Gays and Guns - Southern Voice article today

[HillWilliam]

I'm always a little surprised when people are surprised that there are LGBT people who are just as interested in exercising their 2A rights as anyone else. There are several LGBT-centric Second-Amendment organizations, perhaps one of the oldest and best-known is the Pink Pistols. An article in today's Southern Voice interviews some members from Atlanta's chapter.

From Gays and Guns
Atlanta’s Pink Pistols aim for acceptance in a community often opposed to firearms

By DYANA BAGBY
DEC. 19, 2008
Mark Nichols distinctly remembers being in his gym’s empty parking lot at night when a man who had followed him out after his workout started shouting anti-gay epithets at him.

“He told me he was sick of faggots being in the gym,” said Nichols, 48, of Atlanta.

What kept Nichols calm was the handgun he kept in his gym bag that he was legally entitled to carry with a permit.

“The guy wanted to beat me up. I told him he was making a mistake. I just told him that. I had no concern I was going to get hurt. And the guy left me alone,” he said.

Nichols never pulled out his gun, but apparently the would-be gay basher picked up a vibe. And that’s all Nichols wanted to do, he said to let the angry man who had just called him a “faggot” know he wasn’t going to back down and that he was ready to defend himself.

Violence against LGBTQ people, admittedly, is still a problem. Two brothers in New York were assaulted and one just died just for being mistaken as gay. Having been assaulted, beer-bottles thrown at me, and had other occurrences just while minding my own damned business, the upswing in assaults against LGBTQ folks isn't comforting to me. In the south, it has never been -- and still isn't -- entirely safe to be gay on the best of days.

Historically, we cannot count on LEO, and all too often if law enforcement would have been sympathetic, they're often too late. I've never seen a great show of hands of folks willing to ride around with us to protect us by "other, non-violent means". It's up to our own selves to deal the best way we see fit.

As for me, while it's rare that I feel the need to carry, I do appreciate the equalization a CCH permit and my 380 give me.

[Jamastiene]

1. Kicking and Recommending for our 2A rights.

They won't bestow us rights? We take our rights into our own hands and defend ourselves. Maybe they'll back the fuck off of us if they know they'll actually get a gay person who will fight them back.

:kick:

[iverglas]

2. do keep up

These Pink Pistols have been outed as a complete right-wing scam so many times in this forum it makes one's head spin.

Why does anyone want to keep citing an arm of the right-wing Libertarian Party for any purpose at Democratic Underground??

[Tejas]

37. "Pink Pistols have been outed as a complete right-wing scam" - so, they're not really gay?

Links would do wonders.

[iverglas]

43. I give up

"Pink Pistols have been outed as a complete right-wing scam" - so, they're not really gay?

Did someone say they weren't?


Links would do wonders.

So would a little thing called doing your own research.

You got a gold star?

Search this site.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. I've heard that meme before...most of us know thats BS

Anymore than Planned Parenthood is eugenicist

[iverglas]

51. you "know" what you please

I'm quite aware of what most of you "know".

The facts are independent of your recognition of them. And the facts about this front for right-wing "libertarianism" are the facts.

Maybe instead of calling facts "memes" you could look a few up for yourself. Doesn't really matter to me one way or the other.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. You are not aware of what know

Many organizations out grow their founder and roots. Margaret Sanger believed some pretty horrible stuff, but I do not hold that against Planned Parenthood.

Pink Pistols is a gay oriented shooting organization today. Since you could not have any practical experience with them, your knowledge about them is inherently limited.

[iverglas]

54. fascinating

Margaret Sanger believed some pretty horrible stuff

that someone chooses to drag this tired, ugly, false right-wing meme in here.


Pink Pistols is a gay oriented shooting organization today. Since you could not have any practical experience with them, your knowledge about them is inherently limited.

Pink Pistols is a right-wing Libertarian organization today. I don't need "practical experience" with rattlesnakes to know their bite is nasty.

[derby378]

3. There's also Stonewall Shooting Sports of Utah

See that? Utah. It can be done, people.

[iverglas]

24. indeed there is

http://www.stonewallshootingsportsutah.org/

with that prominent JOIN NRA link.

The NRA, leading advocate of GLBT rights ...

Of course, there is that endorsement from Ted Nugent.

[iverglas]

4. btw

"Atlanta’s Pink Pistols aim for acceptance in a community often opposed to firearms"

The Pink Pistols have NEVER aimed for accceptance in the GLBT community.

They are provocateurs for the right wing, and nothing else.

[DonEBrook]

6. I will assume you are being sarcastic. Because the alternative is most unflattering.

...

[iverglas]

10. what does that mean?

"Sarcastic"? Can you tell me what reading of what I said suggests sarcasm? Can't see it, myself.

[DonEBrook]

16. I can't see it either.

...

[HillWilliam]

8. Whether or not they're aiming for acceptance

is moot to the point of my post. The point is that there are gay people who do carry.

I'm not a member of the Pink Pistols, nor was there any endorsement of them.

It's just an article, geez.

[iverglas]

11. big whoop

The point is that there are gay people who do carry.

I'm sure there are short people and tall people and male people and female people and light people and dark people and fat people and skinny people who carry firearms around.

So?

This was a point?



html fixed

[DonEBrook]

18. Is there an epidemic of thugs assaulting skinny people that I haven't heard about?

Sounds like Darfur.

[iverglas]

21. I give up

I replied to a post that said:

The point is that there are gay people who do carry.

Perhaps your monitor shows you something else.

[DonEBrook]

5. Always remember: When seconds count, the Police can be there

in just minutes.

[iverglas]

12. and never forget

that you need to carry a gun because a police officer is too heavy.

Do they ever tire of mouthing these tired and meaningless talking points?

Apparently not.

[DonEBrook]

19. You probably should not smoke that stuff.

...

[JonQ]

7. Good

the 2A tends to disproportionately benefit those most often targeted for violence. Homosexuals, women, minorities, etc. Denying individuals the right to self-defense is a boon for those seeking to commit violence against individuals (obviously). It's amazing how many on here would deny these people the right to protect themselves from violence.

[HillWilliam]

9. Exactly

if I can't marry, at least I can still carry.

[Statistical]

47. Nice one (n/t)

[DeadEyeDyck]

48. I'm straight but I like that line...

[iverglas]

13. got some evidence?

the 2A tends to disproportionately benefit those most often targeted for violence.

Some evidence of BENEFITS? Actual, real benefits, going disproportionately to these groups?

I can sure show you evidence of disproportionate HARMS to members of these groups committed with firearms ...

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

22. Here's some advice for free

Speak when spoken to.

Or if you must reply to things said to other people, at least try to actually reply.

There's a question on the table there. Wanna answer it?

Didn't think so.

[rl6214]

53. Let's see, I think you posted this a little higher up

Links would do wonders.

So would a little thing called doing your own research.

You got a gold star?

Search this site.

[iverglas]

14. what's truly amazing

It's amazing how many on here would deny these people the right to protect themselves from violence.

is how you actually believe you can get away with making false statements like these.

The idea that you would actually think it decent to make them, well, that boggles the mind.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JonQ]

17. Hmm

and the guy in this story had a gun, in public. Which you have previously labeled all such people "complete fucking assholes". Will you continue to stand by this? And if the alternative was this guy was beaten severely, would you still advocate he be forcibly disarmed by the government?

No, I don't really expect you to give any real answers to these questions. I suspect even you are embarrassed by what you'd have to defend if you ever honestly answered a question about gun control. So go ahead and throw in some nonsensical personal attack, or claim it's a strawman argument to directly refer to your quotes or whatever other nonsense you care to spout.

[iverglas]

23. yes indeedy

and the guy in this story had a gun, in public. Which you have previously labeled all such people "complete fucking assholes". Will you continue to stand by this?

Of course, the important evidence of his assholery is that he is part of Pink Pistols. Assholes all.

Here's what the story actually said:

Nichols never pulled out his gun, but apparently the would-be gay basher picked up a vibe. And that’s all Nichols wanted to do, he said to let the angry man who had just called him a “faggot” know he wasn’t going to back down and that he was ready to defend himself.

So, guns give off vibes, do they?

Imagine if a firearms control advocate said that ...

Or can some people only stand up for themselves if they have a pistol nearby?


So go ahead and throw in some nonsensical personal attack

I don't believe I'm the one who has just had a whole series of putrid personal attacks deleted, chummy.

But maybe you could find one I've posted, so you have some tiny shred of something to back up your own filth.

[JonQ]

25. You labeled one woman

who owned a firearm, with no further evidence, a complete fucking asshole. I'd call that a personal attack. Don't you?

And yes, I'd say having the ability to defend yourself makes it easier to stand up for yourself.

[iverglas]

26. was she a blonde?

You labeled one woman who owned a firearm, with no further evidence, a complete fucking asshole. I'd call that a personal attack. Don't you?

If so, you would have to say that I labeled one woman who was a blonde, with no further evidence, a complete fucking asshole. And I have no doubt at all that you would.

Except, of course, I didn't do that.

I called a person who wore a firearm to a children's sports event a complete fucking asshole.

[gorfle]

27. Guns and vibes.

So, guns give off vibes, do they?

No, but the person carrying it certainly can. If we are to believe the story as related, and I don't doubt it, the fellow carrying the firearm obviously felt completely secure in his ability to handle the situation should it escalate, and his would-be attacker picked up on that confidence and it gave him pause.

I have been in many sporting fights. And I can tell you with absolute certainty, confidence is obvious and unsettling in an opponent. In fact, I would say that in such fights the mental aspect of the situation is almost as important as martial skill.

[8Kilo1]

28. Ridiculous

If you need a gun to give you confidence, you have deep psychological problems.

Think about it. Let's say we remove guns from the equation, for a moment. If I were to say that because I own a Mercedes Benz, I feel more confident or more sexy or more successful--there'd be plenty of people who would rightly snicker at such a comment. Were I to say that owning a pair of Ecco shoes makes me more confident or smarter--I deserve to be laughed at.

Yet, this is precisely what you're claiming. Of course, many gun manufacturers market their products knowing some people think they can buy confidence or self-esteem.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Asinine.

Do you actually think it's impossible that someone who receives training in how to defend themselves might carry his or herself more confidently after having received such training? Do you think criminals seek out strong confident looking people to target as victims? There is an elderly poster here that is confined to a wheelchair who carries a firearm to protect himself, do you think he has deep psychological problems?

David

[8Kilo1]

30. Absurd

Most gunowners don't receive any training except for what they see on TV or the movies. That fact makes them a danger to themselves and others.

Do you think criminals seek out strong confident looking people to target as victims?

They seek out people who appear to have what they want..money, jewelry, etc. They particularly desire guns.

One of the great fallacies, perpetuated by TV and movies, is the idea a criminal is going to approach from a block away with obvious intentions. Doesn't happen. A criminal will take you by surprise. He doesn't want a fight or altercation, he wants your possessions. So, it's a myth that you're going to be able to bring your gun into the scenario.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. Source?

"Most gunowners don't receive any training except for what they see on TV or the movies."

I'm not aware of any peer reviewed study that shows any such thing.

The rest of your assertions are completely untrue, stem to stern. Property theft is often conducted when you are not there at all. There is no confrontation. For actual confrontations, simple, aggravated assault, and rape are far FAR more numerous (~4x) than simple robberies.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cv06.pdf

For criminals that get into physical assault, they apparently want much more than just your 'possessions'.

Will carrying a firearm insulate against all these crimes? I would say no. I recently had a co-worker murdered by her husband, at close range with a firearm in an ambush in a parking lot. She could have been carrying all the guns in the world, and it wouldn't have done her any good at all. I do carry, myself. I consider it a personal choice. I know it can't save me from every possibility, but the chance it might come in handy outweighs the burden of licensing it, practicing with it, and carrying it. When you actually need one, nothing else will do.

[8Kilo1]

35. See No Evil

I'm not aware of any peer reviewed study that shows any such thing.

Of course. If you don't bother to look, you're sure not to find them.

I'd suggest starting with:

Hemenway D, Solnick SJ, Azrael DR. Firearm training and storage. JAMA. 1995;273 :46 –50;

There are many others as well. But the fact remains--there are no federal laws which require a would-be gunowner to demonstrate any competency or show any training documentation in order to purchase a firearm. And few states or loca jurisdictions require them either.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. You said most gun owners.

56% receiving formal training, or rather 44% of gun owners NOT having formal training, per your source you just listed, is not 'most'.

Ownership, with a couple exceptions, does not require training, but many states do for a concealed weapons permit. Not all, my home state does not, and requirements vary greatly from state to state.

We don't have a huge problem with CPL holders shooting up the place. The last one I can think of happened at the Seattle Folklife festival, and the guy was a dirtbag, who perjured himself on his application. Illegal drug use is a disqualification, but he was a recovering heroin user. He got into an altercation, and apparently in attempting to 'defend himself' he fired a single shot that hit a woman in the face, another guy in the arm or something, and stuck in another guy's leg. So yeah, bad example, scumbag, liar, and he did fire one wild shot. Beyond that, just hasn't been much of a problem in this state, even though we have no training requirement.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. Surely you realize we are talking about concealed carry permit holders?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Surely you realize we are talking about concealed carry permit holders?

If you could tell us which states hand out concealed carry permits without training it would help.

David

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Washington State

N/t

[gorfle]

46. And yet many people do.

Most gunowners don't receive any training except for what they see on TV or the movies. That fact makes them a danger to themselves and others.

I'd love to see some data to back up this assertion.

All the gun owners I know enjoy shooting and do it as often as they can. I myself have invested hundreds upon hundreds of hours and several thousand rounds of ammunition in training.

One of the great fallacies, perpetuated by TV and movies, is the idea a criminal is going to approach from a block away with obvious intentions. Doesn't happen. A criminal will take you by surprise. He doesn't want a fight or altercation, he wants your possessions. So, it's a myth that you're going to be able to bring your gun into the scenario.

The fact that there are many examples of people who have successfully brought their gun into the scenario proves that it is not a myth.

[gorfle]

45. Thanks for proving my point.

If you need a gun to give you confidence, you have deep psychological problems.

Think about it. Let's say we remove guns from the equation, for a moment. If I were to say that because I own a Mercedes Benz, I feel more confident or more sexy or more successful--there'd be plenty of people who would rightly snicker at such a comment. Were I to say that owning a pair of Ecco shoes makes me more confident or smarter--I deserve to be laughed at.

Yet, this is precisely what you're claiming. Of course, many gun manufacturers market their products knowing some people think they can buy confidence or self-esteem.

Many people do, in fact, base their car-buying decisions on things like safety ratings, and in fact they probably do feel more confident knowing they are driving a safer car. Who would snicker at that?

If the shoes you mention actually provide some actual benefit (other than a logo), then they, too, might inspire confidence in the wearer, just as the newly-designed Olympic swimsuits, which have resulted in many records being broken, might inspire confidence in the wearer knowing they are wearing the most cutting-edge swimwear technology available.

The fact of the matter is man is at a natural disadvantage to his environment in nearly every way, and taking advantage of the tools available to our species does impart advantages to us that we would otherwise not have, and this inspires confidence.

[rrneck]

31. As a matter of fact

guns do give off vibes.

The knowledge that a potential victim is able to defend themselves against an attacker is a powerful deterrent. Unfortunately, it is also a bad vibe to have in a lot of places like universities.

That should prompt a lot of incoming rotten fruits and vegetables from both sides of the debate. :)

[AtheistCrusader]

33. I don't know that I've ever bought into that...

Carrying yourself with confidence and purpose seems to discourage neer-do-well's just fine. I don't know that a firearm is required for that. A firearm may help in a bad situation, but it really shouldn't affect your demeanor. Your self-confidence should not be dependent upon it.

[rrneck]

36. You're right on that part of it and it has helped me in the past,

but I was thinking about the awareness in the mind of the prospective assailant. A large part of the tactical advantage of concealed carry is that the bad guys can never be absolutely sure who actually has a gun. It's not such a bad idea that they are thinking that if they pick door number three it's their ass.

While self confidence can indeed go a long way, it helps a lot less in the face of someone who has spent one half their life incarcerated (where intimidation is a finely honed art) and the other half preying on people for a living. And he may have friends, which creates the pack instinct so favored by skinheads etc. But I'm very hesitant to stray too far down hypothetical lane. Your point is well taken.

[Tejas]

38. Then feel free to state you have no problem with LGBT carry.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tejas]

39. The perp should be banned from that gym

No sense in Nichols having to tolerate any such instances in the future, hopefully he reported the incident to authorities. Best to have a record of it.

[DeadEyeDyck]

49. I fly into ATL late at night

on a regular basis since my company is too cheap to pay full fare. For those that don't know, ATL off field parking is ina pretty rough area of town. My girldfriend always packs when she picks me up. If I was gay, I can't imagine not packing. In some areas down here; being gay is like wearing a bullseye on your back. I would want a fighting chance.

[dusmcj]

55. rockin'! best wishes and good shooting !

this is the kind of story that works wonders against the common enemies, dogmatism and agenda fixations. Rather, people in touch with life's realities and dealing with them practically and positively

Cheers !