Dean, the NRA on guns

[ModerateMiddle]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/924508.asp

Neither the Cubs nor the Sox made it to the World Series, but one near-impossible seems to have happened: the Democratic Leadership Council and Dean are on the same page on an issue — guns. The DLC and Americans for Gun Safety released a poll yesterday showing that Democratic candidates who are pro-gun, yet who also emphasize gun safety, do much better with voters. Although no one from the DLC would endorse a Democratic presidential candidate at the event, AGS president Jonathan Cowan had kind words for DLC nemesis Dean on Dean’s pro-gun views: “Dean has handled this issue well,” he said. “Dean is trying to take back the Second Amendment.”

The NRA, however, isn’t as impressed with Dean, even though it gave him an A rating when he was governor. “Howard Dean, in the words of Wayne LaPierre, is schizophrenic on the gun issue,” said NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam. “As governor, he did have a good record, but since he began his quest for the presidency, he changed his position” — referring, for example, to Dean’s support for the assault weapons ban. And demonstrating in the process how Dean and other Democrats can talk up support for the Second Amendment until they’re blue in the face, but if they don’t entirely support the NRA’s agenda, the group will still view them as anti-gun.

The NRA relishes it's near cabinet level position in the Bush administration. Anyone who thinks that Dean is immune from the gun issue in the south is seriously deluded.

[MrBenchley]

1. Good post

“Howard Dean, in the words of Wayne LaPierre, is schizophrenic on the gun issue,”
Gee, since Wayne himself is a near-psychotic bit of trash...

[Bertha Venation]

3. you read my mind

Strange to know that many obviously agree w/ LaPierre. When I have more time, I'm going to have to post about my encounters on the issue on a local (Southern Maryland) message board I frequent. Most of the regulars are quite conservative folk, and most of them gun owners & NRA members. It's been depressingly enlightening.

I'm not sure where I stand re: Gov. Dean's stance on guns. I think I need to put in some concentrated thought & reading, then get the fence pole out of my butt. :crazy:

[MrBenchley]

9. I too frequent boards with conservatives

and I doubt that anyone who takes a word from the NRA seriously would ever vote Democratic under any circumstances.

"I'm not sure where I stand re: Gov. Dean's stance on guns."
I think he's playing it both ways....but he HAS said he supports the assault weapons ban and supports closing the gun show loophole.,...both eminently sensible peices of legislation.

[1a2b3c]

36. Damn the KKK

Iverglas rules.

[juancarlos]

4. Should attack the positions, not the man.

Please attempt an attack on the man's positions, instead of on the man.

[MrBenchley]

5. Sez you...

Orrin Hatch is a scumbag.

[juancarlos]

6. Thanks for the update.

On Hatch. Since it appears to me that you won't engage in discussion, only attack, I hereby <plonk> you. Have a wonderful day in New Jersey, goodbye MrBenchley.

[MrBenchley]

7. Ta ta...

Don't let the door hit you in the ass....

[RoeBear]

2. It's hardly surprising that ...

...the NRA will back Bush over Dean in 2004. Bush is certainly closer to being on the same page, in respect to gun control, then Dean is.
That said Dean can still seriously take a bite out of edge sitters om the area of gun control. Gun owners who don't have the second amendment as a top priority but as a secondary consideration will certainly consider Dean if they like him in other respects.

[juancarlos]

8. I agree,

if gunowners perceive Dean to be pro-gun, then he will get votes from the people who are Democrats at heart, but won't normally vote Democrat due to the gun issue.

[iverglas]

12. hey, Roe

Speaking of your "hardly surprising"!

Whaddayathink of our new chum's name?

Bertha Venation. Say it out loud.

Then go look up "Birth of a Nation" at Google.

Some people find the "ringing excitement surrounding the founding of the Ku Klux Klan" expressed in that movie a little "problematic". How 'bout you??

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305130949/104-7051453-4011100?v=glance


I'm sure anybody who's reading will alert Roe if he's not reading me. 'Cause I'm sure he'll have something to say about this one.

.

[-..__...]

14. You need to Google more.

'Bertha Venation' is a drag queen from Harvey Fierstein's "Torch Song Trilogy".

BV's avatar is the logo for the Human Rights Campaign; a Gay, Lesbian and Bi-sexual rights
organization. I highly doubt the user name has anything to do with praising the KKK if
that's what you're suggesting.

[iverglas]

16. theories, like opinions

We all got 'em.

Yours may be more consistent with some of the facts; mine was certainly consistent with a whole shitload of past experience.

.

[-..__...]

19. What experiance is that?

Likewise we all have our experiences and can make assumptions or judgements based on them.

I've had vast experience with firearms, a varying degree with racists in general and some experience
with hate groups like the Klan. In all that time I've never equated one with the other just because
of a bad experience or few bad apples. I've read enough posts here from unnamed individuals that
are unable or unwilling to make that distinction.

[MrBenchley]

21. Yeah, we all do have our experiences, D_S

MY experience is that pretty much every racist in this country is on board with this bogus "gun rights" crap...and that the largest organization of gun owners identifies pretty much everyone oposed to racism as part of its enemies list.

And THAT's a FACT.

[slackmaster]

30. Pretty much every racist in this country likes beer too

Does that mean that beer drinkers are racists?

"...and that the largest organization of gun owners identifies pretty much everyone oposed to racism as part of its enemies list."

I disagree.

Here is a brief list of sites that have lists of anti-racist organizations that aren't on the NRA's list of anti-gun organizations.

http://www.seattleraceconference.com/links.aspx
http://www.oregonspotlight.org/resources.htm
http://www.shastalink.k12.ca.us/noracism/Links.html
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2788/otheranti.html
http://www.art-teez.org/links1.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/yt/sharptor/ar.html
http://www.magenta.nl/crosspoint/remarks.html
http://www.cyberska.com/links.html
http://www.imusa.org/links/index.shtml

Most of the NRA's "enemy" organizations have nothing to do with race.

[MrBenchley]

48. DO let us know when David Duke advertises for Budwesier

"Here is a brief list of sites that have lists of anti-racist organizations that aren't on the NRA's list of anti-gun organizations."
TOO TOO funny...the first link is local groups in the Seattle area.

The second link is groups in Oregon...which include links to groups that ARE on the NRA list, and THIS in-depth look at one of the more malignant specimens in the state:

"Some of the items seized under one or both of the search warrants include the following: Machine guns, modified 20mm cannon, 37mm grenade launcher and hand-grenades, parts for a .50 caliber machine gun, tri-pod mounted 30 caliber semi-automatic, belt-fed copy of a Browning 1919 machine gun, silencers, sawed-off shot gun, dynamite, binary explosives, chemicals to make C-4 explosives, numerous hand guns, rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition. "

He is a member of the Army of God which uses gun shows to recruit.

This gets funnier and funnier. Wonder how many of these groups you've linked to think the gun rights crowd and the NRA are good clean fun?

[iverglas]

49. "Army of God which uses gun shows to recruit"

And let's not forget what it's recruiting *for*.

The "Army of God" maintains the "Nuremberg Files" website, where the names and addresses of, and other personal info on, individuals who provide abortion services in the US are listed ... and where those individuals' names are crossed off if they are murdered.

(Once they're dead, their identities are no longer needed for purposes of prosecution once the retroactive law making abortion "homicide" is enacted, doncha see. The list is certainly not intended as a field guide for firearms owners looking to reduce the herd of abortion providers. I mean, quelle idée, that someone would want to kill physicians and nurses and security guards providing a legal medical service. The Army of God would never suspect that anyone would do such a thing, let alone that anyone would use their website for useful information for that purpose, and the Army of God certainly does not do anything like celebrate if that should happen.)

www.google.ca/search?q=cache:oAl381GZynkJ:www.splcenter.org/
intelligenceproject/ip-4m6.html+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
This page from the Southern Poverty Law Center is available now only in Google's cache (and is determined not to make an intelligible clickable link):

Starting the Revolution

On Dec. 3, near Sacramento, Calif., authorities uncovered an alleged plot to blow up two 12-million-gallon propane tanks, a television tower and an electrical substation. FBI agents said that Kevin Patterson, 42, and Charles Kiles, 49, hoped to provoke an insurrection against the government. Illegal weapons and explosives, along with manuals with titles like Disruptive Terror and Deadly Brew: Advanced Improvised Explosives, were found in the men’s homes.

Kiles had been convicted in 1992 of weapons violations, and once reportedly led a now-defunct militia group. Patterson was reportedly involved with the extremist Republic of Texas and other Texas antigovernment groups. Court documents also describe Patterson as an illegal methamphetamine "cook," and say that the alleged plot was put off when one of the men decided to wait to "see what happened in California at the end of the millennium." The Reno (Nev.) Gazette-Journal reported that the two men had attended the Reno Gun Show in November and may have been planning an attack on a Reno clinic where abortions are performed.

Five days after the California arrests, authorities charged Donald Beauregard -- the former leader of a militia coalition called the Southeastern States Alliance -- with plotting to steal explosives from National Guard armories. According to the federal indictment, Beauregard was conspiring to blow up power lines to St. Petersburg, Fla., and Atlanta; intended to kill a militia member he suspected of being an informant; and helped train other extremists how to manufacture explosives.

At around the same time, officials in Muncie, Ind., say they were contacted by FBI agents who warned them the "Delaware County Army of God" was threatening to kill local judges and law enforcement officials by the end of the year.

Yum, yum.

.

[MrBenchley]

50. Ah, the gun rights crowd

in its purest form...

Those are the sort of vermin we should be pandering to as a party, all right.

[a2birdcage]

31. No......

that's just an opinion.

[iverglas]

22. experience

with people using funny names and having very low post counts.

What you're talking about, beats me.

.

[-..__...]

25. If that's what you meant...

then why not post it that way? Why make allusions to "Birth of a Nation" and
the "ringing excitement surrounding the founding of the Ku Klux Klan". Is it relevant?
Or was there some implication to be made? You mention experience with regards to
"funny names" (welcome to the Internet) and low post counts. I can't ignore what seems to be
a veiled response that gun owners/NRA = racists. And lets be honest about that, whether
you agree with that opinion or not, you have to admit that it's unfair and been posted
incessantly.

[iverglas]

45. Horton hears a Who

"I can't ignore what seems to be a veiled response that gun owners/NRA = racists."

The operative word here would seem to be "seems", and the little omission would seem to be "to D_S".

"If that's what you meant... then why not post it that way?"

Uh, I did.

"Why make allusions to 'Birth of a Nation' and the 'ringing excitement surrounding the founding of the Ku Klux Klan'. Is it relevant?"

Uh, yes. The "funny name" in question is a homonym for "Birth of a Nation". That was kinda the point, do you see?

The fact that YOU apparently don't know what "Birth of a Nation" is (while I, a mere insignificant foreigner, do) isn't my problem. If you're actually saying that you didn't grasp the connection between "Birth of a Nation" and the poster's name -- the connection on which my comment was based, the obvious and completely unmistakable connection by virtue of the fact that when said aloud the two things are identical ... well, I just can't help you.

"Or was there some implication to be made?"

The "implication" being made -- which I thought was actually a clear statement, not just an "implication" -- was that I find people who name themselves after racist propaganda films to be, well, strange.

"I can't ignore what seems to be a veiled response that gun owners/NRA = racists."

And I don't care whether you (a) are unable to understand what is on the monitor in front of your nose, or (b) choose to misconstrue it. I have no control over either your general knowledge or your intentions. What you may not do is ascribe intentions to me or meanings to my words that are not there.

"And lets be honest about that, whether you agree with that opinion or not, you have to admit that it's unfair and been posted incessantly."

Well gosh, as long as we're being honest, let's agree that the correlation between firearms ownership and voting Republican -- i.e. voting for a party that is anti-choice, anti-gay rights, anti-trade unions, anti-diversity (to name just the few that Benchley recently did) -- is amazingly strong, if we use the firearms fans' own facts and argument.

As for Bertha's indignant responses here, I do believe that the words expended in them exceed the total of all other words posted at DU to date on all other topics combined. I'm not the only one who prickled at that name, and I'm not rushing to any judgment now any more than I was in the first place.

The name in question apparently had a place in a piece of literature where the joke was evident and served some purpose. Out of context, it is just out of context.

And now I am sure that nobody ever again will question my own bona fides when I refer to bumbling idiots with guns as Trailer Park Boys. Just another of those cultural allusions that I should really be entitled to expect the rest of the world to get, shouldn't I? -- and that in fact I apologized for when I first employed it, in recognition of the fact that it was too obscure for this context and wasn't funny outside its own context, i.e. to those who didn't get it. (And anybody who still doesn't should just google.) I didn't actually tell those who had never seen the falling-down hilarious television series, and thought that I was expressing cultural snobbery, that their incomprehension was their problem.

And anybody who's "insulted" by the inference that someone whose handle is "Birth of a Nation" might be less than sincere should maybe grow thicker skin and stop expecting the rest of the world to get their own little "in" jokes. If that's what they were.

.

[1a2b3c]

37. You must be one of those people

Who never had a low post count. In the year ive been here ive seen many of you. "I am better than you....I have 5000 posts and you only have 4" Damn i hate them people.

[demsrule4life]

42. This site is worse at

giving people with low post counts a hard time then the military is with 2lt's.

[Bertha Venation]

43. low post count = ???

Am I unaware of some forum rule that says "get thy post count as high as possible as quickly as possible?"

Perhaps low post count is thought to be indicative of lack of devotion or commitment to the Democratic Party. Too bad. I'm registered Dem but I don't vote a ticket. I vote the way I decide to vote, not the way the party thinks it can tell me to vote.

Maybe the PIQ didn't realize I am a woman (a simple profile click...) and imagined my low post count had something to do with the size of my genitalia. Or perhaps he felt compelled to act like someone from the Free Republic forums. :evilgrin:

No matter. To me this "low post count" thing seems to be the equivalent of petty, provincial newbie sh*t I have seen on other boards.

[iverglas]

44. how entertaining

"Maybe the PIQ didn't realize I am a woman (a simple profile click...) and imagined my low post count had something to do with the size of my genitalia. Or perhaps he felt compelled to act like someone from the Free Republic forums." (emphasis added)

My own profile doesn't provide that information (as I must assume you knew, as a matter of following one's own wise counsel and all that: "a simple profile click ..."). And yet you assume.

It's just a funny thing about so very many people at DU with low post counts, especially in this particular forum. Two funny things, actually. There are so disproportionately many of them here, and their counts just never do get much higher.

I trust that you are now clear, if indeed you were not, as to the meaning of my low-post-count mention. Nothing whatsoever to do with, and not at all equivalent to, "petty, provincial newbie sh*t" (hmm, talk about yer "provincial"); everything to do with -- here, let me kinda spell it out -- the common phenomenon of posts by people whose intentions are less than sincere, and who often are, in reality, very much not "newbies", and their (re)incarnations in this forum. But then a newbie wouldn't know about that, and might just leap to some other conclusion.

You may well be the exception to that pretty tried and true rule. I shall look forward to many illuminating posts having a little more substance than mere one-line commentary on George W. Bush's pronunciation of the big words, or lengthy complaints about misunderstood remarks.

.

[Bertha Venation]

32. Well, this certainly has been interesting reading.

Iverglas, since I'm a newbie, I'll refrain from telling you what I think of your startling jump to conclusion about my handle.

D_S is exactly right. I took my handle from Harvey's play/film. I like it. It's clever. It tickles me. I started using it when the GLBT/friendly chorus I was with for seven years began listing the amount of its members' donations in each program. I thought that was ridiculous so I took a pseudonym: Bertha Venation. It was a joke for the benefit of our audience members, and became a topic of laughs at the lobby after-parties. No one in the chorus (save the treasurer) even knew who it was.

I am well aware of the inference some people might draw from the handle. To them--to you--I say, that's your problem. I'd be insulted by that inference, but life's too damn short to draw insult from someone else's ignorance. I know who I am, and I'm not some racist spy come to upset the apple cart until I'm discovered and banned.

Iverglas, I believe I've addressed your erroneous theory about my name. As for your comment about "having low post counts"--Dude. I just got here. I signed up mid-week, I work my freaking ass off all damn day, I commute 1.5 hours one way, and what little free time I have at home in the evenings is given to priorities other than posting to message boards.

I'm not the person you have assumed me to be based on my handle. Sheesh. Chill.

[1a2b3c]

38. Made Iverglas look like an asshole

Without much effort.

[DoNotRefill]

41. Ummm....

Nah, I'm not gonna say it... :evilgrin:

[pandatimothy]

10. Deans suppport of the assault weapons ban is what really troubles the NRA

and it should!

There is no way in good reason for Dean or anyone else to support the assault weapons ban.

It sucks and doesn't work!!

[pandatimothy]

11. That being said Bush sypports the AWB too and...

ya gotta select the better of the two- GO DEAN!

[-..__...]

13. Well...

The bug-eyed loons at Brady/VPC/MMM are apoplectic over the thought of Dean; so that alone
makes him appealing. Deans current position might not be suitable to the NRA or be a deciding factor in the event
of a Dean/Bush showdown. However, Deans less extreme views on gun control will be a factor
among Dems who support RKBA issues. With that in mind, I have absolutly no intention of voting
for the likes of Kerry, Kucinich or Gephardt.

[iverglas]

15. point of clarification

"With that in mind, I have absolutly no intention of voting for the likes of Kerry, Kucinich or Gephardt."

That would be in a primary, or in an election if one of them won the nomination?

If the latter -- who you gonna vote for? The Greens?

If not the Greens ... staying home?

.

[MrBenchley]

17. Don't you know?

No issue is more important than fantasies about "protecting our precious guns."

[-..__...]

20. You mean a "one issue voter"?

Like in some of the other forums here. How many Dean/Clark/Kerry/Kuchinich/Sharpton...etc bashing
threads have you read from people refusing to vote for one candidate or another because they voted for this
or voted for that? Or that they support one issue or are against another? Same difference, just different priorities.
At least for Dem gun owners, some of the elected reps are listening.

[MrBenchley]

26. No, I meant a "gun rights" extremist

You know, the kind of person who hearrs "close the gun show loophole" and thinks "Waaah! They're going to take away my guns!"

The kind of person who tries to pretend that Ted Nugent and Larry Pratt aren't racist...or that there's something normal about folks wandering around carrying guns and wearing Nazi uniforms...

[-..__...]

28. You should see me...

doing close order drills with my "homeland defense rifle" while goose stepping around the house in my Doc Martins
to "Double Live Gonzo".

[MrBenchley]

29. Whatever floats your boat...

Hell, I was just eating a pretzel...

[-..__...]

18. NOTA

And I'm registered as an Independant. It gives me much more latitude.

[iverglas]

23. clarification?

I don't know what that means.

NOTA

"NOTA"? Does that mean something other than "read this"?

And I'm registered as an Independant. It gives me much more latitude.

I don't know what latitude being registered as an Independent gives you, but that really wasn't my question. I wondered whom you would vote for, for president, if one of the Democrats you object to won the nomination.

.

[-..__...]

27. NOTA

""NOTA"? Does that mean something other than "read this"?"

None Of The Above


"I don't know what latitude being registered as an Independent gives you, but that really wasn't my question".

Think 'open primaries'. Even though I've traditionally voted Dem (75%-80%) of the time, I've also voted
Repub, Libertarian, other 3rd party candidates and write-ins. I refuse to commit myself to one party or one idealogy.
Personally, I think it restricts ones options. I don't believe in party loyalty or commitment any more than I believe in "my country, right or wrong".

"wondered whom you would vote for, for president, if one of the Democrats you object to won the nomination".

NOTA

[iverglas]

47. and here I thought

that something might actually have made sense, and I just wasn't getting it.


"wondered whom you would vote for, for president, if one of the Democrats you object to won the nomination".

N<one>O<f>T<he>A<bove>

Perhaps you are still not understanding the question. It wasn't really a multiple-choice question -- "the Greens" and "staying home" were facetious, and were merely examples, not an exhaustive listing of the possibilities, as I'm sure we all understood. It was an open-ended question. And it still hasn't been answered.

You had said:

With that in mind, I have absolutly no intention of voting for the likes of Kerry, Kucinich or Gephardt.

I now gather that you were talking about voting in a primary.

And I'm still wondering whom you will vote for in an election, if one of the objectionable Democrats wins the nomination.

My question in response to that initial statement of yours went like this:

That would be in a primary, or in an election if one of them won the nomination?
If the latter -- who you gonna vote for? The Greens?
If not the Greens ... staying home?

"None of the above" may mean "not the Greens, and not staying home". (Damned if I know.) What it doesn't do is answer the question: who you gonna vote for?

.

[CO Liberal]

24. No One Has Ever Accused the NRA Leadership of Logical Thought

Not while it includes such "fine" Americans as Wayne "Jack-Booted Thug" LaPierre and Ted "Crap-In-His-Pants" Nugent.

[jody]

33. CO, the most evil thug in the world might support a "worthy cause". Does

that support automatically transform the "worthy cause" into an "unworthy cause"? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

39. Yeah, but the odds are slim he's gonna do anything but more EVIL

I love how we're supposed to believe that ugly asswipes like Tom DeLay, Ted Nugent and Tim McVeigh have one issue they're magically on the side of the angels about.

[CO Liberal]

46. Oh, The NRA Was Transformed Into an Unworthy Cause YEARS Ago

Around the time they became a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Republican Party.

[jody]

51. Does that mean you oppose every cause the NRA supports? eom

[MrBenchley]

52. Gee, jody

Apart from pimping for the Republicans, hyping gun industry profits, and inflaming the sort of idiot who pines for the days of lynching bees, what causes does the NRA support?

[w4rma]

34. The president of the NRA is a former Republican Party state chairman.

Heston steps down from gun lobby

Hollywood legend Charlton Heston has made his last public appearance as the president of the US gun lobby, the National Rifle Association (NRA).
…
Heston will be succeeded by Kayne Robinson, a former chairman of Iowa's Republican Party.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/showbiz/2974993.stm

Of course the NRA isn't going to back a Democrat. The NRA leadership are partisan Republicans who will likely misuse their power.

But the NRA has many Democrats as members and there are many Democrats who have guns and/or whose positions are guns are not the same extremist positions that the NRA leadership holds.

[jody]

35. Why did Charlton Heston endorse a Democratic candidate for governor

in 2002 and the NRA give that same Democratic candidate an "A+" rating and at the same time the NRA gave the Republican candidate for governor an "A" rating? That is contrary to your assertion "the NRA isn't going to back a Democrat."

Without endorsing the NRA, the facts show that the NRA will support a candidate from any party if that candidate is pro-RKBA. I have studied NRA ratings of candidates published in the November issue of their magazines just before national elections. I found that the NRA is consistent in supporting candidates that are pro-RKBA, regardless of party. I'm sure that anyone can find an exception to my observation, but an exception does not make a rule.

Hatred of the NRA can cause one to ignore the position of the "working masses" which is to protect their inalienable right to defend self and property and firearms are the best arms for that job.

The best way to neturalize the effect of the Republican Party on the NRA is for Democratic candidates to support RKBA.

[MrBenchley]

40. You mean Siegelman in Alabama? What a laugh!!

Most observers at the time thought it was because the ignorant old fool didn't have any clue who was who any more.

"The chairman of the Alabama Republican Party said today that incumbent Democratic Gov. Don Siegelman acted underhandedly in obtaining a personal endorsement from actor and gun rights activist Charlton Heston.
Heston, who announced recently that he is in the early stages of Alzheimer's, was in the state Friday to campaign for GOP gubernatorial nominee U.S. Rep. Bob Riley, R-Ashland, Attorney General Bill Pryor, 3rd Congressional District nominee Mike Rogers and U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Mobile.
Connors estimated the Alabama GOP spent more than $25,000 on Heston's visit including security and two airplanes to fly the entourage across the state. "

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/020923/class.shtml