Would someone be so kind

[leanings]

as to enlighten me regarding the details of cop killer bullets and plastic guns? I read in another thread that these terrible implements are a significant threat to the very fabric of our society. Perhaps some one could reveal exactly how many cop's lives these bullets have claimed and what evil genius is malign and brilliant enough to manufacture a plastic gun.

[pandatimothy]

1. Cop Killer Bullets is a false term

ANY regular FMJ or soft point ammo can punch through a bullet proof vest if of sufficient caliber.

ONLY the military can really get "armor piercing" ammunition and thats for shooting tanks.

AP is REALLY, REALLY expensive too.

Finally plastic guns are toy guns you buy at Castleland or Toys'R' Us.

Real guns ain't plastic.

[0rganism]

2. Web searching does get some hits for an all-polymer firearm patent

Could be an urban myth. I used the terms (plastic firearm "Red Eye Arms"), got back a few hits -- Red Eye Arms being the guys who allegedly hold the alleged patent. This article was on the AP wire at one time, FWIW, I snagged it out of a google cache, cleaned it up a bit. Note that the article is from 1988, as it makes reference to "Rep Dick Cheney of Wyoming", and the wire date. So if the patented item actually existed in prototype then, it would likely already be in production were it feasible and popular.
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AP880511-0021 AP-NR-05-11-88 0757EDT r w PM-PlasticGuns Bjt 05-11 0526 PM-Plastic Guns, Bjt,530

Plastic Handgun Ban Clears House, Prospects Good in Senate
By LARRY MARGASAK Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) Legislation to ban undetectable plastic firearms could clear the Senate Judiciary Committee this Thursday, just two days after the House approved a similar bill with a calm that rarely accompanies gun control measures. A smooth ride for the legislation was virtually assured two weeks ago, after Attorney General Edwin Meese III and law enforcement groups agreed to a compromise version and the National Rifle Association went along. The NRA agreed to avoid a bruising gun control battle in Congress when it became clear that no existing handguns would be prohibited under the agreement.

Plastic guns are not yet a reality, but chief House sponsor William J. Hughes said Tuesday the firearms could be a weapon of choice for terrorists in the future. His colleagues agreed, passing the bill 413-4. The Senate Judiciary subcommittee on the Constitution, meanwhile cleared a similar bill by Sen. Howard M. Metzenbaum for action by the full committee. The full panel meets again on Thursday, and the gun bill is on the agenda.

The Hughes bill would make it illegal to manufacture, import, sell, transfer or possess a plastic firearm, defined as a weapon with less than 3.7 ounces of metal. Maximum penalties would be five years in prison, and fines of $250,000 for individuals and $1 million for organizations. The bill contains a ``sunset'' provision that would repeal the criminal provisions after five years, enabling the law to keep pace with any advances that may occur in firearms detection technology.

Voting against the House measure were Republican Reps. Dick Cheney of Wyoming; Philip Crane of Illinois; Norman Shumway of California and Barbara Vucanovich of Nevada.

Hughes' bill was introduced before the administration-police compromise, but embodies the same concept. The more precise language is in the Senate version, which would establish a detectability standard that would permit detection of the same weapons as the Hughes bill. However, it does not provide for a minimum content of metal in the gun.

Both measures would detect all existing hanguns, thus keeping them legal for law-abiding owners. But plastic weapons that failed to meet the same metallic standard would be prohibited.

Metzenbaum, D-Ohio, called the House vote ``a major step in the right direction. I look forward to working with Congressman Hughes to make sure the Congress sends the president the strongest bill possible,'' he said Tuesday. Hughes said he saw no problem in working out a compromise between the House and Senate language.

A Winter Park, Fla., company that claims to be the leader in plastic firearms technology says it has no plans to produce plastic handguns. Dwight C. Brunoehler, vice president of Red Eye Arms Inc., said the company was working on a plastic machine gun grenade launcher that it hopes to sell to the Marines. ``We see the military business as where we want to be,'' he said, adding the company will be working on that project for at least the next two years. He said the company also has pledged never to make an undetectable plastic weapon.
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So they're not at all impossible, which makes sense because some polymers (and ceramics) are every bit as tough as metals, but the patentholders apparently weren't planning on making them. One could certainly imagine a plastic handgun that would be good for one or two shots, or perhaps one with removable chamber and barrel that could be disguised as a pen and zippo lighter, or some such. It would be james bond stuff, to be sure, not really something to be produced commercially.

Congress banned them "pre-emptively", I guess you could say. It seems interesting that some (e.g. Cheney) opposed the ban, despite the nonexistence of such weapons at the time.

Here's another AP wire article from 2 days later
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AP880513-0012 AP-NR-05-13-88 0123EDT r w PM-PlasticGuns 05-13 0468 PM-Plastic Guns,440
Ban On Plastic Guns Clears Senate Committee
By LARRY MARGASAK Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) An anti-terrorism bill to ban undetectable plastic handguns is ready for a full Senate vote after receiving unanimous approval from the Judiciary Committee. The committee voice vote Thursday came two days after the House voted 413-4 for a similar bill to regulate a potential weapon of choice for terrorists in the future.

Plastic guns are not a problem now, because nobody is making them. A company that possesses a patent to develop plastic weapons, Red Eye Arms of Winter Park, Fla., says it's only interested in developing guns for the military at this time.

The legislation is advancing quickly without the rancor that usually accompanies gun control issues. The breakthrough came when law enforcement groups heavily lobbied Attorney General Edwin Meese III to support what is now the Senate Judiciary Committee language, and he agreed. Once it became clear that no existing small metal handguns would be banned, the powerful National Rifle Association agreed to go along with the bill, sponsored by Sens. Howard M. Metzenbaum, D-Ohio, and Strom Thurmond, R-S.C.

Metzenbaum said he hopes to win a unanimous Senate agreement for quick floor action. The legislation, he said, is needed ``to protect our airplanes, our court houses and our public buildings.'' Thurmond added: ``The Secret Service has expressed concern over its reliance on metal detection equipment at the White House and at other events attended by the president, because this equipment can be circumvented by firearms with insufficient metal.

``As a result, the lives of the president and other high-level officials who depend on this equipment are at great risk -- a risk which will be reduced by adoption of this bill.''

The Senate legislation, while aimed at plastic weapons, would require that all firearms be as detectable as a 3.7-ounce stainless steel handgun. All guns currently manufactured or imported into the United States would meet the test. While the Senate bill sets a dectability standard, the House-passed measure requires that the gun itself contain 3.7 ounces of metal. The House bill, sponsored by Rep. William J. Hughes, D-N.J., deals specifically with plastic guns, while the Senate measure sets a standard for firearms in general.

The Senate measure also would require all guns to be detectable by X-ray machines used at airports. All federal security checkpoints would have to be equipped with metal detectors capable of distinguishing a 3.7-ounce stainless steel gun from innocuous metal articles commonly carried by individuals. The standard would require that state-of-the-art magnetometers be installed. Other Senate provisions would prohibit possession of a firearm in a federal courtroom; and increase penalties for some offenses, including illegal possession of explosives in airports and use or possession of explosives in commission of a federal felony.
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Guess they didn't think of establishing federal standards for boxcutters. *sigh*

From the FWIW/YMMV department.

[DoNotRefill]

7. Heh...3.7 oz of metal...

what if they made a small caliber titanium gun that weighed 3.5 oz (think NAA .22 revolver) but didn't have any plastic in it? Would that then become a "plastic gun"?

[0rganism]

10. According to the legislation...

...if it wasn't as detectable as a gun with 3.7 ounces of metal, it would be as illegal as the infamous plastic gun, whether it was plastic or not.

[a2birdcage]

3. No such thing as either.

The term "cop killer" was created by gun banners in an attempt to scare the public once again with more rhetoric. A bulletproof vest made of Kevlar will stop almost all handgun ammunition regardless of what type of bullet it is. This includes all FMJ (full metal jackets), hollow points, soft points, and the so-called teflon coated bullet. Most rifle ammunition will penetrate a Kevlar vest because a Kevlar vest was never designed to stop rifle ammunition. It's that simple.

As far as the term "plastic gun" this was also made up to scare the general public. Plastic has been used in firearm for over forty years but there are no guns that are pure plastic. No gun manufactured today would ever have a chance of making it through a metal detector.

I'm glad you decided to ask what and why instead of just accepting that if the media said they exist then they must. I wish more people used your thought process.

[7th_Sephiroth]

13. .50 cal Balck talons

back when they were legal my uncle bought some and he shot straight through cop armor he hung on a target at a shooting range

[Man_in_the_Moon]

14. BLack Talons are still legal

They were voluntarily removed from the "civilian" market by the manufacturer. They are still offered on the "LEO" market (they are 'LEO' only because of tax paid on them), albeit with a different color paint job on the bullet, and a different name.

They were were a victim of overhyped media ignorance. They were not anymore effective as any other hollow-point expanding round on the market.

[a2birdcage]

15. Was your uncle.......

a cop? It is my understanding that most kevlar used by police officers will not stop a .50AE without the insertion of trauma plates. I'm willing to guess that other .50AE's would have penetrated the vest as well. The kevlar in use by police officers is designed to stop common handgun loads such as 9mm, .40, .45, .357 and so forth. .50AE is not a common handgun load.

[leanings]

16. hmmm...

Winchester pulled the Black Talon in '93 and the .50 AE Desert Eagle wasn't introduced until '94...sure it was a .50 black powder ?

[MrBenchley]

4. Be happy to

Congress outlawed these things years and years ago....annd about the only loony who voted FOR them was Deadheart Dick Cheney.

[a2birdcage]

5. Way to not.........

answer his question.

[Tinfoil]

6. Do a search for

the "Glock 7"

It's the first time I believe a plastic gun was mass-produced... tough to find though.. last one I heard about was when some guy got through security in IAD several years ago (late 80s I think). Fortunately there was a NYPD cop waiting to pick up his wife hanging around the airport, so he managed to kill that terrorist and about 20 of his friends.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

9. I remember hearing about that

wasnt it during a big snow storm?

[Tinfoil]

11. yeah

Real bad year, too...

Do a search for terrorists dulles snow storm glock 7 and I think you might find a link to a documetary that was made about the incident several years ago.

Real high quality one... did wonders for the aviation community, as well.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

12. two plastic guns were made

one was in Die Hard II, as mentioned before.

The other one John Malkovich made in In the Line of Fire.

Get your facts straight

[Liberal Classic]

8. No such thing as a plastic gun

The whole "plastic gun" had to do with the Glock, which was an innovative design of steel and platic parts. The barrel and bolt are made of high grade steel and the frame and grip are of high-impact plastic. This makes for a reliable, light weapon favored by law enforcements and military contracts. However, there is no such thing as a "plastic gun" as reported on the news, because the spring, barrel, and bolt contain significant amounts of metal and no Glock is invisible to metal detectors. I don't know how this rumor got its start but it is fantasy. Glock pistols are not made of plastic. I should know, I have one.

The whole "cop killer bullet" is another misconception. Almost any bullet can kill, but specifically this means rounds that can penetrate body armor. The first thing I have to say is that kevlar body armor is not proof from all bullets. In reality, kevlar jackets use by law enforcement are meant to withstand penetration from low velocity (subsonic) pistol ammunition, such as .38 caliber and 9 milimeter. There's nothing magic about hollow points or full metal jacket when it comes to body armor, it is all about force of impact equalling mass times acceleration. A heavier and higher velocity round is going to defeat body armor, whereas a smaller and slower projectile will not. Even the heavy flak jackets worn by the military are not designed to stop rifle fire, they're actially meant to protect from shrapnel from grenades and artillery from penetrating the torso. Lastly and most importantly, almost *all* rifles will defeat body armor, except maybe .22 caliber subsonic target rifles.

So there you go. So-called "plastic guns" don't exist. And it isn't the "cop killer" bullet, but the velocity which is important in defeating body armor.