GUNS IN THE NEWS- - October 23, 2003

[Withergyld]

My turn to start this little game today :P
As CO Liberal says:
Please try to adhere to the following guidelines:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted to the 'Net within the past 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories are welcome in this thread, as well as gun-related editorials.
3 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
4 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
5 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.

[Withergyld]

1. Report: Detroit Chief Not Authorized To Carry Gun

The questions surrounding Detroit Police Chief Jerry Oliver are growing deeper after details are released that he may not have been authorized to carry the gun found in his luggage at Metro Airport Saturday, Local 4 reported.
<snip>
Oliver is apparently not a certified police officer in the state of Michigan, according to the station's reports.
<snip>
Without certification, under state law, Oliver would need a permit to carry a weapon. A spokesman for the Wayne County Gun Board told Local 4 that Oliver has never applied for a permit to carry a gun.

Oliver reportedly said he carries a small, .22-caliber automatic every day. Local 4 learned that's an apparent violation of departmental regulations, which state that officers are supposed to carry at least a .38-caliber or larger caliber weapon.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031023/lo_wdiv/1843005

Do you think he will get any time for beaking the law??
:shrug:

[demsrule4life]

3. Woodruff Shooting Leaves One Dead

The Spartanburg County coroner's office told WYFF News 4 that Chad Shelton, 22, was shot in a home Sharpe Street after he and another man allegedly forced their way in.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031021/lo_wyff/1839479

[Spoonman]

13. Ruled by DA as SELF-DEFENSE!!!

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1493846&nav=0RaPIgkj

[iverglas]

21. hmm

Woodruff police and prosecutor Trey Gowdy say they agree the death of 22-year-old Chadwick Avandoor Shelton on Monday was self defense. Police say 26-year-old Tyrone Davis Alexander of Woodruff and Shelton were acquaintances.

Whaddaya figure are the chances that both of the individuals involved had criminal records / were involved in criminal activities? "Acquaintances". Men aged 22 and 26, running around (and threatening people) with guns. Hmm. Accountants, perhaps?

... Alexander told officers that he was inside Natasha Dianna Pena's home when Shelton and another masked man came through the front door and pulled guns. Alexander told officers the men pushed him into a bedroom and threatened to shoot him. Alexander says he reached for a gun and shot Shelton, who crawled outside.

I mean ... do you suppose that Shelton and Alexander had recently had a disagreement over, um, the proper way to fold a serviette? (Oh, all right; a "napkin".) What do we imagine might have prompted Shelton's homicidal indignation -- or was this a random home invasion by a bad guy, that just happened to occur in a home where a good guy with whom the invader was acquainted was visiting? and what might have been the reason why Alexander, or his householder friend, had such a firearm so conveniently located for his use? (And do we actually believe all that shit anyway?)


I dunno. On the one hand, we can't count firearms deaths and injuries that involve bad-guy victims when it comes to looking at the harm done with firearms ... and then we count the death of one of those bad guys as an example of the good stuff done with firearms. I'm not seeing much reason here.


Oh, and prosecutors don't "rule". They make decisions, using their prosecutorial discretion (properly), as to whether or not to prosecute. If they are of the opinion that an assault/homicide was committed in self-defence, they should likely not prosecute. The should also likely not prosecute if they are completely convinced of the potential accused's guilt, but are very unlikely to be able to prove it to the standard required for conviction (but, of course, might get into a spot of bother if they said such things to the public to whom they are asked to account for their exercises of that discretion when they don't charge). A decision not to prosecute really is not a "ruling" about anything.

.

[MrBenchley]

22. Toast to the Post!

Interestingly, on the very same page as this gripping tale of "self defense" is this:

"Oct. 22, 2003 - There have been three separate incidents involving guns in Midlands schools.
Police say a freshman at Dreher High School came to school Wednesday with a gun.
At AC Flora High School, two students were taken in for having a gun at school Monday.
When investigators found the gun, they say it was loaded.
Richland County investigators arrested a 16-year-old female student at Ridgeview High School last Friday.The girl is accused of bringing an unloaded handgun to school."

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1492656

[Romulus]

24. ummm

the only one who was "threatening" someone with a gun was the guy who is now pushing up daisies.

Lots of people are "running around" with CCW permits in the U.S., and they aren't "threatening" anyone by the mere virtue of their being armed. Such a label would have to include police officers in the "running aroung armed threatening people" group. Even more people have loaded firearms in their homes for exactly the situation (as it appears) as described in the article.

The one guy in the article seemed to be minding his own business when the other guy kicked in the door and came after him and his "companion." Maybe it was a drug deal. Maybe it was some sort of love-triangle thing. Maybe it was a robbery. Your guess is as good as mine. :shrug:

"Acquaintances" could mean anything: some guy you talked to once while you were both waiting for the bus near your house, people who know each other but can't stand each other, rival gang members, neighbors who say Hi once in a while, some asshole from the neighborhood, etc.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=acquaintances
the persons with whom one is acquainted: a person whom one knows but who is not a particularly close friend


"I dunno. On the one hand, we can't count firearms deaths and injuries that involve bad-guy victims when it comes to looking at the harm done with firearms ... and then we count the death of one of those bad guys as an example of the good stuff done with firearms. I'm not seeing much reason here."

Yell, yeah, you should count that as the "good stuff." The alternative would be to say that any violent criminal gunned down by the police should be considered a "victim of gun violence." Every self-defense shooting has a net beneficial effect on society. If it was self defense, it means that some innocent person about to be maimed or killed was able to prevent that from happening. That type of harm was prevented. That's why it's "good stuff."

[demsrule4life]

27. Antis have whined when no self defense posts are made

antis whine when there is. What is a pro gunner supposed to do? Keep posting of course! Maybe I should go down the entries that Mr B puts up and give my opinion that it is one criminal killing another. As we all know gun laws do not affect people in the drug trade.

[MrBenchley]

29. The only whining has been from the RKBA crowd

You guys whined when there were multiple posts, and you whined when there was only one. You guys posted "guns not in the news" and sniveled about how your guns were being maligned.

And now you got a self-defense story, and gee, it smells to high heaven. And here you are whining about somebody pointinng THAT out.

"Maybe I should go down the entries that Mr B puts up and give my opinion that it is one criminal killing another."
Why not? It's clear the RKBA crowd doesn't give a rat's ass about human life anyway.

[MrBenchley]

2. 2 Killed In Shootings At Daytona Beach College

"A 29-year-old woman was shot and killed at Daytona Beach Community College Wednesday night in an apparent murder-suicide, according to Local 6 News.
Police said Marcos Torres, 37, of Daytona Beach approached the woman in a parking lot at the college just before 9 p.m. and shot her in the head.
The man then reportedly turned the gun on himself.
Witnesses said she saw him and attempted to get away before being shot. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031023/lo_wkmg/1843313

http://www.vpc.org/studies/amercont.htm

[demsrule4life]

4. Alakanuk man shot by grocer

A grocery store manager shot and killed a suspected burglar Sunday in Alakanuk, a small village 15 miles inland from the coast of the Bering Sea, Alaska State Troopers said.

http://www.adn.com/alaska/story/4221138p-4233119c.html

[iverglas]

23. and some details

Troopers said Jorgensen manager Larry Koslosky, who lives about 40 yards away from the store, noticed early Sunday morning that all the security lights around his business were off. He grabbed a handgun and went to see what was going on, troopers said.

Hmm. He was safe, he put himself into a potentially dangerous situation.

... Inside the store, Koslosky confronted Kilbuck and shot him, troopers said.

Details about what happened during the confrontation, including whether Kilbuck was armed, were not released. ...

And ... if he wasn't armed?

Koslosky said he has lived in Alakanuk for about 2 ½ years and he was acquainted with the young man he shot. Kilbuck had done some labor for him about a month ago, he said.

Aha. Victim acquainted with killer. Must be one of those killings where both parties were actually just criminals anyhow, if I understand the reasoning process by which we explain stuff away.

Alakanuk Mayor Frank Alstrom Jr. said community members planned to meet Tuesday night to discuss the shooting.

"We're going to try to find out what the truth was," he said. "We don't really know what happened."

Me, I'd be refraining from gloating until we actually know whether an unarmed 18-year-old was shot in cold blood. I'd point out that the youth in question was Native American (the name makes that obvious; doubters can feel free to ask Google for kilbuck alaska) and that aboriginal youth in small towns in the north of the US and Canada don't tend to have much opportunity for anything other than "casual labour", and are usually victims of the suppression and erosion of their culture, and the alcohol abuse and family breakdown and social disorganization that comes from that, leaving a lot of them pretty much adrift and without hope. And generally not too much of a bloody threat to the life and limb of anyone who encounters them in the dark.

The reaction of the community -- population 650 -- doesn't make it sound as if this sort of thing is very common. That is, I suspect, most residents wouldn't expect a burglary to be a life-threatening event, nor would they be likely to shoot first, at someone they have excellent odds of being acquainted with (like, do they get many burglaries committed by gang members from NYC on package tours?), and ask questions later.

We oughta keep an eye on this one, d'ya think?

.

(spelling typo corrected)

[Romulus]

26. yes

We oughta keep an eye on this one, d'ya think?

[MrBenchley]

5. Two Bodies Found In Ohio Home

"The bodies of a man and woman were found Wednesday morning inside a Reynoldsburg-area home, the victims of an apparent murder-suicide, WCMH reported.
Police said Christopher Stepanek , 45, allegedly shot his wife, Laura, 43, and then shot himself. Their bodies were found in their home on Elmbrook Court, Roberts reported. The bodies reportedly had been in the home for a couple of days.
The victims died from gunshot wounds."


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=387&ncid=387&e=3&u=/ibsys/20031023/lo_wews/1843497

http://www.vpc.org/studies/amercont.htm

[MrBenchley]

6. Eccentric Heir Opens Texas Murder Defense

Ah, those law-abiding responsible gun owners….

"GALVESTON, Texas - Eccentric New York real estate heir Robert Durst took the stand as the first defense witness at his murder trial, telling jurors why he tried to live as a woman and describing the aggressiveness he saw in the neighbor he is accused of killing.
But Durst said he got accustomed to his neighbor's ways and they often watched television together and drank Jack Daniels whiskey. They had first met a year earlier when Durst was disguised as a mute woman, but Durst said they didn't spend time together until after he dropped the masquerade.
Durst, 60, a son of New York skyscraper tycoon Seymour Durst, was arrested in October 2001, accused of intentionally shooting Black the month before and attempting to hide the crime by cutting up the body and throwing the parts into Galveston Bay.
Durst was also the main figure in a Los Angeles police probe into the Christmas Eve 2000 shooting death of a friend, writer Susan Berman, who was found dead just before she was to be questioned about Kathleen Durst's disappearance."

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/breaking_news/7084248.htm

[MrBenchley]

7. Woman pleads guilty in ex-spouse's death

Another family made safer by guns…

" "My son died alone on a street ...with two bullets in him, drowning in his own blood," Pat Mize said in court, choking back tears. "He died not with a kiss on his lips, not with a sweet goodbye, not a prayer said beside him, and surely not with his loving sons beside him."
On Wednesday, Chrysta Mize, 29, pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 10 years in prison for plotting with her parents to kill Thadd Mize and trying to collect money on a $150,000 forged insurance policy.
Jimmy and Brenda Williams, parents of Chrysta Mize, earlier were convicted of first-degree murder and armed criminal action and are serving life sentences without parole. Prosecutors said Jimmy and Brenda Williams shot Thadd Mize on Dec. 12, 2001, as they followed his car in a minivan."

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/7079280.htm

[MrBenchley]

8. Man gets 15 years in drug-house death

"NORFOLK -- A man will serve 15 years for second-degree murder, attempted robbery and using a gun during a drug-house shooting in October 2002, a judge ruled Tuesday.
Patrick J. McDaniel, 20, was one of three people convicted of killing 24-year-old Emeer Banks in an apartment on W. 26th St. Another man, Troy L. Williams, was shot in the leg."

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=61328&ran=18099

[MrBenchley]

9. Police Investigate Deadly Triple Shooting

"PITTSBURGH -- Homicide detectives are trying to determine the motive behind that shooting Tuesday night at 128 Hazlett St. in Northview Heights.
Police are talking with friends and neighbors to try and determine the reason behind the shooting that killed Lori Hazlip, 31, of Northview Heights, and Glenn Hale, 29, of Beltzhover.
Hazlip was shot in the back; Halewas shot in the abdomen. The coroner ruled the manners of death as homicide."

http://www.wpxi.com/news/2572224/detail.html

[MrBenchley]

10. Video shows Columbine gunmen at target practice

"GOLDEN, Colo. | A videotape of the Columbine High School gunmen laughing and shooting at trees and bowling pins six weeks before they killed 12 classmates and a teacher was released to the public Wednesday.
The homemade tape was released at the urging of the Jefferson County sheriff's office and a task force established by the attorney general's office, both of which want to make evidence in the case public.
Sheriff's investigators and the district attorney's office said they learned of the video two weeks after the shootings from Mark Manes, one of the people on the tape.
In addition to Manes and the gunmen, the tape shows Philip Duran and Manes' girlfriend, Jessica Miklich. Duran recorded most of the footage, authorities said.
Duran and Manes, in their 20s at the time of the shootings, were charged with providing the teens with guns. Duran was sentenced to 41/2 years in prison; Manes was sentenced to six years in prison."

http://www.mcall.com/news/yahoo/all-a1_columbineoct23.story

[MrBenchley]

11. Suspect In Oklahoma Killings Sought In N.M.

"New Mexico State Police said Scott Eizember, 42, allegedly shot three people over the weekend in the northeast Oklahoma town of Depew. Two of the victims died. Since then, authorities have extended the manhunt for Eizember into New Mexico. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=375&ncid=375&e=2&u=/ibsys/20031023/lo_koat/1843122

[MrBenchley]

12. 1 Week, 1 Street, 3 Shootings, Many Angry Residents

"For the third time in less than a week, police were called to President Drive in Northwest Fairmont to investigate a shooting.
The most recent shooting in the Fay Apartments happened at about 8:30 p.m. Wednesday, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported.
The victim, whose name was not released, told police she was standing in her kitchen when bullets came through the window.
The woman should be able (to) recover from her injuries, police said.
It wasn't the first time this week officers were called to President Drive because of gunfire. On Monday, a man was shot and almost killed near the scene of Wednesday's shooting. Late last week, another man was injured when he was shot in the abdomen, WLWT reported."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031023/lo_wlwt/1843673

[MrBenchley]

14. Police Looking For Man Who Shot Into Occupied Car

Police are searching for a man accused of firing shots at a car with his girlfriend and three children inside.
Investigators believe Jamalle Warren leaned out of a car window and shot twice at another car outside the Murray Hill Theater in broad daylight last week. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031023/lo_wjxt/1843618

[MrBenchley]

15. Gunman fails escape via tricycle, hijacked car

"SALEM, Ore. (AP) -- A gunman who allegedly tried to hijack a car was apparently no better at driving it than he was at maneuvering his original vehicle: a tricycle.
Police were called after receiving reports that a man on a tricycle had been firing gunshots and had slammed into a car, Cary said.
"Mr. Rodriguez gets out of his car and starts asking people to call 911. Valenciano then gets out, mounts his trike -- and promptly falls over."
Valenciano was treated at Salem Hospital for a leg injury and a gunshot wound to his left foot."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/23/gunman_fails_escape_via_tricycle_hijacked_car/

[demsrule4life]

17. I saw this one before you posted it

Really needs to be filed under the dumb crook awards. :)

[MrBenchley]

16. Police: Rookie Officers Survive Attempted Shooting

"Kansas City police said a 22-year-old man pointed a gun at an officer and repeatedly pulled the trigger, but the gun didn't fire. Brandon Kinney now faces charges for the alleged incident.
Two officers, Rebecca Caster and Matthew Young, stopped Kinney's vehicle Tuesday at about 11:37 p.m. near 77th Terrace and Troost Avenue. When Caster approached the vehicle, Kinney pointed a gun at her and pulled the trigger three or four times, officers allege.
"When he finally did show me his hands, there was a black gun pointed straight at my chest, about 2 feet away from my chest. I'll never forget it. I can still see his finger trying to pull that trigger," Caster said."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031023/lo_kmbc/1842991

[MrBenchley]

18. Police chiefs: Retain assault-weapons ban

"Recalling officers in their commands killed or wounded in the line of duty, a group of police chiefs from across the nation called on Congress yesterday to renew the federal law outlawing military-style assault weapons.
"The idea that 10 years later that we're even debating ... is insanity," said William Bratton, now police chief in Los Angeles and former police commissioner in New York.
Bratton was one of five big-city chiefs, including Philadelphia Police Commissioner Sylvester M. Johnson, who addressed reporters on the subject at a Center City hotel near the Convention Center, where 15,000 law-enforcement officials from around the world are gathering for the 110th annual conference of the International Association of Chiefs of Police.
The chiefs, who also included Harold Hurtt of Phoenix, Richard Pennington of Atlanta, and Alex Fagan of San Francisco, spoke in front of a table laden with examples of assault weapons, including "street sweepers," 12-gauge shotguns with large-drum clips that can spray 12 shots as fast as the trigger can be pulled.
"The idea that anybody in this country that would advocate allowing these types of weapons onto the streets of America is insanity," Bratton said. As recently as Saturday night, he said, two of his officers on a prowler call were assaulted by a weapon "very similar to what you see in front of you." "

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/cities_neighborhoods/philadelphia/7079405.htm

[MrBenchley]

19. City Man Travels From JFK With Gun

"An American traveling to Romania from New York was detained Thursday after airport authorities discovered an unloaded pistol hidden in an electric typewriter in his check-in luggage, authorities said.
Romanian-born Nicholas Slaina, a 68-year-old retiree from New York, flew to Timisoara from John F. Kennedy International Airport late Wednesday on the Romanian national air carrier Tarom, said Ioan Blaga, deputy chief for border police.
Romanian airport authorities alerted customs officials of suspicious objects in Slaina's luggage which had been checked in at JFK. Customs officers discovered a .38-caliber pistol wrapped in aluminum foil hidden in a typewriter, and 55 bullets wrapped in aluminum foil hidden in a blanket, Blaga said."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/trib/20031023/lo_newsday/citymantravelsfromjfkwithgun

[MrBenchley]

20. Fugitive injured in shootout with police

"A vehicle chase through a residential neighborhood ended Wednesday afternoon in a shootout between a man and several Aurora police officers.
Police shot the male suspect near 16th Avenue and Laredo Street about 4:05 p.m. after he fled from the black Cadillac Escalade he was driving and fired at officers.
The man was transported to a local hospital."

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10395470&BRD=1947&PAG=461&dept_id=168657&rfi=6

[demsrule4life]

25. Cops seek shooter who saved girl, 16

A man was beating a 16-year-old girl with a pipe Wednesday morning on Detroit's west side.

Suddenly, the man was dead, shot several times by a passenger in a passing car.

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm16850_20031022.htm

[iverglas]

30. from the story

The dead man was identified as Johnny Donaldson Jr., 22, of Detroit. Police said he was swinging a metal pipe at several women and girls at Northlawn and Plymouth at 7:45 a.m.

That's when the motorist, with the passenger next to him, rolled by in a silver Pontiac. The driver stopped, and the passenger opened fire from inside the car. Then, police said, the car might have driven over the man.

Police were investigating Donaldson on Wednesday evening and had no motive for the pipe attack. It was not known if he knew his victims.

Individual "swinging a metal pipe" with no known motive, possibly no relationship between victims and assailant.

And what do *I* suspect when I hear this? (I merely suspect; I form no opinion until I have sufficient facts.)

Mental illness.

People with mental illnesses that result in paranoid delusions often carry rudimentary weapons, which they consider to be necessary for their own self-defence, and use them without warning or reason against strangers (or acquaintances or family members).

Such people will generally be found not to be criminally responsible for their acts, if they did not appreciate the nature of the acts they committed and did not intend to cause the harm caused. (Think: they thought the strangers they were beating with a metal pipe were angels of death ... or federal agents trying to confine them in a cage in Guantanamo Bay ... when they were really schoolchildren.) They would not have had the mens rea, the guilty mind required in order for an act to be a crime. That is, they would be "not guilty" of the acts.

When people are not guilty, they may not be punished. They may be deprived of their liberty to the extent necessary for the safety of themselves and/or society, but they may not be punished.

Now, if a person happens on a delusional person swinging metal pipes at schoolchildren (or if a delusional person is swinging a metal pipe at the person in question personally), that person may use reasonable force to prevent harm from occurring to the victim. Even though the delusional person would not be found guilty of committing the assault, an assault is still being committed, and the use of force in self-defence etc. is therefore permissible.

But that force, of course, would have to be reasonable. Killing the assailant is permissible only where there is no reasonable alternative, blah blah.

So if this guy turns out to have been a crazy engaged in an act of craziness, and two guys drove by in a car and one of them shot him dead, when in all likelihood they and the others present would have been able to overpower or disable him in some other way, what might we have?

Why, an extra-judicial execution. The death penalty meted out to someone who could not even have been sentenced to community service if he'd been tried for the crime and found not criminally responsible because of his mental illness.

Given the facts, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

Of course, the guy could also have been the violent but completely sane estranged husband of one of the women, carrying out his threat to kill her and her kids and anybody associated with her, in violation of a restraining order.

Or hell, for all we know, the women and children had swarmed the man with the pipe, and he was in fact defending himself. Who knows? We don't. Did the drive-by shooter?

Strangers passing by in cars are not under an obligation to intervene in such scenes if doing so would endanger their own safety. But they also don't have a right to carry out executions without trial from a safe distance.

Me, I'd regard someone who *did* place him/herself in danger in order to save someone else, and who didn't just use the apparent assailant for target practice (and run over him for good measure), as an actual hero.

.

[demsrule4life]

31. Street justice

All your fancy writing aside it still comes down the girl is alive. Just wondering during the time you were being assaulted and someone walked up and shot the asshole would you of complained about it?

[iverglas]

32. was that a rhetorical question?

"Just wondering during the time you were being assaulted and someone walked up and shot the asshole would you of <sic> complained about it?"


Uh ... yeah. And would have expected him/her to be charged, and would have testified at the trial. Assuming we're talking "shot dead", here, at least.

Now, if the asshole in question had been holding a revolver to my head and my rescuer had seen him begin to squeeze the trigger, I'd probably have been a little less concerned. Of course, given who and where the asshole was (a genuine loser, in Canada), there wasn't really much chance he'd have had a revolver. He didn't.

Or if the asshole had not been presenting such a direct threat to my life (which was pretty much the case at the time, and is pretty much the case for someone swinging a pipe at a group of people), and my rescuer had shot him in the knee, or beaned him on the head with a rock, or jumped him and started throttling him, I'd have been cool with that too. In point of fact, I'm very sure that if my would-be rescuer had simply shouted at him, it would have sufficed.

I figure shouting should actually be the first recourse, in many situations. I'd certainly have given shouting a shot in the pipe-swinging man scenario, myself. I kinda see shooting someone dead as the *last* recourse, and oddly enough, so does the law.

(Perhaps we could ask Google for some data about how many times shouting has stopped the commission of a crime. I'll start, if you like. It worked for my grandfather back in about 1950 when someone broke into the family's rented summer cottage at night. Apparently two guys, and they ran off, just like that. And to think, if my grandfather had had a firearm, he might have been able to kill at least one of them. Damn, eh?)

I really just wouldn't have been too impressed with someone shooting the asshole and then running over him, in my own case. That wouldn't have looked much like rescuing me, to me. It would have looked like anti-social violence, having little if anything to do with "justice".

.

[MrBenchley]

33. Another name for "street justice"

used to be "lynch mob."

[demsrule4life]

35. Y ou don't have a clue

but that isnt your fault since I doubt you have been in any deadly force situations. In every shooting there are two types of people, the person that is under the worse stress there is having to make a decision in a split second to shoot or not, and those people like you that can discuss for hours with no stress or threat to your life the merits of the shooting. You have much more education than I have, but you havent been where I have been and there is nothing you can teach me about the use of deadly force. You like doing research, why don't you pm me your email and I will send you a list of present and retired police officers and their phone numbers. Call them and ask them about my life, ask them "would you want to be in a shootout with the sheriff" I will also send you the names of two professors from the University of Ill to sastify your academic side that know me.

[juancarlos]

37. Shouting at attackers.

Iverglas writes:

"Now, if the asshole in question had been holding a revolver to my head and my rescuer had seen him begin to squeeze the trigger, I'd probably have been a little less concerned."

So, it isn't enough that the criminal has a gun to somebody's head? You have to wait until the criminal starts pulling the trigger before you shoot him? ROTFLMAO!


Iverglas writes:

"Or if the asshole had not been presenting such a direct threat to my life (which was pretty much the case at the time, and is pretty much the case for someone swinging a pipe at a group of people), and my rescuer had shot him in the knee, or beaned him on the head with a rock, or jumped him and started throttling him, I'd have been cool with that too. In point of fact, I'm very sure that if my would-be rescuer had simply shouted at him, it would have sufficed."


Anybody confronted with a man swinging a length of pipe at him would call it lethal force. So, now you say that when somebody is using lethal force, you are supposed to shoot him in the knee? Or throw a rock at him? I'd like to see you try that. You obviously have no working knowledge of gun use. YOU SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT, by SHOOTING AT THE CENTER OF MASS! I would love to see you try to hit so small a target as the knee, while it is moving! Before making such outlandish statements, you really should familiarize yourself with defensive shooting scenarios. Not even the best trained agent in the FBI would attempt something like shooting in the knee! It is too easy to miss, and allow the attacker to continue his use of LETHAL FORCE.


Iverglas writes:

"I figure shouting should actually be the first recourse, in many situations. I'd certainly have given shouting a shot in the pipe-swinging man scenario, myself. I kinda see shooting someone dead as the *last* recourse, and oddly enough, so does the law."

Are you going to advise your police department that if they see somebody trying to bash your brains in with a LEAD PIPE that they should shout at the guy? Or would you prefer that they END THE THREAT to your life immediately? "HEY! DON'T SMASH THAT GUY'S HEAD!" "I've got a great set of lungs, don't make me use them."

Iverglas writes:

"It worked for my grandfather back in about 1950 when someone broke into the family's rented summer cottage at night. Apparently two guys, and they ran off, just like that. And to think, if my grandfather had had a firearm, he might have been able to kill at least one of them. Damn, eh?"

Well, Iverglas, it is a good thing that they were not there on a mission of murder. If they had, your grandfather would be dead. They were there for burglary, if they had been there to use LETHAL FORCE, I doubt that your grandfather's lungs would have dissuaded them. Most times, a good shout or attention getting device will work, but at the times that an attacker is using lethal force, you have to respond in kind.

[RoeBear]

38. What I would want you to do is...

...shoot the bullet as it leaves the gun. Because how do you know if the guy was pulling the trigger on an empty gun, huh?

[demsrule4life]

39. Since this hasen't been locked yet

I remember you saying the other day that you love research. I have a suggestion for some practical research. Get over your hangups for awhile and take a pistol class. After you feel confident about shooting see if you can set this up. Get an apple (knee) fix it to a stick and place it in the ground about 18 inches high and at least twenty feet away from the shooting position. Go run a 1/4 mile as fast as you can (to simulate stress) and when you return to the shooting stand you have two seconds to pickup the pistol and shoot at the apple (knee). If you miss don't feel to bad because about 98% of shooters or cops could'nt make that shot either. Your suggestion about shooting him in the knee is well, just plain dumb the only thing that would be accomplished is missing the knee and sending bullets flying around in a urban enviroment. Not a good thing unless you like being sued for wrongful death. You always shoot for the torso, or central mass.
Now for the holding a gun to your head thing. Lets say some guy goes nuts reading your long posts, grabs you, sticks a pistol to your head and starts screaming that he is going to kill you. Now welcome to my world. I show up and try to position myself so if need be I can make a mouth shot. I will make the decision if I have to shoot or not, the bad guy will not make the decision for me. (it takes about 1/10 of a second to pull a trigger, if I wait for him to "start to pull the trigger" you will be dead. Remember action beats reaction everytime). If I think mr badguy is serious about shooting you I will take the shot. Now is the time for you to pray that I have the skill to make a mouth shot, if I hit him anywhere else you are dead. And why a mouth shot? it is the only shot that will take out the upper spinal cord, so if his brain says shoot the message wont reach his trigger finger. I'am not really trying to be a smartass but trying to make my point. There is no question that you have tons of book learning, but that doesnt make you any better than someone like me that has much more practical experiance then you do. I won't try to compete with you in a debate on here because I know I would endup sounding foolish, but you don't have the experiance or skill to lecture me about anything to do with tactical situations.

[juancarlos]

36. If this happened more.

You could be sure that similar crimes would drop dramatically. It is an excellent thing those guys did. Thank God that girl is still alive.

[demsrule4life]

28. Funeral for murdered girl and father

Detectives believe Bertram, a convicted drug dealer, may have been the target of a professional assassin who then shot the youngster as she tried to escape after witnessing the murder.

Gun bans aren't supposed to hinder those in the drug trade from having guns, guess kids of those in the drug trade wouldn't agree to that.

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3209481.stm

[JayS]

34. Woman foils home invasion (Houston, TX)

Oct. 24, 2003, 6:28AM
Woman foils home invasion
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2176193



A woman shot at two intruders who tried to invade her home in the Heritage Park area just outside Friendswood, Harris County sheriff's officials said.

The woman, who was home alone in the 2400 block of Leading Edge Drive, said a man knocked on her door around 11 p.m. Wednesday and asked for Lisa. When she told him he had the wrong house, he left.

The woman was uneasy and got her pistol. When the man returned with a companion 10 to 15 minutes later, they began kicking at her front door. The woman said she broke out a window and shot at the pair.

They kicked in the door, but ran when the woman fired at them. They departed in a newer model blue and gray Ford Mustang but left behind a shotgun.

*SNIP*