Veto of guns-in-bars bill may not stick.

[Swede]

Great idea,carry a gun where alcohol is served.


Supporters of the bill say it will affect only the 218,000 handgun carry permit holders in the state, and could deter criminals carrying guns illegally from shooting someone in a restaurant.

Not so, said Metro Police Chief Ronal Serpas, who said he worries about additional bystander injuries in shootings if more guns were involved.

"When you actually investigate these cases, someone else wasn't going to make a difference," Serpas said. "These things happen in the blink of an eye."

Restaurant owners cheered Bredesen's veto. Boscos co-owner Andrew Feinstone put signs up this month banning handguns in his three Tennessee restaurants, including in Hillsboro Village, in anticipation of the bill becoming law.





http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090529/NEWS0201/905290369/0/NEWS03/Veto+of+guns-in-bars+bill+may+not+stick

[Arctic Dave]

1. Guns in drinking establishments. Sounds totally awesome,

I don't ever recall emotional people or fistfights in a bar.

[benEzra]

35. Most restaurants with wine lists are not bars. (n/t)

[backscatter712]

2. As pro-gun and pro-licensed-concealed-carry as I might be,

I do draw the line at packing into bars, especially when drinking.

I consider drinking while packing heat to be just as dangerous and stupid as driving drunk, and think it should be punished as such.

When I had a concealed-carry permit, there was a rule on the permit that forbade me from packing in a business that derived the majority of its revenue from the sale of alcoholic beverages (in other words, a bar.) I consider such restrictions to be perfectly reasonable.

[X_Digger]

11. Some states..

.. don't even allow carry in a liquor store (even though no consumption on premises), some allow only in businesses that derive <51% of their income from alcohol, some prevent carry anywhere that alcohol is served- but all the states that I know of prohibit carrying & being legally over the limit at the same time.

[Euromutt]

31. I agree concerning bars

I rather like the way Washington state handles it: no firearms allowed in any establishment, or part of an establishment, declared by the state Liquor Control Board to be off-limits to persons under the age of 21. That means bars, "lounges" attached to restaurants, and bar areas in restaurants: places where the main purpose of your being there is to drink.

But Washington state law does allow you to carry in the places/areas where the main purpose of your being there is to eat, even if alcohol is served in that place. Drinking while carrying isn't illegal as such, but if you're caught carrying while "under the influence" (i.e. legally unfit to operate a motor vehicle), you're screwed. Expect to have your carry piece confiscated and your CPL revoked.

I think it's a reasonable solution; it allows you to have a glass of wine or beer with dinner, which I don't think can hurt (provided it's with dinner). But every gun owner I know (myself included) locks the guns away when there's going to be more drinking going on than that.

[benEzra]

33. This isn't about bars, it's about restaurants with wine lists, AFAIK.

Here in NC, we have the same problem that TN has; if the restaurant has a wine list, it's a crime to enter the restaurant, even if you are licensed by the state to carry a weapon, are not drinking, and are not within 100 feet of anyone who is.

Florida takes a much more rational approach; carry in bars is prohibited, but carry in restaurants that serve alcohol is not, as long as you are not drinking. A "bar" is defined as an establishment or a portion of an establishment that derives more than 50% of its sales revenue from alcohol, if I recall. So my wife and I could visit the local Italian restaurant while carrying (in FL), but simply could not drink or visit the bar.

[X_Digger]

36. Texas is the same as FL..

If the establishment makes 51% of it's income from alcohol, it's off-limits.

[ConcernedCanuk]

3. I am amazed that this is even a discussion!

.
.
.

In Canada very few people can OWN a handgun, let alone carry one

Carrying one casually in a drinking place boggles my mind

The USA is still living in the "Wild West" syndrome methinks

time to grow up kids . . .

[tnlefty]

4. There was a short clip on the local news this morning in which

the Gov. stated something to the effect that 'we can honor second amendment rights with a dose of common sense.' He's not my favorite Governor, but this made much sense to me. If the veto is overridden, and owners can't state that they don't or won't allow firearms in their establishments, then my family will stay home more than we do now.

[Statistical]

7. Owners of any private property can prohibit firearms.

The 2nd ammendment doesn't force a private property owner from allowing firearms on their property any more than it forces you from letting me bring a firearm into your house (private property).

[pipoman]

29. You will stay home

even though you currently live in a state that allows for concealed carry with few or no issues at all? Surely you must consider that someone bent on shooting up a bar or restaurant will not be the least bit deterred by statutory restriction of firearms in such places nor signs posted by the owners of these businesses?

[Redneck Socialist]

5. It's allowed in my state

Oddly enough the bars don't run red with blood every night. Much of the concern over concealed carry, be it in a bar or in a National Park, is overblown.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. Weirdly enough, so does Massachusetts.

Granted, concealed permits are hard to get, but I've lived here for +/- 20 years and haven't heard
of anyone getting shot in a bar or restaurant by a permit holder.

Plenty of 'business disputes' and drunken idjits carrying illegally, however.

[Statistical]

6. Not that unusual.

Many states have no distinction on bars vs restaurants.

"The state currently prohibits anyone from drinking alcohol while carrying a gun in a restaurant. "
It is already against the law to drink alchohol while carrying a firearm.

This simply lets a responsible gun owner choose to carry (and choose to not drink) at a restaurant.
Also individual restaurants are private property the owner can simply have a no guns policy and post it.

In VA it is even crazier.
CCW in a restaurant w/ alcohol = felony
Open carry in a restaurant w/ alcohol = lawful

The legislature tried to pass a law allowing CCW but the gov vetoed it (although he did sign a law allowing DA to carry AND drink in restaurants concealed without a CCW!!!!!!!!!!!)

They were 5 votes short of overriding a veto.

So once a month or so I join a group of people who all open carry into a restaurant. When people ask why we pass out literature explaining we would love to keep the weapons out of sight but the governor doesn't want us to.

[katandmoon]

8. If you carried a gun into my restaurant, you would be told to leave ASAP.

[virginia mountainman]

10. If I carried a gun into your restarant...

Odds are you would not know it....

[Statistical]

12. Then I would leave. Pretty simple.

See no need for the legislature to get involved.

If a person doesn't leave private property (for any reason) when asked it is trespassing.

I would leave. Wouldn't even make a scene. There are plenty of restaurants (including virtually all the chains) that support my RKBA.

[X_Digger]

13. Yup, when they put up the no guns sign..

.. and folks told them why they weren't coming there anymore, suddenly the signs went away. Funny how the 'blood in the streets' failed to materialize.

[Howzit]

37. If that is because you believe "carriers" are dangerous, do you think confronting them a smart move?

Not that you need a reason to refuse service to anyone.

[depakid]

15. " So once a month or so I join a group of people who all open carry into a restaurant. "

That is just bizarre. So what is the motivation?

[Statistical]

17. The restaurant bill will come up again.

I personally would prefer to conceal carry.

If non-gun owners are complaining to the governors/legislature office and and are informed that gun owners could and likely would conceal carry if the law allowed us to it may be enough to push the vote over the limit.

Each year votes in favor of restaurant carry grow. It is now more than a majority and only 5 votes short of overturning a veto. One or two more years and it will pass or we get a pro-RKBA gov and we already have enough votes.

[depakid]

20. Why would you carry a gun to a restaurant at all?

What's the motivation?

[Statistical]

21. Why do you wear a seat belt, use smoke detector, buy insurance?

Do you only sometimes wear a seatbelt?
If you wear it and don't need it is it a waste?

[depakid]

22. So where you live makes you worry that someones going to "do sonething to you?"

That must kind of suck

[Statistical]

23. Not worry.

Where you live makes you live in constant fear that someone will crash into you on a road, your house will burn down, or you will have a catastrophic loss. That must suck.

Don't worry about me depakid. There are now about 5 million CCW so the odds are everyday you pass by someone who is armed you just never know it. If we didn't have this forum and you met me you would have no idea I was armed.

Just because you never realized it before doesn't mean it wasn't going on.
If it makes you feel better than just pretend the guns don't exist.

[depakid]

24. I just think it's bizarre, never having had the need to be bothered with it

which makes me (and others who I've spoken with about it, both here and abroad) think there's something more going on. Carrying a gun around all the time is a completely different deal than a seatbelt in the car. In some cases, it is indeed fear- in others, bravado. In others, who can say?

Bottom line is that if it didn't present a demonstrable public health hazard, I wouldn't care in the slightest about the issue (or probably about the psychology, either).

[Statistical]

25. CCW injure/kill less bystanders that law enforcement officers.

So kinda hard to back up the "public health hazard" meme. I agree we should disarm CCW right after we disarm criminals and LEO both of which injure and kill more citizens than CCW do.

As a class CCW holders tend to be very law abiding. I know that eats you up because as a talking point it would be so much better if they aren't but it is the truth.

You say it is a "completely different deal" that is your opinion. I see it exactly the same.
My firearm has already prevented me from being a crime stat on one occasion. No bravado. No shots fired.

[depakid]

26. Doesn't eat me up- as I said, I look at it from a public health and research angle

It's part of what I do for a living.

Which is how the issue of proliferation and having guns in the home first really drew my attention- and having lived abroad in Britain and OZ (where I plan to return soon) the ontrast is glaring. Probably not much can be done in the states, other than try to educate folks and reverse the proliferation trend.

But fear being a strong emotion, it usually trumps reason, which is why we see dead kids, spouses and girl friends among what would usually be considered "ordinary folks," as opposed to the criminally inclines. I suspect the thing I posted today that happened over in the refuge will be a sad story, and there won't be any significant criminal history.

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. Would you avoid travelling to Vermont or Alaska?

They explicitly do not have any permitting process for pistol carriage (AKA , "if you feel like it, carry it")

It's the demographics, poverty, and lack of crowding, I would suppose.

[depakid]

28. Why would I? Texas on the other hand...

Seriously, though. Been to Texas several times. Like Vermont quite a bit better.

Demographics (or rather-social structure) and crowding does play a role. Britain for example has dense urban areas and something of a stratified society, where it's difficult to "to get out" of certain "stations in life." So it doesn't strike me as unusual that they have problems with stabbings that you don't see in a less dense, more egalitarian country (with more pleasant weather) like Australia. Aussies have their fights- and glasses and bottles in bars are a bit of problem, but people tend not to carry around knives and cut people.

The crowding thing runs into a problem in places like the rural south, where per capita violence sometimes runs higher than in the cities. Then again, they have a similar problem to Britain with their social structure. Hoe Bagaent writes about that in Deer Hunting With Jesus.

[X_Digger]

32. Joe Bageant got some things right, missed compleltely elsewhere

I grew up in Virginia, and had close family in Winchester (Front Royal, to be precise.) He hits the mark about 75% of the time, but that other 25%? Swing and a miss. Parts of the book left me with a feeling that he was being condescending and smug (I could almost hear him chuckling and shaking his head.)

[Euromutt]

30. Because bad things have happened in restaurants

The most dramatic examples are the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre in San Ysidro, CA in 1984, and the Luby's massacre in Killeen, TX in 1991.

But armed robberies in restaurants are a rather more frequent occurrence, and those have left people dead (particularly managers) on quite a large number of occasions. That's not a problem limited to the US, by the way.

[benEzra]

34. A number of reasons, most of which you probably wouldn't agree with

since you're anti-carry in general, but:

If you can't carry in the restaurant, you are disarmed walking to and from the restaurant, and you are disarmed for the duration of your entire evening unless you remove your gun from your person and stash it in your car, in view of others, where it can be stolen. Restaurants don't offer to check your firearm at the door.

Others have pointed out the Luby's Cafeteria shooting, the worst in the USA until Virginia Tech. Only the good guys obeyed the no-guns rule in that case, and the loser shot everyone he wanted, slowly and deliberately, until someone finally showed up with a gun and the loser shot himself.

IMHO, the no-carry rule at restaurants with wine lists is grandstanding. Here in NC, it would be a crime for my wife to walk into a five-star restaurant with a .32 on her person, but it would be legal for her to visit Chuck E. Cheese's while armed. Personally, I think it should be up to the individual restaurant owner. If an owner wants to post a no-weapons sign on the door, they may do so, just like any other establishment. But I believe the owner should have the right to choose.

[virginia mountainman]

9. Odd, does not seem to be a problem in most of the nation..

http://www.opencarry.org/restaurant.html

[Tim01]

16. In Virginia you can carry a gun where alcohol is served as long as you let all the drunks see it.

As was already mentioned-

But worth saying again. I carry all day just about every day, same as a lot of people I know. Always concealed. So nobody ever knows.

But if I go to a restaurant that serves restaurant I have to open carry where everybody drinking can see my gun. It is really stupid.

I try to keep track of these things but every once in a while I will go to meet somebody for supper and I will discover the place serves alcohol. I think lunch at Ruby Tuesdays was the last one.

I do drink occasionally. Never EVER if I have a gun. I am very typical of concealed carry guys.

[Statistical]

18. Yup. There is even a term for conceal to open carry....

VA tuck.

Since conceal carry is prohibited but open carry is not, you just tuck the shirt behind the holster and now its legal. Shirt in front = illegal, shirt in back = legal.

Sad the gov wouldn't sign restaurant carry into law.

[Tim01]

19. Sad, stupid and dangerous. NT