Student expelled for having drill-team prop rifles in car

[Howzit]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/13/school-gun-case-sparks-cries-for-common-sense/

Marie Morrow, an honors student and drill-team commander in the Young Marines, isn't the kind of student who normally gets expelled.

But she's now awaiting the results of Thursday's expulsion hearing after leaving three rifle-shaped props, used for drilling, in the back of her car at Cherokee Trail High School in Aurora. Colorado law mandates expulsion for any student found with a "dangerous weapon" on school grounds, which includes "a firearm facsimile that could reasonably be mistaken for an actual firearm."

The case has galvanized Coloradans as the details play out on talk radio, editorial pages and even the state legislature. State Sen. Kevin Lundberg, a Republican, said he plans to introduce legislation that would provide an exception to the law for prop weapons used by military-sponsored youth groups.

"There should be exemptions to this hard-and-fast rule so this type of thing doesn't happen again," Mr. Lundberg said in a statement. "I am outraged that a student faces expulsion for participating in a drill team."



A pity that stupidity isn't painful...

[Hugabear]

1. A bigger pity is the militarization of our high schools. n/t

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

2. Drill teams=militarization of high schools, that's pretty funny.

[Hugabear]

3. The OP article expressly refers to "Young Marines"

If that isn't militarization, then I don't know what is. And it's not only that, but all the JROTC programs in thousands of high schools throughout the country, and the military recruiters that spend so much time on high school campuses preying on children.

[iverglas]

4. how nice to see

someone with sane priorities drop by the Guns forum. ;)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

5. As opposed to your insane priorities?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. That's the name of their group.

In my experience participation is fairly low. I don't think you have much to worry about.

David

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Young Marines, in my experiencel, is not done by the schools

[gorfle]

20. Young marines is not school-affiliated.

I'm pretty sure that the Young Marines, which is the subject of this article, are not school affiliated.

[X_Digger]

7. Why yes, all those new ROTC programs..

that started in oh say, 1916..

pffft.

Google National Defense Act of 1916

[Hugabear]

8. I never said "new" JROTC programs

nice try

[DoctorMyEyes]

9. i'm with you

I think all this zero tolerance bullshit needs to be rescinded.

And in this particular case I don't think you can hand a kid a toy gun for a school sanctioned function and then scream bloody murder that a kid had the toy gun on school property. WTF!?!?

How's about rethinking WHY we are handing them toy rifles in the first fucking place? It's like a case of when idiotic policies collide. Too bad innocent kids are the victims of this shit.

[TheWraith]

10. "Zero tolerance" also means "Zero intelligence."

It means honor students being expelled because they brought Advil to school, or in this case the props for a school function.

[marksmithfield]

11. When I was in High school

A friend of mine offered to sell me a rifle. He carried it to school, along wit three boxes of ammo, throughout the morning classes sold it to me in the lunchroom and I carried it throughout the afternoon classes till school ended then walked home with it. Was a sweet .300 Savage. I feel sorry for these kids, the adult world has gone nuts and they are suffering for it.

[jeepnstein]

22. Similar experience...

We had to check our shotguns in and then pick them up to go hunting after school. It only happened during squirrel season.

Then there was the time one of my buddies was showing off his new "AR15" off in the parking lot. The principal came over and asked him nicely to put it away. It was an Armalite AR15, the one with slick sides and the "happy switch" and completely legal. These days the entire area would have been put under quarantine until an entire generation had passed.

[marksmithfield]

29. That is the best line I've read in months!

I'm laughing so hard I can't respond1

[TheWraith]

26. The sad part is, it's in many ways a creation of the media.

The paranoia over school shootings is much like the paranoia over child abductions. The media blitzes a few high-profile cases, making them seem like they're the rule rather than the exception. For instance, they never tell you that the vast, overwhelming majority of child "abductions" in the US are carried out by parents or family, usually as part of a custody dispute. A mother has custody of the kids, the father picks them up from school and takes them to the park without telling mom, it's an "abduction."

In the case of school shootings: the fact is that if you look at the averages, kids are vastly more likely to get killed driving or being driven to school than they are by somebody going nuts and shooting up the place. But because of the terror that the media inspires in parents, schools adopt these absurd sorts of measures in order to make it seem like they're doing something. Reasonable precautions are one thing, but once you reach the point where common sense and human decision-making is pushed out of the process, you've gone too far.

[paulsby]

47. true dat

statistically kids are safer IN school than they are going to or from school OR in the home.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Actually the presence of the military in the schools is continuing to decline

The number of ROTC/JROTC etc are at record lows

[Retired AF Dem]

38. When are you going to hugabear?

I wanna watch.

[Indy Lurker]

12. dangerous weapon?

The thing I don't understand about these zero tolerances policies, is the part where they includes "a firearm facsimile that could reasonably be mistaken for an actual firearm."


Either an item is dangerous or it's not. It's different if an item is being brandished as if it was real, but there are real laws to deal with that, such as disturbing the peace, or disorderly conduct.

A prop rifle is no more a dangerous weapon than a stuffed tiger is a dangerous animal.

[marksmithfield]

30. Someone could have gotten a splinter

and a nasty infection!!

[FLAprogressive]

13. How moronic....and as usual the gun grabbers change the subject....

[davepc]

14. Good thing they got these menaces out of high schools

Somebody might bump their head.

[gorfle]

19. Their rifles were a bit more realistic.

Still, there was no cause for expulsion.

I could see someone perhaps investigating the rifles to make sure it was not some cache of weapons planted for another school shoot-up, but after finding that the items were not real, the issue should have gone away.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. In many marching bands, they use both sabers and fake rifles as props

They get tossed around and thrown, as the MB guard units do their part of the show. The band versions of rifles have no external metal on them.

[Howzit]

24. School bands should not be allowed to play victory marches or any other

music that has been played by military or police bands. That would make as much sens as getting into a twist about the school sanctioned activity of using drill "rifles".

Then there are those military looking uniforms worn by band members that can only mean one thing - don't know what it is, but I am sure these kids are wanna-be killers.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. I assume you left off the sarcasm tag...

[Scout]

18. a firearm facsimile that could reasonably be mistaken for an actual firearm

I can see it now ... some poor student is carrying their fake but real-looking weapon and some asshole with a real gun in their pants thinks they're saving the world by taking out a potential shooter!

when the poor kid gets killed, then the victim would be blamed for carrying a realistic-looking weapon

[gorfle]

21. Yes, Virginia...

Yes, Virginia, people who brandish fake weapons can indeed be shot in self-defense, and the person doing the brandishing is indeed to blame.

[Scout]

27. "self-defense" from what, precisely? n/t

[gorfle]

28. People who appear about to shoot you.

"self-defense" from what, precisely? n/t

Defense from people who appear about to shoot you, of course.

Did you know that if you rob a bank with a fake gun you will still be charged with armed robbery?

It is quite legitimate to use deadly force against someone who you think is about to use a deadly weapon against you - even if in reality it is fake.

[iverglas]

31. so what *is* your point??

It could be justified for someone to kill a student carrying a realistic-looking drill rifle.

Okay.

So it's not a good idea to prohibit such objects on school property?

[gorfle]

39. I didn't have a point.

I was not attempting to make a point. I was answering Scout's question concerning why even people with fake guns can be shot in self-defense.

[Scout]

32. i knew all that .... even a fake gun can get you shot ... so why was the OP making

fun of the rule against having fake weapons on campus by commenting that "stupidity should be painful"?

i believe i was originally speaking to the OP, who is not named gorfle.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

23. one more reason

to make sure all teachers are packing!

[jmg257]

33. Have you ever seen a drill prop rifle? They are usually pretty piss poor "facsmililes."

[Scout]

34. way to totally miss the point of the exchange n/t

[jmg257]

36. Way to fantasize about a gun-grabber's wet dream.

'Cause we KNOW how often this happens in the REAL world...

some poor student is carrying their fake but real-looking weapon and some asshole with a real gun in their pants thinks they're saving the world by taking out a potential shooter!

Especially a "potential shooter" 'armed' with plastic and wood-wrapped up in duct-tape PROP DRILL RIFLES .


:crazy:

[Scout]

42. way to still totally miss the point of the exchange

in a typical paranoid gun nut fashion

:puke:

[jmg257]

43. Maybe because the only point made was...made up. Not much of a point then. IMAGINE that!

And not nearly worth being paranoid about.

:boring:

[iverglas]

45. a rerun of Pellet-Gun Bill, I think

Time for the hilarity to be relived, anyhow.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x10520

[Howzit]

35. How likely is it that a citizen with a gun in his pants will

shoot at members of an actual military marching band, as they appear in public with real rifles, parading down main street to celebrate some government sanctioned event?

Not very likely because the uniforms, orderly procession and music are a give-away that this isn't a bunch of dangerous people. The school kids are not in the military, but the same logic applies.

If you fail to see the logic then the last part of the OP was for you.

[lepus]

37. Also add to the fact that marching bands

have their roots in military history.

[spin]

41. Highly unlikely...

I have a carry permit and have seen people on the street with actual rifles. I had no immediate thoughts of drawing my weapon and saving the day.

Of course, I watched their actions and determined that they were hunters merely taking the weapon from their vehicle to a store or their home. Had they pointed their weapon and started to shoot, my attitude would have changed. First I would have found cover and called the police. Further action would depend on the situation and how it developed.

And I often see marching bands with military student groups carrying rifles on the street in front of my house. This little town loves parades and has a parade on almost every holiday and a homecoming parade. The parade is preceded by police and fire trucks with blaring sirens.

[iverglas]

44. you have magical powers

Scout said:

some poor student is carrying their fake but real-looking weapon

and you just KNEW she meant to say:

members of an actual military marching band, as they appear in public with real rifles, parading down main street to celebrate some government sanctioned event

Remind me to call on you next time I can't figure out what someone is trying to say.

[Furyataurus]

46. How

utterly ridiculous she got expelled for THAT!