not all firearms owners are gun militants

[iverglas]

Not even all NRA members are. I knew that. Did you?

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-guns16-2009dec16,0,641659.story
(the author's mischaracterization of the "gun show loophole" is not relevant, in case you're tempted)

Gun control's NRA supporters
A poll finds surprising support among NRA members for some aspects of gun control.

... When asked whether they supported or opposed a "proposal requiring all gun sellers at gun shows to conduct criminal background checks of the people buying guns," 69% of the NRA members and 85% of the nonmembers were in favor. This goes to the so-called gun-show loophole, which allows used-gun merchants to sell firearms without doing the background checks that are required when selling new guns. Attempts in Congress to close this loophole have died after meeting strong opposition from the NRA.

Gun owners also were asked whether they agreed or disagreed with this statement: "The federal government should not restrict the police's ability to access, use and share data that helps them enforce federal, state and local gun laws." This goes to the Tiahrt Amendments, provisions attached to federal spending bills that interfere with the ability of police agencies to use federal gun-trace data. The NRA is a big supporter of these amendments, but it's out of touch with its members; 69% of those polled agreed there should be no federal restrictions on trace data, as did 74% of gun owners as a whole.

Huh.

[Renew Deal]

1. Interesting

Thanks for posting. The NRA leadership is beyond reasonable on all the seemingly common sense issues. Maybe the membership can change the way they are operated.

[pipoman]

9. The editors of the LA Times have just hoodwinked you with their

lies and dishonesty.

[Pavulon]

2. Umm, yeah. most of us make nice livings and are happy decent people

I have no reason to sell a gun to any person I dont know or cant perform a background check on. NICS is not available to me if I chose to sell to a private party. Which is legal at a gun show or in my garage.

It is the really stupid shit like my inability to have a ccw that works in all states. I have gone through several SSBI during my life (establishing I am a law abiding good guy) and still deal with stupid handgun laws.

Dumbshittery about mag limits and per month purchase caps etc are just insane. AWB bills written by ignorant assholes to try to please people to stupid to define an assault weapon are annoying.

Thankfully gun control is dying out as a political topic.

[bossy22]

3. You are a smart cookie

you of all people should know what push polling is...and this is a classic example.

If you randomly polled a thousand americans and asked if "baby-killing electric razors" should be banned from the commercial market- you'd probably find that the majority would say yes- even though there is no such thing

IMHO polling on complicated issues is pointless- most of the people answering the questions probably don't really know much about such issues

[iverglas]

5. odd

To think that so many people who belong to the NRA -- those numbers being constantly bruited about here in the Guns forum as evidence of how wedded they are to that RKBA thingy -- would know so little about, oh, the gun show loophole debate that they could inadvertently give the wrong answer to such an easy question. The NRA must just not be doing its member-education stuff right. Because that one really just isn't that complicated. Actually, the concept behind the other one isn't either. I'm sure the NRA could have framed it better, though. Do you want Big Government and Democrats to know about your guns??

The other questions I'd have to see, and I haven't got to looking for the actual survey yet. It may be a little early for it to be accessible.


grammar fixed

[bossy22]

12. the NRA dumbs down issues too

thats my biggest complaint and one of the reasons i am not a member. I wouldnt be surprised if more than half of the NRA membership didnt really know the "gun show loophole" issue with much depth.

[eqfan592]

17. Do you know the "gun show loophole" with much depth?

I'm only asking because you imply that a great many people do not, yet you have not demonstrated an understanding of it yourself.

[bossy22]

22. a great many people don't

and to answer your question, the reason i havent demonstrated it is because i don't want to spend 5 hours typing a "book".

[eqfan592]

28. It doesn't take 5 hours to explain.

First of all, there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole." A licensed firearms dealer selling at a gun show still has to perform background checks. There's no special set of rules governing gun shows. However, there are also private sellers allowed at gun shows, and for people performing private sales, there is no requirement for them to perform a background check. Again, there is nothing special about a gun show in this case. These same people legally can and do do the same thing at their house, at a garage sale, at a flee market, etc. So, a more appropriate and useful way of putting it is that there is a "private sales loophole." You'll find that many of us around here support the opening of the background check system to private sellers, so long as appropriate measures are taken to protect the privacy of individuals.

Calling it a "gun show loophole" is disingenuous at best on the part of the anti-gun movement.

[Tejas]

18. Yep, Google "the word doctors" and

the stench foams over quickly.


http://patricksperry.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/its-not-what-you-say-its-what-people-hear/


wow!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

4. This is not surprising.

Many, even here on DU, have been saying for quite some time that it would be great if individuals could contact NICS for a simple Yes/No NICS background check.

As you already mentioned, the authors concept of the "gun-show loophole" leave much to be desired.
I'm not a big fan of his dance routine using undefined/arbitrary terms like "used-gun merchants".

The Tiahrt Amendment make alot of sense actually. Similar to needing a warrant (or probable cause) prior to a search and /or seizure, the Tiahrt Amendment requires the individual of interest in the trace-database to be the subject of an investigation before police can look at the BATFE records on that person. Short and sweet: the Tiahrt Amendment protects everyones informational/personal privacy.

[iverglas]

8. no ...

As you already mentioned, the authors concept of the "gun-show loophole" leave much to be desired.

I had taken the sloppy characterization to be the product of the person who wrote the article, not whoever composed the survey question itself.

As I said, I haven't gone looking for the survey and results/analysis ...


And yes ...

I have indeed taken note of the expressions of support for at least allowing (if not requiring) background checks in all private sales. And been duly favourably impressed.

[HopeHoops]

6. There was a time when the NRA was respectable. Now they are just a political movement.

Yes, I own guns.

The NRA's gun safety program was once perhaps the best in the country. It may still be good, but I won't support them monetarily or publicly. They've mutated into an "anti anything involving Democrats" special interest. Hopefully the members will be able to steer it back toward providing a service rather than an ideological lobbying group.

My eldest two (of three) daughters have taken gun safety courses from non-NRA ranges. The youngest will probably take her course this summer. I think that's a valuable course for all children to take. At any time they could be faced with a situation involving a loaded gun. They're all 2nd degree black belts and know how to disarm someone with a handgun, but they will STILL need to know what to do with the gun after they gain control of it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

10. "They've mutated into an 'anti anything involving Democrats' special interest."

That's either willfully ignorant or simply retarded.
They support politicians who support gun ownership rights.

You might want to look into thier campaign contributions sometime.
Their endorsement and donations extend to whichever candidate has proved they are support RKBA.

They do however have a noticable aversion to the Obama and his administration...
Not surprising though since his VP, AG, SOS and platform were anti-RKBA affiliated.

[krispos42]

26. It's being taken over by Republicans

Which means they are slowly becoming a fear-mongering simplistic talking-point generator. I'm waiting for them to hold some kind of re-enactment of the battles of Lexington and Concord, with ATF agents as British troops and teabaggers as militiamen.

[HopeHoops]

27. LOL! Thanks, thanks a lot. Now I'll have THAT image stuck in my head all day!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[gorfle]

33. This is untrue.

They've mutated into an "anti anything involving Democrats" special interest.

The NRA has and does endorse Democrats. As I recall, in the last election both of my Democratic candidates were endorsed by the NRA, not including the office of President.

The NRA is single-issue focused, and will support whatever elected official supports the right to keep and bear arms, and will likewise oppose the opposite.

[pipoman]

7. Hmmm

This goes to the so-called gun-show loophole, which allows used-gun merchants to sell firearms without doing the background checks that are required when selling new guns.

Uh, no. Checks are required by any 'merchant', as defined by any dictionary. They are also required on new and used guns. The only time they are not required is for the sale of an individually owned firearm, by a private citizen. If that person is buying used guns for resale, they must have an ffl and must conduct NICS checks.


Definitions of merchant on the Web:

* a businessperson engaged in retail trade
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Merchants function as professionals who deal with trade, dealing in commodities that they do not produce themselves, in order to produce profit.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant

* A person who traffics in commodities for profit; The owner or operator of a retail business
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Merchant

* A business that has contracted with an acquirer for card processing services and accepts credit cards as a method of payment for goods or services.
www.merchantaccountadvisor.com/merchant-account-glossary.html


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=cr4&q=define%3Amerchant&btnG=Search

Attempts in Congress to close this loophole have died after meeting strong opposition from the NRA.

Uh, no. Attempts in Congress to close the loophole have died after meeting strong opposition from the Constitution. This is an intrastate commerce issue, the feds have no jurisdiction in control of person to person intrastate commerce.

"The federal government should not restrict the police's ability to access, use and share data that helps them enforce federal, state and local gun laws." This goes to the Tiahrt Amendments, provisions attached to federal spending bills that interfere with the ability of police agencies to use federal gun-trace data.

Uh, no. The Tiahrt Amendment has not one fucking thing to do with interference with law enforcement...as long as the law enforcement is investigating a crime...you know, the same restrictions put on use of NCIC. Gun trace data is not kept for Michael Bloominidiot to use for his own political purposes, or for law enforcement to share with their media buddies. There has not been one single solitary crime committed which required gun trace data since the Tiahrt Amendment which has been unavailable to the investigating agency...none..

Of coarse you knew all this already as did the dishonest idiots who wrote the poll questions, the editor(s) of the LA Times....just another desperate attempt to patch up a sinking ship..

[iverglas]

11. oh, for pity's sake

Argue about pointless shit much?

If the SURVEY contained that characterization of the "gun show loophole", you'd have a point. All that verbiage about what appears to be an inaccurate characterization in the newspaper report of the survey results ... yeesh. As I said pre-emptively: irrelevant.



http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/federal/tiahrt.shtml

The Tiahrt Amendments, named for their original sponsor, U.S. Representative Todd Tiahrt (R-KS), are provisions attached to federal spending bills that make it harder for law enforcement officers to aggressively pursue criminals who buy and sell illegal guns. The amendments restrict cities, states and even the police from fully accessing and using Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) gun trace data, which can show where illegal guns are coming from, who buys them and how they get trafficked across state lines and into our communities. Furthermore, the Tiahrt provisions require the Federal Bureau of Investigation to destroy certain background check records within 24 hours, making it nearly impossible to use those records to help solve crimes or to identify gun buyers with criminal histories who were mistakenly approved. The Tiahrt Amendments also block ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct inventory checks to detect loss and theft, which law enforcement says is a dangerous back channel source for criminals who are in the market for illegal guns.

... How Tiahrt Harms Law Enforcement
While some components of the Tiahrt Amendments were improved in 2007, several damaging provisions continue to tie the hands of law enforcement.

* State and local authorities are still restricted from having full access to aggregated trace data:
The Tiahrt Amendments force gun trace data requests to be made in connection with individual criminal investigations or prosecutions, blocking full access to the aggregate data that law enforcement need to examine gun trafficking patterns and make key connections between separate cases. Furthermore, state and local governments are prohibited from seeing trace data or using it in administrative license reviews.

* NICS background check records are still destroyed within 24 hours:
The Tiahrt Amendments require the Justice Department to destroy the record of a buyer whose NICS background check was approved within 24 hours. This makes it harder to catch law-breaking gun dealers who falsify their records, and it makes it more difficult to identify and track straw purchasers who buy guns on behalf of criminals who wouldn't be able to pass a background check.

* ATF still does not have the power to require dealer inventory checks to detect lost and stolen guns:
While dealers must notify ATF if they discover that guns from their inventories have been lost or stolen, the Tiahrt Amendments prevent ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts. ATF reported that in 2007 it found 30,000 guns missing from dealer inventories based on its inspection of just 9.3% of gun dealers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27036614/ns/politics-briefing_book_issues_08/

Obama supports the rollback of the Tiahrt Amendment, a measure that prevents the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BAFTE) from releasing information from its database of firearm trace data to anyone other than law enforcement officials investigating a particular crime. Obama says that the amendment prevents local law enforcement from identifying the sources of illegal gun transfers. Supporters of Tiahrt, including the NRA, say that it protects the privacy of law-abiding gun owners. McCain also supports the repeal of the Tiahrt amendment, and gave a speech on the Senate floor in opposition to it.

Damn. Lose-lose there for the gun militants, I guess.

[pipoman]

14. Choose your sources carefully

Mayorsagainstillegalguns? For the love of fuck...

* State and local authorities are still restricted from having full access to aggregated trace data:
The Tiahrt Amendments force gun trace data requests to be made in connection with individual criminal investigations or prosecutions, blocking full access to the aggregate data that law enforcement need to examine gun trafficking patterns and make key connections between separate cases. Furthermore, state and local governments are prohibited from seeing trace data or using it in administrative license reviews.

As I said, mayor bloominidiot wants to use confidential data to his own political gain. It isn't law enforcement who wants access to gun trace data, it is politicos. Of coarse the key word here being "aggregate", local and state law enforcement doesn't need aggregate data, the BATFE has full access to aggregate data and it is their jurisdiction to investigate suspected illegal transactions by FFL dealers.

* NICS background check records are still destroyed within 24 hours:
The Tiahrt Amendments require the Justice Department to destroy the record of a buyer whose NICS background check was approved within 24 hours. This makes it harder to catch law-breaking gun dealers who falsify their records, and it makes it more difficult to identify and track straw purchasers who buy guns on behalf of criminals who wouldn't be able to pass a background check.

NICS checks are destroyed because there is no national registration in the US. Collating individual transactions equates to registration.

* ATF still does not have the power to require dealer inventory checks to detect lost and stolen guns:
While dealers must notify ATF if they discover that guns from their inventories have been lost or stolen, the Tiahrt Amendments prevent ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts. ATF reported that in 2007 it found 30,000 guns missing from dealer inventories based on its inspection of just 9.3% of gun dealers.

Total hogshit. The BATFE can walk into any FFL dealers place of business any time they want and do the inventory themselves, look at transaction records, and purchase records.

[iverglas]

16. oh, yeah, gosh, you're right, gee, I didn't notice that ...

Mayorsagainstillegalguns? For the love of fuck...

What a fool I am.

Of course, it couldn't be that I intentionally sought out the source connected with the survey to find and present their argument regarding the issue in that particular survey question. No, that's beyond me, that is.



Source says:

... the aggregate data that law enforcement need to examine gun trafficking patterns and make key connections between separate cases.

You say:

As I said, mayor bloominidiot wants to use confidential data to his own political gain.

Well, if you say so, and I guess you do say so. Oh, and you say:

It isn't law enforcement who wants access to gun trace data, it is politicos.

And, well, again, if you say so. I certainly wouldn't want to ask you to back up your naked assertion with any substantiating facts.

Of coarse the key word here being "aggregate", local and state law enforcement doesn't need aggregate data, the BATFE has full access to aggregate data and it is their jurisdiction to investigate suspected illegal transactions by FFL dealers.

And it has all the resources in the world to do that with! Yes! And of course it is not within state and local authorities jurisdiction to investigate violations of state and local laws in their jurisdictions, nooooo.

NICS checks are destroyed because there is no national registration in the US. Collating individual transactions equates to registration.

And destroying records, especially within 24 hours equates to a very handy way of concealing evidence of violations of laws. (Hell, why shouldn't systematic straw purchasers have all the protection the law can give them?) I guess you didn't see that assertion in what you "replied" to. Why did you even bother with the copying and pasting?

Total hogshit. The BATFE can walk into any FFL dealers place of business any time they want and do the inventory themselves, look at transaction records, and purchase records.

I guess you think this is a response to:

the Tiahrt Amendments prevent ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts

Not sure how (and I could refer you back to that question about resources), but then I probably shouldn't lose any sleep about it.

[pipoman]

19. ...

And it has all the resources in the world to do that with! Yes! And of course it is not within state and local authorities jurisdiction to investigate violations of state and local laws in their jurisdictions, nooooo.

If they are in fact investigating a criminal act, they can get data. If they are on a fishing expedition, usually for political purposes, they can't access the data...simple and as it should be...we wouldn't want public information where nut job christian zealots could target a person, hold a rally and incite a crowd to "snuff out" the person, who by the way isn't charged with any crime I can find record of.



And destroying records, especially within 24 hours equates to a very handy way of concealing evidence of violations of laws. (Hell, why shouldn't systematic straw purchasers have all the protection the law can give them?) I guess you didn't see that assertion in what you "replied" to. Why did you even bother with the copying and pasting?

As I said, if you or they want national gun registration then by golly that is what they should seek..NICS was adopted in an effort to keep prohibited people from purchasing firearms. It has worked better than most government programs.

I guess you think this is a response to:

the Tiahrt Amendments prevent ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts

Not sure how (and I could refer you back to that question about resources), but then I probably shouldn't lose any sleep about it.

I don't know for sure what the decision to disallow ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts. and I don't feel like looking it up right now..maybe later..the fact remains that if the BATFE suspects violations with an FFL dealer, if the local law enforcement brings evidence, you and I both know that there will be agents investigating. As with any other business there are a small percentage of gun dealers who are corrupt, no doubt. The rigidity of licensure exceeds Realtors, insurance agents, private detectives, and dozens of other pro licensure required businesses, the numbers of corrupt shops are small and easily enforceable by the BATFE. This brings another question. Why in hell, with Dems in the White House and both houses, can we not redistribute some of the Bush spending to fully fund the BATFE? The NRA would likely support it as would most gun owners.

[SteveM]

35. I miss the visage of the Great Projectionist. Has he got snuff in his mouth? (nt)

[iverglas]

36. oh dear

I think -..___... wants a word with you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=275703&mesg_id=276276

"BTW... it's improper, poor etiquette and against DU rules to hotlink pictures Copyright issues and Bandwidth Theft on other websites."

:rofl:

Oh, excuse me. Of course you took that photo yourself.

[Jackson1999]

29. Bloomberg has done this before

Several years ago, Bloomberg ran undercover sting operations in VA trying to buy illegal guns. He didn't call the ATF with his findings, but instead held a press conference.

He was rebuked by the ATF who said that he potentially interfered with 18 current ATF investigations.

Bloomberg has stated that he wants the data to do more such investigations and to sue individual gun stores.

It is not up to a city mayor, or local police to go after interstate trafficking. This is the very real scenario that Tiahrt seeks to avoid.

* ATF discovers through their trace data that an unusual amount of trace guns are coming from XYZ gun shop in Ohio

* They begin their investigation and discover that this small shop may be part of a larger MS-13 gun trafficking ring.

* They begin to pursue all avenues, collecting evidence, and putting undercover officers in place.

* Bloomberg notices gun shop XYZ from the ATF data as well.

* He holds a press conference and announces a lawsuit against XYZ.

* XYZ stops illegal sales immediately, thereby thwarting the ATF investigation.


BTW-After the shooting in Times Square last week, the NYPD knew in a matter of hours where/who/when the gun was purchased and where/who/when the gun was reported stolen. The ATF jumped into action to investigate.

[beevul]

23. Oh my, mayors against illegal guns, theres a credible source...NOT.

Baltimore Mayor Sheila Dixon, police and press in tow, made a very public point of “visiting the homes of gun offenders,” The Baltimore Sun reported. I guess that beat attending her arraignment in criminal court. “The mayor was charged last month with theft, perjury and misconduct after a state prosecutor’s probe,” the story continued. Dixon is a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun coalition of mayors.

“Hartford’s mayor turned himself in Tuesday on charges of having a city contractor do $40,000 in work at his home and paying for it only after being confronted by investigators,” the AP reported. Mayor Eddie A. Perez “was charged with receiving a bribe and falsifying evidence … The contractor, Carlos Costa, told investigators he believed he would be shut out of lucrative city contracts had he not done the work for free ...”

Perez is a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun coalition of ...

“Racine, Wis., Mayor Arrested On Child Porn Charge,” read the CBS2Chicago.com headline. “Gary Becker, 51, Released On Bond.”

Becker was a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun coalition ...

“Birmingham Mayor Larry Langford was arrested … on federal charges and is being held at the federal courthouse,” wrote reporter Val Walton in The Birmingham News.

“Langford accused in a US Securities and Exchange Commission lawsuit of not disclosing $156,000 in payments … as part of a plan to secure Jefferson County financial business,” the story explained. Langford is a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun …

“A municipal court judge in this shore town found the mayor of Jersey City guilty of obstructing justice and resisting arrest in a clash with a police officer a little more than a year ago,” Jonathan Miller wrote in The New York Times. “The mayor, Jerramiah T. Healy, said in a news conference after the verdict that he had no intention of resigning his office …”

Healey is a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s …

“The former Detroit mayor is moving to a new home…a 15-by-10-foot county jail cell where he will spend the next 120 days for lying during a civil trial to conceal an extramarital affair,” Time Magazine reported. “ Kilpatrick resigned in September after 8 months of accusations, denials and litigation that cost the city millions of dollars …”

Kilpatrick was a member of …

“Potential jurors’ opinions of Jackson Mayor Frank Melton were mixed … during the second day of jury selection in the upcoming federal civil rights trial of Melton …” Kathleen Baydala wrote in The Clarion Ledger. “Melton accused of violating search-and-seizure laws related to role in warrantless raid five to 25 years in prison if convicted on all counts.”

Melton is a member …

“More than a year after denying it, the newly elected mayor of Portland has admitted having a sexual relationship with a male teenager in 2005,” the AP reported.

Do I even have to tell you?


http://www.gunsmagazine.com/digital/G0609.htm?page=58

Evidence Shows MAIG Uses Names Without Permission
Buckeye Firearms Association

As a growing number of mayors in Ohio and around the country resign from Mayors Against Illegal Guns (MAIG), New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg's gun control group, new evidence suggests some of their names have been added to the member list and used to promote Bloomberg's political agenda without their knowledge or permission.

"Mayor Robert Shiner" (Mentor, OH) was listed in a letter from MAIG to Congress in June 2009 opposing reforms to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), as well as in a full page advertisement opposing nationwide reciprocity of concealed handgun licenses.

Mayor Keith Hoffman (East Berlin) said his participation, which began about a month ago, resulted from a misunderstanding of the group's objectives, and he is currently trying to get his name off the list. "It was a mistake really," he said. "They swindle you in and then put your name on the list."

Mayor Dale Strasser (Brunswick, OH) found his name used in MAIG advertising when it was actually the Brunswick city manager, Robert Zienkowski, who signed up for the group.

According to the NRA, at least 28 other mayors have appeared on the MAIG membership list despite the fact they were not mayors of the localities as advertised:

Matthew J. Avara - Pascagoula, Mississippi
Jean M. Benson - Palm Desert, California
Cary Bozeman - Bremerton, Washington
Jim Brown - Lockland, Ohio
Joseph J. Cisco, Jr. - Ellwood City, Pennsylvania
James C. DiNardo - Hazlet, New Jersey
Joseph V. Doria, Jr. - Bayonne, New Jersey
John Glanzer - Newberry, Florida
Andrew G. Humphrey - Wayzata, Minnesota
Richard H. Hyde - Waukegan, Illinois
Jack Killion - Pennsauken, New Jersey
Joseph S. Kroll - Haverhill, Florida
Eugene Kulick - Little Falls, New Jersey
Raymond F. Marin - North Miami Beach, Florida
Bruce Malcolm - Fernandina Beach, Florida
Lorraine H. Morton - Evanston, Illinois
Rita L. Mullins - Palatine, Illinois
Mark Roberts - Douglass, Kansas
Heinz Rodgers - Edwardsville, Kansas
Marc Searl - Hemet, California
Joseph D. Serrano, Sr. - Santa Fe Springs, California
David Shumaker - Bristol, Tennessee
Emilia M. Siciliano - Shrewsbury, New Jersey
David C. Strong - Winter Park, Florida
Gary Van Eyll - Chaska, Minnesota
Bill Welch - State College, Pennsylvania (died)
Carl Wilkes - Merriam, Kansas
William P. "Will" Wynn - Austin, Texas


http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Politics/Evidence-Shows-MAIG-Uses-Names-Without-Permission-09230912.html

Yeah, some reliable source there...NOT.

"Damn. Lose-lose there for the gun militants, I guess."

Uh... :rofl:


By all means, pull up the text of the actual amendment, and we'll discuss it.


Wait, I'll do it for you - heres the text of the ACTUAL amendment:

P.L. 110-161
Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2008 (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
SALARIES AND EXPENSES
For necessary expenses of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, including the purchase of not to exceed 822 vehicles for police-type use, of which 650 shall be for replacement only; not to exceed $40,000 for official reception and representation expenses; for training of State and local law enforcement agencies with or without reimbursement, including training in connection with the training and acquisition of canines for explosives and fire accelerants detection; and for provision of laboratory assistance to State and local law enforcement agencies, with or without reimbursement, $984,097,000, of which not to exceed $1,000,000 shall be available for the payment of attorneys' fees as provided by section 924(d)(2) of title 18, United States Code; and of which $10,000,000 shall remain available until expended: Provided, That no funds appropriated herein shall be available for salaries or administrative expenses in connection with consolidating or centralizing, within the Department of Justice, the records, or any portion thereof, of acquisition and disposition of firearms maintained by Federal firearms licensees: Provided further, That no funds appropriated herein shall be used to pay administrative expenses or the compensation of any officer or employee of the United States to implement an amendment or amendments to 27 CFR 178.118 or to change the definition of `Curios or relics' in 27 CFR 178.11 or remove any item from ATF Publication 5300.11 as it existed on January 1, 1994: Provided further, That none of the funds appropriated herein shall be available to investigate or act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities under 18 U.S.C. 925(c): Provided further, That such funds shall be available to investigate and act upon applications filed by corporations for relief from Federal firearms disabilities under section 925(c) of title 18, United States Code: Provided further, That no funds made available by this or any other Act may be used to transfer the functions, missions, or activities of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to other agencies or Departments in fiscal year 2008: Provided further, That, beginning in fiscal year 2008 and thereafter, no funds appropriated under this or any other Act may be used to disclose part or all of the contents of the Firearms Trace System database maintained by the National Trace Center of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or any information required to be kept by licensees pursuant to section 923(g) of title 18, United States Code, or required to be reported pursuant to paragraphs (3) and (7) of such section 923(g), except to: (1) a Federal, State, local, tribal, or foreign law enforcement agency, or a Federal, State, or local prosecutor, solely in connection with and for use in a criminal investigation or prosecution; or (2) a Federal agency for a national security or intelligence purpose; and all such data shall be immune from legal process, shall not be subject to subpoena or other discovery, shall be inadmissible in evidence, and shall not be used, relied on, or disclosed in any manner, nor shall testimony or other evidence be permitted based on the data, in a civil action in any State (including the District of Columbia) or Federal court or in an administrative proceeding other than a proceeding commenced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to enforce the provisions of chapter 44 of such title, or a review of such an action or proceeding; except that this proviso shall not be construed to prevent: (A) the disclosure of statistical information concerning total production, importation, and exportation by each licensed importer (as defined in section 921(a)(9) of such title) and licensed manufacturer (as defined in section 921(1)(10) of such title); (B) the sharing or exchange of such information among and between Federal, State, local, or foreign law enforcement agencies, Federal, State, or local prosecutors, and Federal national security, intelligence, or counterterrorism officials; or (C) the publication of annual statistical reports on products regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, including total production, importation, and exportation by each licensed importer (as so defined) and licensed manufacturer (as so defined), or statistical aggregate data regarding firearms traffickers and trafficking channels, or firearms misuse, felons, and trafficking investigations: Provided further, That no funds made available by this or any other Act shall be expended to promulgate or implement any rule requiring a physical inventory of any business licensed under section 923 of title 18, United States Code: Provided further, That no funds under this Act may be used to electronically retrieve information gathered pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4) by name or any personal identification code: Provided further, That no funds authorized or made available under this or any other Act may be used to deny any application for a license under section 923 of title 18, United States Code, or renewal of such a license due to a lack of business activity, provided that the applicant is otherwise eligible to receive such a license, and is eligible to report business income or to claim an income tax deduction for business expenses under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/fy08_tiahrt_text.pdf (Did they really think that no one would read it for themselves?)

Now, which part do you see a problem with?

[iverglas]

13. btw, I love it

I say "not all firearms owners are gun militants", and I get unrecommended.

Can't do right for doing wrong, can I??

It would never be that there were those who wanted to make sure that such a post as this doesn't get noticed outside of our cozy little gang here. Noooooo.

[pipoman]

15. I didn't peg you for an unrec whiner..n/t

[benEzra]

31. If you posted "Not all pro-choicers are abortion militants"

in the Choice forum, and cited a study by Operation Rescue, think you might get unrec'd?

[X_Digger]

20. And yet, millions continue to renew and send them money..

fancy that. You'd think that if they disagreed with the NRA, they, oh, I dunno.. wouldn't send more money to them.

*snort*

[aikoaiko]

21. The question on "all gun sellers" should have been more specific because it comes after

a three questions asking about "Irresponsible gun dealers who break the law by knowingly selling guns to unqualified purchasers should be held accountable to the maximum extent of the law.”.

The questions about the Tiahrt Amendment are also misleading. The Tiahrt Amendment, as I understand it, prevents fishing exercises through data. When police find a gun at a crime scene they can still use the data to trace gun ownership.

Still, there was more support for gun control from NRA members and general public that I would have predicted.

But then again, I haven't met very many "gun militants" or seen them post here at DU. Almost everyone who posts in the DU GUNS forum supports gun control in one way or another.

[spin]

24. K&R (n/t)

[proteus_lives]

25. I don't consider myself a "gun militant"

Whatever that means.

I'm a gun-owner, CCW holder and a RKBA Democrat that supports gun-rights.

There's a comfortable middle ground for people to reach.

I have no problem with the restricting certain-"certain"-types of firearms and restricting the access to felons, mental cases and the underage. But in my opinion that's where it should end.

[SteveM]

30. My "militancy" for 2A is about the same as for 1A, 3A, 4A, 5A, 6A, etc. (nt)

[gorfle]

32. I'm not surprised.

I'm a member of the NRA, and I am also in favor of closing the "gun show loophole".

I am all for requiring background checks for all firearm sales, including private sales, so long as firearm ownership anonymity is preserved.

I very much support a system like the Illinois FOID system, except that it should be opt-out, not opt-in, and the FOID information should be encrypted on your driver's license or state-issued ID.

[Abq_Sarah]

37. Background checks for private sales

Would certainly been a boon for FFL holders.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. The Tiahrt Amendment also prevents the BATFE from allowing the media to access the data.

That the real source of the complaint. Some media organizations want to know the name of everybody who buys a gun and to publish that data as a searchable database. Some are doing that on a state level with CCW holders. But since the media is not law enforcement, then they can't get the list.

That is the real reason for the howling about the Tiahrt Amendment.