Would you carry a gun to a poker game?

[GreenStormCloud]

Forget about all the fuss about bars and such for awhile. Let's look at something different. Let us stipulate that your friend has been invited to a poker game, played at a lodge or country club or section of a restaurant, or place like that. The game will be for cash. Texas hold'em, 1-2-no limit, $200 Max buy-in. The hands will be dealt by professional poker dealers, just like in a casino.

There are three poker tables there, and it is expected that each will have a game going. So there will be over $6K in the cashier's drawer, plus back-up money that the players may have on them. Expect there to be over $20K in the room.

For those not familiar, cash poker games are often the target of armed robberies.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the person you are advising has a valid CCW, and is a highly skilled poker player. All highly skilled players have even temperaments - it is part of being highly skilled.

What advise would you give?

[LiberalFighter]

1. Personally. I would not play under those circumstances.

And would advise the friend the same with or without a weapon.

[GreenStormCloud]

3. Why not? The dealers are professionals. N/T

[LiberalFighter]

6. Because it is played at a lodge or country club or section of a restaurant, or place like that.

They would not have the same level of security as that of a professional game.

[GreenStormCloud]

8. Good answer. N/T

[one-eyed fat man]

47. one reason they get robbed

is that they are illegal games. Just like a drug dealer robbing another drug dealer, who you do you call to report your illegal activity has just been victimized by another illegal activity.

Doubtless there are folks at those games who are armed, CCW or no. Those high stake games are semi-open secrets in many places and like dog fights, cock fights, or live pigeon shooting the person providing the venue takes a portion of the proceeds. Very often the enterprise flourishes and has either the collusion, acquiescence, or contributes to the campaigns of the folks who are looking the other way.

We ain't talking penny-ante Saturday night amongst friends, and you know it.

[GreenStormCloud]

48. That is true. There are lots of underground games in Dallas.

Some of them even have web sites.

[one-eyed fat man]

49. Just like Chicago, 1929

Drinking in a speakeasy put money in Al Capone's pocket. If you don't think those games aren't putting money into organized crime, pockets of crooked cops, etc you are only fooling yourself.

[GreenStormCloud]

52. They are. Recently, three games in Dallas were raided.

In 2008 there were some robberies of games. Also poker players have been attacked in the parking lots.

http://pokerati.com/2008/04/11/breaking-news-dallas-poker-bandits-strike-again/

http://pokerati.com/2008/04/13/re-re-dallas-poker-bandits-strike-again-guns-and-poker-pose-difficult-decisions-for-players/

Guns and Poker Pose Difficult Decisions for Players

There’s talk in the comments down below about poppin’ caps in the poker bandits. It’s a shame when your decisions about where to play factor an EV calculated as Expected Violence. (Fortunately most poker players I know are a bit too lazy to hunt down bad guys and show ‘em who’s boss with a barrel, and the CHL holders steer clear of premeditated homicide — no matter how justifiable — for fear of losing their license.)

But still … guns were in play in last night’s robbery. Not just on the thugs who obviously come in not wanting to shoot anyone, but also on a player or three … At least one guy last night had a (legal) gun on him when being robbed. Afterwards, some apparently questioned his decision not to use it. The rub is that had he fired as robbers were kicking their way in through the wall, the ski-masked duo woulda turned right around and skeedaddled. True enough, but as liberal as Texas is when it comes to shooting people messin’ with your property, the nature of the venue might negate that defense. And what if it was the police?!? Yeow, shooting blindly at what may or may not be a SWAT team can never be good for a game. Hmm, Class C misdemeanor or Death Penalty … decisions decisions.

Clearly a good fold. In general I’d prefer loaded weapons to be in the hands of a rock more than a maniac.

Note for non-poker players. "Rock" and "Maniac" are poker slang terms. A rock is a person who is careful, folds frequently, and only plays good hands. A "Maniac" plays every hand and raises frequently, often on every hand. Usually a rock makes money and a maniac loses his money.

[gateley]

2. Only if I was Bret Maverick. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

5. Last night I watched James Garner in the old movie "Support Your Local Sheriff".

I loved it.

[gateley]

10. I love that movie too! nt

[GreenStormCloud]

12. The double entendres were hilarious, subtle, and not forced.

Mayor: She's the richest girl in town. Has her own gold mine.
Sheriff: So who ever marries her gets the gold mine?
Mayor: Including the shaft.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

4. Why not. How else are ya gonna shoot Hornswogglin' cheaters?

Seriously, I would prefer armed guards at the door. Not some cowboy reaching for his weapon when two guys have the drop on the whole table.

[GreenStormCloud]

7. Game security is a huge factor in where I choose to play.

BTW - In the actual Old West, professionals didn't call out a cheater if they suspected someone. They just quitely quit the game and remembered the cheater and never played at a table with him again. A poker pot wasn't worth getting into a shoot-out.

[paulsby]

20. ah, the cowboy canard

didn't take long

[Hassin Bin Sober]

30. Oh go un-knot your panties.

[paulsby]

36. another immature response

with tinges of sexism.

you only demean youself

[tburnsten]

28. The West during the 19th Century was a much more civil place

than the East, which was truly wild. With a few exceptions crime rates were extremely low.

[slackmaster]

9. I wouldn't allow the fact that I was attending a poker game affect my decision

Would I carry one to a tea party?

Maybe. It depends on the circumstances.

[Tim01]

11. Carry a gun, or don't carry a gun. But don't sometimes carry a gun. nt

[TheWraith]

17. What's that supposed to mean?

I don't own a pistol, but if I did I'd be selecting when to carry it and when not to. I'd probably carry it in the woods, or through big cities, or when I was on long trips. But I'm not going to carry it when I'm hanging out with my friend babysitting her preteen cousins, or driving down to the store for dinner ingredients, or on a romantic weekend with my girlfriend, because I'm confident I don't need it at those times. That doesn't make it less effective at the times when I think I might.

[Tim01]

23. "because I'm confident I don't need it at those times."

Then you probably shouldn't have a handgun for self defense. It should be treated like fire insurance.

Or are you just messing with me for fun?

[TheWraith]

39. Again, I *don't* own a handgun.

If I did, I'd view it as a piece of preparedness equipment like any other. I don't take a tire iron out into the woods with me. I certainly don't take a loaded firearm into another person's home, around their children. That's a different matter than, say, having it with me while walking around a city. To say that not having it with me 24/7 is equivalent to not having it at all is, in my view, silly.

[GreenStormCloud]

31. I pretty much carry all the time.

In the situation above, I would quietly talk to the person managing the event, and ask him. Since it is his game, I would respect his wishes. But I would want him to provide excellent security, to include the parking lot.

Most Dallas games are in so called "underground clubs". They are illegal, but the cops wink at them. The dealers are pros who deal only when they are dealing. That means that they don't play in the game if they are dealing. It is fairly easy, if you know what to look for (or listen for), to spot cheating. If you become aware of cheating, QUIETLY QUIT THE GAME. Don't make a fuss. Don't come back.

The parking lots are actually the more dangerous places. Street criminals know that you are carrying a load of cash going in, guesswork on how much cash coming out.

I would check with the club owner and honor his wishes.

I just wish we had legal casinos or legal poker rooms in Texas.

[Old Codger]

13. personally

I carry anywhere it is legal to do so, being armed part time is ludicrous, not paranoid but unwilling to trust others with my safety either.

[rd_kent]

14. I think it depends on the circumstances/

Is this a gathering of people you know? Then maybe not. Is this an open invitation to a bunch of people you have never met before? Then yes.

[taurus145]

15. I'd carry if I went, but I wouldn't go

I get enough cards and dice at work.

I deal as a retirement job.

[aikoaiko]

16. I c arry in such situations although they are mostly smaller house games.

ETA: Everyone has their own risk threshold, but this does not meet my own threshold for not avoiding potential trouble. If this is a legit game, then I would go and go armed. Its important to not live life according the thugs.

[TheWraith]

18. If you're going to a poker game where you think you might need a gun, you shouldn't go there.

Period. If the situation is unsafe enough that you seriously anticipate the possibility of needing a weapon, then it's not worth the danger just for the pleasure of playing poker.

[paulsby]

21. need canard

take 1

[TheWraith]

22. Excuse me? It has nothing to do with need, it has to do with stupidity.

Don't voluntarily walk into a situation that you think is unsafe if you don't have to. I don't go wandering around flashing my expensive cell phone while walking around a bad neighborhood.

[paulsby]

24. i quote your post

"If the situation is unsafe enough that you seriously anticipate the possibility of needing a weapon"

the chance of my NEEDING a weapon at any given time off duty is extremely slim.

the need canard is employed in many forms, but it essentially comes down to the idea that since the statistical probability of one having to use a gun is very very small, that it is illogical to carry.

i could make the analogy to fire insurance on a house.

the need canard ignores the reality of low frequency, high risk encounters.

much like fire insurance is only NEEDED extremely rarely (statistically speaking, very few homeowners ever NEED it), but when it IS needed, the consequences are quite dire. w.o fire insurance, you could lose your entire house and everything in it, with no recompense (and you'd still be liable for the outstanding balance ont he mortgage), and w.o a gun, given the extremely rare chance you might have to use it, without one, you have no reasonable means to defend oneself

need canard

[TheWraith]

44. Life is all about playing the percentages. Poker especially.

The roads here are pretty snowy. If I went down to the store for milk, there's a chance I could get in an accident or slide off the road. It's not a very big chance, so it's not something I worry about. If there were a 50 mile an hour wind blowing and freezing rain coming down, it would be a much higher chance, and I'd be a damn fool to go out.

Are those two situations the same because both contain the same possibility? The odds of me being violently assaulted walking down the street in my hometown is low. In inner city Pittsburgh it's much higher. I would be much more likely to carry a weapon for self defense if I perceive that the odds of needing it are higher.

Just because I don't feel the need to consider those odds at times when they're slim, particularly when carrying a firearm would be socially or ethically inappropriate, doesn't equate to somehow bashing the choice of having one when one chooses to. But I choose not to employ it when I don't think it's appropriate. I'm not going to take a handgun into someone else's house, around their preteen children, without their permission or knowledge. By the standards you're employing, that would make my behavior foolish because violent crime can happen anywhere. But I prefer to exercise discretion as the most important part of protecting myself from dangerous situations. That includes the fact that if I'm not going to walk into a poker game where I seriously anticipate the chance of it being attacked. The desire to play a little poker isn't worth my life.

[PavePusher]

45. I'll bet you use snow tires or equivalent...

to decrease your odds of sliding into the ditch...

I have to wonder why you think the sight of a firearm is so disturbing/damaging to a "preteen child"... (But yes, it would be good manners to ask before entering strictly private property.)

I don't seriously expect to be attacked any particular place, however crime happens everywhere, and my precognition is lousy, so I take basic precautions for my self-defense.

[PavePusher]

26. Crime does not happen only in "bad neighborhoods".

If your precognition is that good, can you please tell me when (and where) I will next be subjected to criminal action? Thanks!

[Endangered Specie]

19. Well, I am not the gambling type, but I see no reason why not if you have a CCW AND...

you DON'T CONSUME ANY ALCOHOL.

Otherwise, you might want to think about how you are going to carry, specifically draw sitting down (alot different than standing up) and, of course, absolute concealment (of course, poker players are good at concealing things I imagine).

I think in general, you will find having a gun on you will have the opposite effect on your temper... it will go down/away. Most people who CCW find themselves alot calmer/politer when packing heat, sense of responsibility.

[Old Codger]

34. Actually

Pretty easy to draw from a shoulder rig when seated

[Wickerman]

25. I'd say if you normally carry, then by all means, if it legal

to carry with CCW, carry.

If you normally don't carry, then don't carry to a poker game. Likewise pretty much any situation. I don't, from all I've read here and otherwise, and discussed with friends who do carry, support part time carry, particularly in emotional situations.

[tburnsten]

27. If that restaraunt, country club, or lodge serves ANY alcohol

than bar rules apply. That's why people support allowing guns in "bars", because there is no legal distinction between businesses that serve alcohol for consumption on premises, so the laws separating guns from drunk hordes anti-carry posters are so fond of also prevent a person with a carry permit from having lunch at a restaraunt that serves beer or wine.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Depends on the state.

There are some where what you just posted is certainly true, but not of Washington, for instance.

[NightRainFalls]

29. Can And Do

I am a professional Gunsmith and a CCW permit holder. I love poker, so do many of my coworkers, friends, customers and boss. We play in some of the abandoned storefronts in our area. We rent them for a night from the owner desperate for some extra scratch. When we go to a game, it is often one of the most heavily armed places in the county. No alcohol, no violence, no problem.

I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to rob poker players, who at least in my experience, are almost always heavily armed. A big chunk of the players are cops. Ironically enough, this is why I have little fear of being convicted of illegal gambling.

Just for the record, there is no house, every player pays his or her share of the rent and food bill, buys in and plays until one person has all the chips. We usually give 20%, 30% and 50% for third through first place. Buy in is fifty bucks, thirty to forty players. That adds up to around two grand in cash. Can't imagine anyone risking that kind of firepower for so little money. Never heard of a poker game getting robbed, at least not in my area.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. I have heard of some that have been robbed.

And I have known some players that have been robbed.

I just wanted to start a discussion that was a bit different that our usual stuff in the gungeon.

[NightRainFalls]

35. And a jolly good job you've done

wasn't contradicting you just saying, I didn't think any game I attended would be robbed

[proteus_lives]

33. Carry it, keep it hidden.

Perhaps a snub-nose in a ankle-holster?

[michreject]

37. I don't make exceptions

I carry where ever I go. Problem is solved. :)

[jeepnstein]

38. No.

My general rule of thumb is if I feel the need to go somewhere strapped and seriously considering a gunfight because of the high likelihood of getting robbed, I reconsider that choice. Life is all about choices. As the Possum sings, "Livin' and dyin' by the choices that we made". No way, no how, do I go out of my way to make myself a robbery target over a card game. Is this game being held in a legal venue?

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Well, I carried last time, nothing bad happened.

Though, our buy-in was considerably less.

[alzoombie]

42. Long life to online and mobile gambling

With me or eighter game security is tight or online casinos, long life to Hera Casino, and holding on the release of their poker rooms platform to start my online player life and never look back.

JeJe

[gorfle]

43. I would not go to a poker game.

I don't gamble.

[PavePusher]

46. Bet you would...

:evilgrin:

[OttavaKarhu]

50. Only as the group's bodyguard.

I hate poker.

[Pavulon]

51. In my state that game would be illegal. Not enforced

but if something did happen the involvement of a firearm in an already illegal activity (unless it was in your house) would be a problem.

[GreenStormCloud]

53. Exactly. N/T

[GreenStormCloud]

54. Thank you all. I have made up my mind.

I shall not go to the poker games. I was severly tempted, because I love to play poker and haven't been to a real game in years. Various posters here have given me much to think about. Here are my reasons for staying away.

The purpose of my Concealed Hangun License is NOT to enable me to go into more dangerous places than I would normally go. My guns are to enable me to protect myself if danger come to me, not for me to seek it out. I attempt to follow a policy of avoidance of hazard if I can. Games do get robbed, but usually a police report is not made. Players get robbed in parking lots, and sometimes are followed and robbed away from the game, if it was noticed that the won a lot.

If I were to use my gun to defend myself, my legal standing would be lessened because I would be at an activity that was illegal. (In Texas, poker is not illegal, but raking the game is.) If I ever have to defend myself, I want my situation to be totally righteous, with no taint whatsoever.

[Euromutt]

55. I'd have loved to weigh in, but I don't gamble

I wouldn't carry to a poker game, because I wouldn't attend a poker game, armed or unarmed. I have enough vices as it is.