Border crime ravaging parks in Arizona

[Withergyld]

National parks and other federal recreation sites in Arizona have some of the highest crime rates of any public lands in the country, and those in southern Arizona lead the list.
<snip>
Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge, southeast of Yuma, has more crimes per visitor than any other piece of public land in the West. The Coronado National Forest in southeastern Arizona leads all forest lands in the number of crimes committed on it. Two rangers in Arizona have been shot in the past two years. Rangers now spend more time patrolling the border than guarding resources they were hired to protect.

The rangers at Coronado National Memorial were hired to patrol the park but also to protect its resources and educate visitors. Now they spend much of their time on special operations in the park, running down drug- and human-smugglers, wondering which ones are carrying automatic rifles.
<snip>
They are all sparsely covered by law enforcement. Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge, for example, has one ranger to cover 860,000 acres of land, an area larger than Rhode Island; the Las Cienegas National Conservation Area, southeast of Tucson, doesn't even have a full-time law enforcement officer to patrol its 84,000 acres.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/1026publiclands26.html

What is being done to reduce this problem??

[madrchsod]

1. we are giving the

people of iraq democracy and the bush klan billions...

[Withergyld]

2. and losing control

of our own country :(

[juancarlos]

3. I advocate...

that the National Guard Military Police units patrol the border. It will surely help keep out the criminals crossing the border illegally.

edit to say: the patrols would not cost anything extra if they were done as the training days the Guard has.

I would prefer that we budget millions of dollars more for Agents to patrol the border. We could surely stand to hire a few thousand more.

[Superfly]

6. So...

instead of training on how to perform their combat missions, the Nasty Guard would spend their valuable training dollars and days patrolling a border? I don't think you'd find a NG commander who would willfuly give up his $$$ to do that.

[RuB]

4. excuse me...and have lost control.

Its quite evident in the western states now. In a generation it will be evident in the other states. And the politicians are allowing it based on a lie. That they are doing the jobs no American will do. Illegals do construction jobs, warehouse jobs and other reasonable paying jobs in America. Open the borders if you want it but don't lie to me. Politican's are the last to suffer for illegal immigration though because they have no problem lying...both party's.

[LibLabUK]

5. Are you sure?

"That they are doing the jobs no American will do. Illegals do construction jobs, warehouse jobs and other reasonable paying jobs in America."

I'm guessing that the reason no American will do the job is because they DON'T pay reasonably.

Also, I'm assuming you don't have to insure or ensure the workplace safety for illegal workers, which would be an incentive to hire them.

And then there's those pesky unions.

[RuB]

7. Construction and warehouse jobs in America are

reasonable paying jobs. Full time is about 8 to 12 bucks an hour. I know 6 who work in a warehouse and thats the range of pay for them. Are you from the UK? There are a whole lot of unemployed American's who would take a Construction job or warehouse job BEFORE taking a pathetic paying service job.

[LibLabUK]

9. Ummm

"reasonable paying jobs. Full time is about 8 to 12 bucks an hour."

£4.85-7.27/hour?

That's roughly £10,000-15,000 per annum (that's with 40hr weeks and no days off).

Those are not reasonable wages... I don't know how anyone who could support a family on those wages.

"Are you from the UK?"

Yes. We have problems with illegal immigration here (although not as much as you do or the Tories would like us to believe).


"There are a whole lot of unemployed American's who would take a Construction job or warehouse job BEFORE taking a pathetic paying service job."

I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that there's incentives for employing illegal immigrants (no need to pay for healthcare, or ensure safe working practices etc.).

[RuB]

10. In my neck of the woods

a warehouse company sold the business and laid everyone off. There was a large number of people (about 300) outside protesting. Come to find out a majority of those protesting were illegals. The law in this state says it is against the law to hire illegals and the fine for doing so is about 5,000 per. Not one fine was handed out. It is that way all over the state and I'm sure the country. The illegals in the company were not paid a lower wage than I or you would have recieved and the state paid for their healthcare through the local clinics and you can bet your ass if they were hurt on the job it would not have been possible to hush it up but instead probably a healthy settlement or lawsuit would have ensued. What is being said to justify hiring illegals is no longer true compared to what might have been the truth 20 years ago! Whole companies are now hispanic in California because of the hiring practices not because of trying to save a buck. Those who support illigal workers will either tell you they are hired because of the reasons you give or they'll tell you its because Mexicans work harder than white people. Its all a lie in todays world, Mexicans are hiring Mexicans. Its as simple as that. Now the debate is how much they pay in taxes as if thats a justification for allowing illegals in this country. A nation that does not protect its borders will eventually cease to be. I as much as anyone else would eventually like to see this be a world without borders but it has to be orderly and not by force which is whats happening here and I would venture a guess in Britain too.

[LibLabUK]

11. Umm?

"The illegals in the company were not paid a lower wage than I or you would have recieved and the state paid for their healthcare through the local clinics ....What is being said to justify hiring illegals is no longer true compared to what might have been the truth 20 years ago!"

So why would a company risk a fine by hiring illegal workers when they're willing to pay wages that an American would work for?



"I as much as anyone else would eventually like to see this be a world without borders but it has to be orderly and not by force which is whats happening here and I would venture a guess in Britain too."

I don't really follow you. Are the illegal immigrants seizing jobs by force?

That's not happening here.


Over here, the illegal immigrants are generally the poorest, most wretched souls who do anything to get into this country, often risking their lives to do so.

[RuB]

12. Well:

"So why would a company risk a fine by hiring illegal workers when they're willing to pay wages that an American would work for?"

The 'rule of law' means nothing anymore.

"Are the illegal immigrants seizing jobs by force?"

yes.

"Over here, the illegal immigrants are generally the poorest, most wretched souls who do anything to get into this country, often risking their lives to do so."

A minority of that here.

[beanball]

8. The greedy

bastards that hire illegals should be fined and shipped to Gitmo,if there are no jobs,they want come.Wake up America and stop blaming the wrong people.

[saluki00]

13. So $12 an hour is not a reasonable wage?

That’s interesting because I managed to live quite well on $12.50/hr for a couple of years. Granted it is a little easier for someone single and I did get a fair amount of overtime, but considering my lifestyle I think a family should be able to get by with better money management.

For my mere $12.50 I managed to afford a nice two bedroom apartment (1000sq. ft. +) in a city of over 100,000, a 46” TV, cable, a cell phone, a new computer, internet connection, etc.

It’s amazing how little money you need to pay your bills if you realize you can live without the extras. I lost a $60,000/yr job in March. Now I have to get by on my Grad School Assistantship that pays a whopping $1100/mo. I had to make several sacrifices, but I still manage to get my bills paid and have money left over. So I now make in a month what I used to make in a week and I get by, so don’t tell me it can’t be done

[RuB]

14. A whole lot of people in this country would just love to make 12. hr!

A man and his wife working it would make a pretty good income. Illegal immigration is not good for America.

[LibLabUK]

18. Umm

"A man and his wife working it would make a pretty good income."

Maybe in the US that's a reasonable salary for two people, not here.

[amazona]

15. as far as I know, nothing is being done to reduce the problem

I'm not aware that any great effort is being made to protect these refuges or to do all that much in the way of securing the border. I'm not aware that these refuges are much used legally by anyone except birders, who do not make up a very powerful constituency and who are themselves generally un-armed when pursuing their sport. When birding in a refuge in Texas, we observed some questionable individuals crossing the Rio Grande from Mexico in a small boat to make an exchange of "whatever" in a car parked on the American side. What did we do about it? We swung our binoculars in the opposite direction and pretended not to see the dudes 20 feet in front of us, that's what we did about it. What else can you do? It's a big damn border. It is much cheaper and easier to pound one's chest and talk about securing it than it would be to actually secure it.

[CarinKaryn]

16. Why bother with the "Border Crime" headline?

This thread is just an excuse to slam undocumented immigrants.
At least be honest about that.

[Superfly]

17. Be honest? You first.

They're ILLEGAL immigrants. They're here in the US ILLEGALY and they need to be deported.

[Withergyld]

19. Because that IS the title of the article

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

20. The racist head of GOA, Larry Pratt...

also uses this as one of his hobbyhorses...as do racist Repubs like Tancredo.

[Withergyld]

21. see post #19

Peddal your racist panload of hooey somewhere else.
:puke:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

25. Have YOU read the article yet?

It doesn't mention the race or even the nationality of the DRUG RUNNERS and HUMAN SMUGGLERS who commit the crimes being discussed.

[MrBenchley]

29. Who the hell are you trying to kid, slack?

"It doesn't mention the race or even the nationality"
Yeah, who's that trying to sneak across the border into Arizona....why, it must be those Norwegians.

[slackmaster]

31. Read the article again

And try not to read too much between the lines.

A lot of drug smugglers and most of the "coyotes" who prey on undocumented workers or illegal aliens or whatever you want to call them are US citizens. It does not exclude the possibility that some of them might in fact be Norwegians.

Maybe you missed this paragraph too:

"North Cascades National Park in Washington has more serious crimes per visitor than any park in the country, and the national parks and forests that butt up against the Canadian border have smuggling problems as well. High-grade marijuana and heroin come in from Canada the same way that low-grade weed and cocaine come up from Central and South America."

Do you think the article is anti-Snowbunny as well as racist? Or maybe that's the Norwegian, or to be more precise the ANTI-Norwegian connection.

:freak:

[Withergyld]

33. deleted

.

[slackmaster]

22. This isn't a gun control thread

Yet somehow you seem to always find a connection.

:eyes:

[MrBenchley]

26. Scum IS scum, slacck

So many scummy people peddling that "gun rights" horseshit are also up to other nastiness.

Are you trying to tell us Pratt and Tancredo AREN'T peddling this anti-immigrant crap too?

[slackmaster]

28. A lot of the people we call "Border bandits" here in CA are US citizens

Read the article.

[MrBenchley]

27. Scum IS scum, slacck

So many scummy people peddling that "gun rights" horseshit are also up to other nastiness.

Are you trying to tell us Pratt and Tancredo AREN'T peddling this anti-immigrant crap too?

[demsrule4life]

30. Helen where are you?

It is past time to put him to bed.

[slackmaster]

32. The article is not even slightly anti-immigrant

I suggest you read it before reacting.

[slackmaster]

23. Have you read the article yet?

It's about crime committed by drug runners and human smugglers.

It has nothing to do with "undocumented immigrants" by which I assume you mean people who have come into the country illegally seeking jobs.

Border crime is very real and it's a very big problem. Undocumented immigrants are more often the victims of border criminals than they are the perpetrators. I live in San Diego. People here get to see the effects of border crime first-hand.

[slackmaster]

34. Another thread about border crime in the LBN forum

Really tragic story.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=197110

Special note to MrBenchley and CarinKaryn:

Please note that the cited article in the New York Times (registration required) does not mention the race or nationality of the child smuggler. Similar stories happen all the time here in California, too often resulting in the deaths of immigrants in the desert heat or mountain cold. Immigrants (or undocumented workers if you insist) frequently become victims of robbers or human-smugglers who don't give a shit about their lives.

THAT'S what the article about the problems in the Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge is all about, not illegal immigration.

[CarinKaryn]

35. You are playing semantics again

If there were channels for migrants to enter the US through there would be no need for human smugglers. I think you know that.

[slackmaster]

36. Um, there ARE ways to enter the USA legally

Several different ways, in fact...

http://www.immigration.gov/graphics/index.htm

http://www.insexperts.com/?ad=goto&keyword=immigration+usa/

http://www.immigration-bureau.org/

http://www.h1base.com/

Students from aboad who have a legitimate reason to be here can get student visas quite easily. Another way is to serve in the military.

Semantics my ass. You're trying to do a Benchley and accuse me of being a racist, and your statement is a crock of shit. One could just as easily say "If heroin was legal there would be no need for drug dealers or drug smugglers".

[CarinKaryn]

37. I resent that accusation

and I want an appology. I haven't accused you of being a recist.
Say you were mistaken and you are sorry.

[Superfly]

38. No, I think he's right on the money

and doesn't owe you a damned thing.

B

[CarinKaryn]

39. I don't think your opinion on this matter is relevant

But it sounds like you are also making "racism" charges. Can to back that charge up, or will you also hit and run?

[Withergyld]

40. See post #16

Why bother with the "Border Crime" headline?
This thread is just an excuse to slam undocumented immigrants.
At least be honest about that.

I believe that the above comment was aimed at me since I started this thread. If she was implying anyone was racist, I was the target. In response I noted the title of the thread is the title of the article I linked to. I posted the thread here because I am a resident of Arizona and it highlighted a crime problem I was not aware of. Since it was a crime issue I posted it in J/PS. If it was an immigration issue I would have posted it in a diferent forum.
Then "he who must not be named" came in and started posting hooey about a few high profile gunrights advocates being racist in his usual vain attempt to paint all RKBA advocates as racists.
Technically, I think she is correct.

edited for spelling

[slackmaster]

41. Allow me to quote your previous response in this thread

"This thread is just an excuse to slam undocumented immigrants."

Any time "border" and "crime" are mentioned in the same sentence some people are bound to react with charges that whatever information being presented is done with the intent to bash people who come into the country illegally in search of otherwise honest work. But this thread is about a very real problem of VIOLENT CRIME that is a by-product of illegal immigration; the result of people I consider to be true criminals taking advantage of the economic fugitives who find themselves in such desperate situations that they do an end-run around US immigration law in order to feed their families.

I still haven't seen you acknowledge that there is nothing inherently racist in the thread. Nobody is bashing immigrants here. The bashing is being directed exactly where it belongs: At the bandidos who may be Mexicans, or Canadians, or Norwegians, or even US citizens.