Deer continue their attack on helpless drivers

[Township75]

Auto-deer collisions up 22% in 10 years, PennDOT says

Tuesday, December 09, 2003

By The Associated Press

HARRISBURG -- The number of automobile accidents in which cars have been significantly damaged in crashes with deer has risen nearly 22 percent over a 10-year period, according to the state Department of Transportation.

SNIP

The number of human fatalities from such crashes has also increased in recent years, according to the department. Last year, a dozen people were killed, compared with nine in 2001, and there were two to four deer-vehicle deaths annually in the late 1990s.

SNIP

Nationwide, the insurance industry paid about $1 billion in deer-related claims involving an estimated 480,000 collisions last year.

Full story is here:
http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20031209deerwrecks1209p5.asp

The solution is clear, we need everyone on the J/PS forum to pick up a rifle or shotgun and fight the good fight. Good fight, good time, and gooooood eatin!

[Superfly]

1. According to some here in DU,

our tax dollars would be better spent implementing a sterilization program where we dump millions into tracking, capturing and then cutting the nuts off deer.

[MrBenchley]

2. Or birth control...

Of course, it's wonderful to have hunters farming disease-ridden deer while they're pretending overpopulation is the rationale for hunnting....

[Superfly]

3. Like sterilization or birth control is going to cure a deer.

Keep dreaming.

[MrBenchley]

4. Oh, right....

Nothing must interfere with the sacred right of asswipes to shoot holes in animals for funn.....

[Superfly]

5. So, instead, you condone the mutilation of deer

I know where your priorities are...

[MrBenchley]

7. No, I condone

birth control and real deer population control...not phony "sport"...

[Superfly]

8. To each his own...

me, I'd rather see some family enjoy the bounty of nature than conduct a sterilization science experiment on a population.

[Emoto]

10. Please give us the details

Clearly you recognise that there is a problem with deer overpopulation in NJ, and that this problem has even caused the deaths of innocent people in some of the many car accidents that the many deer cause.

So, can you sketch out the details for us of how you would go about relieving this problem, and include your best guess as to the cost of your proposal and where that money would come from, so we can really understand what you're talking about? I'm not looking for a link here, I want your own thoughts, since you seem to have a strong opinion.

Oh, you might want to know that hunting licenses, which are in part issued to help control the deer proiblem, result in a positive cashflow that is typically (I do not know how NJ uses their fees specifically) used to maintain state parks, forests, and conservation lands...

[Township75]

12. Would real deer population control include...

mowing em all down with an 18 wheeler? Because if it is Bench, that is going to be messy.

[TexasMexican]

44. ¿wtf?

Whats "real" deer population control?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

9. Gee, moto...

Are you still pretending it's 1776? The rationale for hunting went away long ago...

"To label all hunters as "asswipes" is " no diffeent than labeling anyone who discusses gun control as a "grabber."

"I wish you would grow up."
You first, moto....

[Emoto]

11. eh?

The rationale for hunting went away long ago...

How do you figure? Now, more than ever, we need to actively manage various wildlife populations to assure their survival. Also, many people in this country still hunt to put food on the table, some because they are poor (this may be an alien thought to you, but I assure you that a lot of people really are that poor), and some because they prefer food that has not been adulterated with various drugs and hormones and fattening feeds that leave the meat riddled with fat. Game meat is incredibly lean.

About growing up: You will note that in the vast majority of my posts, I do not resort to name-calling, instead trying to use logical argument. Can you say the same?

[MrBenchley]

13. Hahahahahaha...

"Now, more than ever, we need to actively manage various wildlife populations to assure their survival. "
Whicch is why the huntinng interrests are farming deer....

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RossMcLochNess]

16. To the anti-hunters, please check this out...

http://pa.audubon.org/Deerfactsheetrev1.htm

Check out the "Deer Fact Sheet" that's put out by the Pennsylvania Audubon Society. Read through it and you'll see that the hunting of deer is necessary. Regardless of anyone's feelings towards hunting, the simple fact remains that hunting certain animals is, in fact, necessary. I was going to compile a list of Pros and Cons but I'm currently unable to think of any Cons in relation to the hunting of deer here in Pennsylvania. Here's my list...

1. Its much more humane to shoot a deer and have it die immediately or within minutes rather than have it die of starvation over a period of days and weeks because of a lack of adequate food. As the population increases, the problem of starvation worsens as it has for the past 10-15 years.

2. The idea that people who hunt are hillbillies who do it strictly for sport is completely uneducated. Take the time to find out about the subject before passing judgement. Many hunters use the meat to feed their families. Here in NW Pennsylvania, there are also many hunters who donate extra meat that they can't use to local soup kitchens. I know of NO ONE nor have I EVER heard of anyone who shot a deer, took it home and left the carcass to rot in their yard. If you're not going to use the meat or give it away, why would anyone go through the hassle of hunting?

3. Deer are having an adverse impact on the ecosystem. Various species of plants and trees are being elimanated from the forest because they are a natural food source for the deer. If the deer population were smaller, entire flora species wouldn't be able to be eradicated by deer.

4. As the population contines to grow, it IS becoming a threat to motorists. People who live in the city probably don't have a concept of this but out here in rural PA, its easier to find someone who has hit a deer with their vehicle than it is to find someone who never has.

5. Here in Pennsylvania, hunting licenses generate a tremendous amount of revenue. In 1919, the state started using license revenue to purchase land from private individuals to be used as State Game Lands for preservation and protection. This practice continues today. License Revenue is used to preserve and care for these State Game Lands. It is also used to provide law enforcement and to fund various wildlife programs and studies. If you were to eliminate hunting in Pennsylvania and attempted to manage the deer population through "birth control" or other means, the economic impact would be staggering. Not only would it be finanically irresponsible to fund programs like this (hunting solves the population problem and creates revenue) but then the state would be forced to either find other sources of revenue (our taxes are high enough already)or be forced to cut conservation programs out entirely.

While I appreciate that there are people who are anti-hunting, I would invite them to take the time to learn about it as opposed to blindly hating it in principle. If someone has valid points as to why hunting should be outlawed, I'm all ears.

[MrBenchley]

26. This "If only they knew" tack

is fun....you'll notice that most of the opposition to options like "employing trained sharp-shooters" or birth control is coming from the pro-hunting side....which by the by is farming deer on the sly while playing the overpopulation card...

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RossMcLochNess]

32. Ummm, I don't think so...

I've never heard of a hunter that has a problem with using trained sharp-shooters to thin the herd around heavily populated areas. The opposition to this is from the anti-hunters such as yourself not hunters. I, for one, would be in favor of employing sharp shooters in heavily populated areas. But that's it, only in that case. In terms of everywhere else, why pay someone to do a job when you have people who want to pay you to do the job? So no, in general, hunters aren't opposed to this, anti-gun people are opposed.

As for birth control, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Anyone with some amount of knowledge on the subject would be opposed because its a whimsical idea. Whomever originally came up with that idea is completely ignorant of wildlife and obviously knows not what they're talking about. We're not talking about dogs and cats that you can take to the vet. We're talking about wild animals here. If you or anyone else have examples to show me where this has worked somewhere else, I'd be overjoyed to hear them. Perhaps you could even change my mind. In my last message, I politely asked you or someone else to give me reasons why we shouldn't be hunting but since no one could answer that question and chose to ignore it, I'm not expecting replies to this one either.

Lastly, where exactly are these people farming deer on the sly? I bet they're farming deer "on the sly" in the same place that Saddam is hiding his WMDs. But that's just my guess.

[MrBenchley]

35. Certainly in New Jersey

the major opposition to this plan and the birth control plan came from the pro-hunting side.

"In my last message, I politely asked you or someone else to give me reasons why we shouldn't be hunting"
Geeze, apart from the basic concept that it's shameful to get fun from killing living things for no other reason THAN fun? You might look at the post earlier today, where some pro-hunting bibblers were chortling over what a "success" a deer hunting season that only killed one hunter was....one wonders how many would have to die, exactly, to make it seem like any sort of bloody shambles.

"Lastly, where exactly are these people farming deer on the sly? I bet they're farming deer "on the sly" in the same place that Saddam is hiding his WMDs."
Jeeze, Bill O'Reilly would be having on-air orgasms if Saddam's WMDS were as real as the deer farms...or half as dangerous.

"MADISON, Wis. - The state Agriculture Department on Thursday quarantined three more deer farms in its investigation of chronic wasting disease.
All have connections to a Portage County hunting preserve where the first case of the disease in the state's captive deer herd was discovered more than a year ago, state Veterinarian Robert Ehlenfeldt said.
There are now 16 farm-raised deer herds under quarantine related to the fatal brain disease, he said."

http://www.gazetteextra.com/gundeer111403.asp

"The emergence of chronic wasting disease on a Wisconsin deer farm may prompt some of the state's nearly 600 white-tailed deer farmers to get out of the business, officials said Saturday.
"It's not a good situation," said Gary Nelson, president of Whitetails of Wisconsin, an organization representing 213 deer farms.
Last week, state officials quarantined three white-tailed deer farms after a buck shot on a game preserve tested positive for the disease. In addition to the Portage County farm where the buck was killed, quarantines were ordered for the Walworth County farm where the animal came from and for a Marathon County farm where four apparently unhealthy deer were found and which also received animals from the Portage County farm.
Deer are shipped to improve the genetics of the animals, including breeding bucks with more impressive antlers.
In captive hunts, farms typically charge between $2,500 and $3,000 for a buck, although a few animals have brought fees of up to $20,000, Nelson said."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/sep02/81860.asp

[RossMcLochNess]

40. You're missing the point...

I, and I believe the other hunters here, am talking about hunting deer in the wild. What we do is not "shameful" in the least. We're not "killing living things for no other reason THAN fun". To suppose that we are is entirely wrong and goes against everything that I've been posting. Go back and reread my posts. Hunters in the wild are helping the ecosystem and the deer population in general. When I kill a deer, yes, I'm doing a disservice to that particular deer but I'm benefiting the rest of the deer population. I eat what I kill. Nothing goes to waste. I feed my family with it. I'm not doing it for "sport" and neither are the vast majority of the nation's hunters. Its an incorrect assumption. Only a tiny portion of the overall hunters hunt on game farms. To use game farms as a reason that no one should hunt anywhere, any time is like comparing apples and oranges. Its two different things entirely. Hunting natural deer populations has no negative impact on the ecosystem. It actually helps the ecosystem. Hunting captive deer populations has no impact whatsoever. Its something totally different. We're not arguing the validity of game farms here. Personally, I think that game farms are pretty pointless myself but that's not what these posts are about. Its about the FACT that the "wild" deer population (farmed animals are never included in the count) is at least twice the size that it was nearly 100 years ago and much larger in some places. There is no danger of extinction here. None whatsoever. Hunting is a necessary part of conservation, plain and simple.

And yes, hunting like many other things (driving, swimming, rock climbing, etc.) can be dangerous. Its a shame that one person wherever they were talking about died but by all counts, that is a very low number. Around here, typically 1 person per county, per season dies in a hunting accident. Considering the numbers of hunters, you could call that a "success". Personally, I'd chose a different word to describe it. But I'm sure their point was that it could have been worse, alot worse. When you head out into the woods, there are no guarantees that you'll be safe, that's just the way it is. It comes with the territory. If I want to take that risk, that's my decision. It shouldn't be any one else's choice other than my own whether or not to take that risk.

[MrBenchley]

42. So in other words...

even though hunting interests are farming deer (and thus adding to the overpopulation) we're supposed to avert our eyes and swallow the childish pap hunters put out?

"the "wild" deer population (farmed animals are never included in the count)"
No shit, sherlock...if they were included in the count, perhaps more people would wonder why an animal that's supposed to be overpopulated in the wild was being farmed by hunters...since the sole rationale for this idiotic "sport" is to reduce that overpopulation.

"We're not "killing living things for no other reason THAN fun". "
Yeah, surrrre....it's a service to the deer. Geeze, one would have to be a deer to be dumb enough to buy that argument....and not a full-grown one either.

"But I'm sure their point was that it could have been worse, alot worse."
Yeah, I know we're all sure of that too...just look at the posts that followed and all that concern expressed for the dead guy.

[RossMcLochNess]

43. Huh?

"even though hunting interests are farming deer (and thus adding to the overpopulation)" - How the hell do farm raised deer add to overpopulation? They're on a FARM, hence the term farm raised. How exactly are they adding to the overpopulation? They have absolutely nothing to do with the wild population. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Its one thing to be against something but don't make things up just to try and prove a point.

"supposed to be overpopulated in the wild" - So they're not? The wildlife experts are wrong? How did you find the time to personally go out nationwide and count every deer in America? That's a remarkable feat. Sarcasm off. You mean to tell me that EVERY SINGLE state agency that talks about deer overpopulation is incorrect? Its all a myth? So, the deer that starve and die are committing suicide because they want to starve to death, right? It couldn't be that there are not enough food sources to accomodate the growing number of wild deer.

To attack my credibility and say that I'm lying about not hunting for sport says a hell of alot more about you than it does for me. I've noticed that in a couple of your posts, you resort to personal attacks when you run out of facts to support your argument. If that makes you feel good and if you think it makes people believe your side, go for it. You just keep on keeping on.

[Superfly]

45. Get used to it...

"make things up just to try and prove a point." is a common anti modus operandi.

"I've noticed that in a couple of your posts, you resort to personal attacks when you run out of facts to support your argument." this is their stock and trade and what they do best.

[MrBenchley]

48. Don't worry fly...

If I made anything up I'll just edit the post....

[Superfly]

49. Zing! My, you are quick on the trigger...

Can't get anything by you.

[CO Liberal]

51. And Deny It Ever Existed......

:-)

[MrBenchley]

46. Who are you kidding?

Are you trying to tell us that farmed deer AREN'T deer? I know hunters don't want them counted for their own dishonest reasons...but they ARE deer.

It's pretty dishonest to piss and moan about there being too many deer around when you're breeding them on the sly. And it's pretty damn dishonest to announce that the ONLY way to reduce overpopulation in the wild is hunting, while "sportsmen" are pissing away $2000 to hunt captive deer in a pen.

[Superfly]

50. PeTA talking points

Is your name Ingrid Newkirk by any chance?

[LARED]

41. Do you make this stuff up?

most of the opposition to options like "employing trained sharp-shooters" or birth control is coming from the pro-hunting side.

What are you talking about? And as far as I know pro-hunting folks as a general rule have nothing against using sharp shooters to control population. There are zero successful sterilzation programs that I'm aware of.

[LARED]

18. Farmed deer are creating a problem

for automobiles? Who knew. Tell me more MrBenchly.

Also please tell about any successful deer sterilization programs.

[Superfly]

21. What in the hell is a farmed deer?

Is that a new supercrop or something?

[LARED]

24. Not really sure

The only thing I've been told is they are disease ridden, kept in small areas so asswipe hunters can shoot them real easy, and are now somehow escaping from the 'farm' to kill drivers.

Perhaps there's a deer farming expert on this board that could enlighten us.

[MrSandman]

54. Unfettered deer populations:

http://websites.aero.net/cyoung/research/kaibab/story1.html

http://websites.aero.net/cyoung/research/kaibab/story2.html

http://websites.aero.net/cyoung/research/kaibab/story3.html




"The evidence, Caughley suggested, was found wanting and the textbooks were just plain wrong in stating that predator control alone had caused the Kaibab irruption. He concluded that predators had a relatively minor influence on the deer population. More significant were variations in habitat caused by factors including climate, livestock grazing, and changing federal and state wildlife policies (Caughley, 1970)."

N.B.: Multiple links to a continued article.

[alwynsw]

15. Fly, are you insane?

Don't you realize that by neutering the alpha buck in a herd that the population will magically diminish? Nuetering him will in no way lower his Bambi testosterone levels. You know, that stuff that makes him prove through combat that he's still "king of the hill" to the lesser males, which means that all attempts at breeding will still be performed by him, resulting in fewer little Bambis roaming about. We all know that once a buck has achieved primacy in his herd, it is never again challenged by the up and comers.

It's obvious to me that by simply neutering the alpha bucks that this deer overpopulation issue can be resolved. What a wonderful plan!

Gee, now I can stay home and watch Charmed reruns on TBS in November instead of freezing my ass of in a stand. Let's nut the bucks and relax in November.

Sarcasm off.

For those of you who are too dim to understand: does will breed with any acceptable male - read the best male available that is capable of reproduction. Without testes, the proper pheremones are not exuded by males, therefore rendering them unattractive as breeding partners to females. Forget the fact that without the hormones produced by the testes that the males will have no interest in breeding.

In short we can neuter all we want, but unless we neuter them all, thereby causing extinction of the species, there will ALWAYS be at least one or two males that still can perform an will impregnate every doe that they can.

Let's go out and neuter the alphas, which are genetically the best according to nature's laws, so we can have a large crop of inferior deer.

There ya go, fly. What you ststed so well in 20 words or less dragged out into a ramble.

[Superfly]

17. Crazy....like a FOX!

(Props to Homer Simpson for that line)

[LARED]

19. Well if that 's not going to work

then all the does should be sterilized. Just round them up with a few grunts and get them fixed on the spot.

See problem solved.

[Superfly]

20. While you're rounding them all up...

can I have a couple? My freezer is getting empty.

[alwynsw]

22. I got 4 this year. I'll share!

neener neener neener!

[Superfly]

25. I guess my "asswipe lunatic" techniques

aren't working too well.

[alwynsw]

27. Wanna try my asswipe lunatic techniques?

[Township75]

29. What state do you hunt in?

I am also curious if your techniques are more asswipey, more lunaticey, or both when compared to mine.

[alwynsw]

31. I hunt mostly in Kentucky

So we go for the inbred deer - you know - the ones driving beat up pickup trucks with PBR cans in the back. If they're out staggering around, the squinty eyes and low foreheads give them away.

I just put in a Merle Haggard CD and play it REALLY LOUD and in 15 minutes, the older bucks are all hanging out at the saltblock crying about their lost does. Makes for really easy shots.

What, you don't have a CD player and TV in your tree stand to go with your LaZBoy recliner?? I'm adding a hotplate and minibar next year.

[Township75]

33. I don't hunt in a tree stand...

largely because I couldn't fit the jacuzzi up there with all the bikini super models...now THAT will get you deer, son!

[RossMcLochNess]

34. Don't know about deer...

but it would definately get you some "tail" }(

[alwynsw]

37. I got a jacuzzi in my tree stand

it's a Kentucky model - #10 washtub. Drink enough beer and it gets filled up pretty quick. Eat a few pickled eggs with the beer and ya get the bubbles. I had a model up there with me, but her tooth was hurting, so she went to the barber to get it pulled. Now I get gummies.

[LARED]

23. Sure no problem

But first I've got to fill up mine. Between my schedule and the weather, I've only got about 8 hours of stand time with nothing to show for it.

[Good Fences]

52. Condom Distribution Now.

n/t

[Superfly]

36. Nevermind

nt

[alwynsw]

38. It "Others", too!

Rotflmfao

[Superfly]

39. Wink wink nudge nudge

LOL

[Emoto]

47. was one of my messages deleted????

Was #6 from me? Does anyone have it, and if so can you please send it to me? I don't really recall what I said in it, and would like to see it and try to figure out what a mod(?) didn't think was ok. If a mod happens to see this, I would appreciate the courtesy of specific feedback, as just having something go away without explantion doesn't help to prevent the same thing happening again.

Thanks, folks!

[Wickerman]

53. Yes

On edit - telling someone to grow up is a personal attack. TOday was a stellar day for personal attacks and I deleted liberally from all offenders. This one was yours.

I don't have a copy of it handy, but could, tomorrow, if it is important to you produce it. I don't recall the specific of your post, but I know there was an alert on it and I agreed with the complaint.

FYI - Mods are not obligated to provide a PM explanation for deletions. We have the option of doing so. I chose not to in this case since there was much activity in this thread.

In the future, if you have a question of the mods please either PM one of us or post your question in ATA.

And now, back to regularly scheduled discussion...

Lunabush