Country's gun-loving tradition has gone too far......

[virginia mountainman]

Proponents of gun rights suggest that they have a Constitutional, Second Amendment right to "bear arms." However, they are strongly mistaken.

It is not a suggestion, it is fact, as recent court cases prove..... LOL!!

As a college student, I want to feel safe at school. Students have a distinct possibility of walking through campus one day and having someone open fire to kill dozens of their classmates

Someone is obviously, educated beyond their intelligence. He would rather FEEL SAFE, than BE safe.

Constituents also must be prepared for the long-term effects. When new statistics come out in five years and we find that our streets, schools and homes are safer, politicians and citizens will be satisfied with the decision.

You obviously, have never researched this issue, beyond Sara Brady's website.... How about practically ALL, the stats on CCW?? How do you explain DC's HIGH GUN CRIME rate, to say, Virginia's low one???

http://www.pennlive.com/editorials/index.ssf/2009/05/countrys_gunloving_tradition_h.html

[Towlie]

1. Court cases don't "prove" anything.

But this question stands out as the most absurd: "How do you explain DC's HIGH GUN CRIME rate, to say, Virginia's low one???"

The District of Columbia and the State of Virginia are two very different environments with very different people, population densities, and living conditions. To argue as if guns laws are the only factor affecting gun crime rates makes no sense at all. If the two regions had identical gun laws, DC would still have higher gun crime rates than Virginia, but the difference could easily be even greater.

[TankLV]

6. The fact that DC is SURROUNDED by areas where you can get a gun makes no difference, huh?!!

A more accurate example is ENGLAND where THE WHOLE PLACE has limited guns...and their murder rate is just a MINISCULE FRACTION of ours!

The only way limiting guns works is if ALL ADJACENT jurisdictions limit guns, too. If not, it won't work.

Just ask MEXICO with their OVERWHELMING use of ILLEGAL US GUNS!!!

[TheWraith]

11. A DC resident can't buy a gun in Virginia.

To legally buy a gun you must be a resident of the state in which you're buying it.

[TheWraith]

12. Oh, and most of those guns in Mexico are not from the US.

Only about 20% of them are actually traceable to here. The rest are mostly coming in from elsewhere, probably on the same routes that the drugs do.

[Towlie]

15. Was that question addressed to me? It seems you should have directed it to "virginia mountainman".

I agree with your post and I certainly don't claim that "The fact that DC is SURROUNDED by areas where you can get a gun makes no difference".

[Ready4Change]

19. Was illegal to buy in VA and bring to DC. Thus only criminals did so.

DC's laws enforced an environment where law abiding citizens had no guns, and criminals (who, by definition, don't follow laws) were armed. So a gun, in DC, turned other citizens into walking ATMs.

In live in the 'burbs North of DC, and I used to work at several locations around the National Mall. I don't claim gun laws are/were the cause of DC's violent crime rate. But I think they were a contributing factor.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. Epic fail. Why isn't the crime rate as bad in those surrounding areas if the guns are the cause?

[Merchant Marine]

30. England's murder rate

is primarily a result of demographic differences between England and the US. However after their total ban on semiautomatic handguns their gun crime rate skyrocketed.

It is also important to note a cultural difference of murder rate reporting. The FBI reports all homicides as murders, including justified self-defense and murders that are pleaded down in court. The British Home Office reports only homicides that are decided as murders in court.

Here the BBC reports on recent Home Office crime statistics. That Gun crime graph is a doozy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm

This news story details a week of gun crime in the "Gun Free" UK
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2007/09/03/exclusive-gun-crime-uk-115875-19725690/

Anyway, lets compare crime rates.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/

Murder Rates
US:0.042/1000
UK:0.014/1000

Burglary Rates (Interestingly enough, "Gun Control" Australia leads this category with 21.745/1000)
UK: 13.832/1000
US: 7.099/1000

Car Theft Rates (Again, Australia leads with 6.923/1000)
UK: 5.604/1000
US: 3.879/1000

Assault Rates (Virtually Identical)
US: 7.569/1000
UK: 7.459/1000

Rape Rates (Australia leads with 0.777/1000
US: 0.301/1000
UK: 0.142/1000

Robbery Rates:
UK: 1.574/1000
US: 1.385/1000

Total Crimes Per Capita
UK: 85.5517/1000
US: 80.0645/1000

In terms of overall crime the UK is worse than the US. They lead us in Burglary, Car Theft and Robbery and tie in Assault. We beat them at Murder and Rape, likely due to our inner city ghettoes. Gun Control has really resulted in a safer society over there, hasn't it?

[Euromutt]

36. The UK? That's a lousy example

See, the British rates of gun crime and homicide were lower than the US's even before Britain started introducing gun control. Gun control in the UK, FYI, was introduced immediately following the first world war, primarily to prevent assorted leftists from acquiring the firearms needed to launch a revolution (like they had in Russia and Germany). The same applies for pretty much all western European gun control legislation.

Moreover, violent crime in the UK has soared since the implementation of the last round of firearm restrictions following Dunblane; in fact, the rate of gun crimes doubled from 1997 to 2007. If you look at crimes like robbery, assault and rape, England and Wales have been well ahead of the US for over a decade. It's not that the increased gun control measures caused this increase in violence, but it didn't do anything to prevent it. And that's very simply because the availability of firearms doesn't cause crime, and where a criminal demand for weapons exists, a black market supply will rise to meet it.

By way of comparison, look at drugs; you can't cultivate coca or opium poppies anywhere geographically close to western Europe, and yet cocaine and heroin are readily available there. When there's a demand, it doesn't matter how far the supply has to travel. You can see the same pattern with guns trafficked from Virginia. Because of complaints from DC, NYC, Boston etc. Virginia introduced a "one handgun a month" law; as a result, the traffickers simply moved their straw purchase operations to the Carolinas and Georgia. If those states similarly adopted "one gun a month" laws, the traffickers would move to the next bunch of states, etc. And if every state in the lower 48 were to make it really hard to legally acquire handguns, the traffickers would start smuggling them in from overseas, e.g. eastern Europe and China (the Chinese don't give a shit whom they sell to).

That would make the guns more expensive, but the fact is that the nastier the purpose for which the prospective buyer wants the gun, the less likely he is to be dissuaded by an increase in price. Bluntly put, if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will be willing to pay black market prices for smuggled guns.

[patriotvoice]

44. And in moving the trafficking operation further from the buyer,

the street price rises, and the scope or frequency of crimes rises to match the new cost.

[Hoopla Phil]

37. I guess the fact that DC is SURROUNDED by areas with less crime makes no difference?

FAIL

[paulsby]

43. bogus

" more accurate example is ENGLAND where THE WHOLE PLACE has limited guns...and their murder rate is just a MINISCULE FRACTION of "

ours!"

and their murder rate was a fraction of ours when they had much LESS limited guns.

and their crime and murder rate has gone UP since they passed stricter gun laws.

not to mention, another "accurate example", which is switzerland.

where they have in some respects, LESS limited guns (much higher availability of full auto rifles), and a lower murder rate than ENGLAND.

and a lower part I and part II crime rates.

[tridim]

2. Just make sure you ignore all the kids shot by their siblings who find dad's gun.

I'm sure that makes you FEEL better.

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. Wow, it only took two replies to Lovejoy the thread!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. Those numbers are very low and have been declining for years.

It should also be noted those accidental shootings are often with illegally possessed firearms.

David

[virginia mountainman]

28. LOL, No need to worry about dad's gun..

Many kids have their own!!








My son and daugter, both have M1 Carbines!!! I need to get some pics up!

[FLAprogressive]

3. lol that editiorial uses every gun grabber trick in the book

1. The "Second Amendment doesn't really exist" tactic -- deny that the 2nd allows people to own weapons

2. The "feel good" proposal -- gun control makes one "feel" safe

3. The emotional response -- bring up some murder that involved a gun

and I just had to LOL at this

I could explain that we do not have .... an executive branch that threatens the liberties of its citizens

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Towlie]

4. Remember, gun advocates have their own "feel good proposal": Having a gun makes them "feel" safe.

[TankLV]

8. Hence, they are all SCARED COWARDS EVERY FUCKING MINUTE!!!

I've never felt scared or the NEED to own let alone carry a gun!!!

A coward dies a MILLION deaths, as opposed to the sane REST of us...

[virginia mountainman]

10. Jeeze, are ok today??

You seem a bit....on edge??

Did you forget your meds this morning??

[gizmo1979]

14. I agree fearful

is a terrible way to go through life.
These people are the same ones that will shoot someone while they are reaching for their cellphone.Then they will cry when they are sent to prison for 20 years that they had a right to defend themselves.

[virginia mountainman]

17. Cite please...

I carry a gun DAILY....have never shot anyone, nor have I EVER HEARD of anyone getting shot by a CCW holder, for 'pulling a cell phone".

If you can't your just talking out of your ass.

[friendly_iconoclast]

23. Forget it. It's like asking a creationist about paleontology...

..They prefer not to muddy their worldview with icky facts.

[Hoopla Phil]

38. The only example I can think of that remotely fits that description involves police.

I recall the story of a man sitting on a porch approached by police and being asked for ID. He reached for his wallet and was shot numerous times.

So by your logic I guess we should issue more CHLs and disarm the police?

[rl6214]

41. Right

Show me where a person with a CCL has shot someone, either on purpose or accidently.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. I've never thought of cops and soldiers that way, someone's paranoia has reached new levels.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. As a gun owner and a CPL holder, the only thing I'm scared of is...

Corrosion.

[virginia mountainman]

39. Thank god for Tenifer.....NT

[rl6214]

40. WOW, you have got some serious issues

Have you always been afraid of people with guns? Are you projecting your cowardice on the gun owners that are walking around you on a daily basis and you don't have a clue that they are armed? You really should see a shrink about that.

[virginia mountainman]

5. You know...

The more we win, the much more desparate and despondant they become!!

I'm ok with that, it just means more stuff, for the Schadenfreude Thread!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x223707

[Wickerman]

7. "How do you explain DC's HIGH GUN CRIME rate, to say, Virginia's low one???"

I never would, and would suggest that this kind of visceral, reflex argument does nothing to further the RKBA cause. Comparing pure metro areas with rural and metro mix areas results in purely specious distinctions, certainly not worth 3 following question marks.

Find a population center that matches DC in poverty rate, similar pop mass, unemployment, etc. but that has CCW and them make the comparison and you'll have an honest comparison.

[virginia mountainman]

9. OK..

How about Arlington, and Washinton....They are mear yards apart...

[Wickerman]

13. feel free to look up the demographics

if they have similar demographics then its most likely a valid comparison.

[virginia mountainman]

16. The facts of the matter are pretty simple really..

Its not so much a gun problem, as it is a CRIME one, I get that, you get that..

But as long as the papers, MSM, and others wish to paint it as a gun problem, my comments stand..

They are the ones ignoring the demographics of it all.

[Wickerman]

20. fair enough

if you want to trade their disingenuous for statistical noise, that's your call. I think you get further in making your argument by raising the level of discourse; a prime example of someone on this forum who has used this strategy to great success is BenEzra.

[virginia mountainman]

21. Thats true..

I guess I am burned out... Been fighting this fight for 15 years.... Ben does great work.

Constantly dealing with Hellen Keller types, over basics get old... WATER WATER WATTTTTTEEEERRRR

[Captain Hilts]

18. You can ride the DC subway to buy a firearm in MD. The gun law was symbolic only. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. You can ride the subway to MD to illegally buy a firearm from an illegal dealer.

[TheWraith]

31. Only if you live in Maryland.

To buy a gun legally, one must be a resident of the state in which you're buying it. A resident of DC buying a gun in Maryland could only do so illegally.

[Statistical]

34. Why would you travel.....

all the way to MD or VA to ILLEGALLY buy a firearms when you could ILLEGALLY buy one in DC?

You are aware that purchasing a firearm outside your state of residence is already a felony right?

[slackmaster]

29. Bobby Warshaw is just freaked out at the idea of having a black President

:nuke:

[rl6214]

42. Who the flock

is Bobby Warshaw?

[Euromutt]

45. The author of the editorial cited in the OP (n/t)

[X_Digger]

32. Man, full of fail

Pennsylvania has pre-emption of state laws, this one will go down the crapper like much of Philly's crap legislation.

"Before you argue that Americans have the right to own guns, think of yourself or your child at school and whether you want a disgruntled classmate walking in with a bat or an automatic gun."

3 things.. talk about "look over here at what this hand is doing!".. then a Lovejoy ("Won't someone think of the CHILDREN!").. then "Oh noes, MACHINE GUNZ!1!!! I'm SERIES!!"

Yah, if is the caliber of student at Stanford, I can see why we're slipping in education.

[virginia mountainman]

33. Lets see what the Pennsylvania Constitution says on this issue..

Section 21 . Right to Bear Arms
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/VC/visitor_info/creating/constitution.htm

The writer of the artical, is so full of fail....