Why do "they" say....

[burrfoot]

"Carry always or carry never, don't carry sometimes." ?

All I can figure is that, in theory, if you're always armed you are always going to be more alert/watchful.... but I'm not sure if I buy that.

Being alert to your surroundings, scanning the environment, etc....none of the stuff you should be doing when you carry actually requires that you be armed.
I don't see any reason in the world why one shouldn't carry when they feel like it and not carry when they don't, but I'm willing to have my mind changed if there's a good reason for the saying!


So- thoughts? Anybody's ideas/views would be appreciated!


:toast:

[TheWraith]

1. I don't understand that either. There are times to carry, and times not to.

Disclaimer: I don't own a pistol, so I never carry. But if I did, there would be times I would choose to, like trips into various cities, and times when it would be unnecessary or inappropriate, like hanging out with my friend babysitting her two young cousins. I think that any time that you take human decision making out of the loop, it weakens your ability to respond to the unexpected.

[PavePusher]

3. It's more about consistent behavior and training.

If you carry at all times (when legal), you will (should) behave in consistent patterns. Just like always following the Four Rules of Firearms Handling. As a corollary, If you "always" carry, you are less likely to reach for a firearm that isn't there when you need it.

It's also about humans poor precognition skills: since you never know when violence will be aimed at you, you should have the tools needed to deal with it as often as possible. If I always knew the specific times I would get a flat tire, I would only carry the spare with me at those times, and thus get better gas milage.

[Katya Mullethov]

7. Or simply forget it on the dresser ...........again

Because it isnt a habit , like whatever regime you might have for swapping your change/wallet/pocket knife from one days pants to the next . I stick the Keltec in one pocket and my wallet in the other and ya can't even tell it's there .

[rusty_rebar]

16. and times when it would be unnecessary

or inappropriate, like hanging out with my friend babysitting her two young cousins.

What if that was the time that someone decided to break into the house?

I think the thought process behind this is that you never know. So it is not so much a rule, more an outlook that people have. If someone wants to be protected by such means, then they feel they should do it all the time. If you outlook is different, there is nothing wrong with only carrying when you feel like you might need to. I think the seatbelt and insurance analogies were good ones.

[TheWraith]

39. I don't subscribe to highly unlikely what-if situations.

I could worry about what happened if someone decided to snipe me with a long-range rifle, but I don't, because the odds against it are extremely high. So are the odds of me happening to be unarmed at the exact moment that someone broke into the house where I was standing. I don't think that that slim chance justifies me taking a loaded weapon into someone else's house without their knowledge and having it around their kids.

[dmallind]

2. I think the point is

That there are no "safe" places where it is impossible to ever need a gun.

It is IMPROBABLE everywhere for almost all of us that we will ever need one.

So in effect carrying is an insurance policy against a highly unlikely possibility, but a possibility that could occur at any time in any place.

So if you want to protect yourself against that possibility, and are willing to accept the responsibility for doing so, it is more rational to do so the whole time.

Think of it as analogous to saying you shouldn't cancel your auto insurance when you're only driving a few miles on back roads in nice weather.

Full disclosure. I no longer carry at all (moved to NY where it is largely impossible to legally do so) but when I did it was some of the time, so I am far from a slavish devotee of this maxim - I just think I get what they mean.

[eqfan592]

4. I believe there are several reasons behind this.

One, if you're going to place yourself in a mindset where you're carrying and capable to defend yourself or others should the need arise, it's not very wise to go about without that actual capability, but still with the mindset. You don't want to have to stop and think "Did I actually bring my gun with me?" for even half a second.

Another reasoning is that if you only carry sometimes, will you be able to forgive yourself if one of the times you decide not to carry you need to defend yourself or others?

So I believe many that carry feel it's best to avoid both of these situations by promoting the idea that, if you're going to carry, you should do it always.


Mind you, I do not myself carry as my state does not yet allow concealed carry (we do have open carry, but I also lack a good firearm for such a purpose at this time), so these are just my impressions from chatting with other people who DO conceal carry, so please don't take what I have to say as gospel. ;)

[Ready4Change]

5. Practice.

In sports I used to practice my footwork. Over and over, long after I'd been initially trained in how to move. Why? So that when I needed to move in competition then I could do so completely fluidly.

I'm thinking something similar is the thought here. By carrying more often the familiarity that engenders may allow you to act with less complications arising. For example: have you ever carried while wearing a heavy winter coat? Can your hand gun catch on the coat as you draw it? Do you need to unzip/unbutton the coat to reach it? Are you wearing gloves? Thick gloves?

[OttavaKarhu]

40. This is the issue of tacit kinesic competence

And I agree with R4C. I danced semi professionally for many years and learned that the more I practiced and did floorwork, two things happened as a result. First, my tacit competence was always stoked. Second, I could go to a greater level of creativity and confidence beyond those basics. That greater level included more flexibility of response in the moment.

Having said that, I don't do a lot of panic-drawing-and-firing practice. I figure that if I ever need my firearm it's likely I'll be able to use some sort of stealth or trickery to buy myself a few seconds. Because of who I am and how I look, I doubt anyone ever looks at me and expects me to be armed. They also don't mistake me for a victim.

So while I *do* monitor things as you say (different clothing, different situations), but I don't fret myself into a frenzy that wearing gloves could be a matter of life and death. I've experimented with all that, and I know about myself that a strong baseline of tacit kinesic competence makes more of a difference for my physical skills than anything else. Others may have different experience, based on their own self knowledge.

One needs to apply the same mentality to carrying as one applies to any martial art. Each person's mileage may vary, depending on many factors. My firearms are "just tools," but I probably use my Japanese hand saws like no other person, ice skate just a little differently, etc. Some of that skill comes from practice, some from instruction, but there's no substitute for one's own commitment to building that competence and knowing oneself.

Also, I chose as my carry pistols SIGs, which have certain safety features that fit with how I like to carry. Understanding one's firearms is an important part of all this.

[X_Digger]

6. It is an interesting question

Would you only wear your seat belt when you're driving on the interstate or over a certain speed?

The thinking being that if you always knew which days or in what locations you'd need to carry, you could choose to stay in bed that morning or take an alternate route.

I'm new to CHL, so the newness hasn't worn off. I'm hyper-aware when carrying, thinking I'm telegraphing "MAN WITH A GUN!"

I do carry when going to the corner stop'n'rob, the grocery store, or best buy. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

[spin]

15. Most people have their head up their ass ...

and pay absolutely no attention to anyone around them. Such people are usually talking endlessly on their cell phones and are so involved in their personal affairs that they probably wouldn't notice that you were carrying a shotgun, let alone a concealed firearm.

That's why some call them "sheep".

If you print or wear concealment clothing that looks unusual in the situation you are in, the only people who might notice are other concealed carry permit holders, alert cops or really smart bad guys.

[Ihaterush]

8. It is their message of paranoia

"they" are telling all ccw permit holders that being able to carry a gun does no good unless you have it on you. There is a nutjob on youtube named "nutnfancy". he has a few videos about thing topic.

[eqfan592]

10. I've watched many of nutnfancy's firearm reviews.

Good info usually. Can't speak to his sanity, however, as I'm not an expert on sanity and paranoia like you appear to be. ;)

[spin]

12. Welcome to DU. I disagree with your views but welcome aboard.

You could easily go through your entire life and never have to use your concealed weapon. In fact, that's exactly what you hope for.

But you can practice situational awareness and use commonsense to avoid going places where you expose yourself to danger, and still find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. In such a statistically unlikely situation, your concealed weapon might be a very effective last resort. Of course, you can do everything right and still get killed. Still, if you are unlucky enough to find yourself in an extremely dangerous situation, the firearm you left at home will do you absolutely no good.

Obtaining a concealed carry permit and actually carrying a weapon is an enormous responsibly. If you misuse it, the legal system will show you no mercy. You might even use it for legitimate self defense and still end up in serious trouble. Even if you are entirely right and the legal system agrees with you, the psychological aftereffects of shooting someone are extremely hard to deal with.

Life is not like the movies. It comes at you fast and when you least expect it. If you survive, you might suffer lifelong after effects that will haunt you. Still you may survive. No matter how you cut it, that's better than the alternative.

"nutnfancy" does some good reviews on knives. I collect knives and enjoy his videos as they are somewhat informative about knives I'm interested in. I'm not sure that I would take his advise on concealed carry as I haven't watched any of his videos on that subject.

[Ihaterush]

42. Thankyou for your welcome...

I heard a story once... It was about a boxer who lost a lot more than he won in matches. After every match he would leave the venue and be heckled and harassed by people outside. After a while he got sick of it. He dicided to always have a diguise in his locker so when he left the stadium he wiuldn't be harassed anymore. And after a while he never won a match.

The point us once you have the mindset of "I can't win" you won't win. Now we have many many good people carrying firearms outthere and that is fine by me. It is the not good people who I am concered about.

[spin]

9. The range master at a range I used to shoot at put it this way ...

"You wanted a carry permit and applied to the state for one. The state checked you out and found you to be an honest citizen. They granted you a permit to carry because honest people with guns rarely misuse them and can occasionally use their firearm to stop criminals. While you in no way a cop, you may be somewhere, someday and use that weapon to save a life. Perhaps yours, perhaps someone else."

"As criminals begin to realize that some of the sheep have sharp teeth, they may stop attacking people and pursue other less dangerous criminal activities or possibly take up an entirely different line of work."

"The state of Florida wants more honest citizens on the streets who have firearms. You qualified. You now have a responsibility to carry the weapon and use it only if absolutely necessary."

We had a major problem in Florida where criminals were targeting tourists who were driving rental cars as they knew there was far less chance that a tourist was carrying a concealed weapon.

Some commentators have cited evidence of increased likelihood of victimization of people in Florida driving marked rental cars following the passage of the Florida concealed carry law as further evidence that concealed carry discourages crime.<49>

49. ^ Suprynowicz, Vin (1999). Send in the Waco Killers – Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998. Mountain Media. p. 384. ""The Florida tourist-shooting epidemic is also relevant in another way. Once the airport rental lots started removing their big fluorescent rent-a-car stickers, Florida's "tourist-murder crime wave" disappeared virtually overnight. (Ostensibly because criminals rightly figured that out-of-town tourists weren't armed like the Floridians were.)""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States#cite_note-suprynowicz-48

I asked another shooter who always carried why he did so. He replied, "If I had a calendar or a reminder on my computer that would tell me that I would need to carry a weapon that day, I wouldn't always carry. Unfortunately, programs that predict the future haven't been developed yet."

Some people suggest that you only carry your concealed weapon when you know it might be necessary. I would suggest that if you think you need a weapon on your person to go somewhere, avoid going there. You never go looking for trouble because if you do, trouble will find you.

But you carry your weapon for the times when despite all your efforts to avoid trouble, you end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. You hope and pray that it never happens and you practice situational awareness to alert you to potential dangerous situations and avoid unnecessary confrontations. Your concealed weapon is to be used only as a last resort. If all else has failed, it's a damn good last resort.

[eqfan592]

11. Careful now, spin...

"I asked another shooter who always carried why he did so. He replied, 'If I had a calendar or a reminder on my computer that would tell me that I would need to carry a weapon that day, I wouldn't always carry. Unfortunately, programs that predict the future haven't been developed yet.'"

Talk like that will get you labeled a paranoid nut-job by the resident experts! ;) After all, only those who claim they know EXACTLY when and where they'll need their concealed firearm can be truly sane!

[spin]

13. Actually most people who have concealed carry licenses don't carry...

all that often.

Most chose a large pistol with high capacity magazine and find out real quick that it's a pain in the ass to carry. So they leave it home when they go to the convenience store.

The majority of the people I've known who carry on a regular basis carry a smaller weapon. A snub nosed S&W revolver in .38 caliber or .22 magnum or a semi-auto in .380 or .25 caliber or even a small derringer. Often called "mouse guns", these smaller weapons are easy to slip into a pocket and are so light that you can almost forget that you're carrying them.

Note: I live in Florida where it's not all that easy to conceal a large framed revolver or weapon in the heat. Currently with this cold weather we are having, I could easily conceal a full sized 1911 style .45 auto under a light jacket. I have know several people who did carry large framed and heavy pistols in Florida. One concealed his weapon under his suit jacket. Several used Hawaiian shirts (which usually is a dead give away that you are carrying in Florida). One wore medical scrubs. Another, an ex-cop, carried a full sized Glock in a "fag bag" or fanny pack. (Note, "fag bag" is a cop term indicative of cop humor.) I used to wear a photographers vest which is also a give a way that you are carrying. I liked the many pockets because I stored all sorts of useful stuff for work. I still carried a S&W J-frame in my pants pocket although I could have carried a much larger weapon under the jacket. Occasionally, in my neighborhood, I would pass by some gang members with their loose fitting clothing. They would eye me and I would eye them. I'm sure they knew I was carrying and I knew they were. We would make eye contact, and nod and move on. I treated them with respect and they returned it.

[eqfan592]

14. Oh I have no doubt you're correct!

My sarcasm was more directed at the idea that somebody who carries all the time and promotes an ideal of do so is somehow a paranoid nutjob. :P

That's some very interesting info there though. I've word some loud Hawaiian shirts while on vacation in Florida. I'll have to keep what you said there in mind in the future. :P

[spin]

18. Walk into a gun store in Florida with a Hawaiian shirt ...

and watch the reaction. If your really alert you might notice the clerks reposition themselves. It won't be real obvious but if they don't know you, their alert level will elevate.

Yes, fools attempt to rob gun stores even though the people behind the counter are often armed and probably know how to shoot. I was really surprised when I asked the clerks at the gun stores I haunted. Every store had an interesting story.

[GreenStormCloud]

24. A gun store in Gulfport, MS had an interesting way of getting the point across.

There was only one short counter for the guns. At the back of the store was a one-way glass window. Under the window was a small rectangular hole, with a double barreled 12 guage in the hole, covering the counter and the door.

[spin]

31. Gotta love those double barreled shotguns ...

they make a BIG impression.

[burrfoot]

28. Spin-

I'm a Floridan as well (a transplant though, I have to admit); but a ways south of you. With it being this cold I'd give 50-50 odds I could successfully hide a bazooka; but my carry gun (for now) is a .22, the only one I have that's small enough for easy concealment.

I'm honestly glad to live in a state with so many CCW holders- I don't get those who cry panic at the thought. In Florida, you're just that much more likely, in the event of attempted victimization, to be helped by somebody who not only wants to help keep others safe but is actually equipped to do so.

How is this a bad thing????

I know, preaching to the choir.

:evilgrin:

[spin]

34. In the Tampa Bay area factory I worked at before I retired ...

there were a BUNCH of people with licenses to carry. The majority of people I worked with had firearms in their house.

Occasionally someone from out of state would hire on and express amazement at how well armed everyone was.

[rrneck]

19. You're batting 1000. Both posts well said. nt

[spin]

35. Thanks for the support. (n/t)

[east texas lib]

17. I carry everywhere that state law allows. Always.

In thirteen years I've drawn my weapon twice and both times the threat of deadly force caused the BGs to withdraw and seek easier prey. It was not a pleasant experience either time but I considered it necessary to my survival. I guess whether or not to carry all depends on how much someone likes living, to put it simply. And yes, I would have killed them if I had to. Thankfully for all, I didn't.

[logjon]

20. agreed

aware of the 360 degrees around you at all times.

[DainBramaged]

21. What do you think about carrying a gay person around?

Got holster for that?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. I have carried a few that needed a lift.

[east texas lib]

23. I'm sure my gay brother and cousin would appreciate your concern.

This being east Texas and all I carry them around in rolled up carpets in the back of my pick up whenever they come to visit.:o

[burrfoot]

25. I don't pretend to understand

in the slightest what your post is about; but actually I did give a gay man who was lost a lift to the place he was trying to get to. He was (assuming the story was true, which I do) new in town and had gotten off the bus at the wrong stop. I was driving by in my Jeep and he was only going about three blocks out of the way, but had no idea how to get there. He was a nice guy.

Oh and I didn't need a holster, he fit just fine in the passenger seat.


p.s. (WTF are you talking about??)

[east texas lib]

41. Cross thread stalking. Hang around and you'll see it all the time.

The current heavyweight champion of this virtual blood sport is a wanna-be Galactic Overlord from
waaaaay up north. You'll see for yourself soon enough.:D

[burrfoot]

44. Whose name rhymes with snarky-ass?? n/t

[east texas lib]

46. Ding ding ding!

I believe we have a winner!:thumbsup:

[SteveM]

26. Beware that you don't fall intoyour own trap, there BD (nt)

[burrfoot]

27. Big Thanks

to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts.

I do understand the "you don't know when you'll need it" idea, and I can't disagree. I do find that I'm more likely to carry in some circumstances than others, in which I believe there to be a statistically higher chance that I'd encounter a situation where I need a firearm.

For me (I know this may sound silly at first), those situations tend to be when I (or my girlfriend and I) are out after dark with our dog. We take him to a local dog park, which is outside of the city limits and far from either a police or fire station, and which abuts a much larger public park. Because it's winter, even if we take him out right after we get home it's going to be dark by the time we're leaving. My thought process goes: dark, remote, very few people around, far from any responding authority. Sounds like a place a criminal might choose. We also walk him across Ringling Bridge (yep; Sarasota, Fl!), and around various neighborhoods which, although understandably considered to be "safe," are not well lit.

FWIW, I'm also pretty new to carrying and am still working out the finer details in my head.


Thanks again, everyone; and if anybody has further thoughts/ideas keep them coming! It's refreshing to read a thread with nobody insulting anyone else or flying off the handle at each other.



O8)

[X_Digger]

29. Best investment for carry so far? A good gun belt.

http://www.lapolicegear.com/511-tactical-59502-closeout.html

[burrfoot]

30. Beautiful!

X, is that a Kahr 9mm?

[X_Digger]

32. Yup..

When I first got this belt, I thought, "No way is that going to be comfortable!" Actually, it evenly distributes the weight of the gun (Springfield XD 40 sub or full size 1911) and keeps it from 'drooping' on that side, no matter how I contort myself.

eta: Thought I had a link to another gun belt mfg, can't find it offhand though. These belts from 5.11 have a plastic core wrapped in leather, they will not flex and bend.

[burrfoot]

33. Outstanding.

Thanks for the suggestion and link!

How do you like the Kahr?

[X_Digger]

36. Wasn't mine, or my photo :)

We had a gathering at a local BBQ of CHL'rs, and someone brought up the photo on their phone. Everyone brought their favorite gear for everyone else to check out. (It seems that everyone who'se been carrying for a while has a box of old gear that they purchased and didn't like.)

[burrfoot]

43. Gotcha.

I wish they'd have that kind of BBQ here in Sarasota! (hint hint, anybody knows of one in SW Florida let me know!! :) )

[spin]

37. Another good choice for a belt ...

The Wilderness' Original Instructor Belt is an incredibly strong belt with a specially designed "V" ring buckle. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and the marketplace is full of copies of this belt, but none can compare to the original.
We're selling the five-stitch version, which has extra stitch lines to make the belt more rigid vertically in order ot better support holsters, magazine pouches and other gear. This belt is a favorite with law enforcement, military personnel, fire fighters, paramedics, etc. Note: The 1.75" belt works best with BDUs or jeans. The 1.5" belt features a scaled-down buckle.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/23795/catid/22/The_Wilderness__Original_Instructor_Belt_1_5_

The Original Instructor Belt was developed in 1983 and has been refined ever since, now offering higher quality and more options than ever. It is a very strong belt with a specially designed carbon steel V-ring buckle coated with non-glare black Roguard, a tough milspec finish which is highly corrosion-resistant and will not chip like cheaper coatings. The belt was originally designed to clip into a secure system while "instructing" others in high places during mountain rescue training, although they can be used for emergency rappelling with proper training. Our belts have also proven to be a fantastic everyday pants belt for casual or outdoor use, as well as concealed-carry.

Although not intended to replace a rappelling harness or to absorb a fall, the Instructor Belt provides peace of mind over the alternative -- no protection at all. We strongly recommend it for anyone involved in law enforcement, special warfare, or rescue operations where there is a risk of falling out of a helicopter. It has been standard operating procedure for years within the Phoenix Special Assignments Unit (SWAT) to clip into a Wilderness Original Instructor Belt during airborne or skid-riding ops. It has also been used by many professionals who like the safety of being clipped in when working in cherry pickers (the belt's first "save") or other tall structures.
http://store.thewilderness.com/product_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=2007&osCsid=4es622neccd3jn7ptdv9m43vq6

[OttavaKarhu]

38. For me it's not about "situational awareness"...

For me it's about kinesic/psychological habit. Like carrying my keys. Imagine saying, "Oh, what a lovely spring day, and my partner is at home while I take a walk, I'll leave my keys home." Or "This looks like a safe place, I'll just leave my keys in the car/ignition."

Nope. Every time, the keys come with me, are placed where keys are placed in my person or at home, etc. Same with the checkbook, ID, cell phone, ten bucks, and Leatherman (which is all I carry, the basics).

Or the Ten Essentials when hiking even just for an hour. Or wearing a helmet even when moving the motorcycle into the garage under power. Or always wearing kevlar around a chainsaw. Or protective glasses around power tools. My carry arms are protective gear. Like my shoes. I don't put my shoes on expecting to step on a rusty nail.

Or it's like baseball. If you always wear your hat backwards and adjust the left ring finger and right wrist of your batting gloves at the plate, then you do that. Each time. Does that make me a better batter? Who knows? If so, is it causal or psychological? Who knows? It is consistent, and baseball is a physical skill that relies on a high level of tacit competence. Like ballet.

But then my carry pistols aren't a big huge psychological deal for me. They're just tools. I use my keys and Leatherman every day. I use the phone a couple times a month maybe. I never use the guns. Some day I may have to/choose to.

My carrying always is also my way of underscoring my commitment to my own and others' safety. I didn't carry for many years. I implicitly/tacitly left my safety to others. Now I feel it is up to me to offer others what others have offered me all along. It's my turn.

I was talking to a man who said that in carrying he developed a huge and present situational awareness. He was a bit obsessed by that. Asked me what I'd thought. I replied that if he were a woman, or queer, or small, or disabled, it wouldn't take a firearm for that awareness to be with him. My firearms don't change that, they just give me another possible set of responses if things go a certain direction that I hope they never will. I feel the same about the tiny saw on my Leatherman.

[burrfoot]

45. What a thoughtful comment-

I hadn't thought about the commitment to safety angle. Very interesting. Thanks for that!