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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:27 PM
Original message
Is "Canned Hunting" Good or Bad?
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 07:16 PM by CO Liberal
In that thread that was just locked, I found several links to more information about canned hunts from several different organizations. My question is this: are "canned hunts" a good idea, or a bad one? Discuss. - Wayne

ON EDIT - I realize that these threads all take a negative position on canned hunting. That's all I could find when I did a Google search. If you have a link to info about the other side of canned hunting, please share it.


* * * * *

The Fund for Animals

The closing decades of the twentieth century saw the rise of a new kind of "sport" in North America: the "canned hunt." Although canned hunts advertise under a variety of names -- most frequently "hunting preserves," "game ranches," or "shooting preserves" -- they can be identified by the two traits they all have in common: they charge their clients a fee to kill an animal; and they violate the generally accepted standards of the hunting community, which are based on the concept of "fair chase."

In some cases animals may be shot in cages or within fenced enclosures; in others they may be shot over feeding stations; some of the animals are tame and have little fear of humans, while others may be tied to a stake or drugged before they are shot. But whatever method is used, the defining characteristic of a canned hunt is that the odds have been artificially manipulated against the animal so heavily that the notion of fair chase is subverted. Canned hunts are commercial hunts that take place on private land under circumstances that virtually assure the hunter of success.


http://www.fund.org/cannedhunts/


The Humane Society of the United States

Canned hunting is the killing of an animal in an enclosure to obtain a trophy. The animals are sometimes tame exotic mammals; some, in fact, have been sold by petting zoos to the canned hunting operation. These animals do not know to run from humans. Many groups that support hunting scorn canned hunting for its unsportsmanlike practice; patrons are guaranteed a kill. Several states now ban canned hunting operations, but the practice is spreading.

http://www.hsus.org/ace/12017


United Animal Nations

One canned hunt ranch owner in New York likens killing penned animals for pleasure to a golf outing. "You hunt hard all day, then have a nice lunch." The truth is not so benign, and has created strange bedfellows — animal activists and "fair-chase" hunters — who collectively declare that canned hunting is slaughter.

The gods of compassion must have been sleeping when canned hunting was invented. Animals, especially exotics, are staked, hobbled, caged or fenced to provide targets for hunters. (A "guaranteed kill" of a Cape Buffalo or a Rocky Mountain big horn sheep can be had for $5,000, meat, hide and trophy head thrown in.) One fair-chase hunter characterized it as "shooting fish in a barrel." UAN goes further. Pay-to-kill is brutal and cowardly, pot shots taken at hand-raised animals that have lost their fear of humans and have absolutely no chance. They’re shot, often repeatedly, with gun or bow and arrow; they’re knifed and even speared. Speared? And I thought Neanderthals were extinct!


http://www.uan.org/issues/cannedhunt.html


www.BornFree.org

Canned hunting is, essentially, the hunting of captive animals that have little chance of escape. North America is the hunting capital of the world with 11 million hunters but South Africa has the dubious distinction of hunting the most lions and elephants. Hunters like to draw a distinction between trophy hunting and canned hunting. Trophy hunters claim their prey is free roaming. Canned hunting, which is still widespread in the USA and South Africa involves the hunting of captive-bred animals often into enclosed areas.

http://www.bornfree.org.uk/big.cat/bcatnews013.shtml


Animals In Print

A hunter paid a $275 bounty for the head of a black Hawaiian ram. After a guide drove the ram directly into the path of his client, the hunter shot the trapped animal with an arrow at point-blank range. The wounded ram, with an arrow sticking out of his hindquarters, backed up against the fence that forced him to stay close to his killers. A shot to the head might have meant a quick kill, but would have spoiled the eventual trophy. So the hunter repeatedly took aim at the ram's body, and the animal writhed in pain for four minutes before dying.1 The Fund for Animals' hallmark has been our fight to end atrocious hunts such as the one described above. Perhaps no recent victory has meant more to us than the Texas ban on shooting bears, lions, elephants, rhinoceroses, and other large mammals on fenced-in preserves, which we achieved with the Texas Humane Legislative Network. No bill to restrict hunting of any kind -- no matter how indefensible a hunt -- had ever made its way through the Texas legislature before this historic achievement.

http://www.all-creatures.org/aip/nl-31oct2001-canned.html


ASPCA (American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals)

Governor Pataki Signs Bill Outlawing Most Heinous Forms of "Canned Hunts" in New York

On Monday, July 12th, Governor Pataki signed into law a provision that will keep the worst types of "canned hunt" activities from taking place in New York State.

"Canned hunts" are controlled "hunts" which typically use exotic big game mammals non-indigenous to the area, that have been captively bred and raised by humans. At canned hunt facilities these essentially tame animals are tied, hobbled, caged or fenced so that they cannot escape. These animals are prized for their trophy value. To preserve the head for mounting, the "hunter" may shoot or spear the animal many times in its hindquarters, virtually assuring a prolonged and agonizing death.

This deplorable practice has been outlawed in other states. It has nothing to do with wildlife management or recreational hunting. In fact, ethical sportsmen oppose "canned hunts" precisely because they lack the fundamental elements of ethical hunting – a fair chase and quick kill.


http://www.lobbynet.com/canned/


Alberta Outdoorsmen

The high, heavily wired fence running next to the road indicated I was passing a game ranch, one of several hundred in Alberta. As my car crested a rise I saw a group of animals sunning themselves on top of a bald hill. They were impressive: a six-point bull elk, some elk cows and a couple of four-point buck white-tailed deer. They were all lying down together several hundred metres from anything that remotely looked like cover. I stopped my vehicle to get a better look. As I approached the fence, all eyes watched me, seemingly unconcerned. Finally, one of the bucks arose and walked towards me as if I might have something for it to eat. As I watched him stop and look at me curiously, I asked myself, "What's wrong with this picture?"

My mind raced back to the words of a wildlife officer from Colorado speaking to a meeting of Alberta Fish and Wildlife Officers. "The one message I want to leave with you today," he said near the end of his speech, "is don't allow game ranching in your province!" It was the early 1980s when game ranching was not yet allowed in Alberta, although it was a topic of heated discussion. Ranchers were lobbying the government to permit them to raise domestic elk for the antler velvet trade in Asia.

Colorado had several years of experience with elk ranches and the officer had been invited to the meeting to explain the enforcement problems associated with the business. He warned that allowing game ranching opened a whole "can of worms" of problems that went well beyond enforcement issues to the health and viability of domestic livestock, indigenous wildlife and hunting. Unfortunately, much of what he warned about has come to pass in Alberta.


http://www.donmeredith.ca/Outdoorsmen/CannedHunt.html


Animal Rights Foundation of Florida (ARFF)

There are more than 1,000 hunting ranches across about 25 states in the U.S. that offer opportunities to shoot confined exotic mammals, who have virtually no chance to escape. There are approximately nine canned hunt facilities in Florida that supply mostly exotic species to be shot as trophies. Canned hunts range in size from an acre to more than 10,000 acres. At these facilities, participants shoot tame or habituated animals for a fee, usually in “no kill, no pay” arrangements.

http://www.animalrightsflorida.org/campaigns_hunts.htm


www.cnn.com

Hunting made easy

Shooting captive animals to mount their heads on a wall is a booming sport. Should Congress step in?

By Jeffrey Kluger
With Reporting by Melissa August/Washington, Mike Billips/Austin and Broward Liston/Lake City

March 4, 2002 Posted: 12:32 p.m. EST (1732 GMT)


The exotic corsican ram trotting about the 100-yard-long pen in central Pennsylvania paid little mind to the men approaching across the field. People were always walking in and out of the pen, as often as not with food for the flock. So the ram didn't resist when the men drove all the animals toward one end of the enclosure. It was only when the first arrow--fired from just yards away--struck it in the haunch that it realized something was up. The ram hobbled off and was struck by a second arrow, then a third. It stood for a moment staring beyond the fence line and then settled onto its haunches, bleeding. A gunshot to the abdomen finished it off--preserving its head as a trophy.

It has never been easy being an animal at the business end of a hunt, but these days it's hard being the hunter too. Dwindling ranges and herds make the ancient business of stalking prey an increasingly difficult proposition. The answer for many Americans is to shift their shooting grounds from the wild to one of the country's growing number of hunting preserves.


http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2002/03/11/hunting.html


Editorial in the St. Petersburg Times

'Canned hunt' isn't sportsmanlike

© St. Petersburg Times
published June 17, 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There's nothing sporting about hunters shooting big game in fenced-in hunting preserves. A bill that would severely limit the practice has been introduced in both the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate. The Captive Exotic Animal Protection Act would ban the interstate transport or possession of an exotic animal for the purpose of killing or injuring it. Game ranches across the country charge clients a fee to kill animals (both domestic and exotic) kept within fenced enclosures. It is slaughter without even the thrill of the hunt.

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/06/17/Opinion/_Canned_hunt__isn_t_s.shtml
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is canned hunting the same thing as when German tourists come over
here to a preserve (private property) to hunt deer, etc. and pay for each animal they shoot? I've heard about these "hunting parties" and your post sounded similar.

If not, what's the difference?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:37 PM
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I Don't Believe That the Writer for "Alberta Outsdoorsmen".....
...is "completely ignorant on the topic of hunting." In fact, according to the web site, that column earned the author First Place, Magazine Column from the Outdoor Writers of Canada, and a 2000 National Communications Award. I don't think they give awards like that to people who know nothing about the subject matter.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:45 PM
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm Sorry, Superfly....
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 07:04 PM by CO Liberal
I specifically went out onto Google and tried to find links to as many organizations as I could. True, most of them were what could be categorized as "animal rights" groups, but when I found the link to "Alberta Outdoorsmen", I felt that I had found something that no one could label as "agenda-driven".

I'd like to discuss this sans attacks. I'm willing to try if you are.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:56 PM
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'm Putting No Spin Whatsoever On It
Please take a deep breath and count to ten........
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:05 PM
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Those Quotes.....
...were what I found on Google after searching for "canned hunt". I went through several pages of links, trying to find as many different organizations as possible. The "Alberta Outdoorsmen" link was the only one I could find that was "sportsman"-related.

If you can find someting that presents a pro-canned position, please post it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 09:02 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 10:07 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 10:24 PM
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Quit the personal attacks
both of you two. Don't make me stop this car. :reallymad:

There is a really decent argument here that could be concentrated on if folks would lay off the personal attacks.

DU Mod
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. According to the Info I Found On The Internet.....
canned hunts take place on "hunting preserves," "game ranches," or "shooting preserves." Some operations seem to tax the skills of the hunter, and others don't.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for the PM to see if this is ok
Sometimes starting over helps. Obviously, the last thread wasn't working. This one should remain open if we can keep discussion to the facts about hunting and avoid name-calling and other personal attacks.

Thanks,

DU Mod
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:35 PM
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:36 PM
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4. Bad start
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:38 PM
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. I dont have a problem with them. They are good for the environment
They raise animals and are sure to give them good living conditions, other than getting shot for a few weeks out of the year, and they are fed. Raising animals cant be bad.

Hunting is legal. Sometimes the handicapped or elderly cant get out and hunt like they use to. Hunting preserves are some peoples only chance at success.

As for the exotic animals, as long as they arent endangered i see no problem with it. You are bringing a new species of animal to the US. The world will adapt to the change. One day humans will be gone and the animals we brought over here might take over. I see it as a good thing.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. State-By-State Summary of Canned Hunting Laws
From the National Council of State Legislators Web site: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/esnr/Hunfish.htm

The following states have banned "canned" hunts either in their entirety or in part by limiting the types of animals that can be hunted, by not allowing the conditions that would make a canned hunt profitable (WY), or by not having regulations that allow the appropriate permits (CT). When space permits, the statute is quoted verbatim; a few are summarized.

CA - Fish and Game Code 2124 - Possession, purchase, sale or transfer of wild animals for purpose of injuring or killing the animal for gain, amusement or sport - (a) Except as otherwise authorized by this code or regulations adopted pursuant thereto, including, but limited to, those provisions that authorize raising deer to produce venison for market it is unlawful for any person to possess, transport, import, export, propagate, purchase, sell, or transfer any live mammal listed under Section 2118 for the purposes of maiming, injuring, or killing the mammal for gain, amusement or sport. Except as otherwise authorized by this code or regulations adopted pursuant thereto, the buyer of a live mammal listed in Section 2118 shall not resell the live mammal to another buyer who has the intent to main, injure, or kill that mammal for the purposes of gain, amusement or sport. (b) This section does not apply to the meat, hide, or parts of a dead mammal.

CT - Connecticut does not officially ban canned hunting, but the regulations do not exist that would allow it. Shooting preserves deal only with game birds.

NC - 113-293(e) It is unlawful for any person to: (1) Release or place exotic species of wild animals or wild birds in an area for the purpose of stocking the area for hunting or trapping; (2) Release or place species of wild animals or wild birds not indigenous to that area in an area fore the purpose of stocking the area for hunting or trapping; (3) Take by hunting or trapping any animal or bird released or placed in an area in contravention of subdivisions (1) and (2) of this subsection, except under a permit to hunt or trap which may be issued by the Wildlife Resources Commission for the purpose of eradicating or controlling the population of any species of wildlife that has been so released or placed in the area.

NJ - 23:3-31, also letter from NJ Fish, Game and Wildlife explaining that only game animals can be hunted in NJ, and the only game animals defined are native to the state. Therefore, exotic animals can be owned, but not hunted.

OR - (Wildlife Commission rule - 635-064-010)-(1) It is unlawful to hunt, kill, or attempt to hunt or kill, exotic mammals (as defined in OAR 635, Div. 056) or game mammals (as defined in OAR 635, Div. O45) held or obtained by private parties. However, (a) Any person may slaughter such an animal for meat, leather, or fur production; (b) Any person may euthanize such an animal for scientific, health, safety or other valid husbandry concerns; and (c) The department's wildlife Division Director may authorize any person to hunt or kill such an animal if the Division Director determines it would be in the best interest of sound wildlife management. The Division Director may impose conditions on such authorizations. (Statutory Authority: ORS 496.012, ORS 496.138) Rule adopted 4/23/99

RI - 20-19-2 - Shooting preserves - Statute lists requirements for operating a shooting preserve, e.g., it must be a minimum of 120 contiguous acres. 20-19-3 Use of domestic game birds - Only domestic game birds may be utilized by persons conducting a field trial or operating a shooting preserve subject to the provisions of this chapter.

TX - Parks and Wildlife Code - 62.101 - UNLAWFUL CONTROLLED KILLING OF OR ATTMEPTING TO INJURE DANGEROUS WILD ANIMALS -(1) Captivity means the state of being held under control or kept caged or penned. (2) Dangerous wild animal means a lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, hyena, bear, elephant, wolf, or rhinoceros and includes any species, subspecies, or hybrid of those animals. (3) Lion means African and Asiatic lion. 62.102 Controlled Killing of or Attempting to Injure Dangerous Wild Animals Prohibited, 62.103 Unlawful Controlled Killing; Certain Commercial Activity Prohibited. (Note: Texas does allow canned hunting of exotic (generally - hoofed - animals).

VA - 3.1763.5:1 This legislation allows only those shooting enclosures defined as "any fenced area open commercially to the public where animals are held for the purpose of being shot". that were in existence before January 1, 1995. Being out of compliance with any of the regulations is grounds for revoking the license. According to groups that follow animal issues, the existing shooting enclosures will go out of business and no new ones will be allowed.

WI - 951.09 - Shooting at caged or staked animals - No person may instigate, promote, aid or abet as a principal, agent, employee, participant or spectator, or participate in the earnings from, or intentionally maintain or allow any place to be used for the shooting, killing or wounding with a firearm or any deadly weapon, any animal that is tied, staked out, caged or otherwise intentionally confined in a man-made enclosure, regardless of size. Nothing in this section prohibits the shooting of any wild game in its wild state or the shooting of game birds and waterfowl at licensed game farms or licensed shooting preserves.

WY - 23-1-103 - Ownership of wildlife - For the purposes of this act, all wildlife in Wyoming is the property of the state. It is the purpose of this act and the policy of the state to provide an adequate and flexible system for control, propagation, management, protection and regulation of all Wyoming wildlife. There shall be no private ownership of live animals classified in this act as big or trophy game animals.

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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. And Here's a Discussion Here At DU About Canned Hunting
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Since this is only a carry through with the
thread that Mr B started I have to agree with Ron F that it is really a non issue and a total waste of bandwidth.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I'm Sorry You Feel That Way, Dems
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. Found a Pro Canned Hunting Link
From the New York Farm Bureau:

They discovered that what Ms. Cheever refers to as "small ranched enclosures" are actually parcels of land no smaller than 10 acres (as mandated by state law), and frequently upwards of 400 acres. They also learned that hunters are not simply walking up to passive animals and shooting them, but instead are participating in a fair hunt, as the animals are provided ample land and cover to escape.

Animal rights activists would have people believe that hunters are pursuing animals around a piece of land until the animal is trapped against a fence, at which point the hunter walks up to it and shoots it. Anyone familiar with hunting at all understands not only that this isn’t the case, but to suggest as much simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge regarding the sport.



http://www.nyfb.org/periodic/Grassroots/grass1003/mailbox.htm
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
20. Here's a Web Site for a Game Preserve
Macedonia Game Preserve is carefully maintained to give you an opportunity to hunt green fields, food plots or wooded settings.

Experience the diversity of Macedonia Game Preserve! This diverse habitat makes the preserve an excellent choise for a variety of game. Lush woodlands provide cover. Fence rows and waterways provide a perfect setting for game birds. Macedonia also provides wildlife habitat by planting food plots to entice specific game animals and upland birds. This diversified setting is the perfect combination for whitetail deer, quail, pheasant, chukar, dove and turkey hunting. New for fall 2002, Duck Hunting!

<more>

http://www.macedoniagamepreserve.com/
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. And Another One
That is obviously not a "point-and-shoot" outfit.

Located in Douglas, MA, only 25 miles south of Worcester and 30 miles north of Providence, LadyWoods Game Preserve© encompasses 130 acres of typical New England cover. All birds are reared on the grounds, all are adult and full plumaged. We offer both pheasant and chukar packages. We welcome patrons with their own hunting dogs of any breed or offer use of our pointing dogs to those who may need one. Our guide will accompany you throughout your hunting experience at no extra charge. LadyWoods Game Preserve© is true hunting as there are no back up guns. You will be challenged as a shooter allowing for an enjoyable hunting experience.

<more>

http://www.ladywoods.com/
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. It isn't even hunting...
...in my opinion. I don't hunt but I believe in hunting to control animal populations. To remove the hunt from hunting makes it a slaughter. They ought to just go done to the slaughter house and shoot pigs. It would be quicker and it has to be done anyways.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. A very provocative question...
I have two things to say about that:
1) Canned hunts are reflective of a phenomenon know as Post-Modernism; in other words, the symbolic attachment of a description from the past to a modern version, but which has little or no connection to the original meaning. One needs only to look at the following case:
I was givne an opportunity to participate on a hunt in the Hill Country of Texas in 1998. Since I am a meat hunter, I don't usually turn down hunting invitations, so I went. After placing me in a box stand, the 'guide' drove away, but as he left, his arm came out the truck window and, with a remote control, he turned on an electric feeder about 150 yards away from the stand. Witin 15 minutes, there were White-Tailed deed, Sika deer, Fallow deer, Axis deer, Russian Boar, and Turkeys at the feeder. The larder was empty, so I did shoot the two does that I was allowed, but I will never go back and do anything like that again. For me, this is not hunting. Like many otehrs on this board, I choose to sit in my stand and take my chances; I gave up walking the lease because I don't relish the thought of getting my head blown off by some trigger happy yahoo, who takes 'sound shots'.
2) I have been a hunter for 45 years and find nothing objectionable about hunting. Most of that time, I have been a bird hunter (Quail, Doves mostly), and find that bird hunting is a far more level playing field, in terms of 'fair chance'. Canned hunts exist in bird hunting as well, but even farm raised birds hide well, and can fly with the nest of them; most of them get away. As far as deer hunts, and larger animals are concerned, I object to the idea of baitng the animals. I consider it to be nothing short of murder, rather than hunting. In the traditional sense, hunting should be much more than simply blowing away an animal. It should include respect for the game, and for the art; sadly, an art that has been redefined in the post-modern world.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. Not good for me
I don't think hunters should use ATV's. But it is not up to me to condemn others for "canned hunting." Especially when so many attack any hunting.
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. ATV's are a necessity for some with disabilities
Otherwise, if you're too lazy or out of shape to hunt, don't go.

Avid hunter here. 4 deer this year. I'm eating well!
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. The Biggest Problem With ATVs (and Snowmobiles) .....
...is irresponsible operators. I've read articles in several publications about the damage done to environmentally sensitive areas by people who think they can just plow through anything.

ATVs and snowmobiles (just like guns) are tools. And when a few unthinking individuals misuse them, it makes ALL ATV and snowmobile operators look bad.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Giving credit where its due...
"ATVs and snowmobiles (just like guns) are tools. And when a few unthinking individuals misuse them, it makes ALL ATV and snowmobile operators look bad."-CO Liberal


Haveing been an avid snowmobiler, I know the kind of folks your referring to, Co, and you are right. The non thinking irresponsible portion of any "user" group does in fact make all users in that group look bad.

Well put, CO. :toast:
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. I did generalize,
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 11:31 PM by MrSandman
but after having walked for 45 minutes in freezing cold on my property, finding a trespasser propped up on his ATV, I became soured to them. No matter how much signage, fences, barriers that are put up, they continue to trespass. Yes, when I am no longer able to walk, it will be a welcome mode of transport to hunt.
So many slob hunters, children on paved roads, and vandals having used them I have an antipathy toward ATVs. I did not mean to imply that the choice should be denied to others. Or that the antipathy extended to users as a group.


edited to add last sent--s
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
26. Looks like there's not much that can be said FOR canned hunting
doesn't it?

"The Fund for Animals estimates that since 1980 nearly 2000 hunting preserves have opened, with 500 in Texas alone. These hunts are conducted on private land stocked with exotic animals, such as zebras, antelope, rams, and even the occasional lion. Hunters pay thousands of dollars to spend a few days tracking and killing these animals, and most ranches guarantee hunters will not go home empty handed. To further favor hunters, most canned hunt ranches either fence animals into small areas or train animals to eat from the same spot each day, according to the Fund for Animals' report "Canned Hunts: Unfair at Any Price".
While these canned hunts have become increasingly popular, they have also become more controversial. Nine states, including California, have outlawed canned hunts, and many animal rights organizations have campaigned to end the practice. Because many animals in the hunts come from zoos and circuses, they are not afraid of hunters, making the animals easy prey. "

http://www.acfnewsource.org/environment/canned_kill.html


I'm still fairly disgusted that anybody would try to justify Bwana Cheney's crapass great white hunter act...
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Sabot120 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Well, I come from a long line of gun collectors and....
Shooters but I can't for the life of me understand this practice.

I CAN understand a guy hunting Deer and Elk in the coast range here in western Oregon where I live but the idea of someone taking ANY kind of enjoyment out of shooting what is in effect a penned animal is beyond me (?)

It might just be 'cuase We're "Black-Gun" folk and don't really DO the whole huntin' thing anyway but it just seems a little too easy to me.

I guess it's in line with the fact that we don't sell (My family) "Varmit" rifles. I've killed my fair share of 'yotes but I (WE) do it to keep the bastards from killin' stock. The guys we see at the shows that esentially want an excuse to drive out to bumbfuck egypt and kill SOMETHING (Anything) strike me as geeks in the least and dangerously underdeveloped adults at the worst.

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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. I Tried to Find Sites That Were In Favor of Canned Hunting....
...but all I could find were sites for a couple of game preserves. I'll keep looking when I get the chance - right now, I've got an online class to attend.

Ta-ta...
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
31. Canned hunting
This is terrible, it's shooting tame animals and calling it sport. If you aren't in the woods, freezing your keester off huddled over a thermos and a can of cold vienna sausages stalking or waiting for game, it's not a hunt. Period.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. "huddled over a thermos and a can of cold vienna sausages"
That line takes me back to my Boy Scout days......

:-)
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. Lol
"That line takes me back to my Boy Scout days......"

Yeah, before politics, when life was simple, seen through the eyes of a child, just learning how to cook sufficient quantitys of food for others, hiking 'till we hurt, hopeing the tent didn't come down in the rain, and learning to "leave no trace" once we were ready to pack up.

Those were fun times for me as well. Even if they didn't seem fun at the time, sometimes.

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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
39. for the record I am against canned hunts
never done it and I don't believe in it

I think if we got rid of all cattle ranching in this country and let the land be free for wildlife to flourish we would be alot better off

wild game is much better than fat laden grain fed captive animals anyway

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Emoto Donating Member (914 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
40. This is new to me
I appreciate your seeking out various bits of info on both (are there only two?) sides of this. I want to ask some of the hunters that I know about this and get their take on it, before I form an opinion. The hunters I that know personally (bow, gun, black powder muzzleloader) have great respect for the rules and laws and for the animals themselves and I know them to be good people, so I will be interested to hear what they have to say about this. I will try to report back on what I learn.

I am always wary about taking any position that restricts the actions of another person. For all I know (and I am just freewheeling here) the very term "canned hunting" was coined for use by the opposition to such practices, much like the term "partial birth abortion", so any search on that term might well be expected to product only or mostly negative reports.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. I Thought of That, Emoto
That's why I changed the search to "game preserve", which led me to the last two sites I linked to.

If we can all hold off on the attacks, this might be an opportunity for all of us to learn something about a subject that apparantly doesn't get much publicity. (The only way I found out about it was that a few months ago, an elk escaped from one of these places outside Penrose, CO - a family hit it with their SUV, landing the mother in a coma for a few weeks.)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. The way I found about them
was that the largest one in NJ, which turned out to be in my backyard, had to be shut down because it had imported disease-ridden deer from some other state (Michigan?) according to a story in my tiny local paper.

I became curious why anyone would be importing deer to a state that supposedly has such a serious problem with deer overpopulation (the official line is that hunting is the ONLY solution)....and found that the farm was a game preserve for hunters that had been used for a big chunk of the hunting in my area. Some swell solution, eh?

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