Dude with a shotgun tries to jack Akron pizza shop, gets shot and killed by CCW-licensed owner

[Pullo]

Click on the link and check out the videos at the bottom right of the page.

Pizza Shop Owner Will Not Be Charged In Fatal Shooting

The owner of an Akron pizza shop will not face charges for shooting and killing a robbery suspect.

Akron police said they have closed the case and prosecutors say Johnny Haynes acted in self defense.

Last month, Patrick Finney, 20, pointed a shotgun inside Your Pizza Shop on West Exchange.

Hayes, who has a concealed carry permit, shot Finney seven times.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/19400841/detail.html">Link

[biermeister]

1. 7- no longer a lucky number nt.

[tridim]

2. Seven, apparently no longer an excessive amount of shots.

The guy was obviously within his rights to defend his business, but did he have to shoot the guy seven fucking times? Does the NRA teach this technique?

[biermeister]

3. Not sure the NRA was actually involved-

I am unsure how I would react if someone pointed a shotgun at me. I suspect that I might just keep shooting until the noise stopped.

[DonP]

4. Always "shoot to stop"

The standard protocol is to shoot to stop the threat.

Even an injured felon on the floor with a gun in their hand is still a potential threat to the lives of everyone involved.

Most instructors I've worked with indicate that, if you are forced to engage, you keep shooting CoM until the person is no longer any threat. That can be anything from dead to wounded and has dropped the weapon they held.

[jeepnstein]

6. You shoot to stop the aggression.

There's no such thing as counting your shots or trying to fire a warning shot in the name of fairness. You don't aim for the knee caps or use a trick shot like the Waco Kid. Once the adrenaline kicks in you just have to rely on training. Gun fighting is not like they show on TV and in the movies, which is apparently where many get their information.

The Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy teaches it that way, stop the aggression. Wouldn't know about an NRA course.

[dairydog91]

7. Unless you've been through extremely rigorous training, 7 shots isn't excessive...

Yeah, I'd expect an ex-Delta Force type to accurately put two rounds through the chest and one through the head, but it's not unexpected that a rookie would just pull his gun and keep hammering the trigger until the target goes down. In a panic situation, you can easily fire 7 rounds in just a couple seconds (Literally, a couple of seconds, as in 2 or 3).

[ManiacJoe]

8. There is no magic number.

You shoot until the threat is gone.

In this case the owner shot the robber four times; he went down, got up, was shot three more times, then ran out the door and collapsed across the street.

Contrary to what Hollywood might have you believe, handguns are carried for convenience, not because they are good man stoppers.

[east texas lib]

9. Please brief us on proper shooting etiquette pertaining to these situations...

By all means.

[jeepnstein]

14. Well...

You shouldn't go over and start kicking the guy once he's down and no longer a threat. Do not call a taxidermist. It's bad form to thrown down the Ace of Spades on the guy you just shot. Urinating on the poor fellow is not advised. Do not pose for a picture like Ernest Hemingway.




:+

[imdjh]

21. Why would anyone be happy to have killed a lion?

I don't get it. Another headline was "first woman to kill an elephant with a bow"/ She must be very proud of herself.




common criminal

[jeepnstein]

23. In Africa...

legitimate hunters pay through the nose for the privilege of hunting big game. Their money is part of what helps finance anti-poaching efforts. You may not agree with the hunting of African big game but legitimate hunters are not criminals. The poachers the threat now. In the past, it was wealthy Americans and Europeans shooting everything in sight but those days are long gone.

[imdjh]

24. I appreciate what you are saying- but I am irrational when it comes to elephants

and whales.

BTW- That woman killed that elephant in Zimbabwe, so I have little confidence that the money spent went to any cause other than that piece of shit Mugabe and his crime family.

[gorfle]

25. Sorry for the topic derail...

Sorry for the topic derail, but I agree with you. These "big game" hunts make me ill.

I'm all for hunting, provided you eat what you shoot. Most of these safaris are nothing but rich people getting a thrill out of shooting a large animal. They usually try and make it look better by saying, "The meat was donated to local tribesmen" or some such which is all well and good, but for the amount of money they spent on their safari to go shoot animals they could have fed them much better for much longer by just mailing a check.

I think hunting should be something impartial and detached, not thrilling and fun. You are acquiring food, which should be no more exhilarating than picking up a steak at the grocery store. I think "big game" hunting is just thrill-seeking pleasure derived from killing.

[east texas lib]

27. Agree, nt

:thumbsup:

[benEzra]

10. Concealable pistols trade energy for small size; a 9mm has about 1/10 the energy of a deer rifle

and unlike in the movies, firearms do not blow people out of windows or slam them to the ground when they are hit. Obviously, the attacker did not go down from the first shot, or the fifth. And this may not have even been something as powerful as a 9mm; a .25 ACP out of a Beretta Jetfire or Bobcat has approximately 1/40th the kinetic energy of a deer rifle.

Given that the shotgun the robber was using could fire nine 9mm projectiles or a dozen .33 caliber projectiles with a single pull of the trigger, it was pointed at the victim according to the story, and the robber only had to twitch his finger to unleash them all into the victim's body, shooting to stop was indeed legally and morally justified. Potentially lethal force is justified to stop an unlawful, imminent, lethal threat, and continues to be justified until the threat is stopped. He wasn't shooting to defend his business; he was shooting for his life.

Also, an offensive shooter (or someone taking a defensive shot from a position of cover or concealment), who can take their time to line up the shot and shoot slowly and deliberately from a stable position, may need only one shot to incapacitate someone. But if you are racing someone who is already pointing a shotgun at you, you don't have the luxury of slow, deliberate fire, and you may have to shoot on the move.

[Hoopla Phil]

11. You do NOT stop pulling the trigger until the danger is gone.

That means that a well practiced (regulated in the terms of our forefathers) person can easily put 7 rounds into center mass in 2 seconds.

When I was shooting IPSC we did drills that consisted of 5 targets. When the buzzer went off you were to put 6 rounds in each target center mass while reloading between targets as fast as you could.

[Pullo]

15. Would six have been enough for you?

[pipoman]

16. EVERY DEFENSIVE FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR TEACHES

THIS TECHNIQUE>>>>>

"I shot him 3 times. He went to the ground, then came back up, so I shot him 4 more times. He then went 150 yards before collapsing."

As usual you couldn't give a flying fuck about the FACTS, you are ruled by emotion completely on this issue.

[Tim01]

18. You don't know what you are talking about, do you?

Been watching a lot of Peoples Court?

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. Yes, he did- and yes, they do. He was defending his LIFE, not the pizza sauce

A shotgun at close range is about the deadliest hand-held firearm there is. Seems the shop owner did
the right thing.

[Israfel4]

20. You would be surprised to see how

long it takes to shoot/fire 7 rounds. Less than 2 seconds, 3 seconds at the most.

[krispos42]

22. It's a dangerous situation, tridem, and a harsh world

People don't generally get flung backwards and die when a handgun bullet hits them. Contrary to popular media, handguns aren't particularly powerful or effective.

Except for a head shot, it takes at least 12 seconds or so for a person to bleed out into unconciousness. This means that a person can be physically capable of continuing the fight even with a serious gunshot wound or two.

Bullet impacts typically trigger the fight-or-flight instinct, and when people become aware of the fact that they are shot the psychological impact is profound, usually involving running for cover or medical help, trying to plug the wounds, or simply collapsing. However, people have to become aware of the fact that they are shot first. Sometimes people are seriously wounded with gunfire and don't notice until some time afterwards, leaving them still operating more-or-less normally during that time period.


If the situation has deteriorated to the point you are forced to open fire, you keep going until the attacker is no longer a threat. Running away, down on the ground, or hehind cover. In this case, 7 shots from a handgun can be done in about 3 seconds without much difficulty. Hell, there's a guy that can shoot 8 rounds from a revolver in less than one second!

And remember, the guy was facing down somebody with a shotgun. The bore of a shotgun is big enough to stick your thumb in, and it's POWERFUL. One blast from a shotgun has as much energy as all 7 of those bullets that were fired, which is an excellent incentive to put as many bullets in the shotgun-holder as quickly as possible.

[rl6214]

26. Just how do you see the NRA

as being involved in this? Do you have a hardon for the NRA?

[yay]

31. Can't resist showing your ignorance can ya? nt

[MikeE]

5. I have friends that live near there

The crime has become crazy over the last few years. I'm pretty sure if the store owner hadn't shot the robber, he may have ended up dead himself.

[Hoopla Phil]

12. Chalk another one up for the good guys!

[jody]

13. Disappointing that anti-RKBA DUers who need to know such facts remain ignorant because they are

afraid to visit DU's Guns forum.

[Israfel4]

17. Shoot to stop or shoot till threat is neutralized

Shotgun > pistol. Good shoot for the store owner. I wonder how he's holding up emotionally??? Hope he's doing well.

[slackmaster]

28. Tragic waste of human life

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be pizza store robbers.

[GKirk]

29. I'm kind of surprised that ...

...the 911 operator seemed so surprised when the caller (store owner) said that he shot the robber.
"YOU SHOT HIM!!!" she says. And then she doesn't ask a very clear follow up question "Where did you shoot him at?".
To which he responds "I shot him right in front of me" then she finally asks "Where in his body?".

FWIW the store owner sounds awfully calm considering what just happened.

[Pullo]

30. Several fellow Ohio CCW holders have been supporting his shop

Apparently his employees have CCW's too, and several Akron LEO regularly go there.

Probably the safest pizza joint in Akron. ;-)


Mr. Hayes fired 7 shots from his S&W 9mm, all of which connected, at a distance of 6ft or less. He was using FMJ's, which explains how the perp was able to get up and run out of the store making it a block before finally succumbing to his wounds.

There's a long thread about the incident at http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29852">Ohioans For Concealed Carry, where the where Mr. Hayes himself drops in to thank those supporting him.

[GKirk]

32. Freudian slip perchance?

"There's a long thread about the indecent"

I'm assuming you meant to say 'incident'.

[Pullo]

33. LOL

Thanks:hi:

[Statistical]

34. FMJ???? Unless law prohibits JHP there is no reason not to use them.

JHP have come a long way.

In early 80s they routinely would clog and fail to expand or they would expand too far and break into pieces.

Mordern ammo like Federal HST is very reliably and consistant.

Not sure why owner had a personal defense pistol loaded w/ FMJ?

[Pullo]

35. Agreed, FMJ is not the ideal ammo for self defense

Plus, its more dangerous to people nearby because it's likely to penetrate through whatever it hits.

One at least one shot passed through the robber, leaving a hole in the storefront glass. Luckily it didn't strike any civilians outside or cars on the road.

The owner has obtained some JHP ammo from others since the shooting, and I think someone said he's carrying a .45 now.

[lepus]

37. I agree

9mm using fmj has a bad habit of overpenetrating.

.45 has a little more kick due to the size of the projectile but does not overpenetrate near as bad.

Using expanding hollow points in either 9mm or .45 would have ended this fight much quicker and safer for the good guy.

[Endangered Specie]

36. yikes, of all the pizza places and he picks the one where everyone is legally packing...

bad luck

good shoot