A Super Bowl party ends in agony as host is fatally shot-Stupid Gun handling

[RamboLiberal]

AS FIRST responders and police flooded a Mayfair street Sunday night during the Super Bowl, many nearby residents suspected that a game-day rivalry had gone wrong.

But, in reality, the mayhem on Bleigh Avenue near Crispin Street allegedly started with an off-duty cop placing a gun on a table and tragically ended with another man being charged with the murder of the cop's brother-in-law.

Christopher Donaghy, 27, the son of a Philadelphia police officer, had invited about eight friends and family members to his home on Bleigh Avenue for a Super Bowl party in his basement, according to police.

Donaghy's brother-in-law Christopher Surma, 29, an off-duty Plymouth Township police officer at the party, allegedly placed a gun he owned on a table sometime during the game, city homicide Capt. James Clark said.

Another guest at the party, Ronald Parncutt, 49, who lives two doors away from Donaghy, picked up the unattended weapon and "started toying with it," Clark said.

The 9 mm semiautomatic Glock, which lacked an external safety, discharged once while in Parncutt's hands, striking Donaghy in the back around 8:52 p.m. while he watched the game, Clark said.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20090203_A_Super_Bowl_party_ends_in_agony_as_host_is_fatally_shot.html

IMHO the cop who laid a loaded Glock on the table needs to be fired and charged as well!

[billybob537]

1. How stupid do you have to be to do that!

Leaving a loaded gun where anyone can grab it.
Here's a guy who realy shouldn't carry a gun!

[patrice]

2. I'll second that motion! nt

[CountAllVotes]

3. another dead person

due to a gun that should have never been seen. :argh:

[tvoss]

4. I wonder how long before we hear...

I pulled the trigger, but I didn't expect it to go off.

[FLyellowdog]

5. Requirement #1 for owning a gun...stupidity?

Guns don't kill people...stupid people with guns kill people.:mad:

[one-eyed fat man]

11. Glock is actually designed for morons

Only 3 rules for safely handling a Glock:

1. Keep your finger off the fucking trigger.

2. Keep your fucking finger off the trigger.

3. Keep your fucking finger off the fucking trigger.

Despite all this, when the Louisville and Jefferson County Metro police switched to Glocks a few years back that 1500 man police force had more negligent discharges in 14 days than 150,000 Kentucky CCW holders had had in 14 years!

To make a Glock fire, it takes a long, deliberate pull on the trigger. Perfect for those whose qualifications to handle complex machinery is minimal or whose inclination to become proficient is deficient.

Unfortunately, when stupidity and negligence combine, the tragedy is not confined to the deserving.

[gorfle]

13. I have to say ...

This reaffirms my belief that all semiautomatic pistols should have a safety.

I'm not comfortable with any semi-automatic pistol that does not have one.

[tburnsten]

25. Totally comfortable with mine

And with my CZ PCR, and FNP-9M, they have a decocker, no safety. My CZ 40B has a safety, but I am less comfortable carrying a cocked and locked gun than a DA unlocked action, so that is how it stays. My revolvers have no safeties either, like just about every other revolver ever made.


Personal preference, but I think his data regarding Kentucky officers shows how shitty their training program was, not how dangerous Glocks are. I am sure that the 150,000 permit holders carry more Glocks daily than that department does, yet they had less accidents in 14 years than the department did in, what did he post, two weeks? A year? Totally unnacceptable, but the Glock is not responsible for that, poor training is.

[one-eyed fat man]

27. clarification

What I said was:

"To make a Glock fire, it takes a long, deliberate pull on the trigger. Perfect for those whose qualifications to handle complex machinery is minimal or whose inclination to become proficient is deficient."

I didn't mean to imply the Glock was dangerous, rather that it is commendable in it's simplicity and very suitable for issuing to folks with minimal training. The average cop, or European military conscript, or any other person whose interest in guns is minimal is easier to train to some marginal or minimally acceptable level of competence with a Glock than more traditional pistols. Glock is often the choice of those who REQUIRED to carry a gun, while a 1911 is preferred by many who CHOOSE to carry.

The indictment is entirely on the abysmal training and the lack of practical gun handling skills of a disturbing number of police. There are a number of active IPSC, USPSA and IDPA clubs in central Kentucky and southern Indiana but only a handful of the shooters are cops. My experience has been most all the good shots I know got that way on their own time and dime, not due to departmental training. Departmental training is too often only designed to satisfy lawyers or administrators with a name and date on a training schedule.

When I was a kid they used to joke the local cops were so Irish, even their bullets were GREEN. (Coated in verdigris from being in belt loops for decades.) Would you want to hire a carpenter who hates hammers?

[tburnsten]

28. Love that carpenter line

Alright, I just can get a little bit teste sometimes from hearing about how Glocks are totally unsafe, despite the fact that they are at least as safe as any other platform and more safe than some. Granted it takes a little bit of practice to keep your finger indexed along the frame and not inside the trigger guard, but that is the same as every other firearm in existence.

[ManiacJoe]

21. Revolvers work the same way.

No external safety, long trigger pull. But this did not seem to be a problem back before all the police departments swapped over to pistols (mostly Glocks).

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

62. Double-action revolvers have a long trigger pull

Single-action revolvers usually have a short trigger pull, and can be a hair-trigger.

Glocks are somewhere in between, but more like the single-action pull.

It seems stupid to me to have the safety in the middle of the trigger, but what do I know?

(Well, I know it's probably not good when a drunk football-watching cop leaves his gun on the table in a room full of other drunks - there oughta be a safety rule about that one)

:hi:

[guntard]

18. The shooter was not a gun owner.

Or so his behavior would indicate.

[Vinnie From Indy]

6. Killer Party Dude!

Another horrendous tragedy visited upon a family because of stupidity and firearms.

[gorfle]

7. Criminal negligence.

It's criminal negligence, plain and simple. It was criminally negligent to leave a loaded, chambered firearm lying around on a table at a party, and it was criminally negligent to pick up and handle a firearm without knowing how to properly do so.

Q: What's the very first thing you do when you pick up a firearm?
A: You work the action to see if it is loaded.

Q: When do you put your finger on the trigger?
A: Only when you are ready to actually fire the weapon.

Q: When handling a firearm, where should the barrel be pointing at all times?
A: In a safe direction.

These are basic, fundamental rules of firearm safety that I have known since I was nine years old. I've never once had an accidental discharge of a firearm, in spite of having been handed weapons that turned out to be loaded when I did not expect them to be.

I'll never forget the first time I broken open one of my father's shotguns, during the habit of checking to see if it was loaded, and a couple of snap-cap (dummy) shells flew out at me. I nearly crapped my pants. Always check.

[spin]

9. One time when my step father handed me his .45 auto...

I asked him if it was loaded. He replied, "No". I checked, and there was a round in the chamber.

I inherited that weapon. It's a beautiful nickle plated Colt .45 suto, the World War II European Theater Commemorative Model. Since he fired it, it really doesn't have much collector value.

I always go by the rule that every gun is always loaded until YOU check it.

[X_Digger]

12. Whenever any one asks me..

"Is this loaded?" I always tell them yes, whether or not I know it is.

[Vinnie From Indy]

24. I do as well!

I have never, ever told anyone that a firearm is not loaded.

[slackmaster]

8. Four simple rules that should be taught in public schools

1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.

2. Never allow the muzzle to point at anything you are not willing to see destroyed.

3. Be sure of your target and know what lies behind it.

4. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned on target.

You have to violate two or more of these rules simultaneously to cause a negligent shooting.

[guntard]

19. Dude! You got Rules #3 and #4 reversed!

[SteveM]

22. When hunting, I reverse #2 and #3 (nt)

[slackmaster]

48. They're all equally important, and violating any TWO of them can cause an accident

:nuke:

[krispos42]

10. A Glock is exactly as safe as any double-action revolver

It's designed to ONLY go off when the trigger is pulled. The gun did exactly what is was designed to do.

Safety begins between the ears.

The cop should have either kept his gun in his holster or in his car. I don't know if he's at legal fault or not (the shooter was an adult) but he's morally at fault.

[alexandria]

15. Finally some sanity..

Yes the gun goes off when you pull the trigger..Duh.
I am sure alcohol was involved and that is not a good mix.

[tburnsten]

16. it does get frustrating hearing that Glocks are somehow "unsafe"

from people who usually don't have the slightest clue why. Lack of a manual safety? well does that make the S&W Model 15, 10, 60, 64, 28, 27, 29, 21, 22, or any other model unsafe? How about the Ruger SP101 or GP100? Colt Python? Any of the other host of DA autos with no off-switch other than passive safeties?

[gorfle]

26. Why I like a manual safety.

Manual safeties provide a measure of safety against someone who is unfamiliar with firearms picking up a firearm.

Yes, I like weapons like the Glock, the 1911, and the XD/XDM series of pistols that have a grip safety or a trigger safety, or both.

These safeties work great at stopping the firearm from firing unless the trigger is pulled. They do not, unfortunately, provide any safeguard against people who don't know better pulling the trigger.

I don't mind revolvers not having a manual safety, as it is mechanically obvious, even to a layman, when you pull the trigger on a revolver that something is happening. You see the cylinder turn, and you often see the hammer cock. There is a visual indicator that something is happening as you pull the trigger.

But with many semi-automatic weapons, as you pull the trigger there is no indication as to what is actually going to happen until you hear either "click" or "BANG".

I suspect this is what happened to the shooter at the party. He probably didn't know anything about guns. He probably picked up the gun, assumed it was "safe" (or it wouldn't have been left sitting out on a table), and pulled the trigger to try it out. All the Glock's safety features worked fine, and the gun functioned just as it should. But it didn't slow down the guy who didn't know what he was doing.

A manual safety at least throws up a mechanical obstacle to people who would simply pick up a firearm and pull the trigger to see what would happen, like kids or other uneducated people like the shooter in this thread. It's not fool-proof, as someone who didn't know what they were doing might start thumbing other switches on the gun, too, but at least it stops the impulsive "let's pretend to shoot the gun" type of accident.

[guntard]

30. Why I like a revolver

No safeties at all. Less confusing manual of arms.

[one-eyed fat man]

31. trigger safety and Glock

the trigger safety was such a great idea that Iver Johnson "copied" it from Glock in 1897.

Ruger's use of the transfer bar ignition system came long after Iver Johnson "Hammer the Hammer" advertisements proclaimed in the 1880's.

Iver Johnson was an innovative manufacturer of budget priced firearms. While not as glamorous as the big service models from Colt and Smith & Wesson, 5 shot break action revolvers like these were the common "house guns" town-folk kept in sock-drawers or on nightstands from just after the Civil War until about the middle of the 20th century.

[gorfle]

32. I've got one of those.

I've got a .32 "lemon squeezer" that was made in 1904. It was my great-uncle's. Mine has a grip safety though, not a trigger safety.

[one-eyed fat man]

34. most likely, it is a S&W New Departure.

The Safety Hammerless models were developed in the 1886 after D.B. Wesson heard that a child had been injured by cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger of a conventional revolver. He worked with his designer son Joseph to make a gun that would have an adult-grip compression safety on the handle and require a trigger pull too strong for a child to pull through.



In later years, Harold Wesson told the story of being handed a revolver and told to pull the trigger. Not wanting to disappoint his grandfather, the eight year old managed to pull the trigger, whereupon the old man had more work done.

There is considerable collector interest in these old S&W revolvers. Guns manufactured before 1898 are not considered firearms under Federal law.

[gorfle]

35. Yup, that's the one.

That's what I have. Mine is in better shape though. I'm amazed at the machine work that went into these older pieces. Every part of the gun is stamped with the serial number - I suspect all the pieces were individually fitted. I got a letter of authenticity for mine. It was delivered to Hacket Hardware Store in St. Paul, MN in July 1904. Can't remember the day.

.32 S&W is hard to find at the store anymore, I'd have to order it special through the mail.

I nearly had a ka-boom with this pistol about 6 months ago. I found half a box of .32 in my ammo bins, so I took it to the range. As I was firing, I noticed that the shot did not sound right. I was not sure though as someone else on the range had fired at nearly the same time. I broke open the pistol and sure enough - it was a squib load and the bullet had lodged in the barrel. I'm glad I checked. I easily pushed the bullet out with an aluminum rod back home.

[one-eyed fat man]

50. pays to be careful

I load black powder cartridges for my guns from that era. A friend got me involved in shooting BPCR matches and we have been making the trip to Montana to shoot the Quigley match for almost 15 years now. It is a hoot to take an old Army issue 1873 Springfield rifle and hit a life sized buffalo target a half-mile away more often than not. Learning the techniques and skills with tools our great-grandfathers took for granted has been a lot of fun.

[spin]

38. If you like the "lemon squeezer" you might like the new S&W model 40...

and you can get it in a nickel finish:


or a color case finish:




For a review of this firearm visit:
http://averagejoeshandgunreviews.blogspot.com/2008/06/smith-wesson-model-40.html

or:
http://www.hendonpub.com/publications/article/?mag=TR&articleId=207016&articleLoc=Other+Featured+Articles

[guntard]

40. What's the point of a safety on a double action concealed hammer revolver?

I'll never figure that one out. Sounds like something else to go wrong when you don't want tit to.

[gorfle]

42. What's the point of a safety on any firearm?

I like the grip safeties on my S&W and 1911s, XD's, etc. Unobtrusive, and function whenever you naturally grip the firearm.

[guntard]

47. But those pistols you mention are single action

A safety makes all kinds of sense on any firearm that operates primarily in a single action mode (such as a pump shotgun, etc).

But a safety on a double action revolver, that can't be operated in single action mode, seems like a marketing gimmick.

Note that many SA/DA pistols don't have safeties, they have decockers. The weapon is carried in double action mode, and goes to single action after the first shot. When the threat is gone, the pistol is once again decocked back to double action mode. No safety required or desired.

But I am veering off topic for the Gungeon here . . .

[spin]

45. I agree...

but some might like the additional security, although it's unnecessary. The S&W model 40 is a "throwback" firearm probably designed more for collectors.

I feel comfortable with carrying my S&W model 642 Airweight in a pocket holster. I don't fear an accidental discharge.

[gorfle]

41. I'm switching to black powder.

My next gun is going to be a James River Armory 1853 3-band Enfield. I'm going to use some of my income tax return money for it. Cartridge ammo has just gotten too expensive to shoot. I only go about 4 times a year, but at $200 a pop, that's $800 I could put to better use.

I've got a pair of CVA 1851 Navy revolvers to use, too. They are slow to load, which makes a nice, leisurely afternoon of shooting instead of pushing magazine after magazine into my guns and blowing through $200.

I'm going to look into making my own blackpowder and bullets, too.

[spin]

46. You could always consider taking up reloading...

for your firearms that use cartridge ammo.

Reloading would save you some money after the initial cost and can be an interesting and enjoyable hobby. Quite often, after some experimentation, you can tailor ammo that is more accurate in your firearm then store bought ammo.

Since you're not shooting a tremendous amount of ammo every year, you could buy a complete set up for a little more than you spend at one range session.

I used a RCBS Rockchucker press with great results for many years.



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.gunaccessories.com/RCBS/Presses.asp&usg=__z2nWbv5AjyAC2MgJ4JddhMXTyeo=&h=222&w=216&sz=9&hl=en&start=18&um=1&tbnid=si9-g9_WhhCUaM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drcbs%2Brock%2Bchucker%2Bkit%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

[gorfle]

49. I have a Lee Reloader

I actually have a Lee reloader my Dad bought me for Christmas about 5 years ago that I've never taken out of the box.

When I looked at the price of bullets, primers, and such it didn't seem like the savings were worth it.

A 250-round brick of Remington .45 ACP goes for about $82 at Walmart currently. That works out to about $.33 per bullet.

Looking over at Midway USA it looks like I can get 500 plain lead bullets for about $80 - say $.16 per round. Primers you can get 1000 for $30, or $.03 each. So for bullets and primers you're looking at about $.20 per bullet, not including powder. I guess that is a pretty good savings, but instead of spending $180 for an afternoon's worth of ammo instead I'll be spending maybe $130? It's still a lot of money for an afternoon of shooting, and basically it's money that is literally burned up.

Every time I get the hankering to head to the range I cringe at the thought of telling my wife I want to go blow a hundred or so bucks on ammo.

[spin]

51. It's still a much cheaper hobby,

than say deep sea fishing (requires a boat).

My experience with handgun shooting is that after about 125 rounds I started to lose my concentration. I would usually start out with 25 rounds or so of .22 through my Ruger target pistol, then I would run 100 rounds of ammo through my chosen weapon for the day. Usually a .38/.357 mag revolver or a 1911 .45 Colt pistol.

I usually went shooting once a week and enjoyed the conversations with the other shooters as much as the actual shooting.

I enjoyed the reloading because I could produce an extremely accurate .38 or .45 target load. I found a load for a .38 hollow based wadcutter bullet in a .357 mag case. I was able to fire this very light load through my revolvers without developing the nasty little ring that develops in the cylinders when you fire .38 rounds in a .357 mag revolver. These rounds were not commercially available.

And when I decided to take my .44 magnum to the range, I could reload light target loads to full power loads. The really big savings came when I reloaded full power .357 or .44 magnum rounds. True, you can get a fairly good deal on generic ammo at Wal-Mart, but often the ammo is not as clean burning as the reloaded ammo and often less accurate.

But I haven't reloaded for the last few years as I don't have a convenient range near me. It's quite possible that the cost of reloading has jumped dramatically.

[gorfle]

52. On bullets.

I love to shoot pistols for accuracy, so it is interesting to me to develop bullets that are very accurate for my firearms. That would be fun.

I usually shoot my heaviest stuff first, as it makes flinching disappear on lighter guns later. :) I start with about 100 rounds of .44 mag, then I shoot my .45, then I plink with my .22. I don't find the .22's much fun to shoot, though, because there is so little recoil. To me a lot of the fun of shooting is the mental discipline required to hold steady in between powerful rounds. My favorite gun to shoot is my S&W model 629 .44 mag. I shoot white-box Winchester loads in it from Walmart.

[spin]

55. Many good shooters have told me that the .22 is hard to shoot...

because the lack of recoil makes it hard to take shooting the firearm seriously.

I also own a S&W model 629. Mine is the Power Port version.



I prefer the Patridge front sight over the ramp style. I also own a .357 model 686 Power Port, my favorite and most accurate target revolver.

I do remember that when I first started shooting I had a problem with the recoil of a .45 auto. I bought a .44 mag Ruger Super Blackhawk and shot it for a while. After shooting the big Ruger, the recoil on the .45 auto never bothered me again.

[gorfle]

56. LOL

LOL, I'm the same way. After shooting the .44 mag, everything else is tame.

I got some Hogue grips for my 629 for Christmas. Haven't had a chance to try them out yet though.

[spin]

57. Hogue grips are very comfortable...

The best grips I've seen on a .44 mag were Tauris grips. I was offered an opportunity to try 4" .44 Taurus on the range and I was really surprised how the grips reduced the felt recoil.

[TheWraith]

33. Precisely.

I don't know why some people are so reluctant to encourage the use of a manual safety.

[gorfle]

36. Reluctant use of safety.

I suspect it is out of fear that when they go to use the firearm in an emergency the weapon will be on safe and not function.

My Ruger P-90, which is my home defense pistol, is always kept on safe. I make it part of my training drill to actuate the safety before firing.

Anyone who did not like a safety, though, could always just never engage it.

So I'm a big fan on safeties. But I think I am more paranoid than most concerning gun safety. For example, I have never brought myself to like the "cocked and locked" method of carrying a 1911. I'm pretty convinced from hearing people talk about it that it is probably pretty safe. But as much as I prefer manual safeties, I've also been raised to never trust the safety on a gun. So carrying a gun with a round in the chamber, cocked, with only the safety in place (OK, two safeties on a 1911) makes me nervous.

Myself, I never leave rounds in the chamber. If I carried, I might.

[TheWraith]

37. That's my thinking as well--if you don't want it, you don't need to use it.

Personally I don't have own pistol (at least not yet--I'd like to try it out, but I can't afford it right now) but I would prefer having one which had the option of a manual safety. Anyone who's really practiced with their weapon should also be accustomed to flicking the safety off. It's also the best way if you do feel the need to carry "ready for action." I wouldn't carry chambered either, but if I was really needed to, I'd rather have a manual safety available.

[rrneck]

39. I've only carried

on two occasions and both times the 1911 was cocked and locked. It made me nervous as hell and I practice with it in that condition. It stays at home hammer down and a round chambered.

[spin]

44. For a 1911 style carry weapon. "cocked and locked"...

is probably the best way to go. I can understand the reluctance to carry in this manner. I personally carry a S&W Model 642 Airweight .38 snub nosed revolver in a pocket holster. I tried carrying a .45 auto when I first got my concealed carry permit, but the damn thing was so heavy and uncomfortable that I rarely carried it.

If I did decide to carry the .45, I would carry "cocked and locked", but I would invest in a holster like this one.

DeSantis Cocked & Locked Thumb Break Scabbard 1cl

With a two-slot design the 1CL allows you to carry your Government Model .45 auto in cocked & locked position. Featuring highly detailed, precision molding, it makes this beauty a great choice for the trained professional. Not recommended for operatives without advanced handgun training with single action autos. Belt slots are 1 ¾” wide.

* Model: DESANTIS1cl
* Shipping Weight: 1lbs
* Manufactured by: DeSantis
http://www.rimindustries.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1cl

[rrneck]

14. Well, now he's staring down the barrel of a huge civil suit. nt

[guntard]

17. Another victim of firearms ignorance

Another guest at the party, Ronald Parncutt, 49, who lives two doors away from Donaghy, picked up the unattended weapon and "started toying with it," Clark said.

If Ronald Parncutt had been an experienced gun owner, or had had firearms safety training in high school, this tragedy would never have happened.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

20. Of all the people, at any time, to leave any kind of gun sitting out in the open...

A cop, a Glock, and at a party. :wtf:
What a moron. I'd have to say the day's result is about 75% his fault.

My Glock is plenty safe and it's loaded/chambered almost all the time.
When I disarm I remove the holster with the gun and put both in the nightstand.
Leaving any type pistol just lying around with a round chambered is dumb.

And some representatives feel we should rely on 911/police for our self defense?!?!?
ROTFLMAO

[alexandria]

23. we should rely on 911/police for our self defense?!?!?

Dials 911
Hello..Help my house is being broke into please help

I am sorry could you repeat that again.
My house is being broken into.
Your house is broken?
They are coming up the stairs.
What stars are you talking about.

Loud gunshot..

Hello caller are you still there?

[iverglas]

43. I'll bet

that was supposed to be funny.


we should rely on 911/police for our self defense?!?!?

You should?!?!?!?!?!?

Who told you that?!?!?!?!?!?

You should probably box his/her ears.

How would you rely on a third party for your SELF defence, anyhow?!?!?!?!?!?!?

If a third party defended you, it wouldn't be anybody's self-defence .......

[alexandria]

53. You know i never reply to idiots.

but this time i will make a exception....
What the fuck are you talking about??

[iverglas]

54. well, I always do

You know i never reply to idiots.
but this time i will make a exception....
What the fuck are you talking about??

I actually know nothing about you, and if you want to know what I was talking about, I suggest you read the post of yours that I replied to. Quelle surprise - that was what I was talking about.

[alexandria]

58. Thank you.

My first person on my ignore list....

[iverglas]

60. oooooooh

No signed authographed pix for you, then.

Ignoring beats answering all to hell, don't it?

[guntard]

29. It's not unusual, most cops are very relaxed around guns

For many cops, there is nothing particularly dangerous about the mere presence of a handgun. They are simply tools of their jobs. They might leave them casually laying around their own homes the way another man with another job might leave a hammer or a saber saw laying around. All dangerous weapons in the wrong hands.

The cop's real mistake was not realizing there would be someone at the party dumbass enough to go fucking around with someone else's Glock. Any cop should know better: there is always a dumbass around.

[alexandria]

59. I read your guntards and this is the best you can end with....

"We might lose many of our gun rights along the way. But it is no more than most of America’s gun owners deserve. And there are more important things in life anyway".
WTF?


District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. ___ (2008) is a landmark legal case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects an individual's right to possess a firearm for private use. It was the first Supreme Court case in United States history to directly address whether the right to keep and bear arms is a right of individuals or a collective right that applies only to state-regulated militias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

[guntard]

61. You don't believe there are more important things in life?

And I'm not sure what your point is about Heller. Four out of nine justices do not believe the right to bear arms is an individual right (just as four out of nice justices do not believe in the right of habeas corpus), and those that do don't seem to be any too emphatic about it. Our civil rights are only as good as the government's willingness to uphold them, and I don't see much progress in that arena, from the Congress, the President or the Judiciary.

[tburnsten]

63. Yes, apparently only five of our justices can read.