Wow, a gun actually shoots someone by itself...

[spin]

TAMPA — Michael Thourot had just pulled his hand away from the warm metal when it started spewing bullets.

Moments before, Sherri Thourot had watched her husband fire and reload the Jennings 9mm. Then he set it down for her to shoot next at the range.

That's when the handgun started firing on its own, she said, spinning around in circles, landing the Thourots and an Irish tourist in the hospital.

****snip****

A bullet tore through the back of her right arm and exited from her biceps. Her husband had been shot in the left hand. Another man, a 29-year-old tourist visiting a friend, was hit in the shoulder and throat as he stood behind a shooting stall next to the Thourots.

All three were taken to the Lakeland hospital, where Michael Thourot and the tourist, Gary Flynn, underwent surgery.

***snip***

The Polk County Sheriff's Office said the gun may have been altered, leading to the malfunction. Detectives expect to know more when they take the gun apart and inspect it as they continue to investigate.

Sherri Thourot said her son, 29-year-old Jeremy, brought the 9mm back to the United States after one of his tours in Iraq with the Navy. He gave it to them this summer.

The couple cleaned the gun and made sure it was in good condition before taking it to the range, she said. They never expected to leave in an ambulance.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/9mm-malfunctions-at-lakeland-gun-range-shoots-three-people/1041591

An example of a Jennings firearm



I really don't know what to say, but...

I tend to buy handguns made by Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Colt, and I would consider buying a Glock or a Sig Sauer. I tend to avoid firearms made by manufacturers such as Jennings. I do like to purchase new firearms and I like new cars. I know what has been done to them.

Amateur gunsmiths scare me.

I thought it was only fair to post this. Usually I only post pro-gun articles, but this was too interesting to pass up.

[Dirtyhairy]

1. ut oh

[Oregone]

2. This happens all the time actually. Especially in drive-bys...

Thats why everyone in jail is innocent

[subcomhd]

that combined with the old "accelerator went to the floor on its own" = driveby

[spin]

7. I've had that happen...

I tried to lift the pedal with my foot to no avail, so I just turned the engine off.

The incident happened on one of the first cars I owned fifty some years ago.

[subcomhd]

11. or put her in neutral. floor mats are the leading cause of that I think.

[spin]

15. In my case the pedal stuck...

a little lube fixed the problem right up. Always was a little nervous driving that car after.

[subcomhd]

3. sounds like someone tried to do a litlle illegal semi auto to auto

conversion. Surely we have a gunsmith at DU.

[spin]

5. A fully auto 9mm Jennings is a scary thought. (n/t)

[TheWraith]

17. For the user as much as for anybody else. nt

[spin]

20. I've often heard of someone reducing the trigger pull of the Colt .45 auto...

to the point that the weapon would go full auto.

I personally and fortunately have never seen that happen, but I do remember a shooter at the range who mentioned his .45 auto would double fire. He immediately took it to a gunsmith for repair.

I suspect that either the shooter or someone who had owned the .45 before him had played amateur gunsmith and lightened the trigger pull to a dangerous level.

Light trigger pulls are great, but sometimes can be dangerous. I prefer a heavier pull that is not gritty and breaks cleanly.

[Hoopla Phil]

27. It is not really full auto. It is called "bouncing the trigger" and takes a lot of skill to do.

[spin]

31. I'm referring to a malfunction of the pistol...

From L. Bengtson Arms Co. directions on doing a trigger job for a Colt Model 1911 type pistol:

After the trigger job, the pistol must be test fired. Start by loading a dummy round and a live round into the magazine. Chamber the live round, keeping the pistol pointed down range. Fire. The dummy round should have been chambered and the hammer remain at full cock. If the hammer remained at full cock, load a magazine with two live rounds and fire both. If no problems are encountered, load three rounds and fire. Then load a full magazine and fire it. I recommend that a full box of ammunition be fired through the pistol after a trigger job. REMEMBER, AN IMPROPERLY DONE TRIGGER JOB CAN RESULT IN UNCONTROLLABLE, FULL-AUTO FIRE. TAKE THE TIME TO ENSURE THAT THE JOB HAS BEEN DONE PROPERLY BEFORE RETURNING THE PISTOL TO A CLIENT.
http://www.custompistols.com/bengtson/tooling/searjig.htm

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. The ultimate in automatic weapons.

Altered? Really? Who would ever do that?

[gleaner]

6. I know zippo about guns ....

I'm curious as to what makes Jennings different from the manufacturers you trust? Just an idle question with no motive other than I like to learn about things.

Guns scare the bejeezus out of me. My Dad collected them and taught me how to shoot, but like my Mom I remained wary. ;)

[subcomhd]

8. Just a cheap (in every sense of the word) gun. nt

[TheWraith]

9. Their firearms are cheaply manufactured.

And I don't mean "inexpensive." Jennings is one of the "Ring of fire" companies, a series of cheap gun manufacturing operations in California that kept changing hands every time that the previous owner got in legal trouble for manufacturing defective products.

They're generally of poor build quality, unreliable, and prone to failures. Sometimes in ways that are dangerous to the user. For instance chances are that this incident would have been impossible with a better quality pistol that included a manual safety, or a grip safety, or a firing pin block, or any of the other things a modern pistol is supposed to have.

[subcomhd]

10. Wouldn't someone have had to have altered the sear mechanism?

they are POS, but this sounds like someone had the old file out.

[TheWraith]

16. Possible. But that wouldn't be possible on a proper pistol.

Assume for a second that somebody did attempt to illegally modify the pistol for full-auto fire. (Which is stupid and dangerous in and of itself, but that's beside the point.)

More expensive/better built pistols are designed to be fail-safe, so that even in the event of a malfunction in the sear, they can't fire without the trigger being fully depressed.

[subcomhd]

24. gotcha. I'm a revolver guy myself. several of my shotguns are semi, though.

in fact i have a benelli that can crank out five before the first spent cartridge hits the ground. pretty f'n cool.

[Irreverend IX]

13. Much lower quality.

Jennings is one of the well-known "junk gun" brands, along with Lorcin, Raven, Bryco, Phoenix and some others. They made cheap guns with inferior materials, manufacturing and quality control. I've never heard of a malfunction like this happening with a pistol from a respected make like Glock, Smith & Wesson or Sig, but it is known to happen with low-quality guns. All the junk gun makers I listed have been sued out of business, but new ones come along every now and then.

[krispos42]

44. Hey, I like my little Phoenix

Goes *bang* every time I pull the trigger. Occasional failure to feed, but for a plinker it works pretty well.

[spin]

14. I've never fired one...

but they are very inexpensive and have a bad reputation.

Many of my firearms have had thousands of rounds fired through them and they still look and function like a brand new weapon. My grandchildren will probably inherit these firearms and possibly pass them along to their children.

Some people might argue that if you had little money but needed a firearm, a Jennings 9mm would be better than nothing. Personally, I would buy a baseball bat.

[gleaner]

18. Thanks to you & all OPs for the information.

I think I understand better why the gun did what it did. It is one of the strangest stories of a gun that I have ever heard.

[spin]

21. Fortunately it is a RARE story. (n/t)

[gleaner]

22. Had to be rare ...

I don't think too many people would own guns which chased them around the house and shot at them. ;)

[caballero]

12. It was one of Saddam's guns and he had booby trapped it!

:silly:

It's about 99.999% certain that he either banged it down on the table or released some pressure on a moving part as he put it down. I've never shot a Jennings but I've heard they are crap...this is confirming evidence.

[proteus_lives]

19. What a crappy gun and Jennings sucks!

I'm glad no one was killed.

[doc03]

23. When I was in the Army one of our men

chambered a round in a .45 semi auto and it accidentally discharged until empty. First of all he shouldn't have chambered a round period, second he was in the barracks. He put one bullet through his hand and the others just put some ventilation in the barracks walls. The guy with the weapon was Court Martialed for cambering a round in the barracks and the arms room Sargent was court martialed for issuing a defective weapon.

[spin]

25. Glad to hear no one died in the incident. (n/t)

[Historic NY]

26. Cheap crap even the ghetto would avoid..

http://bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com/bryco.html
<snip>
Bryco Arms and Jennings Firearms Bryco Arms was one of the so called " Ring of Fire" manufacturers of Saturday night special firearms that operated in and around Los Angeles, California.
<snip>

They are no stranger to lawsuits over malfunctions

[Hoopla Phil]

28. If this is true then this is a case where the manufacture should be liable.

If the gun does not operate in a safe manor with an injury then the manufacture is responsible.

[spin]

34. Unless the firearm was modified in some manner and/or had a trigger job ...

preformed.

If this were proven to be the case, then the manufacturer would probably be off the hook.

[TheWraith]

37. Even if it weren't, good luck nailing down Jennings in a lawsuit.

They've been defunct since 2003, replaced by Jimenez Arms.

[SsevenN]

48. I'm thinking this will bring on a lawsuit...

I believe jennings needs to be sued out of buisness, if it turns out it was their fault.


ETA: looks like they are already shut down...

[jeepnstein]

29. That is the only Jennings that ever..

managed to fire more than three rounds without jamming. They are total junk. If you don't have a lot of money and need a gun you can always buy a Hi Point. Jennings is a disaster waiting to happen in one way or another.

Having said that, I'm calling BS on the shooting as it was initially reported. There's something just not right about the whole thing. Oh, and what was he doing with a Jennings in a combat zone? I guess you could leave them out where the enemy could steal them.

[spin]

32. I was thinking that the soldier captured the Jennings...

from an Iraqi.

I admit, it is a strange story.

[jeepnstein]

35. By now...

I'm thinking his commanding officer is getting interested in his situation. Last time I heard, bring backs were forbidden. With all the cool guns available in the Middle East why would he bring back a Jennings? What foreign arms buyer would import them?

[Euromutt]

43. I sincerely doubt a Jennings was ever exported to the Middle East

You want cheap handguns in the Middle East, you can buy Turkish or Egyptian. I'd never even heard of Jennings, Bryco, or the whole "Ring of Fire" before two or three years ago, and I've been interested in guns longer than that.

Unlikely as it sounds, I can only imagine the Navy guy took the thing with him as a back-up gun.

[petronius]

30. Isn't a usual rule at the range that you put guns down open and unloaded?

I would think that it shouldn't have been loaded in the first place until she stepped up and was ready to shoot. In which case it would have been under control when it started to fire...

(Not that I blame the owners - clearly the gun malfunctioned - but it does seem that this could have been avoided with some different handling practice.)

[spin]

33. When I would walk away from the line...

leaving my firearms on the bench, I always made sure the actions on were open and the weapons unloaded.

If I loaded a firearm for another shooter, I would hand it to them with the barrel pointed downrange and the safety on (if it was a pistol). Normally, I allowed the shooter to load the weapon with close supervision if they were new at shooing.

[Euromutt]

51. Says the husband loaded it in preparation for his wife to fire it.

Which is bloody stupid in my not-so-humble opinion. What's the point of her learning to fire the gun if she doesn't know how to load and cock it? Get some Training rounds ("snap caps," if you prefer; I really like A-Zooms http://www.azoomsnapcaps.com/) and practice at home before you go to the range and start messing with live ammo.

And if, as she claims, she's "been around guns all her life," then why the hell couldn't she load it herself?

[tortoise1956]

36. I call BS on this...

Long-time shooters should be familiar with "limp-wristing", where the hold on the weapon is so weak so to prevent the slide from traveling back far enough to eject the spent round and fully chamber the next one. I have done this (once, when I first started shooting pistols), and I have occasionally seen it occur at the range.

So how in the hell did a weapon lying on a counter magically exhaust every round in the magazine?

Something is rotten here...




Edited for rotten typing skills...

[RamboLiberal]

38. I can believe it of a Jennings

Cheap ass POS. They have fired when dropped. Could the guy have laid it down too hard?

And this summer I saw a Glock go full auto on the range - fortunately it was in the shooter's hands pointing down range and occurred on 1 pull of the trigger.

[tortoise1956]

39. Never heard of them

But they don't sound so hot.

As I said in my post, I don't understand how the slide could have kept chambering rounds when it was lying free. Wouldn't it be simliar to throwing cartridges in a fire? Basically, the bullet travels almost no distance at all because the force created by the powder burn is expended in both directions at once.

In any event, the ranges I use would have severely harsh words for me if I laid a loaded weapon, with a round chambered, down on the counter, even if it was pointed downrange. That breaks a whole buttload of gun safety rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. Mainspring can affect this.

Some weapons are more prone to stovepiping and other forms of jams when you limp-wrist them than others. Had a .40 S&W 1911 that I couldn't keep running without clamping down on it like king kong, and other firearms that just flat out refuse to jam no matter how badly I intentionally limp-wrist it.

Incidentally, (the 'hot metal' reference made me think of this) could this be a runaway due to heat, and possibly a badly designed disconnector or something?

[Irreverend IX]

41. I'm guessing the gun is blowback-operated.

Recoil-operated firearms are most sensitive to limp-wristing because the recoil force is used to cycle the action along with the gas pressure on the shell casing. If the gun isn't strongly held, not enough recoil force is transferred to the slide for it to cycle properly, since some recoil force is absorbed by the frame and the shooter's hand.

The Jennings is probably blowback-operated as opposed to recoil-operated, which means that the barrel is fixed in place and does not move and the slide is cycled by the pressure on the shell casing alone. This makes the gun less sensitive to limp-wristing, and blowback-operated guns are also simpler to make.

[paulsby]

40. i used to have a jennings .22

for a little plinkin' gun to use at a farm i lived at.

man, that was one cheap piece of crap.

i don't know what to say either. i have never heard of this happening before, but i'm not sayin' it's not possible.

be interesting to see what the "gun autopsy" :) reveals.

[slackmaster]

45. That is one of the worst, cheapest pistols ever made to begin with

And someone fucked with it?

[gorfle]

46. They may be lucky not to end up in federal prison.

There was a fellow not too long ago who ended up being prosecuted by the BATFE for a rifle that malfunctioned and fired multiple rounds. He was prosecuted for his possession of an unregistered machine gun.

[SsevenN]

47. Why would anyone buy such a crappy product anyway?

Jennings are notoriously cheap and poorly made.

Would you buy a brand new car that cost 500.00$ and expect it to be reliable?

While I understand the need for lower priced arms, for those who would like a form of self-defence, but can't afford to spend much money. But I would NEVER personally own one of these POS.

[Pavulon]

49. Questionable...at best

lots of hits from those, including a guy blasting his left hand.

Better bet...

shitty weapon jams. guy holds weapon in right hand uses left to try and clear. Blasts left hand, then either pulls the trigger or drops it or it slam fired. Either way, if it is pointed in a safe direction it is a non issue.

lesson 2, dont buy shitty cheap weapons. a glock costs 499 new.

[spin]

50. I'm not fond of Glocks because they look like Blocks..

however they work fine and are inexpensive.

[Pavulon]

52. I have several

all will shoot as well as high dollar .45's though they are ugly.

[spin]

53. I found they are more reliable than most 1911 style .45's however...

[scrinmaster]

54. That's the range I shoot at.

I also avoid shitty guns like those, they should have cleared it before setting it down, though. I always make sure my firearms have the magazine dropped and the action locked or propped open when I'm not actually shooting them.

[spin]

55. Did you hear any range rumors about the incident? (n/t)

[scrinmaster]

56. No, I'll ask the RO next time I go.

He usually tries to talk my ear off, I doubt he'll be able to stay quiet about it.

[JonQ]

57. This should make some people happy

finally an example of the gun being the aggressor.

[spin]

58. So true, so true. (n/t)