DU members ...do you own a gun for protection and what kind and caliber is it?

[L0oniX]

My wife expressed her concern over recent home invasions here where people have been murdered. She and I agreed that in addition to our home security system with Brinks that a gun would be the last resort for protection. We have no children here at our home. Our bedroom door is about 70 feet from the front door. We decided that we should purchase a gun for self defense protection and keep it in our bedroom within easy reach. We both are taking CCW courses so we will be fully trained in proper handling. In addition to home protection I plan to carry it with me when we go camping.

I talked with a professional instructor at a gun store who also works for the local police department as to what gun would be the best choice for our purposes. He pulled out his concealed gun to show me what his choice was and explained why he chose that one. He mentioned that if we called 911 that it would take at least 15 minutes for the police to arrive. He said that most defensive actions with a gun occur within 8 feet of an intruder and there was no good reason to use something with a long barrel. I had been thinking Glock 17. He told me that you would want a gun that requires little preparation for immediate use. I had planned to NOT keep one in the chamber. He suggested that since it would most likely be night time and dark when the gun would be needed that a flashlight would take time to grab and turn on and point. I had not considered that either.

He told me that before he had decided on this particular gun that he had a change of mind over an occurrence. One night he heard a loud noise and reached over to grab his police issue Glock 17 off the end table and suddenly realized that it could have gone off when he grabbed it because he kept it loaded with one in the chamber and the safety off. So he changed to the gun he was showing me and now he suggests that one to everyone who needs a self defense weapon.

The gun was a Smith and Wesson 38 model 642 J frame with a lazer light grip and with the snag-free enclosed hammer. When I saw it and brought my wife to look at one we considered the advantages and I bought one. With a lazer, aiming was easy and could be seen in the dark. With no hammer it can be carried in a pants pocket. Since it is a revolver there are no additional actions needed to use it. Just pick it up and the lazer comes on automatically ...and pull the trigger.

If someone has the guts to break in the front door and come to our back bedroom and come through that door they are going to get shot ...period! I will protect my wife and myself but I am totally against war and against the military. Call me a hypocrite but the thought of some dudes raping and killing my wife is ...well I am just not going to let that happen. The owner of the gun store said that there was such a demand for guns right now due to the fact that so many are losing their jobs and many in desperation will start to break into homes or rob people in public.

So tell me what would you do? Do you own a gun for protection? Are you against the wars? Am I the only seemingly hypocrite about killing?

[Taverner]

1. I'm all for the right to own a gun or ten

I just don't want one until I need it

[Sub Atomic]

39. But if you find yourself in a position that you need one

then you have waited too long.

[Taverner]

42. Yes but I literally don't want one

And I don't think it has come to the point in our country that you need one in your house.

But if you think you need one, by all means get one. And I support your right to do so.

[Sub Atomic]

50. I hope the day never comes where you need to use a firearm to protect yourself.

I hope that day never comes for me, either.

But I do own a .38 and a .357. I fire them regularly and they are both kept loaded.

I live alone so there's no fear of a child accidentally finding them.

[Taverner]

56. Yes I have two kids

One reason for me to delay the purchase

But even when they're grown, I don't see a need - - Yet...

It all depends on how things unfold the next decade I guess...

[Statistical]

57. They do make quick open gun safes.... google "Gun Vault" (n/t)

[Taverner]

75. I'll keep that in mind should I feel the need to get one

Thankfully, that need isn't there yet

[bigbadwolf]

272. Good advice

for anyone with kids.

I had one of those small electronic gun safes bolted to a shelf next to the bed. Practice pushing the buttons blindfolded and you will quickly learn how to do it in the dark in just seconds. The door springs open and your gun is instantly available, yet safe from kids. Had a little tactical flashlight in there, too.

I don't like keyed strong boxes. Too easy to lose the key, or, if you have it hidden nearby, too easy for curious kids to find. The electronic models do have a key backup switch, but that can be stored well away from the safe since they are not intended for immediate access.

What if the batteries inside go bad? They have two metal contacts on the outside of the safe. Press a 9 v battery against them, and the safe will open when you press the combo--then replace the internal batteries. Mine uses AA batteries. I used Energizer lithium batteries. They will last almost forever.

Curious kids? The safe will beep an alarm after three incorrect combo entries. Only way to shut it off is to enter the correct combo.

All this for about 50 bucks. A good investment in safety.

[L0oniX]

63. My dad and Boy Scouts is where I got most of my training. Never had a problem.

Yes ...Boy Scouts had a gunnery merit badge back then. My dad and grandfather and 4 uncles all were hunters. One became a police captain.

[Floyd_Droid]

256. Re: I'm all for the right to own a gun or ten

My philosophy is quite the contrary:

I WOULD RATHER HAVE IT AND NOT NEED IT.... RATHER THAN NEED IT AND NOT HAVE IT

Because you just can't say to the bad guy:

"Hey, wait right there... so I can go buy a gun and ammo. I'll BRB"

[TahitiNut]

2. Shotgun .. 12 gauge .. single shot.

I intend to 'upgrade' to a camper/security pump shotgun. Some day.

[L0oniX]

6. That will be kinda hard to grab and defend yourself quickly if you are in bed.

[S_B_Jackson]

163. Why would you think that?

We too use a 12 gauge shotgun as our primary home defense weapon. It's loaded with 00 buck, and is mounted under the rails of my bed by a couple of rare-earth magnets. I don't think a pistol would be more accessible or quicker. And the dogs will give us sufficient notice of an intruder...

[Abq_Sarah]

241. Not at all

I have a 20 gauge against the wall just behind the headboard of my bed.

I can grab and load it in seconds.

[YOY]

3. A simple .22.

Does anyone need more than that really?

[spin]

164. A lot of people get killed by ..22 caliber weapons...

Unfortunately for self defense purposes, many die the next day.

Most self defense experts recommend a larger caliber weapon.

There are certain kinds of handguns and ammunition that you should avoid using for self-defense purposes. In general, you want to avoid overly small and also overly powerful ammunition for a number of reasons, with some exceptions.

This means that the .22 and .25 caliber rounds are out, unless you have a physical problem that prevents you from shooting anything more powerful. .22's are far too small, and .25's are far too weak! The latter is also regarded as a traditional "ladies' weapon," as well -- of course, the weakest of all handguns with the least stopping power is considered the ideal handgun for the most uniformly victimized segment of society. Bleah. Ignore the useless .25 caliber, along with any other weapon that is solemnly recommended to you based on your double X chromosomes. Your sex has nothing to do with the right handgun for you.
http://www.io.com/~cortese/firearms/index.html

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

175. While I agree, the accuracy can overcome the lack of mass.

I like to shoot golf balls consistently out to 10 or 15 yards with a .22, I'd say that 4 or 5 rounds in the face would sufficiently deter if not kill someone.

David

[spin]

180. Shot placement makes the big difference...

despite the caliber. Head shots with a small caliber weapon can be very effective. It's probably the best target to shoot for with a .22.

However, most police officers are trained to shoot for center body mass. The head moves quicker than the body and is therefore a more difficult target. Under the stress of a real shooting most shooters suffer diminished ability. Adrenaline can interfere with a persons ability to accurately fire a weapon. You may be a dead eye shooter on the range and miss most or all of your shots in a real gunfight. Better to shoot for the largest target since your chances of a hit are better.

A .22 does a lot of injury to a body as it tends to bounce around a lot damaging a lot of internal organs. A larger caliber weapon tends to penetrate in more of a straight line and with deeper penetration might hit something vital that could stop the attack. I once read of an individual who was shot with 10 .22 caliber bullets by his wife and drove to the police station to file a complaint. He died the next day.

Of course, I've also read reports of a person who was shot multiple times with a larger caliber weapon and continued to fight. Even the legendary .45 can fail to stop an individual, especially one high on drugs. Some studies show that a 125 grain .357 magnum bullet has the best one shot stop percentage of commonly used handgun calibers.

This link leads to a chart comparing one shot percentages for different calibers.


Some information can be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power
http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm

An argument against some of the info on the above links:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

Since you post as Fire_Medic_Dave, I will assume that you might have some experience with gun shot wounds. I would be interested in hearing your observations. My own experience is merely research and talking to police officers.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

182. My perspective.

I have a friend who was shot 7 times in the back and 3 times in the head with a 9mm. He lost one eye other than that he's fine. I had another friend who was shot in the face from 10 feet with a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot got up turned to run and was shot in the back. He lost parts of 2 fingers and still has a piece of buckshot you can see on his jawline. Clearly they both were very fortunate to live in areas with good EMS services and a Level 1 Trauma Center. The first was old, the second was very young. If I've learned anything it's that when your time is up, it's up. When it's not it doesn't matter what happened to you. Personal observations, I would far rather be shot than stabbed. People who are shot center mass usually fair very poorly. Head shots are funny things I've seen an 18 year old shot in the forehead at point blank range, the bullet bounced off and left a laceration that was easily covered by a very small bandaid. He refused treatment and transport, which was fine because he didn't need anything besides the bandaid. People on drugs are anyones guess, I will say though once they go down they expire very quickly probably do to massive blood loss from the increased blood pressure and heart rate. Never quit fighting no matter how badly you are injured, never let yourself think that you might die. Some of the people I have treated that should have died several times over just seemed to refuse to die. Physiologically I know that makes no sense. I have seen the results of what happens to victims who are taken to a secondary crime scene and no matter what you are armed with man or woman you better fight to your last breath before you allow that to happen. Lastly none of the dozens of fatal gunshot wounds that I have seen were inflicted with legally owned firearms. I'm sure you know much of this. These are just some of the things from what will be 20 years of experience in a few months. Something you might find interesting go to this link http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/vietnam-a-l.html and read the write up for Roy Benavidez.

David

[tburnsten]

198. Reminds of Jim Cirillo's story

About a time him and his two colleagues were on a stakeout, and his two friends were surprised at extremely short range by the criminal they had been waiting for, who was armed (turns out it was a starter pistol or something) and fired a shot at one of his two friends, the two of them reacted by planting eleven (a S&W J-frame and a Colt Detective or whatever the J-frame equivalent is) .38 Special slugs into his head at nearly contact distance. While they were combing through his friends' absurdly thick belly hair looking for the wound they thought he suffered, the criminal started coughing and getting up. The slow, round-nosed .38 slugs had just skittered around his skull all eleven times, leaving him with no life-threatening injuries. Talk about a lucky break.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

211. Two of the rounds entered my friends skull.

Multiple holes in both lungs, liver, intestines. It is kind of funny that we call them lucky isn't it.

David

[tburnsten]

213. Yes, kind of sad as well

But sustaining wounds that severe and surviving, the only word I can think of is fortunate.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

214. I play poker with him all the time his ass is lucky.

[spin]

202. Wow, the Roy Benavidez. story is anazing...

I found your observations back up what I've heard and read through the years.

I also agree that I would rather be shot than stabbed.

[bigbadwolf]

271. Quick stopping is the goal

You are correct. Remember, Reagan was shot with a .22 and had a fairly serious wound, but at first he didn't even realize he had been shot.

You should only shoot someone if you *need* to stop them *right now* to protect your life and limb or that of others. "Right now" means, no way getting around it, pretty massive trauma. You need a large, fast moving bullet that will expand and dump energy in the target without penetrating it. This is the subject of endless debate among the gun community, but most would say nothing less than 9mm or .38 with premium personal protection hollow point ammo. You can go up from there, .40, .45, .357, 10 mm, etc.

A shotgun or rifle is effective, but can be very unwieldy or over-penetrative in a home situation.

[jmg257]

203. If they're hunting squirrels? No.

For defense though, one can do a lot better.

[whistle]

4. No

[slackmaster]

5. I own more than 50 functional firearms, and keep zero of them deployed for self-defense

I live in a good neighborhood.

With training, and no children or other untrained people in the house, a revolver makes an excellent self-defense weapon. They're pretty much foolproof.

Please make sure you understand your state's laws concerning use of deadly force, and practice shooting for center of mass.

:hi:

[L0oniX]

7. O yea Florida is rather lax and we are going to practice at a local range.

CCW is easy to get here too.

[spin]

165. I would describe Florida laws as reasonable, not lax. (n/t)

[guntard]

248. Interesting; I have over 100 firearms and none for self defense

I thought I was virtually alone in that regard, but it is very interesting to read that Slackmaster is in the same category.

Keeping guns for self defense is precisely like insurance - you are insuring against something that you hope never occurs. It is no more "paranoid" than buying fire insurance (and in many places, one is far more likely to need "assault insurance" than fire insurance). Some people believe it is prudent to buy this insurance, by arming themselves. Others do not. I have never understood how that could be controversial.

I like guns, for many reasons, mostly aesthetic. I collect them. I even design them. I am in the firearms business. I am surrounded by guns. I am extremely comfortable with them.

But I am not comfortable with shooting a person in my home or office, except in a very limited set of circumstances, the likelihood of which I have made a personal calculation as being very, very remote. If someone broke into my home while I was there, the chances are it would be one of my neighbors' kids, and I do not want to shoot any of my neighbors' kids. The scenarios for needing a gun are more likely at my office, but I have to weigh that against the inconvenience (and danger) of keeping a loaded gun around where we are working with so many unloaded ones.

So I don't keep any guns handy for self protection.

Ironically, by my own calculations, I am far more likely to need to protect myself when I am away from home or from my office, and this is precisely where the state and the county prohibits me from legally carrying a weapon for self defense.

Dumb laws.

BTW, back onto the thread subject, if I did keep guns for self defense, I would have a 12 gauge pump shotgun, a Remington 870, at home loaded with 00 buckshot. Long guns are far more effective than handguns for home defense, and shotguns are better than rifles for a variety of reasons. Handguns should always be considered secondary weapons and employed only as a last resort or where space considerations preclude the use of a long gun.

If I had a CCW, I'd keep a .357 Magnum revolver under the driver's seat in my car. I probably wouldn't carry a gun on my person for any reason, but if I did it would be a Smith & Wesson Model 640 in a waistband hip holster with untucked long sleeve shirt worn as a sort of light jacket (Southern California).

It's still really hard to imagine scenarios, in my daily life, where I would want to deploy such a thing.

[riqster]

8. 12-gauge shotgun

No WAY you're gonna miss miss your target. Handy for coyotes, too.

[L0oniX]

10. That's hardly a self defense weapon IMO. How quickly can you grab it and be ready from your bed?

[riqster]

142. I have an alarm, so I will have a few moments warning

...plus, I live in a rural area, and would probably be forewarned by the neighbors' dogs in any event.

[AtheistCrusader]

144. In about the same amount of time it takes for the confusion of sleep to clear from my head.

Which is around 1-2 seconds.

Careful not to get too dependent on the laser sight. Murphy will always win, the second you NEED that gun, the laser will be blocked by a fluff of lint, or the battery will die, or the diode will die, etc.

[Ready4Change]

242. It has advantages.

One is that if it's loaded with bird shot it won't penetrate the walls of your house and enter your neighbors.

(Your results may vary depending on what ammo you use and what your houses are made of.)

You do still have to aim it, but it is more forgiving of mis-aiming than a handgun or rifle.

If it's a pump shotgun, the sound of pumping in the first round in prep of firing can be a deterent all in itself. Lets the person on the other side of the door know that you are indeed armed and ready.

[Furyataurus]

274. Not

to mention they have a couple of seconds to either "duck" or start running the other way before they are turned into hamburger.

[ManiacJoe]

148. That is a common misconception about shotguns.

In reality they do need to be aimed. From an 18 inch barrel 12ga 00 buck shot only spreads about 1 inch per yard traveled.

[spin]

166. People usually get firearm info from movies...

In the movies you can do a lot of really impressive shooting with a shotgun. All you have to do is point it in the general direction of whatever you want to hit and pull the trigger.

Real life is unforgiving. Yes, Mary, you can miss your target at close range with a shotgun if you don't aim.

[guntard]

249. Yes, but the longer sight radius of any long gun makes it easier and faster to aim than a handgun

This is the main reason a shotgun is a superior home defense weapon.

Handguns are damnably difficult to shoot accurately, especially in high adrenaline situations.

[ManiacJoe]

252. Absolutely.

I was just pointing out that even shotguns need to be aimed if you wish to hit your target.

[cosmik debris]

9. If I needed a fire arm for home defense,

I'd move to another neighborhood.

The peace of mind is worth it.

[L0oniX]

12. This home is paid for and it is not easy to sell any house right now.

The job location and keeping the job is also a consideration.

[DesertFlower]

108. i live in a "upscale" safe neighborhood.

so did sharon tate.

some people can't afford to move. neighborhoods change and now with the housing market, you can't just sell your house and move somewhere else.

[Floyd_Droid]

260. Re: i live in a "upscale" safe neighborhood.

I Agree.

Also think about it... Robbers tend to love "upscale safe neighborhoods" for a couple of good reasons:

1- That is where the money is at
2- Most likely the people are under the delusion of being 'safe' and most likely WON'T be armed.

[SheilaT]

11. No. Don't own any guns

and have no intention of buying one. My neighborhood is probably as safe as any neighborhood is -- bad things can and do happen anywhere. But I feel absolutely no need to own a gun myself.

If you do go ahead and get one, I hope you will take whatever gun safety and usage courses are available to you.

[L0oniX]

13. The instructor for the police department will be giving us CCW lessons.

I am sure he is qualified.

[Fabio]

255. Dont get a glock, get an XD

Infrequent shooters will benefit from the gun's grip safety and indicator on the back of the slide which indicates the gun is charged. If it is for you and your wife, go for a 9mm.

[plantwomyn]

267. 20 gauge pump shotgun in the living room

and a 9mm XD subcompact in the bedroom. Just traded a S&W for the XD. Love it. Very light and accurate.
Your load on the shootgun is important too. #4 first, 00 next, slug third for idiots that won't stop until they're dead. Practice 3 shots fast and accurate. 6 seconds from warning shots to deadly force.

[Poll_Blind]

14. Very inexpensive and very good for home defense: A pump shotgun. Why? Well...

...every human being almost all over the world can clearly identify the sound that a pump shotgun makes as the action is being worked, even on the other side of a door. It is very loud and has a certain "Chik-CHIK" sound that immediately reminds those hearing it that A) it requires almost no aim whatsoever and B) that the door they are on the other side of is no barrier, whatsoever, to the shotgun pellets. It also, if time permits, reminds the intruder that the owner of the house is willing to tear up a wall or a door with the shot in their own home, just to stop an intruder.

  And one last thing- as opposed to some other weapons it is far less likely that the round will continue through one or more walls or windows after being fired and potentially injure or kill an innocent outside the home.

  It is a very solid weapon for most home defense purposes and there are a number of quick-release safety cords available which secure the weapon from chambering a round.

  Recall, however, that most gun deaths in the United States are accidental and that ownership of a firearm is one of the most serious and dangerous responsibilities a person can undertake outside of, say, piloting a medivac helicopter.

PB

[L0oniX]

21. That won't work for a CCW.

[tburnsten]

94. 54% of US gun deaths are suicides

So how can most gun deaths be accidents?

[wartrace]

229. Most gun deaths are NOT accidents.

Less than 10% of all gun deaths are accidental. (Including hunting accidents)

[fastsix]

283. Shotgun vs. Interior walls - walls lose...a lot.

And one last thing- as opposed to some other weapons it is far less likely that the round will continue through one or more walls or windows after being fired and potentially injure or kill an innocent outside the home.

You're wrong. 00 buckshot will go through a wall like it isn't even there. It'll go through 4 interior walls, or 8 sheets of drywall. You could use #4 shot, but it'll still go through 3 interior walls (6 sheets). Birdshot is safer, but I wonder how well it'd do penetrating certain type of clothing such as leather or denim. I suspect a person with a gun would still be able to fire back at you after being shot with birdshot, although they'd probably be more interested in getting away.

The main advantage of a shotgun is that when you hit someone with a load of #00 shot, it's like hitting them with 9 9mm rounds at once. I'm guessing it stings a bit.

This is a good site to find out what happens when you shoot walls (and other things) with various guns.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

I then loaded a round of Remington 2 3/4", 00 Buck, 9 pellets.

This load penetrated 7 boards, 3 pellets went through the 8th board, and one pellet was stuck in the 9th board.

[flvegan]

15. Colt Officer's Compact .45 M1911

6 shot, loaded with Black Talons. Lives in my nightstand. At night, on my nightstand.

In the closet, just in case, I have a Mossberg 500. Pistol grip, loaded with double x slugs.

Bear in mind, I have no children, and no children come in my house at any time.

But then, I have a very protective rottie boy and a dozen pitbulls in my house. You're taking your chances breaking into my house.

I don't think that the wish to protect oneself and arming yourself to do so is hypocritical.

[L0oniX]

19. Well I am very anti killing, anti war and anti military so it kind of seems hypocritical.

[flvegan]

61. So am I. Hell, I don't even believe in killing animals for food.

But I'm not about to let myself become a statistic either. I've got too many people and animals that count on me.

[L0oniX]

64. I believe your chances of dieing in a car accident are far greater.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

161. That's what seat belts are for. Seat belts don't help much in home invasions though.

[Jack Bone]

16. 12 gage..I got it after Katrina...

If the shit ever hit the fan here, I could protect my wife & daughter w/ it.

I've got a few boxes of "turkey shoot" as I don't wanna blow holes through my walls.

[L0oniX]

22. That will not be quick to grab and use if your in your bed in the middle of the night.

[jeepnstein]

107. Wanna bet?

It's all about layers of defense.

[tburnsten]

206. There is a page on the AR15 forums all about defensive shotgun loads

Honestly, the thought to avoid shooting through walls is a good idea, but it doesn't really play out. Total misses are more of a risk than overpenetration, and any load that is capable of killing a human will punch straight through your walls, unless you are living in a brick or concrete house.

[Lucian]

17. If I needed to defend myself at home,

I would use a knife or a baseball bat, plus I have seven dogs that would take care of everything. I don't need a fucking gun or a whole armory like some people do (maybe they're over-compensating?).

[L0oniX]

26. You're going to take a guess as to if they have a gun?

[Lucian]

34. You're right...

now I guess I should go out and buy 250 M16's!

:crazy:

[L0oniX]

44. That's an extreme. We are talking about simple personal protection here.

No body here is going gun crazy.

[spin]

168. Never bring a knife to a gun fight nor a baseball bat. (n/t)

[SteveM]

189. Dogs would be a help ...if they are allowed where you live...

Certainly, any kind of self-defense measure short of a gun is better than nothing. I do think that the apparent rise of home invasion (whereby two or more armed crims break their way into a home with the aim of using overwhelming force) can neutralize the impact of dogs and other measures. In these cases, it is wise to have a firearm. It should be noted that millions of people rent, and have provisions in their leases prohibiting dogs.

I have several firearms locked up and unloaded (I guess that exempts me from "over-compensating"). I have ONE firearm at bedside for self-defense. It is a .357 magnum designed to stop attackers. When I leave for the day, it too is locked up.

[tburnsten]

201. Do your dogs like steak?

A knife or baseball bat? Really? I doubt most home invaders in your area rely on blunt objects, good luck.

[wartrace]

228. Oh, really?

You are willing to kill using your knife? You are willing to kill using your baseball bat? You are willing to allow your dogs to kill for you? Yet you are somehow unwilling to kill with a firearm?

How odd is that? Dead is dead no matter how the deceased is killed.

I am "overcompensating" for my age. I'm too old to get in a baseball bat fight with a youngster. A firearm is the most effective weapon available and I expect that in my home I have the right to defend myself.

Now, the term "Fucking gun" is disturbing. Does the term "fucking" add anything to the conversation? Does that term add to your credibility? Does it make you sound "sophisticated"? It is overused, it tells me you are a sheep following the flock.

[TXRAT2]

280. (maybe they're over-compensating?).

Maybe your over confident?

[Stinky The Clown]

18. No guns here

[iverglas]

139. hmm, perhaps this is why

thee and me ended up on a Top 10 for 2008 list together.

I think you got more votes than I did, though. :(

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

173. You think he doesn't have a firearm because he ended up on a top 10 list.

[iverglas]

174. my good bleeding jesus on a pogo stick

Do you never engage your brain first?

You have made a statement that is not only false and completely devoid of basis in anything I said, it is bizarre in the extreme.


Person 1: No guns here
Person 2: hmm, perhaps this is why thee and me ended up on a Top 10 for 2008 list together.


I can't even think of how one might go about explaining why that does not mean that I "think he doesn't have a firearm because he ended up on a top 10 list".

I can't even think of what would prompt someone to think it did.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

176. I thought it would get you to respond in the manner that you did.

Do I get on a top ten list for that? Surely you got that I was joking.

David

[iverglas]

177. no, Dave, it is really impossible to tell when / whether you are joking

but oh well.



Never mind.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

178. Really, good to know, I thought that one was pretty obvious.

I'll work on using those tags.

David

[Soylent Brice]

20. no, i don't own a gun

but sometimes i wish i did. lol

[MADem]

23. Red Ryder BB Gun.

"You'll shoot your eye out!!!!"

[L0oniX]

29. I've been shot in the ass by one of those ...it stings.

[azmouse]

24. I've never owned a gun because I don't trust myself around them.

It's the same reason I don't use power tools. I'm too easily distracted to use them responsibly.

[L0oniX]

127. Gun safety classes should give someone some confidence.

[TXRAT2]

281. I don't trust myself around them.

Honest answer and a wise decision.

[Ganja Ninja]

25. I keep a CZ 100 by my bed at night.

It's pretty similar to the Glock, 9 mm, polymer frame, double action only with no external safeties. I also have a laser sight on it. I figure that just shinning the laser on a wall (at night) out where an intruder can see it will be enough to get them to give it up and leave house.

[L0oniX]

33. Yea the lazer is a great idea only yours will take an extra step to turn it on.

That's one of the reasons I chose the 642 with the grip lazer. It turns on automatically when you hold the weapon.

[RiverStone]

27. No guns. Hardly ever use locks.

A big reason we chose to live outside a small town - much closer to wilderness than big cities.

[L0oniX]

35. I must live where there is work and I don't farm and this house is paid for.

[RiverStone]

87. What is the connection between your house being paid for and owning a gun?

I drive 14 miles to work and my house is no where near paid off - live surrounded by woods with no visible neighbors. Here in rural WA - there are lots of gun owners - mostly your 30.06's for hunting. Don't like it, but I hear shots frequently during hunting season. Either poachers or setting scopes probably, but at least they have to take a gun safety class!

But with teenagers in the house, the idea of having any gun bothers me. Kids can get into gun cabinets.

I just don't worry about a violent intruder --- back to country living. I suppose if an intruder broke in, I'd have to take after him with a baseball bat. I just don't worry about it. I don't like guns and don't get why people even enjoy them, but minus the semi-automatic variety used on the battlefield or by police swat teams, I respect the right of private citizens to own them.

[L0oniX]

110. Where I live there are home invasions where people die. I can't just walk away from my home...

and move out to the country. First off no one is buying homes. Believe me I have looked into living out in the country but I can't find a job repairing electronics out there. My only choice is to stay where I am at the defend my wife and home. BTW the police have not captured anyone

[tburnsten]

210. There has been a rash of violence in my homestate as well

including a pair of guys who broke into a home and mutilated a ten year oldgirl and her father for being home at the time. They were on the edge for some time after the event, but luckily both survived. The little girl has a healthy sense of humor, she says she is going to tell people she was mauled by a shark. I have close to zero tolerance for people who break into occupied residences and don't evacuate the moment they realize someone is home.

[X_Digger]

153. Those rifles are not used on the battlefield

"but minus the semi-automatic variety used on the battlefield or by police swat teams, I respect the right of private citizens to own them."

Military use fully automatic rifles, as do many police swat teams I know. Many hunting rifles are semi-automatic these days.

[SteveM]

190. I was once one of four teenagers "in the house." We were all armed...

One of the best strategies my folks used was to introduce all the sons to firearms at an early age. We had all fired revolvers, shotguns, and .22 rifles by the age of 10, and were taken on hunting trips even before we could carry a gun. At 12, we could carry a shotgun, and by 13 we were all given new shotguns and a target revolver as gifts. I still have mine.

While most of our firearms were locked in a separate cabinet, and ammunition was stored in the same manner, we were allowed to keep the .22 revolvers in our own rooms for protection. There was never any concern about teenagers having access to guns.

We had all the access we wanted.

BTW, while semi-auto pistols can be found on the "battlefield" and in possession of police swat teams, the battle weapons used by armies all over the world are FULL AUTO. That is why the semi-auto "assault weapon" (not a technical term) is not considered adequate in combat any more than the old Garand M1 semi-auto rifle first carried by the U.S. Army at the beginning of WW II. In short, semi-auto rifles have been "retired" to civilian use as FULL AUTO has become the mainstay in virtually all armies.

I appreciate your respect for my rights.

[tburnsten]

209. You are thinking of the automatic variety

Used by swat teams and armies. Semi automatic means that when you pull the trigger once, it fires one shot, the same way a bolt-action rifle fires a single shot every time its trigger is pulled,or a lever or pump action fires once per pull.



And I highly doubt your neighborhood poachers have to take a safety class before poaching. And how can kids get into a gunsafe? Not every storage device is a wood and glass cabinet, they may not be pretty but functional gunsafes are pretty secure.

[RaleighNCDUer]

96. The only intruders to worry about would be raccoons.

And truth be told, there's a far higher likelihood of raccoons for you than there is of human intruders for all these folks who think they need to keep arsenals.

[RiverStone]

128. Yea, last winter I walked out on my front porch and on the tree to the left of the house...

Were 5 - count em 5 raccoons!

As long as I keep the lid on the garbage, they pose no problem. Damn good thing my cats know to stay away from them; their claws easily peel the bark off trees. Also we have plenty of possum, skunk, coyote, deer, wild turkey, and the occasional bear and cougar wander through.

Though they probably see my 5 acres as a safe zone (back to no guns here). :hi:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

162. Must be nice to have those options.

[tabbycat31]

no

My dad has guns but none of them work (he collects Civil War weapons).
The only way I would have a gun is if I wound up marrying someone who needed it for their job (ie law enforcement).

[Occam Bandage]

28. I own only a BB gun, used for "protection" against varmints that destroy gardens. Daisy, 0.177".

I have fantastic aim, which I get from my father and my grandfather. I do not keep a gun in the house, which I get from my father as a result of my grandfather.

[mike_c]

30. no

eom

[derby378]

31. No pistols here...

...although my preferred pistol would probably be a Glock or S&W in .40-caliber.

[SacredCow]

32. I disagree re the "no good reason to use something with a long barrel..."

My choice for home protection is a 20-gauge pump-action shotgun, loaded with single-aught buckshot. My reasons for this are as follows: First off, you don't have to keep a shell in the breach (and indeed you shouldn't). But breaching a shell is very easy- there's probably a small button to press and you simply slide the bolt back and forward and you're ready to go. The bonus of this action is the noise- it's unmistakable, and probably most invaders are going to hoof it knowing that there are probably easier marks out there. Second, if it DOES come down to firing the weapon- aim is not as critical; it's "point and shoot" as the saying goes (and if you're very concerned about your aim, use #6 birdshot instead of the buckshot).

If you DO opt for a handgun- I would say a revolver. Probably a .38 special- anything smaller and the stopping power gets minimized, bigger is OK but be sure anybody who might use the weapon is comfortable with it. I'm hesitant about the laser sight, though.

As for the war.... I don't think getting rid of Saddam was a BAD thing. But now, I think we're over there trying to force our culture on them. If we're going to "rebuild" Iraq (and it would be in our best interest), we need to do it with respect for their culture.

[L0oniX]

38. You're not going to get a CCW permit for that. It's not quick to grab from bed and be ready for use.

[spin]

171. A shotgun is an excellent bedroom weapon...

You grab the shotgun and hide behind your bed facing the door. If the intruder breaks into your bedroom, you have time to make sure he's someone who shouldn't be there and pull the trigger.

But if you decide to play Wyatt Earp and clear the house by yourself (not a real good idea), the long barrel of the shotgun can be a disadvantage. As you enter a room, the bad guy can be waiting beside the door and grab the barrel and wrestle the weapon away from you.

[SlowDownFast]

36. Card-carrying member of the NRA and ACLU.

I own 4 hunting rifles - .308, .30-06, 7mm, .22

2 shotguns - 20g and 12g

2 handguns - .357 revolver and a Glock 23 (.40 caliber).

The Glock is the newest member of the family.

on edit:

Three major reasons I went with the Glock 23:

First, they are hands down the most reliable and durable auto handguns in existence. The use of the Glock brand by most major law enforcement agencies and military attests to this. Many rigorous tests have been done

Second, FBI ballistics tests show the .40S&W round to be more effective (stopping power and penetration) than the 9mm, which has been the standard for LE agencies. The Glock 23 is now the standard service model for the FBI, having upgraded from 9mm. The 23 is the compact version, allowing for CC, without giving up too much accuracy (longer barrel and line of sight).

Thirdly, every model Glock, besides .45ACP and 9mm, can be quickly converted to other calibers, providing you purchase an aftermarket conversion barrel. I can quickly remove the slide and stock .40 barrel and drop in a 9mm, 10mm, or .357Sig barrel and shoot those calibers (9mm conversion requires 9mm magazines). I believe it is the only auto handgun that you can just quickly drop in the barrel and instantly change calibers.

for more info on conversion barrels see:
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/
or
http://www.topglock.com/

Insofar as keeping a loaded firearm on your "nightstand", 2 very good arguments exist for having a revolver: first you have to pull the hammer back which is a surpreme "safety" mechanism (whereas Glocks your trigger finger is your only "safety" mechanism), and second, a revolver is many times more reliable than an automatic because of the simplicity of the action.

[L0oniX]

40. I almost bought a Glock 17 but I had to consider my wife using a gun.

I have to keep it simple and easy to aim for her ...lazer helps a lot.

[RamboLiberal]

54. You can get a grip laser for a Glock or you can put one on the rail

Crimson Trace has grip lasers. FWIW I'm female and I find it far easier to accurately shoot a Glock over a J-Frame. And I've done a lot of shooting.

Did you try shooting the guns before buying? Just curious.

[L0oniX]

86. Yes I have used many guns. I have to consider the ease of CCW as well.

This gun will fit in your pocket and not get caught on the hammer when you try to pull it out. My wife has no experience and for that reason I felt that the lighter, smaller, easy to use and grip laser features are good for her.

[L0oniX]

88. Nice of the mods to move this thread ...and the thread goes dead ...thanks a lot.

[MADem]

118. They're knee-jerk about GUNS. It's like "Israel-Palestine."

Heaven knows where they'd put a "Do you own any Israeli guns?" thread....

I suppose it would have taken longer if the question had been "What sort of HOME PROTECTION do you use? Alarms, dogs, weapons?"

But they do like to herd the gun stuff into one pile. It's because there are a lot of people who just don't understand that guns aren't always about "the military" or "gang violence" or "Dirty Harry" or any of that machismo, weapon-waving bullshit. Sometimes guns are all about "dinner." As in, if you don't get your ass out in the woods and fill the freezer, there will not be any protein for dinner.

It's the nature of the forum. Unlikely to change, either.

[iverglas]

158. if you spend much time in either forum

You might actually get a rather clear picture of why they are "knee-jerk" about confining threads on the subjects to the forums in question.

[SteveM]

191. I second Utopian's remarks concerning revolvers. I use a .357 (nt)

[DesertFlower]

37. i own a Smith & Wesson 38 special.

i keep it in my night stand. hubby owns a walters PPK. we also have a security system.

[L0oniX]

43. Yea I think that is a good choise too. The S&W 642 is a .38 - 5 shot hammerless.

[Vinnie From Indy]

41. Are you people fuckin' nuts?

Why people feel free to share such information so freely with God and everybody I'll never know.

Sure, the OP has a great, compelling, seemingly innocent reason for asking, but you people have no idea who is asking and for what purpose.

Re-read the post again.

One can easily find several interesting bits of information offered by the OP that could be interpreted as a passive form of interrogation. The OP offers why he wants a gun, what kind of gun he will use, where he will keep the gun in his house and then he asks if you support the war and if YOU have a gun. Maybe he hopes you will tell him if you have weapons, where you keep them and your anti-war views in the spirit of "DU community".

I'll play! I have a modified Star Trek phaser under every pillow. My yard is littered with land mines designed to engulf intruders with gobs of marshmallow goo and chocalote syrup. I have trained an army of slugs and snails to attack at my command, but you'll have to stand still for a few hours for them to be effective.

Oh yeah, and my bedroom is actually a cleverly designed escape pod designed to shoot me out into the river near my house for quick getaway. Put that in your file!

[L0oniX]

46. The possible hypocracy aspect is my own self examination of my thought process.

I didn't ask if anyone supports the war ...you have distorted the ops intentions ...have a nice day.

[Vinnie From Indy]

62. I didn't distort YOUR intentions, I just asked readers to read the OP with a different mindset

I have no idea what your intentions are with this post. I will offer again that, in my opinion, it is quite stupid for people to so cavalier about sharing personal details of their personal security ON A PUBLIC FORUM.

Also, if one were to come to DU to build Homeland Security style profiles on members how would they do it effectively? Well golly, they simply have to ask. Who knew it would be that simple?

[L0oniX]

72. Agent Mike is in charge of that.

:evilgrin:

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. And this is where you are supposed to say you are not Agent Mike

and we are supposed to believe you.

:tinfoilhat:

[L0oniX]

125. LOL

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

160. Don't you know all of us in the gun forum are closet republicans only lurking here to disrupt...

the free exchange of progressive ideas?


David

[spin]

172. The government knows I have guns...

as I have a concealed carry permit.

And they probably know more than you can imagine about most citizens in this country. Ever hear about data mining?

If not read this link:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0209/p01s02-uspo.html

[SteveM]

192. They know I have guns because I have a hunting license. Whoop-d-doo (nt)

[TheWraith]

66. What possible purpose could that serve?

Most of the people here probably don't even list the area they live in in their profile, let alone their address. I know I don't. So absent mind-reading, of what nefarious use is whether X DUer has a gun or not, and where they might keep it?

I think you're a bit paranoid.

[Vinnie From Indy]

74. I take it you haven't worked in intelligence or law enforcement.

I know that if I ever had to arrest a person at home, I would very much like to know if they had weapons, what kind and where they were kept.

Also, don't be so sure in your belief that your personal information isn't just a warrant away from being obtained legally or hasn't already been logged illegally.

Just because one may be paranoid, it does not make one wrong.

[TheWraith]

154. I'm not paranoid enough to think that the CIA worries about my 12 gauge.

Besides which, my state (like most) has paperwork whenever you obtain a weapon legally, and I doubt most people would be bragging about an illegal one. Nor is it a given that the "target" would respond with any useful information. Maybe if somebody you were conversing with personally made that pitch, you'd have some basis for your paranoia.

[machI]

159. I live in the panhandle of Florida, and gun ownership is widespread here

As much as the rednecks like to talk about their guns, it is rather Faux Pas to ask a stranger about his gun.

[tburnsten]

200. I think you might be a little overcautious

Although I see what you are talking about and I do think the poster is probably some sort of troll, hard to tell exactly what kind but I doubt he's doing any surveillance, since the U.S. has plenty of civilian-owned firearms, what purpose could it possibly serve to try and forcibly disarm or arrest people who are not in favor of our current wars (very mixed emotions personally) using firearms ownership?



I think it is most likely just someone who is stuck on fourteen, or maybe someone who really doesn't like guns at all and is posting in such a silly way for their own fun at what they consider the expense of gun owners.

[Ready4Change]

243. Where'd you get my home defense plans?

Not only that, but now you've broadcast them! All my work, right down the tubes. I'll have to start all over.

And the slugs were just starting to obey my commands, too!

;)

[backscatter712]

45. Lots of good guns here for self-defense.

Glocks are good, solid, reliable weapons. So are S&W revolvers. 12 ga shotguns are good for home defense - very powerful, and the cha-chak sound will send intruders running.

I'd also recommend a dog. Doesn't have to be a police-trained rottweiler - even a little yappy pug will do for discouraging intruders - they do not like dogs, and will move on to houses where there are no dogs. Just the barking makes too much noise for intruders.

[L0oniX]

47. We have 4 attack parrots.

:evilgrin:

[Ready4Change]

244. Those are fine, but have limitations.

Parrots are just the ticket if your assailant is using, say, brazil nuts at short range. But what if he's flinging sardines? To handle that you'll also want to arm yourself with a 'long bird.'

The blue heron is a classic, but it's a bit awkward for concealed carry. A green heron might be a more fitting choice.

[DesertFlower]

52. i don't have a dog, but

i do have a security system. sometimes the loud alarm will be a deterrent, but if it isn't i've got my .38.

[RamboLiberal]

48. I personally believe that I should be able to defend myself

S&W 38 J frame is a good choice for someone that wants a safe gun they can grab in the dark of night. Only down side is the 5-shot limit. Suggest you get a speedloader to keep with the gun and learn how to use it.

I have a J frame with a laser I can put in my pocket in warmer weather.

I also have a couple of Glocks & a S&W M&P & a Springfield XD all in 9mm. I carry either the Glock 26 or 19 in a holster or a Maxpedition fatboy pack.

I keep my carry Glocks with one in the chamber, but I also make sure they are in a holster with the trigger covered so I can't accidentally grab them with finger in the trigger. BTW, the Glocks like many of the new semi-autos has no external safety like a 1911 and some other models.

You can also get lasers either in a grip or for attachment on lower rail for most of the semi-autos.

And yeah, I'm against the war.

[L0oniX]

59. I had to consider my wife who is not very experienced in gun use.

I would rather have a Glock C17 for use at the practice range but this is a no brainer with the laser. I didn't know they have grip lasers for Glock style guns. They are very convenient with the auto on feature and make aiming easy.

[RamboLiberal]

217. Crimson Trace has come out with a new LaserGuard for Glocks

And other pistols. Looks nifty and an improvement over their laser grips, at least for the Glock.

http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Products/GLOCK/LG436/tabid/412/Default.aspx

[cliffordu]

49. 1911 .45

[L0oniX]

65. Too big for my wife.

[cliffordu]

70. Do'h..... sorry.

I'd get her a 4 inch Smith .38

And teach her to put 6 in the center mass.

[L0oniX]

78. That's why I went with the S&W 642 with laser.

It's frame is aluminum with 2 inch SS barrel, and with the laser she should have no problem with targeting.

[cliffordu]

80. Now you're talking.

Nice piece

[L0oniX]

85. After the instructor showed me his and why he used it ...it was a no brainer.

[sinkingfeeling]

51. No, never had a gun of any type in my home.

[sharp_stick]

53. Oh Yeah!

I got this puppy sitting on my roof. Damned turkeys keep crapping in my yard and eating raspberries every summer. This keeps the Amway folks and Mormons away too.



on edit for smaller pic of machine gun

[TheWraith]

68. The first one wasn't a machine gun, it was an automatic grenade launcher.

And also rather cooler in terms of the mental image. :D

[sharp_stick]

82. Correct on both counts LOL n/t

[L0oniX]

69. This one keeps other drivers away.

http://www.a-1firearms.com/

[Ezlivin]

55. SIG Sauer P226

It's a very nice 9mm pistol and both me and my wife enjoy shooting it. (We both had military training.)

[L0oniX]

71. Training is the key for safety. People shouldn't own a defense weapon without it.

[Ezlivin]

73. Damn straight

Personally I have no problem with qualification tests for each weapon owned. If you can't pass a test demonstrating your knowledge and skill with a particular weapon, then study and try again.

[L0oniX]

79. I think training should be mandatory for any gun ownership.

[tburnsten]

205. What if you want a weapon you don't really have the ability to practice with before buying?

I didn't know how to disassemble my shotgun when I bought it, or my USP, I only knew how to field strip my Glocks because of the Sigma I had for a year, the AR-15 I bought last spring I know how to strip because of BCT. I think a general safety demonstration would be fine, not being an expert is no reason to deny someone the purchase of a firearm they want.


An awful lot is learned by sitting down with a new firearm and its manual and figuring out how exactly everything fits together. Generally shops tend to disapprove of people stripping their guns just to practice. General gun safety would be less of a hassle and pay greater dividends. Gun safety class as a mandatory short course in high school would be a great thing to have in my opinion.

[plantwomyn]

268. I always strip down and clean a new gun before I shoot it.

My new 30-06 had crap in the barrel right out of the box.
I think classes and a test should be made part of the cost of gun purchase. Once you qualify with one type of weapon you quality for any additional purchases of that type of weapon. IE 9mm auto pistol qualifies you for all auto pistols. I agree with the gun courses in High School too, but it may be helpful to teach basis gun safety grade schoolers. Something like... if you see a gun DO NOT TOUCH IT and TELL A GROWNUP ABOUT IT. That way stupid gun owners will get the message about an accessible firearm and kids that aren't around guns learn they should not touch them.

[RamboLiberal]

218. I really like SIGS - had a couple of 228s that I traded

Nice for self-defense since the hammer down makes the gun a bit safer holstering/unholstering, and if you have the time you can pull the hammer back if you want to make the first shot SA. Only reason I gave up my SIGS was I compete and the longer/heavier DA shot coming from the holster wasn't always my most accurate shot.

Both of my 228s were super reliable. Never had a malfunction and I put thousands of rounds through both of them.

But I can't complain, my Glocks, S&W M&P and XD have also been super reliable.

[TheWraith]

58. I own a 12 guage semi-auto shotgun.

Although most of what I'm "defending" against is opossums and possibly foxes getting into the chickens.

If you're talking about a handgun for home defense, have you considered something like the Taurus Judge? It's a 5-shot revolver which takes either .45 Long Colt rounds, or .410 bore shotgun shells. If you load it with, say, 000 buckshot, then it's still more than powerful enough to stop an intruder, but there's no danger of overpenetration or worrying about what's backstopping your shot, as well as the benefit of not having to aim too carefully. If I were going to get a pistol, my preference would be either a Judge or the FN Herstal Five-seveN.

By the way, that gun instructor you talked to is a fucking idiot, and a dangerous one, if he actually kept a chambered, unsafetied pistol next to his bed. It takes a fraction of a second to click off the safety, and only about a second to chamber a round, so there's no good excuse to leave a gun like that. They call it a "SAFETY switch for a very good reason. I know some obsessive morons imagine situations where the safety will get in their way, but if you've really practiced with it and not in a blind panic, it's no problem. And you shouldn't be shooting at anything in a blind panic anyway, because thats how you accidently kill people you don't mean to.

To address your main question, it's not hypocritical to want to defend yourself, even up to the point of lethal force. The only hypocrisy is if you're opposed to any other type of force; having a military or the rare necessity of using it. Then you're saying that robust protection is good enough for you but not for others.

[L0oniX]

81. I'm not sure but I think a police Glock 17 does not come with a safety.

[TheWraith]

156. Actually, Glocks come with three safety systems because they ARE popular with police.

A regular trigger safety and two others to prevent accidental discharge through dropping or mishandling. This is because police carry with the pistol already chambered, and thus they need to be extra certain that rough treatment isn't going to set it off accidently.

[tburnsten]

212. All Glock pistols come with the same safety features

The trigger safety, drop safety, and firing pin safety to be specific. All of them are turned on or off by the movement of the trigger mechanism, so they are actual mechanical safeties, not off-switches for the pistol. Glocks are not forgiving of poor firearms handling safety practices, but will never "go off" on their own.

[Statistical]

89. There are many weapons with no external safety

The best safety is between your ears.

I have carried a S&W M&P for years and now carry a Ruger LCP.
Neither have an external safety.

Jeff Cooper is pretty smart guy. I follow his rules.

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

It is possible to be SAFE without and external SAFETY. Who know how many weapons are accidentally fired because someone "was sure the safety was on".

[L0oniX]

93. Great rules. If only gun owners would practice them more.

I see people handling guns in a gun store and even though they are unloaded some people are not considerate as to where the barrel points which shows that they lack having the proper handling ingrained.

[TheWraith]

155. True, but none of those things are hampered by HAVING the safety.

And it does provide an extra level of security when dealing with that percentage of people who aren't going to handle things properly. I know better than to stuff fireworks down my pants, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should have warning labels.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

60. I do own a shotgun and a pistol.

I have them because I like to shoot at targets and clay pigeons, but, of course, they could be used for self-defense if need be.

I pray it never comes to that, though.

[L0oniX]

83. I hope I never have to use it but the thought of my wife being raped and killed is a bit too much...

for me to not take measures to guard against.

[ThomWV]

67. 2 Beretta 9mm

My wife's is a stainless model 92 and mine is a stainless Cougar, both in 9mm.

[hunter]

76. I have ants. Nobody gets past them.

But mostly you want to watch out for Doug.

[scrinmaster]

77. For protection in the house, an AR15, in my car or on my person, a Sig P225.

[L0oniX]

84. I doubt my wife could grab an AR15 from bed and defend herself with it.

Forget getting a CCW permit for that.

[tburnsten]

262. Something good for carrying and something best for home defense usually aren't the same

An AR would be an excellent home defense weapon, low recoil, effective with a load designed for that purpose, easy to learn to shoot accurately, and great ergonomics.


It would be a much better home defense weapon than any pistol or revolver made for regular carry.
I think you should come to terms with the fact that you may have to buy more than one firearm to cover those two drastically different needs.

[L0oniX]

90. Nice of the mods to move this thread ...and the thread goes dead ...thanks a lot.

[tburnsten]

91. I think you should take a deep breath and an NRA basic pistol course

And there is no manual safety on any Glock pistol. There are three "passive" safeties that protect against an unintentional discharge, but do not stop the pistol from discharging if the trigger is pulled. And guns should be either in a safe or in a holster, even if they aren't being worn, to protect against a situation where a person picks it up on purpose or reaching for something else in the dark and touches off a round. In a holster, the trigger is protected and that situation cannot happen.

[L0oniX]

95. I plan to keep ours in a holster that is mounted to the side of an end table.

[tburnsten]

101. I still think you should take a couple of good classes

And for beginners, nobody beats the NRA for instruction. I would (and do) keep a shotgun with an empty chamber, because most of them are not drop-safe, but I would (and do) keep a handgun with a loaded chamber.

[L0oniX]

121. We are both taking the CCW course.

[tburnsten]

185. Cool

You are just coming across as sort of breathlessly enthusiaatic, just want to do what I can to help direct you and your wife towards some good training and information.

[iverglas]

138. and when you're not there?

Will you leave the TV on to keep it company?

[tburnsten]

193. Who 'we', paleface?

[Scout]

195. :rofl: n/t

[tburnsten]

197. You like that eh? Me too

[iverglas]

207. glad you liked it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=197452&mesg_id=197488

1:01 pm today

And of course numerous instances in this forum going back years to the first time, when someone reported me for "racism" for repeating the very old joke ...

Always happy when I can broaden horizons!


typo ...


Oh, and on second edit, of course what I meant to say was: amusing as the line is, I have absolutely no idea what it had to do with my post, which did not contain any version of the first person plural pronoun.

I'm still waiting to hear what our friend plans to do with his firearm when he's not at home. Maybe you'd ask him for, er, us.

[Scout]

222. no, i thought it was a stupid comment, i didn't really like it. i was laughing at not with you. n/t

[tburnsten]

92. Got a couple

Most of mine would make fine home defense weapons, but my HK USP .40 and Mossberg 500 Persuader 12 gauge shotgun are the two that I would call full time defense guns.

[jeepnstein]

97. Slow down, take a deep breath.

What about your current situation places you in a state of concern for your family's safety? A gun isn't going to make you any safer. It's not some kind of magic wand that you wave and make all the goblins go scurrying. It can be part of an overall strategy but isn't the be-all-and-end-all of home safety.

Home invasions? OK, you'll need to buy some time to get into a defensible position. Nothing says "hey bad guys, can you give me a minute to get my gun?" like a German Shepherd. Of course, you'll need sturdy doors and windows to slow them down long enough to let Rover do that voodoo that he do all so well. The alarm is also a good tool.

As far as a gun goes I prefer a pump shotgun from a barricaded position. An AR15 is also a wonderful tool for this kind of work. This isn't like TV. You set up your line of defense and let them make the first mistake. Make sure there is a phone of some kind in your defensive position. Dig in and make them earn it. No screaming or shouting, just patiently wait for them to either come to you or leave. Oh, and no warning shots. Nobody says it has to be a fair fight. They are coming into your house and you should be holding all the cards.

Learn self defense from someone who isn't selling guns. Let your situation define your choice of arms rather than making your arms dictate your tactics.

Be aware that most home invasions are drug-related. The invaders are looking for dope or money, not making cold calls just to see if you might have something they want. Be aware of who is working on or around your house. Get into your neighbor's business and invite them to look out for you as well.

I say harden your house, learn how to get to a defensible position inside the house, and buy an AR15 and five thirty round magazines. The AR is much easier to shoot than a .38 snubbie and will get the job done. With the right ammo, you won't go blasting through the house and into your neighbor's, either.

Don't let fear rule your life. Fear just takes all the fun out of everything.

[L0oniX]

111. A lady was killed just 2 blocks from our house ...that can be cause for some concern.

[jeepnstein]

187. Maybe, maybe not...

What were her circumstances? Most victims know their attacker in some way. How dense is the neighborhood? Are we talking urban, suburban, or country setting? Getting murdered is a pretty rare way to go.

Getting a concealed carry permit will allow you to legally carry a weapon in public in most areas. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll actually be "good" with a gun. It just means you meet the minimum requirements to be considered safe. Oh, and I really like J frame Smith and Wessons.

For your home, I would still say you need layers of defense depending on your environment. Sturdy doors, windows, an alarm, and a dog. That would be a good start. Have you ever heard of the concept of a "safe room"? I'm sticking with an AR15 as a good choice for a weapon to barricade yourself with. They're easy to handle, low recoil, accurate, and have sufficient power to get the job done. Like I said before, dig in hard and make them earn it.

Stay safe.

[aikoaiko]

99. A lot of DUers own firearms.

I own a few firearms ultimately in the cause of self-defense and protection of my family, but also for the enjoyment of recreational and target shooting. I have several. I keep a .357 Taurus Revolver in a push button lockbox on the piano in the living room. I have a Mossberg 7 round shotgun in the kitchen, and upstairs I have a Para 14.45 semi-automatic handgun and my AR-15. All are loaded.

I think getting a S&W 642 is a safe bet. I encourage you to get a lock box. There are push button models and finger print reader models that are safe and fast.

In time, you may try other guns at ranges where you can rent guns and find that there is a better model out there for you.

[L0oniX]

114. Thanks for your input. I don't enjoy target practice but I used to like hunting.

My main concern is that my (gun newbie) wife can handle it properly and quickly.

[aikoaiko]

131. If you want to go with a revolver that is intended to stay in house, I'd go at least 3-4 in barrel.

The only reason people make 2-inch snubbies is for easy concealed carry. The extra weight and sight radius can help people keep their aim of point on target.

See http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5759&return=Y

See http://www.proguns.com/smithwesson-686-4inch.asp

See http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=265&category=Revolver

[old mark]

100. I own 16 various guns, and use several to protect my home.

I also have a license to carry a firearm in Pennsylvania, as well as in the several states that recognise a PA state license. I carry a handgun every time I leave the house, and I have for nearly 15 years.
I taught my wife to shoot using a revolver, and she has her own handgun, an old Smith & Wesson .38 revolver, a former police revolver from the 1970's.
I refuse to trust someone with the bad judgement to break into another person's home looking for money or whatever or who would mug or rob someone on the street to have the power of life and death over my wife or myself. I do not feel this is hypocracy in any way - the person invading your home is the agressor, and has no qualms about harming or killing you or anyone else for the possibility of a small financial gain. There is NO REASON to be ashamed of being a legal gun owner. or of deciding to protect your own life, regardless of the idiotic ravings of the anti-gun jerkoffs.

Further, I feel that if you will not fight to keep your own life, you don't deserve it.


mark

[L0oniX]

115. Thanks. I also am not going to guess the intentions of someone who breaks into my home.

[Hangingon]

102. 12 guage pump and a new .45 automatic

[jmg257]

103. Yes. I found the best for CCW to be either a Walther P99 in 9mm or an HK P2000 in .40.

SOme overlap there, but there are various reason I prefer both, and prefer them over Glocks & other semis, and over revolvers.

Trigger pull, sights, reliability, cost, ergonomics, engineering, reliability, safety, caliber, capacity, accuracy, reliability, size / weight, convenience, quality and of course - reliability.


I also have other considerations you may not - such as children, visitors, visiting children, security / safety, etc.

[L0oniX]

116. I like the idea of having no exposed hammer that can get caught on a pants pocket.

[jmg257]

126. Makes sense. Such is the P99C - which is striker fired, but I also prefer not to carry in a pants

pocket. A strong side holster seems much quicker, though a roomy jacket pocket in a pinch isn't too bad.

[man4allcats]

104. I have two protection guns,

a Colt .38 Detective Special (i.e., a snub nose revolver) and a 12 gauge Winchester Defender pump (this weapon has a short barrel). Thankfully, I have never had to use either, but they are both loaded and ready. I've known too many "capable-of-anything" fools in my life to risk being victimized by one. I am a quiet and I think generally sane person, but I will not tolerate anyone attempting to violate my home or my welfare.

[L0oniX]

117. Agreed and with the economic down turn there are sure to be more break ins.

[krispos42]

105. You're facing essentially two possible self-defense scenarios

A: You or your spouse hears something funny, so you go off to investigate.

B: Somebody is kicking in a door or breaking in through a window, so you grab the kids and barricade yourself in the bedroom.




In A, a handgun has advantages in that it is one-handed, leaving your other hand free to manipulate doors, curtains, and light switches, or to hold a flashlight. Of course, you can also attach a flashlight and/or laser sight to most handguns. In addition, a handgun can be kept in a quick-access safe in a drawer or bookshelf. The downside is that they are not very powerful and they are harder to aim.

In B, a shotgun or rifle has advantages in that it is far more powerful and intimidating, they are rather easier to hold and easier to aim, and in a pinch they make pretty useful clubs. However their storage requirements are somewhat more cumbersome and they are not as easy to maneuver in the confines of a house, so they're not as good for investigating noises.




For situation A, I would prefer keeping an unloaded semiautomatic pistol in a quick-access safe. A pair of magazines loaded with high-quality hollowpoints would be kept next to the gun. The gun itself would be either double-action or hammerless single action, and without an external manual safety. A tactical flashlight with laser would be attached to it.

Possible guns: any full-sized Glock pistol; any full-size Springfield Armory XD handgun; a decock-only Ruger P345, P89, P90, P94, or P95; a decock-only Beretta Model 92 or 96; or a full-sized Kahr double-action-only pistol like the T9.

A revolver would also do well here; however you'd probably have to keep it loaded and have a speedloader or two handy. I think the best would be a revolver designed to use .45 Auto ammunition with full-moon clips. The use of full-moon clips allows very fast reloading, faster than a traditional twist-to-release speedloader. A S&W Model 22, 25, or 325 would serve well here. However any quality double-action medium- or large-framed revolve would do well, such as the Ruger GP100 or S&W Model 27 or 327. Revolvers also have the advantage of being simpler to use than semiautomatic pistols, an important consideration if somebody less "gun-nuttish" might have to use it one day.



For situation B, a semiautomatic shotgun would work pretty well, as would a more traditional pump shotgun. However, both suffer from lengthly times to load the tubular magazine. A classic short, double-barreled shotgun (a coach gun) is simple and quick to load but only gives you two shots before needing a reload.

A low-powered semiautomatic rifle with expanding bullets would work well in that you can simply insert a magazine and be ready to shoot. An AR-15, Ruger Mini-14, AK-47, or M1 Carbine would serve well in this manner. All have (or you can get) stocks that will hold lights and lasers. With some of they you can also stick a bayonet on the end, making your rifle a short spear and a pointy deterrent to somebody rushing you from close quarters.

[L0oniX]

119. Good info. My wife is a newb so that's a big consideration.

[gorfle]

106. Home defense and CCW

First of all, you seem to be continually downplaying long arms because they are not concealable.

Home defense weapons don't need to be concealable, and you don't need a CCW permit for firearms in your home. So for home defense, CCW is neither here nor there.

All firearms should be kept locked up. The risk of your firearms being stolen is greater than the risk of you using your firearms in self-defense. So all firearms should be kept securely under lock and key. Firearms kept for defensive purposes can be kept in a quick-access vault. They make small vaults that are finger-combination activated, and even fingerprint activated, just large enough to hold a pistol, that cost less than $200.

I also agree with not keeping a round in the chamber. It is a simple matter to rack the slide and this adds a measure of safety to the firearm.

Laser sights are very nice and also carry an intimidation factor that may make actually firing your weapon unnecessary.

I believe the best weapon for home defense is a shotgun. Mossberg, Remington, and others make short-barreled shotguns specifically for defensive use. Avoid the Mad Max-looking shotguns with only a pistol grip and no butt stock. They are brutal on the wrist.

Whatever weapon you choose, since your wife may be using it also you will want to make sure it is not too powerful for her to use without being afraid of it. My wife, for example, finds my .45 auto to be too strong and consequently she can't use it effectively as she is afraid of it going off.

[L0oniX]

120. We go camping so the CCW is a good thing to have. The CCW classes are good to have.

[gorfle]

145. I don't disagree.

I don't disagree with either of those points, but your original message was about home defense, and then in subsequent messages you were dismissing long arm suggestions as not being suitable to CCW.

If your requirement is now a firearm that can serve for both home defense and CCW use, you are pretty much limited to handguns.

[L0oniX]

150. I did say we were both taking CCW courses ...and that has implications.

[MilesColtrane]

109. A pistol gripped 12 gauge pump with a light attached to it.

I have one right next to my bed.

It takes about four seconds for me to grab it, sit up, thumb the safety, and rack a round into the chamber. The light is activated by a pressure switch on the forward stock.

[L0oniX]

124. That sounds good. What's the cost for that setup? I'm looking at about $600 ...

for the S&W 640 (new) with the ear muffs, cleaning kit, eye protection and ammo.

[MilesColtrane]

184. I paid just under $200 for the gun.

Ammo, clamp, and light were a little more.

[tburnsten]

263. How is that with 00 buck loads?

Seems like a pretty uncomfortable setup. Even the low-recoil Ranger 00 loads I like so much would probably be painful.

[iverglas]

112. wot a man

Call me a hypocrite but the thought of some dudes raping and killing my wife is ...well I am just not going to let that happen.

I would have thought she would be even more opposed to it happening than you are.

And yet you're the one getting the gun ...

The thought of somebody interfering with your valuable property must disturb her even more than the thought of somebody interfering with her bodily integrity, I guess.

[L0oniX]

122. Yea well tell that to the lady 2 blocks away who was just killed in her home.

[iverglas]

133. hmm

You reply to my post, and yet you don't.

I do love raving incoherence, I do.

[L0oniX]

135. O yea like your response is coherent.

My wife is the one who first suggested a gun and told me about the murdered lady.

If you want to fight people why not become a boxer or join the military.

[iverglas]

137. your wife

chooses to rely on someone else for her security, I guess.

Just the very thing that gun militants are all the time telling us is stupid.


If you want to fight people why not become a boxer or join the military.

That's okay. I think I've reached today's quota of raving incoherency, no more needed.

[jody]

146. Delete, mea culpa. n/t

[SteveM]

194. If you "love raving incoherence," why do you need a discussion partner? (nt)

[iverglas]

208. if you love pizza, why do you need a gun?

If you "love raving incoherence," why do you need a discussion partner?

Talk about raving incoherence.

Anyhow, I don't recall saying I did. So your application will be filed appropriately.

[L0oniX]

224. LOL

[Xela]

113. Armed pacifist here...

...you're not alone.

1911's in .45 ACP for home protection (loaded with Hydra shok 230 grainers).
Russian SKS's in case of zombie attack (123 gr FMJ, and HP)

Welcome aboard.

Xela

[L0oniX]

123. The 1911 is the only Glock with a safety but I am sure a .45 is too much for my wife.

[jmg257]

129. A 1911 is (typically) an SA only gun - usually carried cocked and locked, but certainly

can be carried/placed hammer down. They are available in smaller calibers. Anyway - they are usually very ergonomic for women, as they were designed when the average height of a man was 5-9". The new "micro" models also come in 9mm and have slightly shrunken dimensions. An all steel model would have some nice mass to suck up recoil.

I would worry about reliability though, and be sure to shoot the shit out of it before I relied on it too much.

[jody]

136. Do you mean a Colt model 1911 is SA or Single Action? Perhaps I misunderstand. n/t

[jmg257]

140. Generally that is what I meant, but some, like Para-ordnance brand, come in other trigger types.

The post I responded to had erroneously described 1911s as a type of Glock. Don't think they are making one just yet.

[jody]

141. OK, I've put many tens of thousands of rounds through a Colt model 1911 as a competitor. n/t

[Xela]

132. Don't underestimate the wife...

...I did.

Now she outshoots me every single time we go to the range.

I first bought her a Beretta 85F in .380 ACP when we got married and she had problems racking the slide.

Then she took a liking to one of my Colts from the get go and she said "you can keep the Beretta, I'm keeping one of your Colts".

Our friend's advice stands though: Practice with it as much as you both can and learn to clear malfunctions.

Xela

[jody]

134. Does Glock make a model 1911 in .45 caliber? n/t

[krispos42]

181. Not that I'm aware of, but Glock does make guns in .45 auto

The Model 21 for example. There's no shortage of companies making 1911-style handguns but Glock isn't one of them. If they were I'm sure Guns&Ammo would be all over it!

[pipoman]

179. I think you would find

that a full size or medium size 1911 in 45 would have much, much less recoil than your 642. The 642 is a great defensive weapon, it is not fun to shoot, especially with +p ammo. I have several handguns including a 638 (very similar to a 642). My wife shot them all and chose the Kimber Pro Eclipse solid stainless 4" 1911. Because of the weight, it is easy and fun to shoot, very light recoil. Recoil is determined more by the weight and balance of the gun than the caliber.

Creamed peas anyone? I shot this can with a .45.

[OutNow]

130. NO

Remember Plaxico Burres? If you needed any additional reasons for not owning a gun, I suggest he makes a powerful argument against hand guns.

There are way too many guns in this country for me to add to the total. I have upgraded locks, and a security system. I live in a safe neighborhood. I am not naive about criminals and have had two break-ins over the last 30 years. I don't care if they take my stuff. That's why I have insurance.
For personal protection I will take my chances.

[jmg257]

143. Plaxico makes a powerful argument for holsters, basic safety, and lawful possession - not much else

with regards to handguns.

[TheWraith]

157. Also not getting drunk while you're carrying, not chambering your pistols, and the safety switch. nt

[slackmaster]

152. Plaxico is proof that mamas shouldn't let their babies group up to be DUMBSHITS

And anyone who wants to carry a gun should only do so legally, after taking a safety course.

[SteveM]

196. "Two break-ins over the last 30 years"? Sounds like a dangerous neighborhood...

Your anecdote about Burres is not impressive except to those who are ignorant about guns.

Since you are concerned about "hand guns," would you recommend a shotgun? A rifle?

I try not to take chances with my personal protection, esp. when I can lessen the threat.

[tburnsten]

264. He is an idiot for not using a holster and grabbing for a falling gun

Nothing else.

[jody]

147. L0oniX, you waste your effort replying to most posts by anti-RKBA types. They believe in

surrendering to violent criminals.

[L0oniX]

149. I started this thread because I wanted to know what others use for the same purpose.

Yea there seems to be some here who are only here to fight and disrupt ...sad. They would change their minds if they ever get mugged or have their home broken into or know someone who was killed by a criminal with a gun.

[jody]

151. I gave my wife, daughters, & daughters in law S&W mdl 38s now available as mdl 638. They love them.

I think a Mossberg 590, 12 gauge, is good for home use and the women in my life learned to use them very quickly.

[iverglas]

169. Surprise!

They would change their minds if they ever get mugged or have their home broken into or know someone who was killed by a criminal with a gun.

I know someone who was killed by a criminal with a gun. I know someone whose 13-yr-old child killed himself with a gun. I've had my house broken into, and I've been considerably worse than mugged.

Maybe I'd change my mind if hell froze over. Can't say for sure.


Yea there seems to be some here who are only here to fight and disrupt ...sad.

Pfft. Would you like a bucket for those tears?

[OutNow]

170. Your post also asked IF, not just WHAT

If you had asked what type of weapon folks used, rather than if they use a weapon as well as what type of weapon, I would not have appended to the post.

FYI - I have had my house broken into twice in my adult life and I do know someone killed by a criminal during a robbery. I have never been mugged. I have had a gun pulled on me by the husband of a women I was involved with. He was drunk at the time. After about 45 minutes of talking with him he put his pistol back in his pocket. While some people might feel the lesson to be learned from this event is to carry a concealed weapon because you never know when you might need it. I didn't feel that way at the time (almost 40 years ago) and don't now. The lesson I took away from this is that there should be far fewer guns in this country and conflict resolution should be taught at the high school level.

BTW - there is also a lesson in there about taking up with a married woman. Not to avoid being shot by the angry husband, but because of the pain it caused the husband.

[L0oniX]

216. I asked IF because this thread was originally posted in GD.

[iverglas]

221. actually, you asked *whether*

but it's an interesting assumption that seems to be getting made: that a discussion forum about firearms POLICY would be peopled only by firearms OWNERS ...

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

183. Advantages and disadvantages of the S&W model 642...

I own an S&W model 642. Let me state that it is my favorite carry and home defense weapon. I agree with the advice your instructor gave you. However there are some downsides to the weapon.

First the advantages:

1) Light weight and small size. This weapon is very easy to carry concealed which means you will carry it more than a heavier weapon which would require a good holster, a good gun belt and clothing to conceal the weapon. When you just want to go to the convenience store late at night to pick up some milk or soda, it's very easy to leave your full sized weapon behind. I just grab my model 642 and the pocket holster and slip it into my pants pocket and I'm off. (Bad things do happen at convenience stores, especially at night.)

2) Marginal but adequate caliber. The model 642 can handle 38 +P ammo. Great advances have been made in self defense ammunition in recent years, making the smaller caliber weapons as effective as the older larger caliber ammunition.

3) No hammer. Allows pocket carry without the problem of snagging the weapon if you have to draw it.

4) Short barrel length. A longer barrel makes a weapon easier for a bad guy to grab and wrest it out of your hand. Of course, if you have to draw your weapon many instructors say you should plan on shooting it. Often in real life, merely showing that you are armed will end the incident with no one being shot. You make the decision to draw and point or draw and shoot. Not an easy decision and every situation is different. Shooting someone is nothing like you see portrayed in the movies. You can and probably will suffer psychological problems. It will change your life and quite possibly in a harmful manner.

5) Laser sight. You don't have to sight the weapon as you would with a firearm with conventional sights. You can pull the weapon and fire it without bringing it up to your eyes as you would with normal fixed sights. (You can "point shoot" a weapon with regular sights, but the laser should be more accurate.)

6) No safety to worry about. With any revolver there is no safety. (Note: there are a few rare exceptions.) YOU are the safety with a revolver. In an emergency you grab the weapon and pull the trigger. If it's loaded you can expect to hear a very loud noise. Even with practice in a true emergency, it's easy to forget to drop the thumb safety on a semi-auto (if it has one). I like the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid).



Disadvantages:

1) Light weight. The less the firearm weighs the more recoil you will experience. Firing .38 special +P rounds from a full sized S&W revolver is fun. Firing the same ammo from the model 642 is no fun unless you are a masochist. Many times at the range I would shoot someone’s handgun when they offered me the opportunity. I would ask if they wanted to try mine. When I was shooting the 642, the first time I offered they were happy to try it. After that, the common reply was, "No thanks." It could be argued that this is no beginner’s gun. To become proficient with a firearm you need to practice.

2) No hammer, double action only. Most shooters use single action (cocking the hammer) as the trigger pull is lighter and shorter. The double action trigger pull on the 642 is fairly long and heavy. Double action shooting takes practice to become accustomed to. Practice with this weapon is no fun as I mentioned. To master double action shooting on a revolver will probably take a considerable amount of practice.

3) Short barrel length. It's hard to accurately shoot at longer ranges with a short barrel as the sight radius (the distance between the front and rear sights) is short which magnifies any error in sighting the weapon. With a laser sight this should not be a problem.

4) The model 642 holds only 5 rounds. Many gun owners consider this far too few and believe the more rounds the better. They want at least 10 and prefer 17. This leads to the "spray and pray" theory of gun fighting. For a civilian 5 rounds should stop an attacker as most gun fights statistically involve 3 rounds. For law enforcement, the situation is different as they may face multiple opponents with considerable firepower. If you seriously believe you might have to take on an entire gang of criminals more rounds might make sense. You can carry a couple of speedloaders if you really fear you might run out of ammo. While speedloaders are slower than changing a magazine on a semi-auto, with practice you can reload quickly.



The biggest problem with the Model 642 is the recoil and the double action only trigger pull. I have some suggestions if you do buy one and find I am correct.

1) Buy a Model 438 Bodyguard which has an enclosed hammer which you can cock and fire single action. It's a very similar, but in my opinion a very ugly weapon. Practice single action for a while and once you have mastered it, move to double action. You model 642 laser grip should transfer to this gun.

2) Buy a new or used full sized S&W revolver in 38/.357 caliber and practice with it to gain proficiency. Use .38 target loads to start and move up to .357 rounds to get used to the recoil. Again practice single action, then double action. This weapon could serve as an excellent house gun. You should be able to find a laser sight to fit this weapon.

3) Purchase an S&W Model 317 Revolver. This .22 caliber revolver is very similar to the model 642, but you can practice and gain proficiency with much cheaper ammunition and much less recoil. You should be able to install your laser grips on this weapon with no problem. You can also fire single and double action with this weapon.

None of these solutions are cheap, but your object is to become capable of defending yourself with your firearm. Most people in your situation will just buy the weapon and fire it enough to pass a concealed carry course. I personally believe that if you take on the responsibly of owning and carrying a weapon you should be damn good at using it. If you have to draw your weapon and decide to merely point it at an attacker or home intruder, your demeanor and your confidence may deter a nasty situation. If you draw it and use it, or if merely pointing at the bad guy fails, your training and ability may save your life.

As far as war, I oppose any war unless it is totally necessary. War should always be the last choice and should never involve religious or political reasons let alone be fought for oil or territory. When all else fails and there is a direct threat to your country that you have ABSOLUTE intelligence to verify, then war may be necessary. If you do have to fight a war, then you fight it to win and you use all reasonable means available to win. You never try to win the war on the cheap with inadequate force. If you do win, you take all measures necessary to help the nation or nations you attacked.

Once you decide to fight a war, you fight until you win and you never withdraw until you do win. In that manner you show that you take war seriously and can't be merely outlasted by an opponent who is willing to wait until the war becomes unpopular with your citizens. To do so reveals your weakness and may lead to more war.

I have a similar philosophy for self defense. You never engage in a fight unless you or another individual is threatened with great bodily harm. You fight to win and use whatever force necessary up to and including lethal force. If you are successful in deterring the attack and the attacking individual is injured, you take every measure to save his life.

Examples of recent wars I consider unnecessary and avoidable: WW1, the Korean conflict, Vietnam and the latest War in Iraq. (The first conflict with Iraq is very questionable.)

WWII is, in my opinion, an exception as is our war in Afghanistan.



For more information on the model 642 and other j-frame S&W firearms visit:

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/m642.htm
http://hipowers-handguns.blogspot.com/2008/06/which-snub-for-carry-s-m642-or-638.html
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Making%20J%20Frame%20Work.htm
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Getting%20a%20Grip%20on%20J%20Frames.htm
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%20Snub%20Ammo%20Test.htm

[L0oniX]

188. Thank you very much. This is what I really wanted to get out of this thread.

You've helped me to make a better choice of defense weapon. My wife would most likely find the 642 difficult to adjust to with it having a large recoil. I wouldn't have a problem with it but her being able to use it competently is my main concern.

[spin]

199. My daughter also carries a snub nosed j-frame

She had a concealed carry permit but allowed it to expire. Several years ago she renewed it and was looking for a good carry weapon. Her ex-husband had ended up with her previous weapon after her divorce

We went shooting and I offered her the choice of my model 642 or an S&W model 351PD in .22 magnum. She found the recoil of the model 642 oppressive but loved the .22 mag. Now it's her carry weapon.

The 351PD is an extremely light j-frame revolver that has a hammer. It's not as good a weapon for pocket carry as the model 642.






I would prefer that she carry a larger caliber weapon, but many shooters including police have assured me that .22 mag is adequate. I've tried several times to temp her with other firearms, but she refuses to bite.

Another possibly for your wife is the heavier model 60 revolver, I don't believe Smith and Wesson offers any models with an enclosed hammer. I do own a model 60 with a 3" barrel which is my other carry weapon. The recoil with 38+P rounds is very comfortable and manageable. It will also fire .357 rounds although the recoil is stiff. When I offered this weapon to other shooters on the range, they enjoyed shooting it and were surprised with it's accuracy.It wasn't a "No thank you" gun on the second offer.

If you feel your wife needs an enclosed hammer, the model 640 might fit the bill. Normally woman's pants fit so tight that pocket carry is impracticable, but she might carry in a jacket pocket where the snag free design would be an advantage.

For info on the firearms S&W offers visit their Web site at:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&content=11001

The best idea might be to find a range that rents firearms and try some before you buy.

[ferris47]

204. I don't mean to intrude

Just posting because I think I can help the original poster. I have browsed this and many forums for many years and although I tend to lean right in most things I do NOT come here to muckrake or cause trouble. The fact is I gather my political / news information from a great many sources and try to make educated choices that are rarely driven by a partisan nature. I have gleaned some good information from this forum/web site D.U. and figured I would only post to help out the original poster.

That being said....

1st training and practice, practice and training. It is your job to be a competent responsible owner and if you don't feel you can be do not purchase an arm.

2nd remember to follow ALL the rules of safety and to secure your firearm from not only children but irresponsible adults.

After the above....

I would humbly suggest a 3-4 inch Ruger GP100 in .357 magnum. Put a set of laser grips on it and you are good to go. This gives you the simplicity of a revolver's manual of arms, the ability to shoot anything from mild powder puff .38s to crazy level .357 magnums. In a self defense roll the revolver is much less likely to be effected by firing in an odd position or at point blank range. The 3 inch GP100 is the perfect balance of heavy enough to absorb a great deal of recoil making it easy to shoot for both you and your wife while still being light/small enough to carry should you desire. It shouldn't break the bank either.

Remember to factor in the following to the cost.
-1 a few boxes of self defense ammo. One or two to keep and couple to familiarize yourself with.
-2 a decent cleaning kit.
-3 Some form of lock box for when you wish to lock up the firearm. Kids or no kids you WILL find yourself with folks in your home that you will want the firearm either in your immediate control or locked up. A small document safe works fine for this.
-4 practice ammo. Shooting is not like riding a bike it will degrade as a skill if you don't shoot reasonably regularly your skills WILL deteriorate.
-6 a half decent flashlight ALWAYS ALWAYS identify your target.

I hope this helps and I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion. I hope I haven't intruded or caused a stir.

Chris

One more thing. In response to "Am I the only seemingly hypocrite about killing?
"

If any normal person has ANY DESIRE to kill another human than there is something wrong with them. Self defense or legitimate last ditch uses of force may be necessary but should NEVER be welcomed or desired. Your desire to protect you and your loved ones does not make you a hypocrite and I would be more worried about you if you were spoiling for a fight so to speak. Stuff can be replaced you and your's lives cannot. Nobody should ever want to harm another IMO.

[L0oniX]

215. Welcome to DU.

[RamboLiberal]

219. Curious if you made a decision - please let us know

As a lady I think the bigger problem with the 642 is the trigger pull rather than the recoil.

I haven't tried 1 yet but I think the Ruger LCP looks like an interesting little gun. Dry-firing it at the store it seemed like it had a nice trigger pull. And you can get a laser for it too.

http://www.ruger.com/LCP/index.html

Did you guys go to a range that rents guns? That's one great way for your wife to try before buy and to see what she can shoot most accurately and is comfortable with.

[Statistical]

220. LCP is fine firearm but not as a first gun

I own an LCP for one reason and one reason only.
I am likely to take it where I would leave a larger weapon behind.



Pros:
good workmanship
compact, lightweight
nothing to snag
disappears into a pocket (always use a pocket holster)
.380 ACP is the MINIMUM stopping power for self defense (in my opinion)

Cons:
is a simple blockback design to nothing to absorb the recoil.
light weight doesn't shield you from recoil.
The .380ACP despite being a "lite 9mm" has a kick in a weapon this small
noticeable muzzle flip
after 30-40 rounds of practice it leave my hands hammered.
small sights and smaller sight radius

So the LCP is a good weapon for it's niche but it isn't for everyone.

I would recommend a larger weapon for home defense and leave LCP for CCW duty.
I keep a Springfield Arms XD 9mm that both me & my wife have trained with for home defense.

The LCP gets locked up at the end of the day.
Many companies make leather holsters with outline of a wallet for the LCP so even if someone noticed the imprint in your pocket they would assume it is a wallet.

I would also recommend the LCP for someone already experienced.
Practicing with the LCP is "no fun". If it isn't fun shooters will stop shooting.
Having another larger weapon (easier to control, less flip, less hammering) or a .22 target pistol is a good to develop the basics first.

[tburnsten]

223. I'm positive the LCP/Kel-Tec P3AT are locked-breech pistols

Just look at the ejection port, that lug that the chamber resides in and the very large, square, matching ejection port is the locking mechanism. The unlocked breech .380s are the larger and heavier, older style of pistols that are the same size as or sometimes even larger than our more modern subcompact 9x19mm pistols. The fact that the Kel-Tec/LCP only weighs in the eight to ten ounce range is why it has the recoil it does. I'm thinking about one for a pistol when I can't carry a compact or subcompact version of a service pistol, or maybe get one of Comp-Tac's holsters for them that is equipped with a neck-lanyard. Not exactly the most convenient or rapid draw, but it definitely gives a good way to carry when your clothing otherwise won't allow it.

[Statistical]

226. You are right.

I took another look and it clearly is a short recoil operation.

Someone once told me it was blowback and based on the substantial felt recoil the concept seemed to fit.

Regardless I wouldn't consider the LCP a beginner gun simply because I think the three most important things to good gun fighting are: practice, practice and practice. To develop skills and muscle memory I think takes 500-1000 rounds at a minimum.

Practicing with LCP is punishing for more than few mags of practice at a time.

I do like it though. I shot the Keltec and the LCP has better fit and finish. It "feels" like a higher quality product. It is my daily carry weapon. I wear buttoned shirt (tucked), tie, and slacks to work so there are not many ccw options. The LCP fits easily into a pocket.

[tburnsten]

230. I think that is the exact purpose of that pistol

Even with a tuckable IWB holster I don't really feel that comfortable trying to carry with a tucked in shirt that way, it just feels like I have suddenly grown a giant tumor on my hip, it isn't an issue with looser, untucked clothes.


I have a Glock 27 (subcompact .40) that I felt was pretty rough on me the first couple of times I fired it, it's still a rowdylittle devil, but I have learned to shoot it very well and now have a better grip for the little gun. I don't know if I could get to the same comfort and proficiency level with one of the tiny .380 pistols.

[L0oniX]

225. We've decided to go to a range that rents guns so she can find out what works good for her.

[Statistical]

227. Excellent idea. Important to find one that fits you and her. (n/t)

[jeepnstein]

231. Great idea.

Most of the women I know who shoot have a strong preference for either Glocks or Sigs. I can't think of one who's using a J-frame right now. Make sure she picks one that she doesn't limp wrist since that's the most common source of failures to feed on a pistol.

Kel-Tec makes a really neat compact 9mm for not a lot of money. They are geared towards the concealed carry crowd and every one I've ever shot was good to go. You should be able to buy a pair of Kel-Tec PF9s for about what S&W is getting for one J-frame.

Oh, and while you're at the range be sure to spend a few minutes with both a shotgun and an AR. You'll see what I mean about the AR being very easy to handle and aim. The recoil is just not an issue with one. I know money is an issue but my best suggestion would be his and hers Kel-Tecs with an AR15 at home where it belongs. Once the panic buying settles down you should be able to find an AR for a decent price. I got mine for around $750 a few months back.

[RamboLiberal]

233. Nice thing about the Glocks, Sigs, S&W M&P, XD, etc

is that they are very forgiving of being limp-wristed. I've been shooting 10+ years and never had any of them jam except for 1 stovepipe I got with a Sig when the shell bounced off a barricade and back in to the ejection port.

I know a lot of women who shoot one of the above and love them. I'm of the opinion that semi-autos are very reliable guns for even the beginning shooter.

It's some of the 1911s who are somewhat unforgiving of being limp-wristed. My first real gun as a woman was a Sig-228 9mm. I took a beginner's NRA course first. Then basically taught myself by a lot of range and dry fire time, listening to tips from other shooters, reading gun mags & watching gun instruction DVDs, shooting IDPA competitions and then taking some courses in Tactical pistol.

[L0oniX]

235. I'm going to look into the Kel-Tec PF9.

Nice price, concealable, cheaper 9mm ammo and can add on a Crimson Trace. Looks like a much better choice over the sw 642. Going to em out at the range.

[jeepnstein]

236. Laser aimers...

Are a bother. Have someone teach you to point shoot and you'll never have to waste money on fancy laser sites. Point shooting is the way to go. I find the lasers to be an exercise in frustration. They are really good at giving away your position so I guess they do give the other guy a sporting chance. That would be OK except this isn't a sporting contest.

[RamboLiberal]

237. Once you get a good laser adjusted to POA they are a nice tool

IMHO. They are very handy to point out your faults when shooting. They are nice in a dark situation where it is tough to see your sights. And they do have an intimidation factor. And they are good for those of us getting older where the vision and night vision isn't as sharp as it used to be.

Go out and do some night shooting and see how point shooting fares. I've done some night shooting and I sure did better with a good laser and/or light.

[jeepnstein]

238. I've done a few building searches...

as a training exercise where it was laughably easy to take out the guy with the laser aimer. You might as well have a neon sign that scream "SHOOT HERE". I've never encountered one on duty.

We do use them on our Tasers.

[RamboLiberal]

276. Yeah but a CCW I'm not going to be doing building searches

and the gun if brought to bear in an Self-defense situation for CCW is going to be used in seconds. If that laser enables the civilian to make a hit all the better. Plus the laser is a great training tool for the civilian to show shot placement, flinch, etc. both in live-fire and dry-fire.

[jmg257]

232. A little more advice...

Go to a store with a big selection. Handle each pistol you are interested in. Do research 1st of course for quality, price and features so you have some ideas to get you going, but nothing beats holding & dry firing the thing in your and hers own hands ('cept shooting them too). Ergonomics and feel play an important role, i.e. there will be big differences between grip angles & sizes on revolvers, Glocks and other autos.

Keep out the ones you like the best, and compare them right down the line. You should be able to narrow down to a few good choices. Don't forget quality & potential reliability, but pay attention to things like trigger pull (looonng and heavy? Light and crisp?), external safety? (is there one? easy on/off?), decocker? adjustable sights & grips? (more popular these days - extra nice for a shared piece) etc. etc.


Of course getting to actually shoot them is a great bonus, as the recoil, say, of a .40 Hk will likely feel different vs a P99 vs a Beretta Cougar.

Take your time - and use YOUR heads - don't get talked into something you are not sure of! Confidence in your choice is a big plus.

[RamboLiberal]

234. BTW, another thought - some of the new semi-autos

have interchangeable grip panels. For instance the S&W M&P I have has small, medium and large grip panels that come with the pistol so you can change the grip size for different hand sizes. They started doing that as a selling point to police and military to better fit female(and male) officers and soldiers who have smaller hands.

[guntard]

251. Hoo-ray! Another revolver fan!

A few notes on the disadvantages you identified.

1) Light weight. The less the firearm weighs the more recoil you will experience.

This is why I prefer the Model 640.



As I see it, the 642 should only be carried in situations where light weight is absolutely essential, such as in a woman's small purse. Sure, it will be unpleasant to shoot, but hopefully you won't be shooting it much anyway, except for practice.

But since it is important to practice, the heavier 640 is a better choice because it's less unpleasant to shoot than the 642. If the weight of the 640 can be tolerated, it's generally a better choice than the 642 for these reasons.

2) No hammer, double action only. Most shooters use single action (cocking the hammer) as the trigger pull is lighter and shorter.

Yes, when they are shooting in the range. With a revolver, during a self defense situation, you aren't going to have a chance to carefully pull the hammer back and deliver bulls-eye accuracy by careful breathing and lightly squeezing the trigger. You are going to yank that trigger back in a state of high excitement, at very short range. So there is really no reason for an exposed hammer on a self-defense weapon, it will never be used in single action mode. Since, in the event of self defense emergency, you will be using the weapon in double action, you may as well train in double action.

Many semi-autos, of course, are single action in normal operation. Except for the DA/SA models like the CZ75, and Glocks, these usually depend on mechanical safeties to be kept safely ready for instant use, another distracting requirement for the manual of arms. A double action revolver dispenses with these issues, always being ready to fire, with a hard trigger pull and no safety, and no confusion over whether it is in double action or single action mode.

3) Short barrel length. It's hard to accurately shoot at longer ranges with a short barrel as the sight radius

For a CCW weapon, this should not be a problem. You will not be shooting at long ranges.

For home protection, get a shotgun.

4) The model 642 holds only 5 rounds. Many gun owners consider this far too few and believe the more rounds the better. They want at least 10 and prefer 17. This leads to the "spray and pray" theory of gun fighting. For a civilian 5 rounds should stop an attacker as most gun fights statistically involve 3 rounds. For law enforcement, the situation is different.

Indeed. The single tactical advantage of a semi-auto over a revolver (aside from the former be a lot easier to clean) is magazine capacity. There is no other advantage and indeed there are a number of disadvantages. Magazine capacity is why semi-autos have been adopted by police agencies. And since, as you point out, it is far less important for personal protection, civilians adopt semi-autos mostly because they see them used by police and movies, or they are sold them by gung-ho gun store salespeople.

For CCW, the revolver wins hands-down.

[benEzra]

186. Mine is a S&W 3913 Ladysmith (compact 9mm); my wife's is a Glock 26.

The nice thing about the S&W is that it is a traditional double action (long, fairly heavy revolver-like trigger pull on the first shot, but subsequent shots have a short, relatively light trigger pull). It also has a manual safety, which I like because it provides an extra safety margin when holstering or otherwise handling the firearm. I am licensed to carry and chose the S&W in part because it is small enough to conceal easily without having to dress around it. It is also remarkably accurate by any standard. Its only downside is that is very low capacity (8+1).

My wife's Glock 26 is the subcompact version designed to fit a tiny 10-round double-column magazine. She chose that pistol because it is small enough to carry easily, and keeps a larger 15-round magazine in it at home where concealment is not a factor.

I also have a civilian AK in the safe with a magazine inserted, but I live in a brick house; in a non-masonry structure, a .223 or a shotgun would be a better choice for a long gun unless you choose your angles carefully (7.62x39mm is low-powered by rifle standards, but it still penetrates like a lightweight .30-30).

FWIW, a revolver is a very good choice, especially for a first gun, and S&W revolvers are IMO the best on the market.

For secure storage when it's not in use, they sell quick-access keypad handgun safes, or Sentry makes a heavy steel key-locked safe big enough for a handgun (about 8" high by 14" square, IIRC); I know that at least the latter is sold at Wal-Mart. And the laser is a good idea.

[pipoman]

239. My first carry

gun I bought 20 years ago is a 3914. Great gun. Perhaps the most accurate handgun I own. It is ideal to carry because of the single stack mag which makes it thinner than many other semi autos. I want a nickel Model 39 sometime.

[bluedigger]

240. Bersa .380

Just got my first gun last November. I was looking at the Keltec, but they have a pretty poor reputation for durability - they "shoot out" and fall apart fairly quickly, due to their small size, I guess. Okay for a carry gun, as long as you don't want to use it at the range. Next on my list was the new Ruger LCP. Better quality, a little heavier construction, but hard to find as they are so new. As noted above, the light weight makes for harsh recoil - still not a fun range gun. Also, already has a mfr. recall out. A friend let me try his Bersa - felt good in my hand - still small enough to be a convenient carry gun and the recoil, for me, is quite managable. Fun to shoot and as a DA/SA setup with the .380 ammo it is very quick to return to the sight picture. Has a good reputation for reliability/quality and a good price. No lasers though, but I'm not a fan of them, anyways. Three different safeties including a built in key lock and a mag release safety - probably one of the "safest" guns on the market. Check it out if you have a chance.

[DrCory]

245. Bulgarian Makarov...

Sturdy, simple, reliable, and a tack driver with Hungarian MFS. I have no problem with placing a bullet in the center mass of someone intending harm to myself or loved ones. That being said, I do what I can to prevent such a thing. I'm not looking for trouble, but unfortunately too many folks around my parts are.

[guntard]

250. I'm surprised you don't see these used more often for CCW

They are compact and well-made. I bought one when I was thinking about getting a CCW (never followed through).

I guess it's more important to pay three or four times as much for a Sig or a Walther.

Gun nuts can be as fashion-conscious as anyone.

[DrCory]

266. I Walked Into the Gunshop...

With enough cash in my pocket to leave with something far more "trendy", but after handling the selection, bought the Mak. The stock recoil spring was a bit weak, replaced it with a Wolff. A few more rounds in the mag would be nice, but if I can't get the job done with 8 without a mag change, I'm in real trouble.

[rangersmith82]

246. I also use a Glock 17

At home its in my lock box that can be opened by easy to find 3 pushbutton codes.

I also have a chem-lite attached to the box in case the lights are out.

As far as the wars...

We need to get out of Iraq and concentrate our efforts in Afghanistan.

[Retired AF Dem]

247. On my job I carry a Glock .45

carrying the big bucks for Loomis, if I'm attacked it will most likely be by more than one bad guy. My CCW and house gun it is a Ruger GP-100 4 inch revolver in 357 mag. If things get real serious on my personal time I also keep a Marlin guide gun in 45-70 loaded with 300 grain hollow points. I thank god in the forty years I have been carrying a gun I haven't had to use one against another person.

[oneshooter]

253. What you choose

depends on what you are comfortable with. My preferred CCW is a SIG 220 in 45acp, while my Loving Wife prefers a Colt LW Commander, also in .45 cal. As for the house, my AR-15 has a 20rd mag loaded with 50gr JHP, with a 30rd mag loaded with 62gr SS109 on the stock. Loving wife has her GI issue 30carbine with 15rds of 100gr JHP in the well and 2 more 15rd mags on the stock.
It is a personnel choice,find what you are comfortable with, learn to use it properly, and practice with it. At least 50-100 rounds a month. Both of us shoot competition with our CCW weapons every month.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Floyd_Droid]

254. Say "Hi" to one of my little friends...

I would like to congratulate you on your decision, because you have every RIGHT to arm yourself, that is what the 2nd amendment is all about. My weapon of choice is my Beretta 96 FS Vertec (40 Cal S&W) I do have others strategically hidden in the house in the event I was not able to get to my main.

I always tell new gun owners: "A gun doesn't protect you and your loved ones... YOU protect while using it"

Take time to go to the gun range, it would also be an excellent idea to have your wife comfortable shooting it too. Practice in different scenarios: ES: Shoot with one hand, Shoot with your weak hand, Shoot in low lighting, Reload with one hand.. etc.

[Klaxton1984]

257. From my cold dead hands>>>>>>

A Saiga 12 gauge with a 20 round drum.



CZ-75 P01



M1 Garand

[Fabio]

259. Welcome to DU

stopping by here between visits to AR15.com and Lightfighter will cause headaches due to dizziness.

[TheWraith]

273. Don't you find the drum on that Saiga excessive?

20 12 guage shells will weigh a lot, and that looks pretty awkward in terms of relative size. Do you really find yourself using it that much?

[Furyataurus]

275. Hey klaxton1984

is that a CMP Garand? That woodstock looks great! Also, I have shot a Saiga before but with only bird shot, how's the recoil with 00 buck and/or magnum loads????

[yay]

279. *drool

You sir has excellent taste in firearms.

[Fabio]

258. Yes. Springfield 1911 TRP

[rrneck]

261. Heh. Someone in the lounge has a thread

that will never die. I think you have one here too.

Remington 870 and Colt 1911.

[X_Digger]

265. Taurus PT-1911

I keep a Taurus PT-1911 in a drawer in my nightstand. We had a rash of home invasions last year, and that's when I started keeping it close by instead of in the gun cabinet.

[5shot]

269. You are setting yourself up to be killed unless you know how to Point Shoot

Your 642 has a barrel length of about 1 1/2 inches. If you include the cylinder say about 3 inches. So accuracy, unless you know how to Point Shoot, is very open to question.

If your room is normal sized, your chance of hitting a target even with a laser before an attacker shoots, stabs, attacks you is very open to question, due to the time involved. Look up the "Tueller drill" on the web.

You should be able to turn the lights on so you can identify the threat.

And you should be up and moving. Those who stand and deliver, usually "die" in FOF exercises (which you will be in one, and for real).

Also, in a real life threat situation at close quarters, even if you can see the laser, statistics say you won't look at the sights or the laser. You won't see the sights as you will loose your near vision.

And even if by chance the laser is superimposed on your point of focus at that time, which will be the threat, you will probably miss if you shoot, as the gun will torque down and around to the left as you crush it and the trigger in the act of shooting. That's what the literature says.

Also, the literature says you have to have the proper mindset to get the job done. Now, such thinking is open to question.

But since you are against war and killing, you mentally are setting yourself up for failure.

Since you have a house, you certainly could afford to live in an apartment or condo with some security, plus keep a trusty golf club by the door to fend off attackers. Get two golf clubs, a his and hers, and practice whapping the heck out of an old tire or such.

A gun is not a magic wand that will keep you safe.

[bigbadwolf]

270. Glock model 22 (.40 cal)

Also near at hand, a Surefire tactical flashlight (very bright). And cellphone. Always have cellphone in your bedroom and a bolt on the door. A busted down door is pretty good indication of harmful intentions, if not real protection.

[Furyataurus]

277. I have

an HK USP 9mm, my first handgun, next is a Marlin 336C 30-30, next is a Remington 870(pump) Synthetic shotgun 6+1 with a Hogue fore-end and a Mesa Tactical 6 shot side saddle shell holder, and finally an FNP40.

I also have a Surefire 6P LED (80 Lumens) and boy is she BRIGHT!!!!! I tested the light on my little bro and he kept hitting furniture and what not for a few minutes because he couldn't see!!!! lol. Also, "strobing" is a good tactic for when using a light as a weapon/defense.

[yay]

278. I think the officer is full of crap, but some good advice non-the-less

Glocks have no "traditional" safety. The saftey is a lever on the trigger itself. So in essence as long as you're not pulling the trigger the safety is always on. Problem with this is some instances of "glock leg" where someone inadvertently pulls the trigger as their pulling the pistol out of their holster.

Go to a gun store and talk with the owner and ask to try a few pistols on for size. If you're going to be activly carrying then you might look into a compact or sub-compact pistol.

The RUGER LCP is a good little pocket pistol. It's chambered in .380 auto and is a very reliable and accurate pistol. Inexpensive, but the sights on it suck. The .380 isn't the best but it will work. You'll have to practice a lot because shot placement is key with the small caliber.

If it's going to be a "dresser gun" than any full size pistol will work. 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP are all good calibers. 9mm is the cheapest, offering more practice. .40 S&W and .45 offer a little better terminal ballistics with expanding ammo. Try renting a few pistols and find one that you find shoots the best for you and your wife.

Personaly I'm a fan of the XDm 9mm, CZ-75 SP-01, and the Beretta M9 series.

[Taitertots]

282. My set-up

I've got a benelli nova pump action 12 gauge that I keep in the closet that is within reach of my bed. I keep four in the tube, five in the saddle, all OOO buckshot.

As a layer I also keep a .22 pocket pistol hidden in my living room, easily accessible. So when I answer the door at night I can have gun handy.

[dashrif]

284. Star

Firestar M40 the only hand gun I have now it's small, heavy(just over 30oz unloaded)and sa only the wife loves it. Just wish it was still made no need to air out the rest on the web.

I would like to get another and or a firestar plus in a starvel finish someday.

M43 9mm in blue


M40 40s&w in starvel