The anti-HCR scare of the day apparently from the NRA

[doc03]

there is an amendment attached to the HCR bill that will put a $50 tax on each of your guns.

[slackmaster]

1. In addition to the existing 11% federal excise tax?

:crazy:

[doc03]

4. Well a few weeks ago a guy told me

there was a bill in the House that would make you pay $50 on each gun when you file your taxes, I told him I Googled the thing and a Congressman had such a bill way back in like 2000 or something and he couldn't even get a co-sponsor. So I saw the guy a few days later and he said he called the NRA and they told him it had passed way back then and all it took was a signature from Obama and it would be law. So today today I was at a Cabela's store and heard yet another version, that it was in the HCR bill. The sad part of it is I know damn well their employees don't have health insurance, another case of morons being scared into voting against their own best interest.

[eqfan592]

5. Man, stories like that are shockingly groan-worthy.

[GreenStormCloud]

6. Nothing about it on the NRA website.

The NRA site has a page debunking the SB 2099 rumor. That is the rumor that claims you will have to list all your guns on the IRS form and pay a tax on them.

[doc03]

10. I don't know where they get that crap, but I have seen things

crazier than that in letters from the NRA, it wouldn't surprise me at all. I figure they unofficially get the rumor started, you know most people will still insist on believing the worst if it fits their agenda even if it is debunked later.

[GreenStormCloud]

14. They don't need to get rumors started. Rumors are self-generating.

The NRA gets better mileage by debunking unfounded rumors. Then when they do say something, it has more weight.

[Tejas]

20. Probably from

sources such as the OP of this thread.

Post a rumor without a supporting link, and then wonder how disinfo gets spread.

[slackmaster]

9. That would be unconstitutional and unenforceable

The .gov doesn't know where most firearms are, and I aim to keep it that way.

[krispos42]

34. Obama has 10 days to veto a bill,otherwise it becomes law.

(barring the pocket veto).

After Congress sends him a bill he can:

Sign it.
Not sign it and it becomes law in the next 10 days
Not sign it and it dies if Congress goes out of session in the next 10 days (pocket veto)
Veto it.

[eqfan592]

2. wtf?

Do you have a link to that somewhere?

[doc03]

7. No it was just today's gun shop rumor I guess

but I suspect it came from the NRA, they usally do. I get letters from them every so often with such rumors always asking for an emergency donation to defeat it. I would like to know how many millions they have raised over the years using Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton's names. They should get a percentage of the take for using their name and picture.

[benEzra]

11. Probably a corruption of some Gun Owners of America talking point.

GOA has indeed spoken out against health care reform, but the much larger NRA certainly has not, and has expended some effort debunking false claims by others.

http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200912100004

[GreenStormCloud]

12. In 2005 Kennedy did try to get the venerable .30-30 outlawed as a "cop killer".

That particular cartridge dates back to 1894, possibly earlier. At the time it was 109 years old, and Kennedy named it specifically in an anti-gun speech.

Hillary hasn't been any friend of pro-RKBA folks either. She has supported proposals to require all handgun owners to be licensed, lock up guns and store ammo separately, supported AWB, supports renewed AWB, and she is one of the ones claiming that Mexican drug cartels are getting most of their guns from the U.S.

[taurus145]

18. 1893 n/t

[eqfan592]

13. It could be from the NRA...

...but I haven't received any emails or anything about this particular issue. I actually like my email sub through them as they do a good job of keeping me informed about 2a issues in my home state of Wisconsin.

[GreenStormCloud]

21. Did you ever play "Telephone"?

Ten people in a line. Tell the first one something, and see what it is like when you hear it from the tenth? Rumors are the same way. Except that they aren't linear. As they mutate, each mutation also spreads. One rumor become several similar rumors. No conspiracy theories about NRA needed.

[TheWraith]

3. Wouldn't particularly surprise me if they were saying that.

Whatever the useful work done by the organization itself, the NRA's upper leadership tends to be right-wing kooks.

[GreenStormCloud]

8. It would surprise me. In fact, the NRA debunks rumors like that.

The NRA is fully aware that they would lose credibility if they spread rumors like that. The NRA is a single issue organization. They would lose strength if they took on other issues besides gun. They gain the strength they have by being intensely focused on one issue and one issue only - guns.

[doc03]

15. I have to disagree about the NRA being a single issue

organization, on the surface yes. I belonged to the NRA for years and quit because in my opinion they are basically right wing hacks. I have received many letters over the years with such accusations and distortions that's why I quit. They lost their credibility with me years ago. I can't stand Wayne Lapierre. I support the 2nd Amendment but I can't and will never join the NRA again.

[PavePusher]

16. And thus you reinforce the perception.

"I support the 2nd Amendment but I can't and will never join the NRA again."

If more "liberals" would join and promote solely the pro-2A stance, this would never be an issue. The problem is that "liberalism" abandoned such a stance a while back and is now having to struggle upstream to regain their own credibility.

So it goes.

I personally am a member of the NRA, GOA, Second Amendment Foundation, JPFO and trying to get a Pink Pistols membership (National level orgs). If there are any more out there, let me know. Also a member of AzCDL.

I'd like to support the ACLU, but their hypocracy on the 2nd really chaps my ass. If you say you are going to support all Civil Rights, to the point of defending racist groups and criminals (and I have no problem with that), then you need to actually... ummm... support all Civil Rights. Maybe I should just join the Nevada branch and be done with it.... Edit: yes, I know, my own hypocracy is waving in the wind....

[iverglas]

33. your own hypocrasy?

Hypocrisy, maybe you meant. But that's not what I'm seeing waving in the wind. Nothing there looks hypocritical to me at all, except maybe your stated reasons for belonging to / supporting / paying money to all those filthy right-wing outfits and chastising of others for not joining them precisely because they are filthy right-wing outfits.

Oh, maybe that's what you meant.

[GreenStormCloud]

19. What other issues, besides guns, is the NRA active in?

[safeinOhio]

23. Good thing some one debunks the NRA bullshit

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html

NRA Targets Obama
September 22, 2008
Updated: September 29, 2008
It falsely claims in mailers and TV ads that Obama plans to ban handguns, hunting ammo and use of a gun for home defense.
Summary

A National Rifle Association advertising campaign distorts Obama's position on gun control beyond recognition.

The NRA is circulating printed material and running TV ads making unsubstantiated claims that Obama plans to ban use of firearms for home defense, ban possession and manufacture of handguns, close 90 percent of gun shops and ban hunting ammunition.

Much of what the NRA passes off as Obama's "10 Point Plan to 'Change' the Second Amendment" is actually contrary to what he has said throughout his campaign: that he "respects the constitutional rights of Americans to bear arms" and "will protect the rights of hunters and other law-abiding Americans to purchase, own, transport, and use guns."


The NRA, however, simply dismisses Obama's stated position as "rhetoric" and substitutes its own interpretation of his record as a secret "plan." Said an NRA spokesman: "We believe our facts."


I think I would want to support factcheck.org and DU rather than the NRA

Perhaps so, but believing something doesn't make it so. And we find the NRA has cherry-picked, twisted and misrepresented Obama's record to come up with a bogus "plan."

[GreenStormCloud]

24. And the grain of truth at the bottom of those.

In 2005 Obama voted for the Kennedy Amendment. In his speech introducing the rider, Kennedy specifically targeted the venerable .30-30, a cartridge that first appeared in 1893, as being a cop-killer. The amendment would have had the effect of banning almost all hunting ammunition in the U.S.

Handguns for self-defense. While an IL state legislator, Obama voted against a bill that would have given amnesty to anyone who used a gun in self-defense, even if the gun was otherwise illegal. That was SB-2165. Obama voted against it twice, it passed, was vetoed, legislature overrode the veto.

Obama, as a state legislator, did sign off on that questionnaire that some gun-control group sent. Obama checked that he would seek to ban all handguns. http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/04/obama-forgets-w.html Obama's personal handwriting is on the questionnaire.

His web page did support making the AWB permanent. At the time, the legislation in congress was for a new, improved AWB that was draconian in its restrictions.

Obama has stated that he supports a federal ban on concealed carry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-4jqZSEo0Q (Obama's own words)

Obama supported the unconstitutional DC ban on handguns.

Factcheck simply did not do their research on that one.

[safeinOhio]

25. Like most highly paid lobbest

the NRA always resorts to sins of omissions in their political ads. $40 million spent to twist facts where ever they want.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/23/607954/-NRA-lies-about-Obama-and-ignores-pro-gun-Supreme-Court-ruling-

One thing struck has me about the NRA’s rhetoric this year:  The NRA is ignoring that recent monumental Supreme Court decision in Heller v. District of Columbia, which finally held that the right to keep and bear arms is, in fact, an individual right.  They are acting like it never happened. It’s another lie -- a lie of omission.  My organization, American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA), filed an amicus brief in the Heller case.  It was historic -- and the result we wanted.
It was widely asserted that the leadership of the NRA never wanted that case to move forward.  Now, after gun owners won a stunning victory, the NRA hierarchy is essentially ignoring the result.
Reading through the NRA’s anti-Obama mailings and watching the group’s ads, one would think nothing has changed since the previous election.  Every four years, the leaders of the NRA haul out the same old attacks against the Democratic presidential candidate.  They don't let facts get in the way.  Instead, Wayne LaPierre and his partisan cronies use their members' resources to launch the same old false partisan attacks.  

This year should be different.  Gun owners got the critical ruling we've long sought from the U.S. Supreme Court by winning  the D.C. gun ban case.  Our gun rights are protected from Congress and the White House.  But, the NRA is acting like that decision never happened and doesn’t really count- but it did and it does-period!  That's why the usual attacks won't work this year. Gun owners are more aware of what’s really going on than the NRA leaders think.  We know our gun rights now are safe, and now we want to secure our economy and protect our environment getting this country headed back in the right direction.  
The leadership of the NRA is living in the past.  They're doing a double disservice to gun owners who are fighting for the environment and fighting for their jobs.  LaPierre needs a new act because this one has gotten really old. It might make his right wing friends happy, but it's failing the nation's hundred million gun owners miserably.


There are groups much more deserving of your support like the AHSA

[PavePusher]

26. Nice avoidance of the issues and facts.

And, if you actually do some research, you'll find that the AHSA is not particularly pro-2A.

Lastly, the Second Amendment has little to nothing to do with hunting.

[safeinOhio]

27. Did the NRA file

an amicus brief in the Heller case? I supported it. Facts are, the NRA has distorted Obama's statements on gun control and the AHSA hasn't. The Second Amendment IS important to us hunters. I'm sure you don't support DU because some here are not 100% in agreement with you.

[safeinOhio]

28. Sounds like me and most of America

http://www.huntersandshooters.org/about

The American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA) is a national grassroots organization committed to safe and responsible gun ownership. We are a mainstream group of hunters who are looking to belong to a gun owners association that doesn't have a radical agenda.
Our Values
AHSA is committed to supporting the right to keep and bear arms, protecting our homes, and preserving our liberties.
Hunting and sport shooting are American values AHSA will vigorously defend.
AHSA is dedicated to protecting and maintaining our nation's valuable wilderness resources for the preservation and use of all Americans.
AHSA is committed to safety in all aspects of the shooting sports including the recognition that adults are responsible for keeping guns out of the hands of children.
AHSA is committed to supporting our nation’s law enforcement officers in their fight against easy access to guns by criminals, terrorists and others.

AHSA is a non-partisan organization that advocates and advances sensible public policies. We will never support unfettered access to all types of weapons.

If you are not a mainstream American, it is not for you. My guess is that this type of organization can do more for gun rights than the NRA by making points that moderates can agree with. As with all issues, the moderate majority will have the last word as they will vote for those that support their thinking on important issues. A very few number of gun owners belong to the NRA for good reasons. I'm happy to see a more moderate group and would be willing to support them with my dollars, just as I do DU.

[GreenStormCloud]

30. Very few gun owners in NRA??? LOL.

NRA has about 4.3+ million members.

The AHSA that you are pushing has about 135,000.

[safeinOhio]

31. Yup

4.3 million members out of 55 gun owners, what's that 12 or 13%

Then a great majority of them do not agree with the NRA on many issues
of 832 gun owners (including 401 NRA members) by conservative pollster Frank Luntz. The poll finds that NRA members are “more reasonable than the organization’s leaders and supporters in Congress in understanding the urgency of keeping guns out of the wrong hands:
– 86 percent of all gun owners believe the country can “do more to stop criminals from getting guns while also protecting the rights of citizens to freely own them.”
– 78 percent of NRA members support “requiring gun owners to alert police if their guns are lost or stolen.”
– 82 percent of NRA members support “prohibiting people on the terrorist watch lists from purchasing guns.”
– 69 percent of NRA members support “requiring all gun sellers at gun shows to conduct criminal background checks of the people buying guns.”

and yes I did point out some of the distortions of the NRA about Obama. Some of those from factcheck are borderline, others are pretty much fact.

The NRA has a long head start and AHSA a long way to go. Thanks to DU thousands now are finding out about AHSA and can now switch to a reasonable organization.

Also noted that the NRA has planted disrupters in other liberal groups. I'm starting wonder if some of the "support the NRA on every issue" poster here are paid by the NRA or if they are just volunteers.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. More likely just apathetic.

Apathy is a huge problem in the U.S. Look at the percentage of people that don't both to vote. To say that 87% of gun owners don't join NRA because they are hostile to the NRA is silly. I suggest that most of them are merely apathetic.

All of us want to keep guns out of the wrong hands. The question is what measures will and won't work. NRA supported the NICS system, for example. But waiting periods, and one-gun-a-month laws and outright handgun bans accomplish nothing.

The terrorist watch list is a violation of civil liberties without even bringing guns into it.

Many of us on this forum, including myself, would like to see a way that private sales could be opened to the NICS system.

You have NOT responded to my list of Obama's anti-gun actions and stances. You have ducked it. Factcheck did not do their job well.

AHSA is NOT strong enough on 2nd Amendment rights for me. They are too ready to surrender rights.

Personal accusations, or hints thereof, do nothing to support your points. Please don't sink to the level of most of the anti-gun posters.

[SteveM]

36. Frankly, the "Gungeon" may be the most "mainstream" ...

As a group, the pro-2A posters have the best understanding of prohibitionism, the racist history of gun-control, the crap-data used to support gun control, and the political savvy required to defend 2A. Perhaps most important, the Guns Forum "is in the house" of a major liberal-progressive Democratic organization, and in terms of Web sites, may be the ONLY such group. Here, it can do what all other groups cannot: work to remove "gun-control" from the philosophy and platform of progressive politics. It has no business being there.

Join now!

[one-eyed fat man]

35. Just in case you missed it.....

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/one-eyed%20fat%20man/6

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=213954&mesg_id=214193


How many times does the party platform and the President's website have to talk about their intent to reinstate the Assault Weapons Ban for you to believe they really mean it?

Tha AHSA was very vocal about its support for reinstatement of the ban (now recently having stuffed a rag in Schoenke's mouth over it) It was, at last check, big on the gunshow loophole and 50 cal sniper rifle "banned"-wagon.

So what is AHSA besides shills for Brady and Bloomberg in flannel shirts?

[GreenStormCloud]

29. I notice you ducked the examples of Obama's anti-gun stances.

The NRA is single issue - guns only. Lately, we of the Democratic Party, have been putting up presidential candidates who are strongly pro-gun control. So naturally, the NRA beats them over the head with their records. To stop that, all we have to do is put up a candidate who is strongly pro-RKBA. The NRA does give A ratings to Democratic candidates - if the candidate earns it. And they give F ratings to Republicans - if the candidate earns it.

Heller was nice, but was only a start. Now we need incorporation and strict scrutiny.

Then national reciprocity on concealed carry would be nice.

Most other gun issues are state issues and not national.

[Hoopla Phil]

17. Would this also have a $50.00 tax every time you cast your vote?

[Euromutt]

22. It's not the NRA pushing this story

This kind of story has been around before, concerning a supposed Senate bill, SB 2099, which would supposedly require you to register your firearms on your IRS form 1040.
The NRA-ILA has debunked that particular story here: http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=5098
(There was an SB 2099 that would have put handguns into the same category as short-barreled long guns under the National Firearms Act, requiring registration and a tax stamp, but that was nine years ago.)

In addition, the head of the NRA-ILA, Chris Cox, published this piece http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=367&issue=047 warning against getting into a lather over every rumor.