REPORT: Hawaii has lowest gun death rate

[Winterblues]

Source: Sun Herald

http://www.sunherald.com/218/story/1328367.html
Report: Hawaii has lowest gun death rate
HONOLULU -- Hawaii, with its strong gun laws and low rate of gun ownership, has the lowest gun death rate in the nation, the Washington D.C.-based gun control group Violence Policy Center said Wednesday.
<snip>
"More guns means more gun death and injury. Fewer guns means less gun death and injury. It's a simple equation," said Kristen Rand, the center's legislative director.
<snip>
Louisiana was followed by Alabama (57.2 percent household gun ownership, 16.9 deaths), Alaska (60.6 percent, 16.3), Mississippi (54.3, 16.3) and Nevada (31.5 percent, 16.2).
Each of the five states had a per capita gun death rate far exceeding the national rate of 10.3 per 100,000, and each state has weak gun laws and higher gun ownership rates.

Read more: http://www.sunherald.com/218/story/1328367.html

[LakeSamish706]

1. Thats because Hawaii has this....

[baldguy]

5. And gun worshipers can't just go across an imaginary line to buy weapons & carry them back.

More proof we need real national gun control laws.

[applegrove]

47. Exactly. People cannot easily import illegal guns. It isn't as though Hawaii has a low crime rate.

Just a low gun death rate.

[rl6214]

118. Actually it's as easy to import firearms into Hawaii

as it is to import them into any state. You can fly with guns in checked baggage and they do not check once you land in Hawaii whether you have any guns.

[villager]

78. Exactly -- there's no "Virginia" to Hawaii's D.C....

n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

114. Hell yes, sign me up.

I always wanted to play 'Escape from Hawaii'. As long as they are killing each other with fists and feet it's all cool, right?


In Hawaii in 2007, the rate of reported offenses for the violent Index Crimes of robbery and
aggravated assault decreased 2.3%, and 3.7%, respectively, while murder and forcible rape
rates rose 11.8%, and 3.9%, respectively. There were 3,545 violent Index Crimes reported
in Hawaii in 2007, representing a rate of 276.2 offenses per 100,000 residents.

The number of statewide Index Crime arrests increased 10.9% in 2007. Arrests for violent
Index Crimes and property Index Crimes increased 7.4%, and 11.8%, respectively.

Twenty-five murders were reported statewide in 2007, up from 22 reported in 2006.
Females comprised 44.0% of the murder victims and 16.7% of the alleged offenders in
2007. The breakdown for the relationship between victims and offenders in 2007 includes:
stranger, 24.0% (6); unknown relationship, 20.0% (5); immediate family, 20.0% (5);
acquaintance, 16.0% (4); spouse, 16.0% (4); and girlfriend/boyfriend, 4.0% (1).

Of the 3,168 murders, robberies, and aggravated assaults reported statewide during 2007,
50.1% were committed using strongarm weapons (i.e., hands, fists, and feet), 23.5% with
“other” or unknown weapons, 18.2% with edged weapons, and 8.2% with firearms.

[krispos42]

117. But they don't have the lowest homicide rate

I bet they have a really low rate of death due to frostbite. And snowmobile accidents.

[Cha]

54. Shaka..Hang Loose, baby~

http://www.to-hawaii.com/shaka.php

[Turbineguy]

2. Somebody always has to be last in any race.

[fascisthunter]

3. I Have Plenty of Studies in the Past That Back this Up

it really is a no-brainer. The NRA can stick their propaganda up their own asses all they want.

[feslen]

19. re: yeah but

it may be a no-brainer, but those gun nuts have no brains. So....how do we tell those fools that guns=unnecessary violence, death and destruction?

[fascisthunter]

40. I forgot to add a "seen" after 'have' and before 'plenty'

[Raskolnik]

49. I'm not sure what you think this study means.

Or how it changes anything in the 2nd Amendment.

[Lorien]

70. Agreed.

:thumbsup:

[imdjh]

4. I would imagine that Hawaii skews in a number of ways.

Being an island and all that. I also think that it's suspicious that a state with such a large military population would have such a low gun ownership rate. Perhaps they aren't counting everyone.

I'll also note that while declaring causation on the relationship between the claimed household gun ownership rate to the "gun death" (weasel word) rate- it immediately goes on to point out that Louisiana has a higher "gun death" rate than Alabama despite Louisiana having a lower gun ownership rate.

All in all, I'd place this along side the American Family Associate reports for integrity.

[Not Me]

7. While I would agree that the group publishing the info has an agenda

the data pretty much speaks for itself... Unless you can refute it.

[paulsby]

88. the data does not mean that correlation = causation

fwiw, i used to be a cop in hawaii

the culture is very different

new hampshire has a relatively high gun ownership and a low gun death rate.

we can cherry pick all ya want.

[struggle4progress]

90. NH is 39th from the top in ownership and 44th from the top in deaths

using the ownership data here: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/spreadsheet/1003599

NH is just about where you'd expect it to be

[Kali]

92. book 'em, paulsby-o! ???

;-)

[baldguy]

8. "Gun death" is a "weasel word"? How?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

"Weasel words is an informal term for words that are ambiguous and not supported by facts. They are typically used to create an illusion of clear, direct communication."

"Gun death" seems pretty unambiguous, clear & direct to me.

[imdjh]

14. Because murder, accidents, and suicide are all "gun death"...

Lumping them in together to create the illusion that it's a meaningful statistic, is "weasel words".

[baldguy]

29. That's like saying the risk from tobacco smoke isn't *that* bad

because cancer, accidental fire, asphyxiation & inhaling second-hand smoke are all different kinds of death, and furthermore mouth cancer is different from lung cancer. Lumping them all in together to creates the illusion that it's a meaningful statistic.

Bullshit.

When we're trying to gauge the true risk gun ownership poses, that statistic is precisely what should be examined. They are related because of the source of the death, not in spite of it.

Unless you need to maintain your preconceived misconceptions, contrary to all the evidence.

[imdjh]

34. "Gun deaths" combines murder, self defense, and suicide. It's a meaningless statistic ...

... created for the purpose of telling a lie.

[baldguy]

43. How is it meaningless if they're looking at deaths caused by guns?

[Statistical]

45. Because you are ignoring violent crime & deaths by non-guns.

If someone rapes you with a knife instead of a gun will it make you feel better?
If someone gets murdered w/ a bat they are just as dead.
If someone kills themselves w/o a gun is it somehow better?

Apples to Apples.
Violent Crime Rate to Violent Crime Rate.
Homicide Rate to Homicide Rate.

If guns cause more homicides then guess what?
The homicide rate should be higher!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If guns cause more crime then guess what?
The violent crime rate should be higher!!!!!!!!

If guns cause more suicides then guess what?
The suicide rate should be higher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need to make up a new "gun death" stat and remove all other non-gun forms of violence, crime, suicides, and deaths to stack the deck.

Please find me one violent crime victim who said "I am sure glad that rapist didn't have a gun".
Find me on greiving family who's child committed suicide who said "well at least he didn't off himself with an evil gun".\

So if the premise is that guns cause more violent, homicides, suicides then WHY do they make up a "gun death" stat?
Why not just use the violent crime rate, homicide rate, suicide rate?
It would be clear and transparent.

The answer is obvious. The stats don't support the crusade so they need a new stat.

[baldguy]

51. You can't look at the crime rate because not all the deaths being counted are crimes.

Duh!

The premise - from the article - is "More guns means more gun death and injury." They make no statements or assumptions about crime at all. You did read the article, right?

A death due to an accident is an accident. A death due to self-defense is self-defense. These actions are not crimes, but if a gun is used they are still gun deaths.

[X_Digger]

53. And you wouldn't recognize

a tautology if it smacked you in the mouth.

Less red cars = less red car death!

Less baseball bats = less baseball bat death!

The conclusion you're trying to draw from this "study" is that if somehow there were fewer guns, there'd be less deaths. No conclusion can be drawn from a tautology- especially not in this case, because you forget to look at substitution. How's knife crime in HI? Ever wonder why HI doesn't even allow pocket knives? Could it be because in the absence of guns, criminals switched to knives to rob, kill, rape, and maim?

Full of fail.

[baldguy]

56. If the rate of gun ownership wasn't a factor in the rate of gun-related deaths

then the rate of gun-related deaths would be the same regardless of the rate of gun ownership.

And you don't know what a tautology is.

[X_Digger]

59. Gun ownership by legal owners

doesn't equate to gun ownership by criminals (which would be a more relevant figure to compare to gun crime.)

If you could suddenly make all guns disappear (legal and illegal) then your statement would make sense.

DC has a low rate of gun ownership but high crime rate with guns. If there were a direct correlation, then DC would have a low crime rate.

A tautology is a statement that is true under any possible valuation- less guns (overall) = less gun crime. That is a tautology.

[superconnected]

67. You're arguing with a gun nut. The evident, not even caring about

people getting killed by guns is one reason the guy should have his guns taken away. His mentality is dangerous. Unfortunately it's also common among gun owners. But, not all have that mentality. Some actually are responsible - and I mean socially responsible as well as not having the "from my cold dead hands", mentality. Hard to believe but those people are actually the average gun owners. They aren't emotionally attached to having them no matter what. I've met a few.

[X_Digger]

69. And you're agreeing with a 9/11 'troofer'

I support all amendments to the constitution, do you?

Many of us in the 'gungeon' have endorsed opening up NICS to the public so that folks can be sure they're not selling guns to a prohibited person. We're opposed to criminals and the mentally unstable getting their hands on guns, but we've seen time and again that restrictions on gun ownership that only affect the law abiding have little or no affect on criminal use of guns.

-94 AWB? Didn't affect crimes using these weapons (according to CDC, FBI, & DOJ)
-waiting periods? Didn't do squat
-closing the 'non existent gun show loophole'? didn't work for CA, didn't work for NY, didn't work for PA (handguns only)

[KamaAina]

96. We only banned one specific type of pocket knife

It's called a "butterfly knife", or "balisong", and it's (or was) popular with Filipinos.

http://archives.starbulletin.com/1999/03/18/news/story3.html


FAIL.

[X_Digger]

98. No? See the bill below..

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2009/bills/SB126_.htm

SECTION 1. Chapter 134, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is amended by adding a new section to part III to be appropriately designated and to read as follows:

"§134‑ Pocket knives; sale prohibited; penalty. Any person who knowingly manufactures, sells, transfers, possesses, or transports a pocket knife in the State shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

As used in this section:

"Pocket knife" means a knife with a blade that folds into the handle and which is suitable for carrying in the pocket."

SECTION 2. Upon the effective date of this Act, no person shall import or manufacture pocket knives into the State for the purpose of selling or distributing pocket knives.

SECTION 3. New statutory material is underscored.

SECTION 4. This Act shall take effect on January 1, 2010.

[KamaAina]

103. The bill was never heard in committee

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2009/lists/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=126

that would have been one of the dumbest things they'd ever done -- and that's saying a lot, even though the breakdown is 44-7 Dem in the House and 23-2 in the Senate.

I now have another reason to despise the senator who introduced it, besides the fact that he grilled me for twenty minutes about my agency's financial status (which I know nothing about) at a hearing last year. How does he think people are supposed to go camping without a pocket knife?! :dunce:

[X_Digger]

107. yah, crazy that it was even introduced..

He says it was done for a constituent, and he didn't get behind it.

[Statistical]

58. However you are not looking at ALL DEATHS

Once again why not overall suicide rate, overall accidental death rate?

Deaths due to self-defense? Seriously? It would be better if the person was a victim?

If I banned red cars today. I will "predict" the red car death rate will go down.
Does that mean the overall vehicle accident death rate has gone down?
Does that mean less vehicles will be used in crime?
Does that mean society is safer?

No doubt if I ban red cars then the red car death rate will be lower. It is meaningless unless compared to the entire category.

[Critters2]

97. The study was only studying gun deaths. Studies have to set

parameters. They teach you this the first day of statistics 101.

[AtheistCrusader]

115. Guns don't 'cause' suicide.

Actions are caused by PEOPLE, with INTENTIONS, some harmful to others, some harmful to themselves.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. Gun death rate is in no way a 'weasel word'.

It is a counting of total deaths and a counting of total gun deaths - from all causes - and dividing the total by the number of gun deaths. Just two figures, and one simple 4th grade math problem - how do you weasel that?

As for Louisiana having a higher rate, despite lower gun ownership, than Alabama - Is New Orleans in Alabama? How big is the biggest city in Alabama? When you have population density, you have higher death rates, which is why most populations calling for improved gun control are urban populations - face it, you don't get drive by shootings in Lizard Lick.

As for the military population there, things may have changed since I was in, but when I was in all guns on base had to be kept under lock and key by the unit - not held by the owner. No privately owned weapons in barracks or BOQs, nor, I believe, any on-base housing. Those that I accounted for varied over the year or so I had that duty, but generally was app. 3 rifles and 8-10 pistols, the pistols ranging from high quality .44 Ruger revolvers to a .25 Piece-o-shit semi-automatic hide-out piece.

[imdjh]

22. Good point: no major cities in Hawaii

I think it's safe to say that New Orleans in an anomaly and due to its status as a "jumping off point" for a major waterway, it's been something of a criminal magnet for centuries.

The city closest to Honolulu is Raleigh North Carolina, which I think we can assume has a much higher gun ownership and carry rate than Honolulu, yet Raliegh has lower overall crime and violent crime rates than Honolulu.

[rfranklin]

21. Miltary is 2 percent of the population...

Try making up some other weasel reasons.

[imdjh]

30. No, 2% of the military is in Hawaii, making up 9.68% of HI pop (2006) not counting family members.

[LostinVA]

27. People in military housing often can't have weapons

My BIL was an officer in the Army for over 12 years, and they weren't allowed to have weapons in base housing.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Not even close to true

I had weapons in every house I had on base. Had to register them with the base was about it.

[JonLP24]

62. I guess it depends on where

In Ft Lewis on base residents had their weapons in the arms room.

[LostinVA]

75. That's what my BIL had to do

Two places stateside, and one in Germany.

[LostinVA]

73. No, very true -- my BIL wasn't allowed weapons in some of his housing

[zipplewrath]

63. There's definitely a dirth of info

As is usual in these kinds of pieces, the vast majority of the data isn't there. And it rests upon the logical fallacy of correlation is causation. The very first question one would want to sort out is whether these are leading or lagging indicator. i.e. is there a higher level of "gun deaths" because of the presents of guns, or is there a higher presence of guns because of the factors creating gun deaths. Which is causing the other, if there is any correlation at all.

You have to admit though, that if you look beyond Hawaii, at the first five states, it's a rather broad and diverse set of states for whom the only real correlation is the status of their weapons laws (I'd bet they would find stricter laws for weapons beyond just guns). Admittedly, if it wasn't for Hawaii, the first 5 would all be northeastern states, practically New England. But then one jumps to Minnesota.

Alternately, the strange thing in the top 7 is Wyoming. In a way, that's the thing that tends to lend support to their larger assertion. There are no real high population densities, yet they are something like 2.5 times Minnesota, which has
some greater population densities, and is fairly close by. I suspect there is some hint though here that there is a problem with the data reduction. States with low population densities in general and lacking in any high population densities, seem to rank high on the list. Lousiana being almost the lone exception. Alternately, states with high population densities especially the presence of large cities seem to rank low on the list.

As such, taking a longer look, one begins to suspect the correlating factor may have something to do with gun "use". That term would of course have to be fleshed out, but gun deaths, requires not just the presence, but the use of guns. Large population densities may own guns, but they may have a very low "use" rate. Low densities may have a very high use rate. And in here may be the real "correlation". States that have high use rates may be the most likely to have "weak" gun laws. States with low use rates will be able to pass strong gun laws. Which tends to get back the issue of leading and lagging indicators. The presence of strong laws may be an indication of less use. They don't create the lower "gun death" rates, they are a response in essence to the low gun use rates. It is the use rate which will be a leading indicator of a gun death rate. As the use rate declines, the death rate will, and the stronger laws may follow.

The distribution I'd like to see though is death by type of weapon. Pistol, rifle, caliber, powder load, etc. That, along with a cross correlation to population densities and "use" rates might be the most interesting data of all.

[benEzra]

93. Murder, by State and Type of Weapon:

Murder, by State and Type of Weapon:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_20.html

Robbery, by State and Type of Weapon:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_21.html

Aggravated Assault, by State and Type of Weapon
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_22.html

[Hekate]

89. "Gun death" is a weasel word? It pretty much says that if you die from a bullet...

... that's death by gun. Gun death.

:shrug:

Hekate

[ensho]

6. wonder how the gun nuts will twist these actual facts

are they gun enough to accept the facts?

gun nuts are kinda obsessive like the religiously insane. sometimes they are one and the same.


(yes, I know, get out the popcorn)

[Badgerman]

10. hmmm, not a gun nut, but....

Try this on for size: statistically violence is directly correlated to stress levels. Hawaii has one of the lowest stress levels on the planet. Just as with guns, if there is no trigger there is no 'BOOM'. Always be careful when quoting statistics to back up an assumption or generalized conclusion.

[Winterblues]

11. If you read the article you would have seen New York is in the top five

for fewest gun deaths and has some of the strictest gun laws..

[Badgerman]

15. you missed my point....

While New York rankls as you said low, it also ranks fairly low in the stress factor...remember New York is more than Manhattan. ALSO and this is the the crux of the matter I SPECIFICALLY did not mention the implements off deaths i.e. guns, knives, anniversary presents etc. I spoke to VIOLENCE.

Another example of take your time, and think about things before you respond, it is a fact that on a fast read of anything a persons mind jumps ahead and draws conclusions in order to fill in the 'blanks' caused by skimming...and we all know our minds conclusions are never against its own preconceptions, right? ;)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

109. Where are Washington DC and Chicago on that list?

[ensho]

23. Hawaii has one of the lowest stress levels - really? do you have the

stats on that?

[imdjh]

24. Probably no stats on that- but it does have the highest Asian/Asian-mix PPC

[mainer]

81. I think it's pretty high stress because of the economics there

Every family has to have multiple breadwinners just to afford the real estate and high food prices. And the traffic drives everyone nuts.

[Stellabella]

38. And when there's a trigger of stress, a gun is the easiest way to

kill a lot of people without getting yourself intimately involved.

That's why drug cartels use guns, not knives. You don't have to be near the victims to cause a lot of carnage with little effort.

[semillama]

9. It's probably pretty hard to aim on a surfboard. n/t

[onehandle]

12. It's because Hawaii is a vacation paradise with drinks with little umbrellas and hula girls...

...is the dumb ass reason that gun fetishists will find to dismiss this finding.

[Buns_of_Fire]

108. ...and Steve McGarrett, the Five-O team, and Magnum, P.I.!

Well, maybe not Magnum so much. But definitely Don Ho.:)

[Statistical]

13. Why not look @ all the data?

http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/8137689

Comparison of state homicide rate (all homicides not just guns) to national average
AND
Comparison of state gun ownership rate to national average.

Unless you have citizens that don't mind dying but are against being killed ONLY by guns the total homicide rate is more useful.

Notice they didn't point out the fact that:
District of Columbia
Maryland
Illinois
California

all have ownership rates SUBSTANTIALLY lower than national yet homicide rates SUBSTANTIALLY higher.

They also didn't point out that:
Wyoming
Alaska
South Dakota
North Dakota
Iowa

all have ownership rates SUBSTANTIALLY higher than national yet homicide rates SUBSTANTIALLY lower.

Funny that the DC Based group didn't point out that DC has the #1 LOWEST rate of ownership, 89% less than national average, yet has the highest homicide rate in the US.

DC homicide rate is more comparable to third world countries than the rest of the United States, at a staggering 30 per 100K residents in 2007. Columbia was 33 per 100K, Angola 40 per 100K, South Africa 35 per 100K.

[Winterblues]

16. So I take it you are suggesting if DC had more guns there would be fewer homicides?

I would suggest maybe Iraq and Somalia and Darfur and Sudan might be an indication of your theory that more guns means less homicides...:shrug:

[feslen]

18. re: no no no!

it's part of the Constitutional Rights, dontcha know?!

"Right to Bare Arms".

we should be able to have the right to defend ourselves against ourselves !!

sarcasm.

[imdjh]

25. "Right to Bare Arms"

[Statistical]

36. Nice strawman. I think the point is less guns obviously hasn't reduced it

I simply showed that there does not appear to be a strong correlation between ownership rate & homicide rate.

Hawaii low ownership + low homicide
DC low ownership + high homicide (same w/ CA, IL, and MD)

Some states have high ownership + low homicide
Some states have high ownership + high homicide
Some states have low ownership + low homicide
Some states have low ownership + high homicide

Doesn't appear to be much of a correlation (despite the fear mongering by anti-rights groups).

Could it be that homicides (and other forms of violent crime) are more linked to.....
* poor mental health system
* the misguided "war on drugs"
* poverty
* poor police funding
* inadequate education system
* lack of economic opportunity (despair, hopelessness, leading to "crime/drugs is the only option" thinking)
* high urban areas (high concentrations of people that exacerbate the existing issues and overwhelm existing resources)

COULD IT BE THAT THESE SOCIETAL FACTORS ARE THE ROOT CAUSE OF HIGHER (or lower) HOMICIDE & VIOLENT CRIME?

Nope. It is always the guns. Your right it is that guns in DC misbehave while guns in others states are well mannered.
Yup

Like it or hate it the 2nd amendment guarantees and existing and inalienable right to bear arms in defense on the country and self.

That isn't going away. Why no be productive at look at REAL SOLUTIONS to reduce crime/homicides?

Did you know Virginia cut homicide rate in Richmond (one of the top 10 dangerous cities) by 40% without reducing rights of legal gun owners? How is that possible?

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/RHOM07_20081206-211651/144281

"BAN/REDUCE/REGULATE GUNS NOW" is the left wing version of "Drill Baby Drill" it is an utterly bankrupt idea dragged out when people lack real solutions.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

110. Way to deal with the facts ignore them.

Especially when they go against your opinion.

[w4rma]

20. What's the relative murder rate, though? (nt)

[Statistical]

48. Hawaii homicide rate is very low but trend doesn't hold true in other gun restrictive places

high brady (restrictive gun laws) ratings
---------------------------------
DC 1,414 30.8 3.8%
HI 273 1.7 8.7%
NY 414 4.2 18.0%
IL 533 5.9 20.2%
CA 523 6.2 21.3%
MD 642 9.8 21.3%

low brady (lax gun laws) ratings
--------------------------------
AR 529 6.7 55.3%
WV 275 3.5 55.4%
SD 169 2.1 56.6%
MT 288 1.5 57.7%
AK 661 6.4 57.8%
WY 239 3.1 59.7%


first number is violent crime rate (# violent crimes per 100K people)
second number is felony homicide rate (# of non-justified homicides per 100K people)
last number is gun ownership rate (# of legal adult persons who own firearm)

The national average:
violent crime rate: 467 (per 2007 FBI Unified Crime Report)
homicide rate: 5.6 (per 2007 FBI Unified Crime Report)
ownership rate: 31.7% (per 2001 Behavioral Risk Factor Survellance System)

[Kali]

26. It's freaking Hawaii!

Not exactly a typical state for statistical purposes is it?

[onehandle]

31. Yes. It's well known that statistics don't apply to Hawaii.

:eyes:

[imdjh]

39. Honolulu has 30 times the population of Palm Beach, and 300 times the # of sex offenders.

My contribution to meaningless stats day.

[Kali]

57. Oh ok Hawaii is exactly the same as the other 48 mainland states.

Right. If I was doing a study of behavior patterns in the US I would definitely focus on Hawaii and Alaska as representative of the whole.


NOT. If I found what they apparently "found" in this OP, I think I would be checking out a FEW of the other variables besides just gun laws.

[melm00se]

28. so the strong gun laws and low rate of ownership is it?

might it have more to do with the fact that these are islands, with the main way of getting there is via airplane?

it's awfully difficult to take a firearm on an airplane in your carry on luggage.

and with checked luggage x-rayed makes that a challenge as well.

someone didn't really think this one through too much.

[baldguy]

33. It just means the gun laws in AZ & TX effect the rate of gun death in CA & IL.

And the NRA, the GOP and their gun worshiping toadies say "Too bad. I don't care if people die as long as I got my boom stick."

[melm00se]

42. but then why don't the weak

gun laws effect the rate of gun death rates in IL and CA?

because Hawaii is an island with limited ways of entry

Apply some skull to the problem...geez.

[baldguy]

44. Forget about the 2300 mi of ocean, right?

You can't just get in your car & drive to Hawaii.

[Statistical]

46. But you can fly there with check bags filled w/ guns.

No federal law prohibits carrying guns in checked bags.
No airline reports that information to police.
As long as they are unloaded, securely stored, and declared you can fly guns to any state you want.

Of course the non-existent retail gun traffickers probably weren't smart enough to google it:
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

Oh no maybe they read DU and massive gun trafficking by airlines will now happen.

[melm00se]

65. Smuggling,

like many businesses, really relies on volume and while the airline won't blow you in for declaring a handgun or 2 in your checked luggage, I can pretty much guarantee that they will look at anyone askance if they come to check in and say "I have 3 dozen guns in my checked luggage" and they may definitely do something if you do the same thing on a regular basis.

[Statistical]

68. Well HI must have no drug problem then? Neither does Australia? n/t

[melm00se]

61. that was exactly my point

[Raskolnik]

50. What gun laws of Hawaii's do you think the nation should emulate? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. The laws are not all that different from many states but there is an extensive permit process

that makes it a real PITA. Mandatory registration, permit required prior to purchase. Been through it a few times.


http://www.honolulupd.org/info/gunlaw.htm

http://www.hawaiirifleassociation.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42&Itemid=47

[rl6214]

119. It is legal to take a gun in your checked luggage

Moron!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. Actually there is no problem taking weapons in checked baggage and the airlines do not report it to

the state.

[melm00se]

41. that is true

as long as you declare them and have them locked away in the proper carrying case...but if you don't...well that's a different matter, plenty of folks get busted for that.

[bertman]

32. Why would suicides figure into these statistics? If you want to kill yourself what's wrong

with using a gun? Personally, I'm in favor of people being able to kill themselves in the way they choose--sort of a Pro-Death civil liberties thing.

[mainegreen]

52. Correlation does not imply causation. Hawaii also has the most Japanese people.

There are much stronger factors in gun death rate than gun laws.

I suspect that the biggest factors driving death rate are economics, education, and social support.

[depakid]

72. Actually, like OP stated- it's a simple equation

Less guns- harder to get. Less gun deaths and related tragedies.

[quiller4]

60. Hawaii does not have a low rate of gun ownership

It has a low rate of handgun ownership. The information the Violence Policy Center misquotes only dealt with handguns and didn't consider rifles or shotguns at all. Hawaii does have a low rate of gun deaths but a relatively high homicide rate.

[Statistical]

64. Wrong & Wrong.

HI has an extremely low firearm ownership rate. ~8% vs ~30% nationally.
HI has a very low homicide rate 1.7% vs 5.5% nationally.

Neither of those facts are in dispute.

The homicide rate is per FBI and the ownership rate is per a 2001 study conducted by govt organization.

However there is no correlation.

IL, CA, MD have low ownership rates and high homicide rates.
IL 5.9 20.2%
CA 6.2 21.3%
MD 9.8 21.3%

WV, SD, MT, WY have ownership rates nearly DOUBLE the national average yet have homicide rate substantially lower.
WV 3.5 55.4%
SD 2.1 56.6%
MT 1.5 57.7%
WY 3.1 59.7%

[mainer]

86. Thanks for correcting that!

I always felt pretty safe in Honolulu. It is indeed a safe state, esp. considering the concentration of population.

I now live in a state where I also feel safe -- but you have to drive a ways to even SEE anyone.

[imdjh]

87. I rather envy that

Driving through western Texas, I thought, "I could live here." I would see a house in the distance with the lights on, and no one around. There was a certain attraction to it.

[snooper2]

66. It's not like there is anywhere to run

:rofl:

[Haole Girl]

106. You beat me to it!

A woman on Lanai said, "We have 3% crime, 3% unemployment...Same 3%."

:rofl:


edit: It's a little higher now (just looked it up, out of curiosity). But same concept. :-)

[slackmaster]

71. Hawaii only has one city with more than 50,000 people

Honolulu, 371,000 as of the 2000 census.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108204.html

[mainer]

74. Oahu has one of the most concentrated populations in the U.S.

The island of Oahu (where Honolulu is located) has about 870,000 people, packed onto one island. So I don't know how you can say that it's such a teeny community.

Hawaii as a state is the 13th densest in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density

I think how closely people are crammed together is a better indicator of interpersonal stresses that might trigger violence.

[slackmaster]

76. I've been there twice - Except for Honolulu, Oahu is definitely not an urban environment

Big cities are typically where a large majority of violent crimes occur in any state or country.

[mainer]

80. I lived in Honolulu for 12 years. Try driving at rush hour.

It can take an hour to move 10 miles. With all the high-rises and dense housing, it's a pretty packed-in city. By no means would I call it a small town.

I'm sure there are plenty of towns with fewer people and yet a higher crime rate than Honolulu.

[imdjh]

84. And so dies another fantasy

For some reason, I never thought of Hawaii and traffic in the same think.

[imdjh]

83. That's about 3 acres per person

[mainer]

85. Ah, but much of Oahu is uninhabitable

The Koolau mountains, for instance, are unbuildable. Those lovely, velvety ridges that loom above Oahu are practically vertical and waterlogged year-round, so even though that's included in the square mileage of Oahu, no one can live there. Plus, there's a great deal of territory that's owned by the federal government and reserved for military bases -- again, not available for habitation. So much of the "three acres per person" is in fact not accessible.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

77. More like 900K in 2004 on Oahu (City and County of Honolulu)

From: http://www.alternative-hawaii.com/oahu1.htm which is based on http://hawaii.gov/dbedt/info/economic/databook/db2004/

Oahu had a resident population of 899,593 in 2004 (71% of the State's total population on 9.2% of its land).
In 2004, there were 102,680 military personnel (Armed Forces plus military dependants) in Hawaii. Most of them were based on Oahu.

[anonymous171]

79. Yes. Less guns equals less crimes with guns. I bet clamping down on free speech

would have a similar effect on hate speech.

[xchrom]

82. recommend

[benEzra]

91. Instead of a press release from the gun-ban lobby, how about check out the FBI crime data:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_05.html

Yes, Hawaii has a low murder rate, but its murder rate is NOT the lowest in the nation; Hawaii's murder rate is 50% higher than New Hampshire's, and Hawaii's overall violent crime rate is twice as high.

Treat gun-ban-lobby press releases with the same skepticism you'd apply to a gun-lobby press release.

[mainer]

99. It's ALMOST the lowest in the nation -- yet with high population density

You're comparing Hawaii's murder rate with places like NH and Maine? Hawaii has far more dense crowding, yet is almost at the bottom of the country in murder rates.

NH: 1.1 murders/100,000
Maine: 1.6
Hawaii: 1.7
Vermont 1.9

as opposed to the low-density state of Wyoming, where the murder rate's almost 300 percent that of NH!

[benEzra]

100. So you would agree that sociological and demographic factors

like income, employment, education, poverty, amount of inner-city blight, degree of social alienation, access to health care and mental health care, living standards, and the drug trade (made profitable by prohibition) have far more to do with murder rates than the rate of lawful gun ownership does?

If so, I'd agree.

[mainer]

102. I think they're all factors. But so is gun availability.

All the blights in the world can lead to motives and stress. But if you don't have a gun in your hand, you'll have a much harder time actually killing someone.

[benEzra]

104. At a distance, yes. Close in, not so much.

But just as with drugs, criminal availability on the black market and rate of ownership by the lawful and nonviolent are not all that closely correlated. If you take a very fine-grained look at where most of the violence occurs, you'll find that most of it occurs in places with extremely low rates of lawful gun ownership, even when considering states with high ownership rates elsewhere. I'm not claiming causality by any means, merely pointing out that the exceedingly low rate of gun ownership by the law-abiding in Chicago or D.C. doesn't prevent the criminals actually committing the violence from doing so.

The right of the lawful and responsible to own guns in the United States is settled, as are the parameters of what guns we can and cannot lawfully own. Gun ownership is not going away, and fighting to marginalize or criminalize responsible ownership will prevent addressing the more relevant sociological factors, just as it did in 1994, IMO.

[Doctor_J]

94. Fewer guns means fewer gun deaths? You're kidding!

The NRA says MORE guns = fewer gun deaths. Who should I believe???

[fireonthemountain]

113. Jamaica has low gun ownership too.

Yet doesn't exactly have a low total or gun homicide rate there.

[foxfeet]

95. Yes, but they lead the nation in death due to poi aspiration.

[imdjh]

101. UPDATE - Hawaii has lowest number of snowmobile accidents

[Fumesucker]

105. Lower than Florida? n/t

[jody]

111. OK for "between State homicide Victim rate" but "between Race homicide Offender rate" is 7 times

greater and all races have the same legal access to firearms.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

112. Very few drownings in the Sahara.

[raimius]

116. Makes sense...

If you outlaw Steak knives, there should be fewer "steak knife deaths." Unfortunately, there would likely be an increase in "meat cleaver deaths."
The substitution effect in action. (Unless you are in the UK, where crimes involving guns went UP after the handgun ban...go figure!)

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about overall violent crime and homicide. If criminals substitute one weapon for another, then commit the same crime, I really don't see that as an improvement.

Some examples:
(Even with the increase in gun crime) the UK experienced a dramatic rise in knife crime.
There have been multiple-victim homicides in Japan using swords.
Several cases of genocide in Africa have used machettes as the primary weapon.
After Israel permitted much more of their population to carry firearms and posted many more security details to stop terrorist shootings, the terrorists began using bombs more often.

(Suicide is important too, but it is a different topic with some different solutions.)

[aikoaiko]

120. I wonder if deaths by knifes and other means are just as high as the US average?

Context would be nice.

[yay]

121. Because gun deaths are worse than "other" deaths. N/T