Arkansas Considers Allowing Concealed Weapons In Churches

[tucsonlib]

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Arkansas_considers_allowing_concealed_weapons_in_0214.html


"Lord, bless this gun and all the hydra-shok hollow-points resting within....."

[BlooInBloo]

1. What? Like there's EVER been a problem mixing religion and guns?

:rofl:

[Lint Head]

2. Pray the bullet is true and straight. Pray it kills because God is great.

Now I lay me down to die and I the last one in Hell to see you fry.

:evilgrin:

Killing is what it's all about.

Myself? I prefer life over death any day.

[spin]

17. Your post reminds me of the comments by the "security guard" in the

New Life Church in Colorado Springs after she stopped a shooter.


When asked by a reporter if she felt like a hero, Assam said, "I wasn't just going to wait for him to do further damage."

"I give credit to God," she said.

Assam described how the gunman, Matthew Murray, entered the east entrance of the church firing his rifle.

"There was chaos," Assam said. "I will never forget the gunshots. They were so loud."

"I saw him coming through the doors" and took cover, Assam said. "I came out of cover and identified myself and engaged him and took him down."

"God was with me," Assam said. "I didn't think for a minute to run away."

Assam said she believes God gave her the strength to confront Murray, keeping her calm and focused even though he appeared to be twice her size and was more heavily armed.

Murray was carrying two handguns, an assault rifle and over 1,000 rounds of ammunition, said Sgt. Jeff Johnson of the Colorado Springs Police Department.

"It seemed like it was me, the gunman and God," she said.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html

[tburnsten]

21. Well if you are a spiritual/religious person,

then the feelings and reactions to being in a gunfight and winning would probably feel an awful lot like your spiritual guidance was at least partially responsible for helping you survive.


I don't know though. Just my guess.

[spin]

23. Probably if I found myself in a situation like that...

I would become very religious, very fast.

[tburnsten]

24. I keep hearing that there are no atheists in foxholes... N/T

[iverglas]

3. well, it would be a lot more convenient

Nobody'd have to do their clinging serially. Get it all done with on a Sunday morning ...

[spin]

4. There have been church shootings

just a few examples:

When the congregation of Wedgwood Baptist church, in Texas, sat down in preparation for evening services the night of Sept 15, 1999, quite likely the last thing running through anyone's mind was that a man would enter the building and shoot at least 45 bullets from a nine-millimeter semi-automatic handgun inside the sanctuary before turning the weapon on himself.

Probably none of the 7 persons shot and killed thought to himself earlier that day, "Today is the last day of my earthly life."

**********snip*********

Now, zoom forward to March, 2005. It is a Saturday night and the Living Church of God congregation at the Sheraton Hotel sees nothing out of the ordinary as a member of the congregation walks in.

Then, all in the space of about one minute, he opens fire with a 9mm gun and kills the pastor, the pastor's son, and five other church members. Four others lie wounded, and Terry Ratzmann, 44, has killed himself.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/10733

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- "It seemed like it was me, the gunman, and God," said Jeanne Assam, describing her feelings as she confronted a man who charged into her Colorado Springs church Sunday firing a weapon.

Assam, a church security guard with law enforcement experience, fired her own weapon at the invader and stopped his attack, police say.

Police on Monday identified the gunman as Matthew Murray and said he was also responsible for an attack earlier Sunday at a missionary center some 80 miles away.

The two incidents left four people dead, in addition to the gunman, and five wounded.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html

So obviously being in church is not a guarantee that you are safe from violence. If your state does not allow concealed carry in churches and declares them a "gun free" zone, you are more likely to be a victim of a church shooting. "Gun Free" zones attract mentally deranged shooters.

[iverglas]

6. cause-and-effect, correlation, my sister, my daughter ...

"Gun Free" zones attract mentally deranged shooters.

Actually, places where people assemble, particularly places and people against which deranged individuals hold grudges, attract deranged shooters. Schools and churches and their attendees commonly fall into that category.

Most such individuals plan to die themselves in any event. I'm sure they prefer to kill themselves, but they're obviously aware of the chance of someone else killing them.

Of Canada's two most famous, Marc Lépine killed himself after killing 14 women engineering and injuring about as many other people, and Kimveer Gill killed himself after police interrupted his plans by shooting and injuring him before he could do more than kill one people and seriously injure some others.

The idea that such individuals will be deterred by the off chance that someone on the premises will have a firearm is rather silly.

I expect that individual churches would be able to opt out of any permission granted by legislation, and that many if not most would.

[spin]

7. There are not enough mass shootings or surviving shooters...

to gain insight into how concealed carry affects the planning of the deranged individuals who commit these crimes.

It's difficult for me to imagine planning an attack on a group of innocent people. But if I was suffering from a serious mental disorder but still was capable of some reasoning, I believe that I would avoid targets where I might encounter armed individuals. On the other hand, my anger might be directed at a church or a religion or a particular institution such as a school or college. In that case, I might ignore the threat.

If a shooter did enter a church where one or more worshipers were carrying weapons, there is a good chance that lives might be saved. At the minimum, the shooter wouldn't be able to just continue shooting people like ducks in a shooting gallery. He would have to concentrate on stopping the armed individual which at the minimum give other people a chance to flee.

While I rarely attend church, if I did I would carry my concealed weapon. Concealed carry in a church is not prohibited in Florida. I know one very religious individual who does carry in his church. (He carries everywhere that's legal.) If the pastor asked me not to carry or posted "no firearms" signs, I would find another church.

As far as the religious aspects of carrying weapons:

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36

edited to correct spelling

[iverglas]

8. why bother replying to a post

if you are going to ignore what was in it?

But if I was suffering from a serious mental disorder but still was capable of some reasoning, I believe that I would avoid targets where I might encounter armed individuals.

It is well known -- and I said -- that a large majority of the people who commit these acts are intending to die.

Your response completely fails to address that point.

The likelihood of there being anyone carrying a firearm among the ordinary congregation at a church service, let alone multiple people, will be low no matter what the law allows. Whether that individual will be able to stop someone else from continuing to shoot people in the room is a matter of pure conjecture.



As far as the religious aspects of carrying weapons: ...

Fascinating. No concern of mine.

[spin]

14. The shooter, while he may plan to die...

wants to take as many people with him as possible before he dies. If he merely wanted to get killed he would commit "suicide by cop".

For example:

Cops were called to St. Mary's Ave. in Rosebank about 6:55 a.m. after witnesses saw Aiello outside his home screaming and waving a gun.

"Jason, drop the gun!" at least one of the responding officers hollered.

Aiello was warned a second and third time. When he failed to comply, he was shot in the head.

"He was a cop," a police source said. "He knew what to do when ordered to drop his weapon. It looks like suicide by cop."
http://www.policeone.com/suicide-by-cop/articles/1717818-Retired-NY-Sgt-killed-in-apparent-suicide-by-cop/

So I believe you are correct when you say that

a large majority of the people who commit these acts are intending to die.

However, they don't merely take their own life or lacking the courage to do that, prompt an encounter with the police.

"These killers are not necessarily loners, but turn to murder when something happens to shatter their world," forensic psychologist Dr Keith Ashcroft said.

"They want to appear to be superhuman and controlling and powerful, to go out in a hail of bullets... The whole thing is a suicide even though you are killing people in the process.

"Suicidal people often internalise their anger, but with murder/suicides, the anger is turned outwards as well as inwards."

Virginia Tech killer Cho Seung-Hui does appear to have fallen into the loner category, with his murderous ramage set off by some real or imagined slight.

And he has traits common with other high school killers; a lack of self-worth, a desire to be recognised, a macabre drive for the biggest body count and, crucially, premeditation, the killing sprees are planned in advance. underlining mine

True, the likelihood of a armed worshiper in the congregation might be slim but there was the incident of the "security guard" in the Colorado Springs church. Jeanne Assam faced an intruder with two handguns, a semi-auto rifle and 1000 rounds of ammunition. Had she not stopped this shooter, many more people would have died.

But while she was called a security guard, she appears to be a volunteer with a concealed carry permit:

Boyd said there are 15 to 20 security people at the church. All are volunteers but the only ones armed are those who are licensed to carry weapons.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html

_______

Assam has been treated respectfully by the media, but she hasn't been praised enough. In a more common-sense world, she'd have been the cover of every mainstream magazine under the banner headline "hero." Instead, Assam has been characterized thousands of times in media stories as a "security guard," and a former big city cop who performed well under pressure. This portrayal, while technically accurate, can be counterproductive.

Assam was a "security guard" only in the loosest sense the phrase. She wasn't paid. She didn't have a badge. She wasn't wearing a uniform. If she was a "security guard," so is any citizen who's licensed to carry a gun.

**********snip**********

When remembering the tragedy of Dec. 9, 2007, remember it like this: A year ago, a private citizen with a gun saved the lives of hundreds of people a deranged gunman planned to kill. The woman, with only a small-caliber handgun and a few rounds, stopped a heavily-armed maniac. A year ago, an ordinary person put her life on the line so that others might live.

Jeanne Assam did what any level-headed, responsible citizen could do with the proper preparation and motivation. Do not remember her actions as the work of just some "security guard."

We don't need more cops and security guards to keep us safe. We need more responsible, ordinary, average citizens to take responsibility for the safety of themselves and others - as Jeanne Assam did.
http://www.gazette.com/opinion/assam_44596___article.html/security_guard.html

[57_TomCat]

19. Deterrence is not the point.

iverglas said: The idea that such individuals will be deterred by the off chance that someone on the premises will have a firearm is rather silly.

The key is not that the offender may or may not be deterred. It is instead what an armed citizen (or official) might be able to do to prevent the offender from continuing the rampage. You also stated: "...Kimveer Gill killed himself after police interrupted his plans by shooting and injuring him before he could do more than kill one people and seriously injure some others." I believe Gill would have probably done the same thing had the armed responders been regular citizens in lieu of the local constabulary.

This is a perfect example of how a "armed" citizen can prevent further bloodshed. I as a police officer know that I am most likely NOT going to be around when the stink hits the fan. I also know that the vast majority of mass shootings are stopped when ARMED people show up. Bad guys often kill themselves or quit when they find out they have a fight on their hands. Well I am for allowing more citizens to be armed as a first responder to assist the bad guys with making that decision.

[ManiacJoe]

5. Smart move considering that

churches are common places for mass shootings by the Bad Guys.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. What about the separation of church and state?

[Statistical]

10. Not following what does seperation of church and state have anything to do with it?

Does requiring a church to have handicap parking spaces violate separation of church and state?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Not seeing how allowing CCW to carry in a church violates the 1st?

Also most states have some statute that allows private property owner (any private property owner including Church Board) to prevent legal carrying on their property.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

11. I was thinking about it the other way.

It would seem to violate the separation by not allowing them to make their own rules. I think the current law may be unconstitutional.

David

[Statistical]

12. I see. I agree.

A church should be considered any other private property a specific restriction on a church that isn't made on say a Mall or Store or place of business I would consider an unconstitutional statute.

[Endangered Specie]

13. The Lord advises you switch to HST hollow points

[tburnsten]

22. Replaced Gold Dots with them actually

The HST is just such a well designed bullet. Almost behaves like a bonded round through barriers, but round for round is a consistently better expander than any competition.

[Endangered Specie]

25. I heard they are pretty good, but Im a bit stick to the old fashioned Hi-Shoks

[tburnsten]

26. ATK is going to start cracking down on their distributors

HST and Tac Bonded is going to be really difficult to find soon, though they have plans to eventually release it in 20-round shitboxes like Gold Dot. Pisses me off, but at least I've got enough already to stock my carry guns.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Is there a law in Arkansas that bans carrying firearms concealed in Churches?

Or is this a case of stepping on the rights of the church authorities, or any other private party to specify what can and cannot be brought onto their private property?

[spin]

16. Arkansas laws currently prohibit carrying a concealed weapon in churches...

Where Concealed Handguns are Prohibited:

********snip*******

16) Any church or other place of worship;

And state law bans carrying concealed weapons in establishments with "no guns" signs:

(19) (A) Any place at the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of the place by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten (10) feet that “carrying a handgun is prohibited”.

B) (i) If the place does not have a roadway entrance, there shall be a written notice placed anywhere upon the premises of the place.
(ii) In addition to the requirement of subdivision (19)(B)(i) of this section, there shall be at least one (1) written notice posted within every three (3) acres of a place with no roadway entrance.
(C) A written notice as described in subdivision (19)(A) of this section is not required for a private home.

And you even have to notify a homeowner that you are "packing heat" when you enter his residence.

D) Any licensee entering a private home shall notify the occupant that the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun.
http://www.asp.state.ar.us/divisions/rs/rs_chl_law.html

I would assume that if the law were changed to allow concealed carry in churches, the church could still post signs prohibiting firearms.

[petronius]

18. Good. Why should religious institutions be treated any differently than other

private organizations? Unless there is a clear societal interest in regulating this particular type of activity space, then let the churches themselves decide on their own policies...

[tburnsten]

20. It wasn't legal before?