AK used in a crime...

[jeepnstein]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-monterrey7-2008dec07,0,5447755.story

Be warned, the link takes you to a very disturbing bit of video.

This happened in a country with VERY strict gun laws. Regular citizens aren't allowed to own anything in a "military" caliber but that didn't seem to stop a certain criminal enterprise. The whole thing took 23 seconds. There was no way for the Police to get there and probably no way for any of the victims to do anything other than die.

The problem is with criminals.

[amdezurik]

1. the problem is with all those in circulation

either sold at gun shows or smuggled some other way.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

13. You are sadly mistaken if you think many AK-47's are sold at gun shows.

[lotus]

88. What? I got mine in a store

I have an AK variant and bought it legally from a store just like everything else. And gun shows around here are almost entirely consisting of tables set up by actual stores.... its really just a bunch of stores temporarily relocating all to one place, for easier shopping. No reason to get excited about gun shows unless someone also thinks stores should be banned.

Mainly, I wanted to see what all the fuss was about with the AK. So far, I'm not impressed. Much ado about nothing... its rather a mediocre gun, shoots terrible (mine has a canted sight problem) so I'm adding a red dot to see if I can make aiming any better. Very reliable though, but ugly as crap and not too accurate. Anyway, my main point was that I couldn't see anything in particular about this gun that made it an evil gun that's only suitable for criminals. If I were a criminal, I would want a gun that gets the job done effectively (just like legal gun-owners want). So, an AK wouldn't be it. The gun mostly deserves to be criticized for its technical characteristics rather than for a few criminals out there wanting to use it for bad things.

[Captain Hilts]

2. With a flintlock or garand he couldn't have hurt so many.

The weapon is a problem.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

14. That's why they are so heavily restricted.

[tburnsten]

74. Garands?

[villager]

3. The solution -- clearly! -- is the proliferation of more AKs!

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

12. You are the only one calling for the proliferation of more automatic weapons.

Seems silly to me, but it's a free country.

David

[villager]

15. Actually, not, Dave. The OP seems to think if there are no restrictions on them,

they won't be used in crimes.

In other words, the more available they are, it would somehow prevent crimes like the one he's gleefully linked to.

the "logic" escapes me.

Then again, why there's so much lust for a device that's clearly not made for either hunting, or target practice, but expressly for killing humans eludes me, too.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

16. Feel free to qoute the OP in regards to your "assertion".

I don't see the OP saying anything that could possibly be construed in that way.

David

[jeepnstein]

21. He can't quote me because I said no such thing.

My point is that bans don't make any difference to criminals. They don't obey the law.

Honest, law-abiding citizens aren't going about robbing, shooting, stealing, and creating mayhem. We should be left alone to exercise our Constitutional Rights in peace.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. I'm sure the little villager will fail to respond with anything of substance.

[villager]

27. Wow! Quite a stick up the ol' rear today, eh, Dave?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. Thanks for proving me right.

[villager]

26. feel free to make up your own assertions! Oh wait -- you already are!

I just request the usual pro-gun inference of "well, of course I'm right and you're wrong" be left at the door. If possible.

The OP was using a time-honored technique of positing a laissez-faire/Ayn Rand-ian like argument on gun restrictions: If one fails, even once, anywhere, then no restriction is worthwhile, or can work, or is worth pursuing.

The adjunct to this argument is that "if only the victims were similarly armed with ___________ (insert restricted weapon being argued about here), then this never would've happened!"

It's a pro-proliferation argument, masked as "concern" for victims of shootings.

Old, old techniques. Never to be retired, it seems.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. So that would be No I can't because the OP never said that.

I have never seen anyone here make the argument that everyone should have automatic weapons because some criminals do. Your old, old techniques never seem to tire either.

David

[iverglas]

34. just wanted to catch your eye

Do check out my post 33 and the article (and links in it) about firearms trafficking into Mexico from the US.

[iverglas]

4. I'm assuming you have a point.

That if the security guard had been armed ...?

He might -- it is obviously extremely unlikely, but he might -- have been able to take a shot at one of the robbers ... before being killed.

Very obviously, none of the other individuals in the store, no matter what weapons they might have been carrying, had any opportunity to use them.


That the country where the robbers' weapons were virtually certainly obtained and then smuggled into Mexico ... the United States of America ... should do something to prevent murders of people like these in other countries?

Gotcha. And I'm right with you there.

[jeepnstein]

5. Nothing could have saved the victims...

The CRIMINALS involved in the hit had the drop on everyone. No armed guard in the real world could have done anything. Murder was the plan and murder is what they committed.

The CRIMINALS had the weapons in a country that clearly forbids the ownership of such arms. It sure didn't seem to stop this particular group of CRIMINALS, did it? They chose to take a course of action that is so far outside the law that it is obvious they have no regard for what is and isn't legal. No gun law on Earth can stop CRIMINALS from doing what they please.

What makes you think the source of the AK47's was the U.S.? Do you know where to buy one? A full-auto AK is not something we often see used in crimes in the States. You, not being a citizen or resident of the United States, obviously don't know what you are talking about.

[Tejas]

6. More/easier to get F-A AK's in Canada than the USA

Doesn't take much to ship one straight from Quebec to anywhere in Mexico.

[iverglas]

10. oh, do elaborate

http://canlii.org/ca/regu/sor98-462/whole.html

2. The firearms listed in Part 1 of the schedule are prohibited firearms for the purposes of paragraph (d) of the definition “prohibited firearm” in subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code.

SCHEDULE
(Sections 2 to 6)
PART 1
PROHIBITED FIREARMS

Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 13

64. The firearm of the design commonly known as the AK-47 rifle, and any variant or modified version of it except for the Valmet Hunter, the Valmet Hunter Auto and the Valmet M78 rifles, but including the

(a) AK-74;
(b) AK Hunter;
(c) AKM;
(d) AKM-63;
(e) AKS-56S;
(f) AKS-56S-1;
(g) AKS-56S-2;
(h) AKS-74;
(i) AKS-84S-1;
(j) AMD-65;
(k) AR Model .223;
(l) Dragunov;
(m) Galil;
(n) KKMPi69;
(o) M60;
(p) M62;
(q) M70B1;
(r) M70AB2;
(s) M76;
(t) M77B1;
(u) M78;
(v) M80;
(w) M80A;
(x) MAK90;
(y) MPiK;
(z) MPiKM;
(z.1) MPiKMS-72;
(z.2) MPiKS;
(z.3) PKM;
(z.4) PKM-DGN-60;
(z.5) PMKM;
(z.6) RPK;
(z.7) RPK-74;
(z.8) RPK-87S;
(z.9) Type 56;
(z.10) Type 56-1;
(z.11) Type 56-2;
(z.12) Type 56-3;
(z.13) Type 56-4;
(z.14) Type 68;
(z.15) Type 79;
(z.16) American Arms AKY39;
(z.17) American Arms AKF39;
(z.18) American Arms AKC47;
(z.19) American Arms AKF47;
(z.20) MAM70WS762;
(z.21) MAM70FS762;
(z.22) Mitchell AK-22;
(z.23) Mitchell AK-47;
(z.24) Mitchell Heavy Barrel AK-47;
(z.25) Norinco 84S;
(z.26) Norinco 84S AK;
(z.27) Norinco 56;
(z.28) Norinco 56-1;
(z.29) Norinco 56-2;
(z.30) Norinco 56-3;
(z.31) Norinco 56-4;
(z.32) Poly Technologies Inc. AK-47/S;
(z.33) Poly Technologies Inc. AKS-47/S;
(z.34) Poly Technologies Inc. AKS-762;
(z.35) Valmet M76;
(z.36) Valmet M76 carbine;
(z.37) Valmet M78/A2;
(z.38) Valmet M78 (NATO) LMG;
(z.39) Valmet M82; and
(z.40) Valmet M82 Bullpup.

[Tejas]

17. your rose-colored glasses lied to you

this just in: iverglas declares that since there are gunlaws in Canada, then there is no gun trafficking in Canada.


Do your laws somehow mystically prevent criminals from carrying out criminal acts in your country? Up to and including exporting weapons?

Amazing, you simply MUST tell us how Canada accomplishes this. As a matter of fact, the U.N. would love to hear it also.

Now if you can just figure out how to keep those pesky terrorists from running all over your country and heading south across the 49th, by golly we'll be waiting for that solution too!

[iverglas]

24. It isn't my glasses lying

Do your laws somehow mystically prevent criminals from carrying out criminal acts in your country? Up to and including exporting weapons?

Do things not have to exist before they can be exported?

Did you have some basis for your implied premise in this statement:

Doesn't take much to ship one straight from Quebec to anywhere in Mexico.

That there ARE AK-47s in Canada?


Now if you can just figure out how to keep those pesky terrorists from running all over your country and heading south across the 49th, by golly we'll be waiting for that solution too!

Just as soon as you can tell us why you are smearing right-wing lies all over a forum at Democratic Underground.

[Tejas]

45. Yes, Dorothy, there are AK-47's in Canada

"Did you have some basis for your implied premise in this statement:

Doesn't take much to ship one straight from Quebec to anywhere in Mexico.

That there ARE AK-47s in Canada?"


Yes, not only semi-auto-AK47-style-rifles, but actual full-auto AK-47's. Many are legally owned, many are not, especially those that just arrived at the docks coming into your country.

All is not lost thuogh, click your heels 3 times and say
"there are no AK-47's in Canada",
"there are no AK-47's in Canada",
"there are no AK-47's in Canada".

Maybe they'll magically disappear from Canadian soil and reappear in Mexico.



Oh wait, that's already happened.

[iverglas]

48. pretty funny

In post 47, I have gorfle saying:

Why would you traffic these common third-world weapons through the United States where they are so highly regulated?

and in this post, I have you saying:

Yes, not only semi-auto-AK47-style-rifles, but actual full-auto AK-47's. Many are legally owned, many are not, especially those that just arrived at the docks coming into your country.

You guys really oughta get your stories straight.

Unless there's really some reason to assert that AK-47s arrive at the docks in Canada and not at the docks in the US. And that someone would really choose to traffic AK-47s into Mexico by first shipping them to Canada ...


Maybe they'll magically disappear from Canadian soil and reappear in Mexico.
Oh wait, that's already happened.

Oh dear, I seem to have missed that. I mean, other than as some sort of bald assertion by you.

Along with this one:

Yes, not only semi-auto-AK47-style-rifles, but actual full-auto AK-47's. Many are legally owned ...

Legally owned prohibited AK-47s? "Many"?

You seriously believe this? And you seriously suggest that however many legally-owned AK-47s there are in Mexico -- "legally-owned" meaning legally owned before 1995 and possessed by someone with a licence to posess them, and registered -- being trafficked into Mexico?


http://www.canlii.com/ca/as/1995/c39/whole.html

An Act respecting firearms and other weapons
(Assented to 5th December, 1995)

Special Cases -- Prohibited Firearms, Weapons, Devices and Ammunition

Prohibited firearms -- individuals

... 12. (1) An individual who is otherwise eligible to hold a licence is not eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms except as provided in this section.

Grandfathered individuals -- pre-January 1, 1978 automatic firearms

(2) An individual is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess automatic firearms that, on the commencement day, were registered as restricted weapons under the former Act if the individual

(a) on January 1, 1978 possessed one or more automatic firearms;

(b) on the commencement day held a registration certificate under the former Act for one or more automatic firearms; and

(c) beginning on the commencement day was continuously the holder of a registration certificate for one or more automatic firearms.

Grandfathered individuals -- pre-August 1, 1992 converted automatic firearms

(3) An individual is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess automatic firearms that have been altered to discharge only one projectile during one pressure of the trigger and that, on the commencement day, were registered as restricted weapons under the former Act if the individual

(a) on August 1, 1992 possessed one or more automatic firearms

(i) that had been so altered, and

(ii) for which on October 1, 1992 a registration certificate under the former Act had been issued or applied for;

(b) on the commencement day held a registration certificate under the former Act for one or more automatic firearms that had been so altered; and

(c) beginning on the commencement day was continuously the holder of a registration certificate for one or more automatic firearms that have been so altered.

Grandfathered individuals -- Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 12

(4) An individual is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess firearms that were declared to be prohibited weapons under the former Act by the Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 12, made by Order in Council P.C. 1992-1690 of July 23, 1992 and registered as SOR/92-471 and that, on October 1, 1992, either were registered as restricted weapons under the former Act or were the subject of an application for a registration certificate under the former Act if the individual

(a) before July 27, 1992 possessed one or more firearms that were so declared;

(b) on the commencement day held a registration certificate under the former Act for one or more firearms that were so declared; and

(c) beginning on the commencement day was continuously the holder of a registration certificate for one or more firearms that were so declared.

Grandfathered individuals -- Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 13

(5) An individual is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess firearms that were declared to be prohibited weapons under the former Act by the Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 13, made by Order in Council P.C. 1994-1974 of November 29, 1994 and registered as SOR/94-741 and that, on January 1, 1995, either were registered as restricted weapons under the former Act or were the subject of an application for a registration certificate under the former Act if the individual

(a) before January 1, 1995 possessed one or more firearms that were so declared;

(b) on the commencement day held a registration certificate under the former Act for one or more firearms that were so declared; and

(c) beginning on the commencement day was continuously the holder of a registration certificate for one or more firearms that were so declared.

Grandfathered individuals -- pre-February 14, 1995 handguns

(6) A particular individual is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the particular individual to possess handguns that have a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length or that are designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge and for which on February 14, 1995 a registration certificate under the former Act had been issued to or applied for by that or another individual if the particular individual

(a) on February 14, 1995

(i) held a registration certificate under the former Act for one or more of those handguns, or

(ii) had applied for a registration certificate that was subsequently issued under the former Act for one or more of those handguns;

(b) on the commencement day held a registration certificate under the former Act for one or more of those handguns; and

(c) beginning on the commencement day was continuously the holder of a registration certificate for one or more of those handguns.

Next of kin of grandfathered individuals -- pre-February 14, 1995 handguns

(7) A particular individual is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the particular individual to possess a particular handgun referred to in subsection (6) that was manufactured before 1946 if the particular individual is the spouse or a brother, sister, child or grandchild of an individual who was eligible under this or that subsection to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess the particular handgun.

Grandfathered individuals -- regulations re prohibited firearms

(8) An individual is, in the prescribed circumstances, eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess firearms prescribed by a provision of regulations made by the Governor in Council under section 117.15 of the Criminal Code to be prohibited firearms if the individual

(a) on the day on which the provision comes into force possesses one or more of those firearms; and

(b) beginning on

(i) the day on which that provision comes into force, or

(ii) in the case of an individual who on that day did not hold but had applied for a registration certificate for one or more of those firearms, the day on which the registration certificate was issued

was continuously the holder of a registration certificate for one or more of those firearms.

Hmm.

[Tejas]

52. You're too easily confused

In post 47, I have gorfle saying:

Why would you traffic these common third-world weapons through the United States where they are so highly regulated?

and in this post, I have you saying:

Yes, not only semi-auto-AK47-style-rifles, but actual full-auto AK-47's. Many are legally owned, many are not, especially those that just arrived at the docks coming into your country.

You guys really oughta get your stories straight.

Unless there's really some reason to assert that AK-47s arrive at the docks in Canada and not at the docks in the US. And that someone would really choose to traffic AK-47s into Mexico by first shipping them to Canada ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gorfle and I are talking about 2 different things, YOU are the one that keeps trying to inject the USA into the mix as the evil axis that gun-running depends on at all costs.

Wake up, learn something about the subject, then maybe you'd get some respect. Until then, sit over there with the rest that just spit out whatever rude childish crap comes to mind.

The guns exist, there are photos on webpages and hardrives of even North Korean AK-47's used in Mexico and in the rest of Central America. Your deceptive rhetoric and constant attempts with apple/orange concepts to wish away the idea that a single one of them didn't get stored in and then shipped from Canada are laughable to the rest of us that know our subject.

But you knew that.

Enjoy your nirvana dream of an innocent Canada, and by all means, have a nice day!

[iverglas]

53. Obsession

Don't ask for a bottle for Christmas. You're already well stocked.

[Tejas]

60. all I know about "Obsession" is that it

smells good on women, Walmart had it on sale last week.

Wouldn't clean a gun with it though.

[iverglas]

82. can we get an answer to post 54 now?

It's been waiting a while.

[iverglas]

54. Searchable gun registry

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/rapidfire/form.html

"The Service contains listings for more than 7 million firearms that were legally registered in Canada, as of November 2006. Because of privacy provisions, the records do not include the owners' names or addresses, but do include the first two characters of their postal codes. The RCMP has indicated that releasing more than two characters could risk identifying the locations of firearms in smaller communities."

For postal code M5 (downtown Toronto), there are 29 results for "prohibited" "machine gun".
(the "full" is the link to details)

MAKE MODEL TYPE ACTION CLASS PROV
Bren Gun Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Bren Gun MARK 1 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Bren Gun MARK 1 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Bren Gun MARK 1 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Bren Gun MARK 1 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Bren Gun MARK 1 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Bren Gun MARK 1 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Browning Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Browning Automatic Rifle M1918A2 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Browning Machine Gun M1919A4 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Browning Machine Gun M3 Aircraft Basic Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Colt M1914 Browning Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
FN MAG 58 Machine Gun Converted Auto Prohibited ON full
FN MAG 58 Machine Gun Converted Auto Prohibited ON full
German MG42 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
German Machine Gun MG08/15 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
German Machine Gun MG08/15 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
German Machine Gun MG08/15 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
German Machine Gun MG34 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
German Machine Gun MG42 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Hotchkiss No 2 MARK 1* Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Japanese Machine Gun Type 96 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Lewis Machine Gun 1915 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
Maremont Corporation 60 Machine Gun Converted Auto Prohibited ON full
Maremont Corporation 60 Machine Gun Converted Auto Prohibited ON full
Maxim MG08/15 Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full
RUSSIAN PKM Machine Gun Converted Auto Prohibited ON full
RUSSIAN PKM Machine Gun Converted Auto Prohibited ON full
Vickers Machine Gun MARK 1 Water Cooled Machine Gun Full Automatic Prohibited ON full


I clicked randomly on some of the "full"s and found individual, business and museum ownership.

Tried the search for K1, the downtown of the national capital, Ottawa, and also the official postal code for all govt dept HQs, unfortunately. Over 200 returns (the max for that search), virtually all "museum" from what I could tell.

A country-wide search for prohibited, machine gun, make Kalashnikov, returned two results, both apparently owned by the same individual in southern Ontario.

A country-wide search for prohibited, make Kalashnikov, returned these AK-relevant results:

AVTOMAT KALASHNIKOV AK47 Rifle Converted Auto Prohibited BC
AVTOMAT KALASHNIKOV AK47 Rifle Converted Auto Prohibited ON
AVTOMAT KALASHNIKOV MP1KM Rifle Converted Auto Prohibited ON

A country-wide search specifying only model AK returned 158 results, most of which seem to be semi-automatic non-restricted weapons.

For AK restricted, there is one:

Norinco AK-47/S Rifle Semi-Automatic Restricted BC

For AK prohibited, there are 30.

For M5 (downtown toronto), model AK, no results.




Goldarn! This country is really just awash in those things.

[Tejas]

46. bad hand, you need to cash out

me:
Now if you can just figure out how to keep those pesky terrorists from running all over your country and heading south across the 49th, by golly we'll be waiting for that solution too!

you:
Just as soon as you can tell us why you are smearing right-wing lies all over a forum at Democratic Underground.


me:
Ahmed Ressam

^
^
^
^
right-wing lies EH?

[iverglas]

49. bad memory? maybe ginseng would help ...

statement 1:

Now if you can just figure out how to keep those pesky terrorists from running all over your country and heading south across the 49th, by golly we'll be waiting for that solution too!

statement 2:

Ahmed Ressam


Not looking like anything but a right-wing lie to me.

This country wasn't where the "pesky terrorists" were "running all over", I'd say.

But hell, you may not have noticed. Terrorism is a bit of a global problem these days.

[Tejas]

61. more childish non-answers, go show your jealousy of Jody or something n/t

[iverglas]

89. no chance of a reply to post 54 then?

I guess that's because there just is none, eh?

[iverglas]

9. don't choke on that straw, now

No gun law on Earth can stop CRIMINALS from doing what they please.

If only, if only, if only anybody had ever said it could.


What makes you think the source of the AK47's was the U.S.?

Oh, how about the numerous credible sources describing the drugs-for-guns trade between the US and Mexico?

Direct exchange is a whole lot easier than laundering cash, you know. It works that way in the illicit trade between the US and Canada too. I'm sure you do know this.


What makes you think the source of the AK47's was the U.S.?

(edited) I did say it was virtually certain. That's where firearms used by organized crime in Mexico mainly come from. Are there really none of these in the US? It's possible these particular weapons came from somewhere else. A majority of the crime weapons of the semi-automatic rifle type in Mexico come from the US. Try reading something sometime. And without those weapons, the domestic criminal activity that these killers were obviously part of just wouldn't be possible to the extent it now is.


You, not being a citizen or resident of the United States, obviously don't know what you are talking about.

Oh, you're just all confused.

I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm female and over 40.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

11. Just to give you a clue, an AK-47 is not a semi-automatic weapon.

[iverglas]

23. just to help you out

I didn't say that an AK-47 is a semi-automatic weapon.

I said that a majority of the semi-automatic weapons used in crime in Mexico come from the US.

I queried whether it really was impossible that the AK-47s in this incident came from the US.

I said that semi-automatic weapons from the US are a necessary factor in the drug-related criminal activities in Mexico, since without a reliable supply of those weapons, the criminals could not carry on the activities they do now, specifically the violent intimidation they need to maintain, and the reprisals like this incident.

The guns are as essential to the drug trade as the drugs are. The drugs are traded for guns. In the US. If the drug traffickers could not get the guns, they could not operate their drug trafficking business. If there were no supply of guns in the US, the trade would be more difficult because the guns would have to be obtained elsewhere with laundered money from the drug sales in the US.

All clear now?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. Nothing like a little revision before lunch.

In this post it is, "I queried whether it really was impossible that the AK-47s in this incident came from the US."

In earlier posts it was, "the robbers' weapons were virtually certainly obtained and then smuggled into Mexico ... the United States of America."

Reminds me of stockpiles of WMD and all Bush administration statements there after.

David

[AtheistCrusader]

28. I could be wrong but...

Those appear to be fully automatic, in this video***. Fully automatic AK-47's are quite rare in this country. There is a very narrow window where any were legally imported at all, they are all registered, and tightly controlled. Not to mention, expensive. Just applying Ockham's razor, I would guess that if these are in fact fully automatic, they came from south of Mexico, or through direct illicit shipments from other parts of the world. It's not like it's difficult to do.

Even if they are semi-auto, there are much cheaper, sneakier, and higher volume options than trying to obtain them from the US. I think its clear some of the weapons are coming from the US, but I have not yet encountered any solid numbers on how many/what types. I'm interested if you have some.


*** Based on the way the first fellow in the door fires, he scores multiple hits on multiple people in the second and a half or so, before his buddy wings him from behind. The others are fired in a manner that would suggest to me semi-auto. Pretty bad video quality, and no audio for a shot count, so again, I could be wrong, but I tend to doubt it.

[iverglas]

31. aaargh

Yes, I was never in any doubt as to the characterization of the weapons given by others here!

And yes, I know that *legally owned* items like this are rare in the US.

I have no reason to believe that there is no *illicit trafficking* in items like this in the US, and that the same firearm traffickers who supply semi-automatic weapons to Mexican drug traffickers would not be perfectly willing and able to supply items like this.

I also think it is perfectly credible, possibly more so, that the items in question were obtained from traffickers not in the US.

My point seems to be getting staved off by a lot of people making a lot of effort not to get it.


WERE IT NOT for the firearms they are able to obtain, Mexican drug traffickers WOULD BE UNABLE to operate as they do now, that is, to exercise enough control, through intimidation, violence and corruption, to be able to carry on their illegal activities.

WERE IT NOT for the firearms they are able to obtain IN THE U.S., Mexican drug traffickers would not wield all of the power and influence they wield in Mexico.

(Sure. They could get them somewhere else. Why don't they? One reason is that they need something to trade for them, and the drugs they traffic into the US are what they trade for the guns. Does whoever is providing them with North Korean AK-47s want the volume of drugs that the Mexican traffickers export to the US? Not likely, I'd say.)

Were it not for that power and influence, and violence and corruption and all the rest of it, incidents like the one on the videotape would be very unlikely to occur, because there simply WOULD NOT BE the powerful criminal organizations that there are in Mexico at present.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Sorry, that got muddled up.

To a point, I agree, however, if availability drops too much, worldwide, or the weapons become prohibitively expensive, a criminal organization can simply make these rifles. In fact, it's much easier than, say, counterfieting money. Except for a properly tempered bolt face and barrel, I have pretty much everything I would need, and I don't even make firearms. Part of the attraction of the AK-47 pattern is it's simplicity to manufacture. There is probably a statistically significant number of fully automatic AK-47's in this country, that have never had a serial number, and were not made in a factory.

So, sure, it would help to reduce general circulation. But only to a point. (in my opinion, I am not a criminal mastermind, mileage may vary)

Edit: Woah, post 33.. Interesting stuff.

[gorfle]

30. Virtually false.

Oh, how about the numerous credible sources describing the drugs-for-guns trade between the US and Mexico?

Direct exchange is a whole lot easier than laundering cash, you know. It works that way in the illicit trade between the US and Canada too. I'm sure you do know this.

(edited) I did say it was virtually certain. That's where firearms used by organized crime in Mexico mainly come from. Are there really none of these in the US? It's possible these particular weapons came from somewhere else. A majority of the crime weapons of the semi-automatic rifle type in Mexico come from the US. Try reading something sometime. And without those weapons, the domestic criminal activity that these killers were obviously part of just wouldn't be possible to the extent it now is.

I think it is highly, highly unlikely that fully automatic AK-47s like those in the video originated in the United States. They are not manufactured here, and those in circulation are incredibly expensive.

It is far far more likely that they originated from Latin America.

[iverglas]

32. and I didn't say

that they likely ORIGINATED in the US.

Small arms trafficking goes on all over. But heavens to betsy, in the US????

It may indeed be far more likely that they originated elsewhere.

Now you just go ahead and avoid my point too. If you've missed it, it's spelled out in several posts in this thread.

[gorfle]

38. What are you trying to say?

and I didn't say that they likely ORIGINATED in the US.

In usual fashion, Iverglas, I don't know what you're trying to say then.

You said:

I did say it was virtually certain. That's where firearms used by organized crime in Mexico mainly come from.

You were saying that the firearms in the video probably came from the US.

I'm saying it's highly unlikely that the AK-47s did. At least one of them was fully automatic. It's far more likely they came from Central America.

Now you just go ahead and avoid my point too. If you've missed it, it's spelled out in several posts in this thread.

I don't care what your point in some other post was. I'm just pointing out you are probably wrong in that the assault weapons in the video probably did not come from the US.

[iverglas]

41. were they made in Central America?

Not likely. So they didn't ORIGINATE there either. Just as, if they were trafficked through the US as they could quite easily have been, they would not have ORIGINATED there.

So my saying they could well have been trafficked into Mexico from the US was not a statement that they ORIGINATED in the US.

I find it wise not to let shifts in meaning pass unremarked.

[gorfle]

47. You are so tiring sometimes, Iverglas.

Not likely. So they didn't ORIGINATE there either. Just as, if they were trafficked through the US as they could quite easily have been, they would not have ORIGINATED there.

So my saying they could well have been trafficked into Mexico from the US was not a statement that they ORIGINATED in the US.

I find it wise not to let shifts in meaning pass unremarked.


No, Iverglas, you're just playing your usual shuck-and-jive semantic ducking again.

I don't care where the fuck the guns were MANUFACTURED. The point is, it seems highly unlikely that the select-fire AK47s passed through the United States on their way to Mexico, regardless of where they were manufactured.

Why would you traffic these common third-world weapons through the United States where they are so highly regulated?

[Tejas]

62. easy on 'em gorfle, shuck-n-jive is all they have - nt

[dalus]

90. If you were from Mexico you could buy an AK-47 here

http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc/ak47?sz=800x600

Using a straw purchaser with a Class III firearms permit, of course. I personally don't know anyone who would do that for me, but no doubt someone with serious organized crime connections would have no problem finding such an agent for the right price.

[fireonthemountain]

8. These are is a full auto AK's in the video

So not gotten from the United States of America. Smuggled in from South America probably and they arent legal anywhere in S America either they must have broken the law or something.

[Tejas]

18. South America is "somewhat" responsible, concerning trafficking

Alas fireonthemountain, antis don't know firearms, they just hate them. Ignorance of firearms in general is what makes 99% of the their arguments so ridiculous, they just DO NOT know their subject.

Your point of South America being a source for full-auto AK-47's is somewhat true, especially when it comes to trafficking. The actual country of origin of the rifles though would/should raise a few eyebrows.

Maybe the antis here would enlighten the rest of us as to how NORTH KOREAN AK-47's have proliferated from the Rio Grande all the way down to Panama?

Yes, NK AK's.

*Waits for moronic statements from antis and gungrabbers that straw buyers got them in a US gunstore and smuggled them south.

[Tejas]

19. as usual, yours is > "ban US guns = save the whole world"

uh, yep, got it. :sarcasm:

[DrCory]

20. How about some evidence...

To back up this statement?

"That the country where the robbers' weapons were virtually certainly obtained and then smuggled into Mexico ... the United States of America"

[gorfle]

29. It seems unlikely to me.

That if the security guard had been armed ...?

He might -- it is obviously extremely unlikely, but he might -- have been able to take a shot at one of the robbers ... before being killed.


Very obviously, none of the other individuals in the store, no matter what weapons they might have been carrying, had any opportunity to use them.

I agree. This was a planned hit and the store was stormed by at least 3 attackers, maybe 4. If they had been armed with machetes it would not have mattered.

That the country where the robbers' weapons were virtually certainly obtained and then smuggled into Mexico ... the United States of America ... should do something to prevent murders of people like these in other countries?

It seems from the video that at least one of the weapons was fully-automatic. It seems highly unlikely that such weaponry would have originated from the USA. They are not manufactured here, and are too expensive here.

[davepc]

7. It was a mob hit, the only thing that could of saved those people was a Secret Service detail

and even then who knows.

Pretty perceptive of you to know the guns came from the United States.

I couldn't tell if they were semi of full automatic, much less their country of origin.

[iverglas]

33. Phew. It isn't just me.

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/international-news/portfolio/2008/06/16/Examining-the-US-Mexico-Gun-Trade

Not your loony lefty source.
(With my emphases; lengthy article, excerpts here constitute fair use/fair dealing)

Arming the Drug Wars
by James Verini July 2008 Issue

The U.S. has pledged more than $1 billion to help Mexico win its war on drugs. But even as the body count rises above 10,000, most of the guns that do the killing—Colt .38 Supers and big-bore Barrett rifles among them—keep pouring in from the U.S.

See how Mexico's free-wheeling gun and narcotics trades feed off each other.

Guns are nearly impossible to buy legally in Mexico, so when the Beltrán Leyva haul was brought into federal police headquarters in Mexico City, agents sent serial numbers to the American embassy. There, they were fed into eTrace, a network created by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, the agency that investigates arms trafficking, and the information emerged seconds later at the A.T.F.’s National Tracing Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia. The center receives more than 800 trace requests a day. Each usually takes two weeks to process, but in an urgent situation, one can be performed in a day or less. (View an interactive look at which guns are produced where.)

... “Every gun has a story to tell,” as A.T.F. agents like to say. Beltrán Leyva’s Colt told not only its own story but also one that American and Mexican authorities and residents of the bloodstained border region know all too well—namely, that almost every gun fired in Mexico’s drug war comes from the U.S.

... In late 2007, the Bush administration, which counts Calderón as one of its few friends in Latin America, announced the Mérida Initiative. If passed by Congress, it will provide Mexico with $1.4 billion in equipment and training over three years. But the initiative, with its unprecedented outlay of funds, is fraught with contradictions, since it would go to fight the flow of weapons coming in illegally from the U.S. More than 90 percent of the A.T.F.’s traces of guns seized in Mexico lead to the States. The Mexican ambassador recently estimated that 2,000 guns cross the border every day. Even if that figure is halved, it’s a trade worth hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

... The guns move south in the same way that the drugs move north. Their flow is overseen by “gatekeepers,” transportation specialists who control “plazas,” which are border towns that serve as hubs of the drug corridors. When guns are needed in Mexico, just as when drugs are needed in the U.S., an order is called in to a gatekeeper on the U.S. side, who then subcontracts purchasers and drivers. Gatekeepers, often members of Latin American prison and street gangs that sell cartel-trafficked drugs, “own these corridors,” says Steve McCraw, director of Homeland Security in Texas. Adds Richard Valdemar, a former gang investigator with the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department: “If you can trust a guy to sell your 50 kilos, you can trust him to get you 50 machine guns. Guns are the stock-in-trade for bartering.”

... No cops came looking for him. The store owner didn’t call. No sweat. A few weeks later, the men left another bundle of cash, and Rodriguez went back to Ammo Depot and bought an AK-47 <yes, it was probably a semi-automatic>, which he likewise handed off. Still no questions. A week later, the men dropped off about $10,000, and Rodriguez bought nine AR-15s. It turns out the men were driving the guns to Reynosa, Mexico, where Cárdenas Guillén and the Sinaloans were waging a fierce battle for control of the plaza. Rodriguez earned $50 a gun. Eventually, an A.T.F. agent who visited Ammo Depot noticed Rodriguez’s name coming up repeatedly in the store’s sales records. After months of tracking him, in November 2003 agents arrested Rodriguez, who by then had bought more than 150 guns. He is now serving a 70-month sentence in federal prison. The men who paid him were never caught, and only five of the guns Rodriguez bought were recovered. One was connected to the shooting of a local police officer in Reynosa. I ask the agent why Ammo Depot didn’t alert the A.T.F.; after all, Rodriguez was paying cash for dozens of weapons popular with drug traffickers. The agent’s reply: “As long as he passes the background check, it’s a completely legal sale.”

... Buying guns in America is easy. Transporting them across the border requires more invention. Weapons are usually seized from passenger vehicles, which are often stolen. But the gatekeepers are getting smarter. In Laredo, investigators have noticed that traffickers now like to invest in used-car dealerships. “If you stop a guy and he says, ‘I’m a used-car salesman,’ there’s a good chance he’s a trafficker,” says Robert Garcia, a homicide investigator with the Laredo Police Department.

Smuggled guns have also turned up in freight trucks, which is troubling to some investigators since it suggests that gatekeepers have infiltrated the flow of commercial traffic. There are numerous ways to put the guns on trucks. Bribing drivers is the most prevalent. Trailers can be fitted with hidden compartments and false walls and leased to unsuspecting trucking companies. In Mexico, it’s not uncommon for these companies to be partly owned by traffickers.

... On the way back from Mexico, I stop at a gun show at a fairground in Phoenix. There are hundreds of people here, a cross section of America. ... I watch as a group of well-dressed men—Mexican nationals, judging from the license plate on their S.U.V.—buy thousands of AK-47 bullets without so much as presenting identification. ...

Anybody who is still thirsting after facts and figures should feel free to read the entire seven pages, and of course do their own research.

[gorfle]

39. All I have to say is:

“If you can trust a guy to sell your 50 kilos, you can trust him to get you 50 machine guns.

If the most restrictive firearm laws in the nation can't prevent someone from getting 50 machine guns at a whim, gun control is an absolute lost cause anyway.

50 legal M16s on the open market would cost you around $1,000,000.

[iverglas]

40. hardly worth the bother saying it, was it?

[ManiacJoe]

42. The straw purchaser actually went to prison. Wow.

You don't read about that happening very often, sad to say.

[Irreverend IX]

43. There's only one way to shut this all down...

Legalize drugs. Much as you'd hate to admit it, there are many problems that cannot be solved and are in many cases exacerbated by prohibitive legislation. Banning guns would be no more successful than banning drugs has been.

[iverglas]

50. such simple solutions

They generally come from simple minds, and I'm not actually persuaded you have one of them.

Booze was legalized. Organized crime fround other profit-making ventures. Organized crime has made profits from prostitution, gambling, protection; quite a number of ventures.

As long as there are profit-making ventures to engage in, organized crime will engage in them. Unless we are willing to eliminate all laws against / permit all possible behaviours, organized crime will find behaviours to engage in for profit.

And they will always need weapons in order to do that. And simple minds will keep on wringing their hands and saying there's just nothing we can do about it.

I favour decrminalizing drug possession (and organizing some sort of distribution method that will cut off the profits while not increasing availability/use). One reason is that criminalizing it provides opportunities for organized crime, and leads to violence such as we are discussing.

I do not, however, delude myself into believing that decriminalizing drug possession / distribution will put an end to the profit-seeking activities of criminal organizations or the violence they use to protect their profit sources. Or their need for firearms for that purpose.

[X_Digger]

44. Not a lot of actual references

I'd like to see something official, rather than one piece by an author who also does stories about myspace.

http://www.jamesverini.com/www.jamesverini.com/Blog/Blog.html

For another source, check this article that was written 3 years into the failed AWB-

http://www.fas.org/asmp/library/publications/us-mexico.htm

(and this one actually has citations for the information presented, not just bald assertions or unsubstantiated quotes)

like..

"Mexico's leftist rebel armies appear to be getting their arms principally from enormous stores left over from the Central American wars of the 1980s. Many of those arms were, of course, supplied by Washington, too, either through massive military aid programs or as part of covert government operations. According to a report by the attorney general's office last fall, arms from north of the border are mainly being used in street crimes, such as holdups, kidnappings, and murders.15"

Even when some of these arms come through the US, they don't do so via means that gun control laws would stop-

"the weapons had entered the US through the port of Long Beach, California, in two large, sealed containers. The shipment originated in Vietnam, where America, as part of its war legacy, had left behind large quantities of weapons, including M-2 automatic rifles.22 Before the arms returned home, they were well-traveled, having gone from Ho Chi Minh City to Singapore to Bremerhaven, Germany, through the Panama Canal and up to Long Beach.23

The contents of the containers were falsely represented as hand tools and strap hangers. US Customs at Long Beach did not inspect the, cargo since the shipment was "in-bond"--that is, the items were simply transiting the US enroute to another country, in this instance Mexico."

The summary adds this nugget that echos what folks have been pointing out here:

"All of these steps address supply, but ignore the root causes of the tremendous demand for lethal firepower. Crime, and related gun use, among small-time criminals is often fueled by desperate social conditions-lack of jobs, hopelessness, and poverty. In Mexico, every year 158,000 babies die before 5 years of age because of nutritionally related disease. ..."

[iverglas]

51. not much I can say

if you choose not to accept the gun traces done by your BATFE as "something official".

Of course, maybe the silly journalist was just making them up.


But hey, maybe gorfle and Tejas and anyone else interested will take note of the passage you quote:

the weapons had entered the US through the port of Long Beach, California, in two large, sealed containers. The shipment originated in Vietnam, where America, as part of its war legacy, had left behind large quantities of weapons, including M-2 automatic rifles.22 Before the arms returned home, they were well-traveled, having gone from Ho Chi Minh City to Singapore to Bremerhaven, Germany, through the Panama Canal and up to Long Beach.

The contents of the containers were falsely represented as hand tools and strap hangers. US Customs at Long Beach did not inspect the, cargo since the shipment was "in-bond"--that is, the items were simply transiting the US enroute to another country, in this instance Mexico.

Noooo. Firearms could/would never be trafficked into Mexico from somewhere else through the US.

Crime, and related gun use, among small-time criminals is often fueled by desperate social conditions-lack of jobs, hopelessness, and poverty.

Yeah. The drug cartels are desperately poor.


html fixed

[X_Digger]

55. I'm sorry, did you see a source?

I didn't see a source for any of the quotes in the article.. I googled quite a bit for some of the key facts, and they didn't come up outside of this article. You'd think the author would cite his source if he wanted to be taken seriously. You don't seem to subscribe to this idea, but just because someone gets published, it doesn't make what they write true.

[iverglas]

56. Of course not! He made it all up!!!

One of the pistols taken from Beltrán Leyva’s truck was an American-built, silver-plated Colt .38 Super, long the preferred firearm of aesthetically inclined narco­traficantes. Originally made in the 1920s, the .38 is an iconic gun, with a sleek rectangular barrel, angled handle, and forward-thrusting look that give it a certain élan. Custom models like Beltrán Leyva’s can go for $10,000. A monogrammed, emerald-encrusted .38 Super that belonged to one infamous drug lord now resides in a Mexican museum.

Guns are nearly impossible to buy legally in Mexico, so when the Beltrán Leyva haul was brought into federal police headquarters in Mexico City, agents sent serial numbers to the American embassy. There, they were fed into eTrace, a network created by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, the agency that investigates arms trafficking, and the information emerged seconds later at the A.T.F.’s National Tracing Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia. The center receives more than 800 trace requests a day. Each usually takes two weeks to process, but in an urgent situation, one can be performed in a day or less.

The situation was urgent. A string of government assassinations was possibly in the works, according to Mexican law-enforcement officials I spoke with. Until recently, members of the Sinaloa cartel had managed to avoid the government crackdown that was devastating the rival Gulf cartel. But Mexican president Felipe Calderón now seemed to be going after the Sinaloans too, and word had come from informants that Guzmán, who’s infamous for killing politicians when he’s not buying them off, had given orders to bring the war to the capital. Beltrán Leyva, it seems, “was tasked with taking some reprisal action or took it upon himself to go out and make a hit,” an A.T.F. agent who frequently works in Mexico tells me.

To find Beltrán Leyva’s .38 Super, analysts at the tracing center sent the serial number to Colt, which produced the name of the wholesaler, who in turn dug up the location of the dealer. The pistol’s trail led back to X Caliber Guns on North Cave Creek Road in Phoenix, where it had been purchased three months earlier. From there it was smuggled over the border, probably at Nogales, Arizona. “Every gun has a story to tell,” as A.T.F. agents like to say. Beltrán Leyva’s Colt told not only its own story but also one that American and Mexican authorities and residents of the bloodstained border region know all too well—namely, that almost every gun fired in Mexico’s drug war comes from the U.S.

Me, I would have expected "an A.T.F. agent who frequently works in Mexico" to offer up his/her name for publication.

And I would have no hesitation believing that the editors and publishers at Condé Nast Portfolio just print whatever some scabby journalist submits without querying any facts/sources alleged by the journalist.

Why, if I thought otherwise, I'd be a fool.

[X_Digger]

57. I was referring to your emphasis..

almost every gun fired in Mexico’s drug war comes from the U.S.

More than 90 percent of the A.T.F.’s traces of guns seized in Mexico lead to the States. The Mexican ambassador recently estimated that 2,000 guns cross the border every day.

Those are some pretty bold claims, and you'd think that someone, somewhere would be able to substantiate them.

The passage I posted about guns also coming up from central and south america seems to disagree with one of the statements you highlighted.

[iverglas]

58. not taking your point

almost every gun fired in Mexico’s drug war comes from the U.S.

More than 90 percent of the A.T.F.’s traces of guns seized in Mexico lead to the States. The Mexican ambassador recently estimated that 2,000 guns cross the border every day.

Was there really something unclear about "More than 90 percent of the A.T.F.’s traces of guns seized in Mexico lead to the States"?

I guess "more than 90 percent" isn't the same as "almost every".

If I could put the puck in the net 91% of the time, I think I'd say I could do it almost every time. But I guess that's just me.

And I suspect the Mexican Ambassador to the US has some kind of clue.

http://mexico.usembassy.gov/eng/releases/ep080116eTrace.html

Press Releases 08
Our Continued Efforts Will Deny Firearms to Criminal Organizations and Reduce Gun Violence
Statement by Ambassador Antonio O. Garza

Mexico City, January 16, 2008 - “Today I am announcing that the U.S. government is increasing its ongoing efforts to stem the illegal flow of firearms to Mexico, to deprive drug trafficking organizations of firearms and to reduce gun-related violence on both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border.

“As part of Project Gunrunner, announced today by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), eTrace technology will be used in all nine U.S. consulates in Mexico to help trace firearms. Using eTrace technology bolsters the capacity of law enforcement agencies to identify patterns of drug traffickers and other criminal organizations bringing guns into Mexico from the United States. In addition, eTrace assists criminal investigators to develop leads and prosecute firearms traffickers and straw purchasers (people who knowingly purchase guns for prohibited persons) even before they cross the border.

“The eTrace technology was recently installed in U.S. consulates in Monterrey, Hermosillo and Guadalajara, with additional deliveries to all the remaining U.S. consulates in Mexico planned by March 2008. We also are in discussions with the government of Mexico to create a Spanish-language version of eTrace for use by law enforcement agencies in Mexico.

“Project Gunrunner will also focus ATF’s investigative, intelligence and training expertise to suppress firearms trafficking to Mexico, with additional special agents, industry operations investigators and intelligence research specialists in the United States assigned to combat firearms trafficking to Mexico.

“The continued expansion of our enforcement and strategic efforts on the U.S.-Mexico border, in partnership with the government of Mexico and other U.S. agencies, will deny firearms to criminal organizations and combat gun-related violence and homicides on both sides of the U.S.- Mexico border.”

But again, that could be just me.

Hmm.

http://mexico.usembassy.gov/eng/texts/et080116eTrace.html

Allow me to emphasize.

BORDERS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT
Project Gunrunner
ATF Fact Sheet

ATF is deploying its resources strategically on the Southwest Border to deny firearms, the “tools of the trade,” to criminal organizations in Mexico and along the border, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both sides of the border. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and with the Government of Mexico, ATF refined its Southwest Border strategy. ATF developed Project Gunrunner to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico and thereby deprive the narcotics cartels of weapons. The initiative seeks to focus ATF’s investigative, intelligence and training resources to suppress the firearms trafficking to Mexico and stem the firearms-related violence on both sides of the border.

Firearms tracing, in particular the expansion of the eTrace firearms tracing system, is a critical component of Project Gunrunner in Mexico. ATF recently deployed eTrace technology in U.S. consulates in Monterrey, Hermosillo and Guadalajara, with six additional deployments to the remaining U.S. consulates in Mexico scheduled by March 2008. ATF has conducted discussions with the government of Mexico regarding the decentralization of the firearms tracing process to deploy Spanish-language eTrace to other Mexico agencies.

In the past two years, ATF has seized thousands of firearms headed to Mexico. Trends indicate the firearms illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border are becoming more powerful. ATF has analyzed firearms seizures in Mexico from FY 2005-07 and identified the following weapons most commonly used by drug traffickers:
· 9mm pistols;
· .38 Super pistols;
· 5.7mm pistols;
· .45-caliber pistols;
· AR-15 type rifles; and
· AK-47 type rifles.

- more -

Most of the firearms violence in Mexico is perpetrated by drug trafficking organizations (DTOs) who are vying for control of drug trafficking routes to the United States and engaging in turf battles for disputed distribution territories. Hundreds of Mexican citizens and law enforcement personnel have become casualties of the firearms-related violence. DTOs operating in Mexico rely on firearms suppliers to enforce and maintain their illicit narcotics operations. Intelligence indicates these criminal organizations have tasked their money laundering, distribution and transportation infrastructures reaching into the United States to acquire firearms and ammunition. These Mexican DTO infrastructures have become the leading gun trafficking organizations operating in the southwest U.S.

ATF has dedicated approximately 100 special agents and 25 industry operations investigators to the SWB initiative over the past two years. ATF has recently assigned special agents to Las Cruces, N.M., and Yuma, Ariz. These assignments are part of a broad plan to increase the strategic coverage and disrupt the firearms trafficking corridors operating along the border.

Cases referred for prosecution under Project Gunrunner.
FY 2006 Cases w/Defendants – 122 Defendants referred for prosecution- 306
FY 2007 Cases w/Defendants – 187 Defendants referred for prosecution- 465

Special agents have been deployed to Monterrey to support the work of the attachés in the ATF Mexico Office and assist Mexican authorities in their fight against firearms related violence. Three additional ATF intelligence research specialists and one investigative analyst are planned for the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC) to support Project Gunrunner, along with one intelligence research specialist in each of the four field divisions on the southwest border (Phoenix, Dallas, Houston and Los Angeles).

Firearm tracing intelligence is critical because it allows ATF and its partners to identify trafficking corridors, patterns and schemes as well as traffickers and their accomplices. Firearms tracing helps identify firearms straw purchasers, the traffickers, trafficking networks and patterns, thus allowing law enforcement to target and dismantle the infrastructure supplying firearms to the DTOs in Mexico.

ATF conducts firearms seminars with federal firearms licensees, commonly referred to as licensed gun dealers, to educate the firearms industry on straw purchasers and gun trafficking. More than 3,700 industry members attended outreach events in SWB divisions in FY 2007.

Waste of money, I'm sure. There just aren't any facts to support this spending ...

[X_Digger]

59. Nice dodge..

But this: "almost every gun fired in Mexico’s drug war comes from the U.S."

does not equal this: "More than 90 percent of the A.T.F.’s traces of guns seized in Mexico lead to the States"

What percentage of guns seized in mexico were traced via eTrace? 90% of how many? I'd like to see actual stats not press releases (I guess I'm looking for the MX version of our FBI stats tracing gun crime.)

And I still can't find a citation for the 2k/day claim.

[iverglas]

69. your rigour is admirable

I'll look forward to it being applied all over this forum.

Meanwhile, I'm still failing to take your point.

If only 25% of firearms used by drug traffickers in Mexico come from the US, is that okay? If it's only 1,000, or 247, or 15 guns a day crossing the border, is that okay?

Would there be some basis for a 25% estimate, or a 50% estimate, or a 10% estimate, or a 0.1% estimate, that would be better than the estimates to which you object?

If you want to know what the Mexican ambassador was basing his numbers on, I'm sure you can find an email address where you can send your question.

If you want to know what proportion of guns seized in Mexico are submitted to the ATF for tracing, I'll bet you can ask the ambassador that, too.

If you have some BASIS for actually CHALLENGING the estimates stated in the article, maybe you'll offer that up. So far, all I can see is some vague underlying allegation that the Mexican ambassador is lying, a journalist is lying, somebody somewhere is lying ...

[X_Digger]

70. A bald assertion is just that..

Especially one that's inflammatory (I'm assuming you highlighted those passages because you thought them worth noting.)

At this point, I can't find another source where the mexican ambassador mentioned the 2k/day figure, much less a source.

I didn't think the numbers important in and of themselves, you're the one who highlighted them. However, they are important for scope. Fighting a problem that results in 1% of MX's guns is very different than fighting a problem that results in 90% of MX's guns, wouldn't you agree? Response to a problem should be proportional, no?

[iverglas]

71. you see, they aren't bald assertions

They are statements by people whose credibility THERE IS NO REASON TO DOUBT, who are clearly familiar with their subject matter.

By your claimed standard, media reports of the assassination of John F Kennedy were bald assertions.


At this point, I can't find another source where the mexican ambassador mentioned the 2k/day figure, much less a source.

How sad for you. Have you found his email address yet?


Fighting a problem that results in 1% of MX's guns is very different than fighting a problem that results in 90% of MX's guns, wouldn't you agree? Response to a problem should be proportional, no?

So what's your point this time?

That the US "will provide Mexico with $1.4 billion in equipment and training over three years" just because it feels like spending a little money?

[X_Digger]

73. What's that smell?

Was that an argumentum ad verecundiam?

[iverglas]

76. Nope

It was a suggestion that if you want to challenge claims made, you offer up some basis for the challenge. Where there is nothing on the face of the claims to suggest that they are false, and the claims are quite consistent with the available evidence and not unreasonable in any way, something other than PROVE IT is usually advisable.

If you don't choose to believe a claim, that's entirely up to you, of course. But so far, all you have accomplished is to sound like a three-year-old who responds to every answer given by a parent by saying "but why, mummy?"


typo fixed

[X_Digger]

83. But why, mummy?

quite consistent with the available evidence

At this point, the only evidence to back up this claim is a secondhand account of what a government official said. (I can't verify that the MX Ambassador said this, much less find another source for the information.)

You said "And I suspect the Mexican Ambassador to the US has some kind of clue."

Then "They are statements by people whose credibility THERE IS NO REASON TO DOUBT"

Those two quotes I consider an appeal to authority.

Just because an astronaut tells you the moon is made of green cheese...?

[Tejas]

63. ah, still another article trying to slam perfectly legal activities

"... On the way back from Mexico, I stop at a gun show at a fairground in Phoenix. There are hundreds of people here, a cross section of America. ... I watch as a group of well-dressed men—Mexican nationals, judging from the license plate on their S.U.V.—buy thousands of AK-47 bullets without so much as presenting identification. ..."


So what?

[iverglas]

64. So what?

I'll give you three guesses.

I'll bet even you can come up with an answer.

[Tejas]

66. clue for yue

Arizona, not Illinois, no ID needed for ammo purchases.



Odd how the reporter claims he knew they were Mexican Nationals. Seeing as they showed no ID, he must have seen it tattoed on their foreheads.

[iverglas]

68. So what?

Arizona, not Illinois, no ID needed for ammo purchases.

So ... what?


Odd how the reporter claims he knew they were Mexican Nationals. Seeing as they showed no ID, he must have seen it tattoed on their foreheads.

Odd how, in TRUTH, difficult as it may be for you to recognize that, what he said was:

I watch as a group of well-dressed men—Mexican nationals, judging from the license plate on their S.U.V.

But don't let that stop you from saying something not true.

[Tejas]

72. ah, they must have used the drive-through-loophole

Yes iverglas, the reporter must have staked out the parking lot. Seeing MEXICANOMFGNATIONALS exiting their vehicle, he stealthfully followed them into the show and tailed them through the crowds and then witnessed them buying ammunition.

yeah, got it!

[jeepnstein]

75. It's illegal...

for them to take 7.62x39 ammo into Mexico. Military calibers are banned there. The Mexican police will probably have something to say about them buying ammo and crossing the border with it. Mexico has very tough gun laws.

[iverglas]

78. .

[iverglas]

77. actually

I would suspect that he observed them buying the ammunitiion and then followed them to their car and observed the licence plate.

But you could be right.

Er ... so what?

[Tejas]

79. OMFG, Mexicans with BULLETS, let's follow them!!!!1!!1!

I would suspect that he observed them buying the ammunitiion and then followed them to their car and observed the licence plate.





1) sees people
2) bases suspicions on ethnicity
3) follows them.

Hmm, I don't know how y'all do things in Canada but that right there is so full of fail.......

[iverglas]

80. I guess you'll have to explain

I don't have a clue what you're on about.

[Tejas]

85. It's called "Racial Profiling" (and done by an ambulance-chasing reporter) nt

[iverglas]

86. and you don't do it?

How many white men in this forum are married to women of colour? How many white men in this forum have a best friend who is not white?

It is not illegal for a member of the public to engage in "racial profiling" in going about his/her personal business. It is not illegal for you to cross the street when you see someone coming toward you whom you do not wish to encounter, because of his/her sex or race or anything else.

Racial profiling is impermissible when it is used by an agent of the state to make decisions or take actions that affect individuals. Journalists are not agents of the state, and this journalist's decision and actions did not affect the individuals in question.

Observing a group of well-dressed men speaking Spanish and buying a large quantity of ammunition in an unregulated envirionment in a location in the US near the border, in circumstances in which it is known that weapons and ammunition are regularly trafficked across that border in exchange for narcotics, and deciding to observe them further is not "racial profiling". It is investigative journalism.

And obviously, given the straw purchasing known to occur in those circumstances, the journalist did not base his decision/actions solely on the ethnicity or suspected nationality of the individuals in question anyway. The set of circumstances he observed was one of several in which he would plainly have investigated further.

It seems rather obvious that you're just not happy about investigative journalists doing their job in this situation.

[gorfle]

65. Precisely.

Gosh, it's just so terrible that people can actually buy ammunition!

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

81. damn, I seem to have missed something

I don't recall having thought the comment worthy of comment myself, so it must have been somebody else's effort ...

[Tejas]

84. "I don't recall having thought" - apparently not

Some reporters will add color to articles, but to throw crap like the aforementioned in is not journalism, it's simple tabloid trash at best. If you don't recognize it as such, then we'll just have to disagree (imagine that).

[iverglas]

87. you really do need to figure out how "reply" works

Perhaps you intended to address post 86?