legislature overrode Gov. Bob Holden's veto last month, also bars identification of concealed weapons permit holders — even though separate applications to sheriffs to purchase guns have been open records for years, and remain so.
An Associated Press review of the four concealed gun laws enacted this year — in Colorado, Minnesota, Missouri and New Mexico — showed that each bars public identification by name of permit holders.
Legislation was filed but not approved this year in at least two other states — Tennessee and Texas — to close currently accessible listings by name of concealed gun permit holders.
"This is bad public policy on so many levels that it boggles the mind. What the legislators have essentially done is allow government only to have that data, so therefore the public has no way to answer any questions about the holders of these permits," Davis said. "This essentially says there is no public interest in knowing who has concealed weapons permits, and I would disagree fundamentally with that." "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031010/ap_on_re_us/concealed_guns_secrecy_2

Face it, folks, they wouldn't be hiding it unless there was something to hide.

[MrBenchley]

35. Mother provoked shooting, police say

"Angered by comments from a teen she passed in an apartment hallway, police say, Doris Dunbar recruited her mentally ill son to shoot the boy -- and shot a second person herself.
She surrendered to police Thursday, eight days after William Malone, 16, was shot to death.
Her son, Joey Dunbar, 24, turned himself in Wednesday. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/kr/20031010/lo_krindianapolis/motherprovokedshootingpolicesay

Another family made safer with guns....

[bring_em_home_bush]

104. ~

Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat.
Hermann Goering

[iverglas]

105. and the proof is in the pudding

Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat.
Hermann Goering


Nothing like a quote from a Nazi to illustrate the intersection between the "Nazi" and "gun-lover" sets.

I mean, I trust that this was the point of the post. Surely no one would quote a Nazi ... with approval.



It's quite likely that there are those here who don't get the joke. The "guns or butter" dichotomy is the classical description of the economics of politics, the either/or choices that must be made by governments with limited resources -- spending to enhance the state's ability to defend itself ... or to engage in aggression, or spending to enhance the public welfare. We all know what the Nazis chose; Goering obviously had no doubts.

One might also apply the model to the political choices made by individual members of the public -- demand guns for themselves, or demand butter for others ...

.

[MrBenchley]

106. Well put...

[FlashHarry]

124. Locking

This thread is no longer current.

FlashHarry
DU Moderator