Gun-control advocates play fast and loose:

[spin]

More than 900 black males between the ages of 14 and 17 killed somebody in 2007. Should we be scared of young black guys?

Of course not. There are roughly 3 million black males in that age group in the United States. It would be horribly unfair to toss around the first statistic without mentioning the second; doing so would be misleading, if not malicious.

Now consider this statistic: Concealed handgun permit holders have killed 107 people since 2007. That news, from the Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C., sounds pretty bad - until you put it in context. How many Americans have been issued a permit to carry a concealed weapon?

The Violence Policy Center doesn't say. And it's probably impossible to pin down a precise number, because records are kept on a state-by-state basis, and reporting criteria differ from state to state. But NRA estimates put the number in the neighborhood of 5 million, as of a couple of years ago. (The NRA adds that permit applications have jumped 50 percent since the 2008 elections - which seems borne out at least here in Virginia. At present there are 211,435 active permits in the commonwealth. Just this year, Virginia courts have granted more than 62,000.)

If that's true, then the percentage of concealed-carry permit holders who have killed someone with a firearm comes to two one-thousandths of 1 percent. Yet to listen to the VPC's Kristen Brand - who says "concealed handgun permit holders are killing people over parking spaces, football games, and family arguments" - you'd think the cohort of permit holders was as dangerous as the gang at Rikers Island.
http://www2.hernandotoday.com/content/2010/jan/08/ha-gun-control-advocates-play-fast-and-loose/

[Don Caballero]

1. More gun nuttery gone mad

Fact is guns kill people. The more guns in America the more people will be killed by them. Personally I think all guns should be banned.

[eqfan592]

2. Evidence? Proof?

Are you not familiar with these words?

[X_Digger]

3. ORLY?

"The more guns in America the more people will be killed by them."

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/cv2.cfm

[GreenStormCloud]

4. Thankfully, we have the votes to stop you, and the Second Amendment. N/T

[Don Caballero]

5. Unfortunately that is true

I do hope in the future we get some really progressive leaders in the House who will push through much stricter gun control

[eqfan592]

7. Actually, really progressive leaders...

..would stand to BLOCK such measures (the pro-gun rights position has historically been the progressive ideal, and it's only recently when elements in the movement have attempted to make it appear otherwise). A good leader is one who will stand up to the forces of irrationality, be they the anti-gay rights movement, the anti-womans rights movement, or the anti-gun rights movement.

[Don Caballero]

9. You are comparing gay and womens rights to being allowed to own firearms

Wow.

[eqfan592]

11. You are failing to see how valid the comparison is.

That's an even bigger wow.

[proteus_lives]

12. I do.

Those to attempt to block rights are all the same.

Be those rights choice, marriage or firearms.

You have a lot in common with those who want to ban abortion and gay marriage.

[TPaine7]

13. The right to have the means to prevent you or your family members

being assaulted, killed, raped, tortured, kidnapped or robbed is trifling and unworthy of the respect accorded other rights?

Wow.

[spin]

14. RKBA is an extremely liberal and progressive idea ...

I am always amazed that those who claim to be liberal or progressive can't see that fact.

The two most important rights in the Bill of Rights are the First and Second Amendments. The First (the most important) guarantees the right to free speech, free press, freedom of religion, the right of the people to peacefully assemble and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. The Second provides a guarantee that if the first fails, the citizens have a means to resist a tyranny.

First amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Second Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

No more liberal or progressive words have ever been written on paper.

[eqfan592]

16. Nice post!!

"No more liberal or progressive words have ever been written on paper."


That's my favorite forum post line of the year so far! :D

[spin]

18. Thanks for your support, (n/t)

[PavePusher]

15. What evidence do you plan to use to support your action?

Or will you simply fall back on fear, emotion, hyperbole, and lies?

Edit: Isn't that what Republicans are for?

[bossy22]

17. whats your definition of stricter?

[DonP]

20. Whoa there Sparky. Answer the initial question based on your post.

"The more guns in America the more people will be killed by them."

You have been shown tangible and credible proof that your assertion is patently untrue. A reasonably intelligent and logical person accepts new information and adjusts their assumptions and world view to include the new, proven data. How about you? Can you learn from the information presented or are you basing your decisions on emotional rants and bumper sticker logic?

More guns seems to actually equal less crime, whether you like it or not. But don't let reality get in the way of your wishful thinking ... hoping for more bloodshed to prove your point maybe?.

How do you account for the fact that with a record number of guns in the hands of the law abiding, concealed carry in 48 states crime and murders are both going down?

[Don Caballero]

21. Sorry but I refuse to argue with gun nuts

Fact of the matter is if guns were totally illegal we would slash the number of murders and violent crime in the United States. There is no way anyone could argue against that.

[eqfan592]

22. Wow, seriously, Don?

How.....republican of you. "My way is right, and no matter what 'evidence' you bring up, your still just a nut and inherently wrong!" What's next, Don, gonna tell us how teaching "evilution" in school is destroying our society, because there's no "proof" of it? Or how about presenting the obviously convincing body of evidence that shows being gay is a choice? Seriously, you really ARE in that group of people with the sort of attitude you're displaying here. You can either choose to at least ATTEMPT to debate and discuss the issue rationally, or you can dance around the evidence and just keep calling everybody "nuts."

[Don Caballero]

23. Only evolution should be taught in schools and being gay is not a choice

Those two issues I agree with you on. To me much stricter gun control is the common sense answer to the violence we witness in the States. Fellow Democrats tend to back me on this you know.

[eqfan592]

24. And fellow Democrats tend to disagree with you as well.

Tell me, WHY do you agree with me on evolution and homosexuality? What personal research have you done on these issues? Could you hold your own in a debate with a religious zealot on these issues, and provide a solid foundation of evidence to support your claims? Or do you believe what you believe because that's what you were told was correct by your family and your peers? If you fall into the latter category, then you really are little different from that religious zealot.

Stricter gun control is only the "common sense answer" to those who haven't taken the time to even understand what is "common sense" about gun control and crime in the first place (assuming by "stricter" you mean "ban," as you implied in your first posting). Gun control is an easy out for people who don't wish to face the real, socioeconomic issues behind violence. Politicians love to sing gun controls praises because it makes it look like they are actually doing something, when in fact they are accomplishing little.

Don, the evidence is there for you to see, if you were willing to question your long-held beliefs. And that's what they are, Don: Beliefs. Beliefs held by you and an ever decreasing minority of people in this nation. And the reason why it's an ever decreasing minority is because of the very large body of evidence that shows that stricter gun control as a means of crime prevention has almost nothing to do with "common sense" at all.

[taurus145]

38. We do?

That's news to me.

[PavePusher]

25. In other words...

you are a troll or a child.

[TPaine7]

26. Your noble and principled refusal to argue with "gun nuts"

is like a mouse refusing to fight a grizzly.

[DonP]

27. Don C. = Troll?

You post inflammatory things in an issue specific forum, refuse to engage in any discussion with other forum participants and declare all of them "Gun Nuts".

That's pretty much the textbook definition of both a troll and a gutless wonder.

"Fact of the matter is if guns were totally illegal we would slash the number of murders and violent crime in the United States. There is no way anyone could argue against that."

That - is a pile of steaming horse crap and infantile logic in even the best light.

We could eliminate a lot of crime if we just did away with those pesky search warrants and made people that we don't like stop speaking out too. Any other basic American principles you want to shit can?

[spin]

28. You remind me of the flat earthers ...

The organization took a hit when satellite images taken from outer space showed the Earth as a sphere rather than flat, but they were not fazed. Shenton remarked: "It's easy to see how a photograph like that could fool the untrained eye."

The society also took the position that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, staged by Hollywood and based on a script by Arthur C. Clarke, a position also held by others not connected to the Flat Earth Society.

***snip***

The most recent world model propagated by the Flat Earth Society holds that humans live on a disc, with the North Pole at its center and a 150-foot (45 m) high wall of ice at the outer edge. The resulting map resembles the symbol of the United Nations, which Johnson used as evidence for his position. In this model, the sun and moon are each a mere 32 miles (52 km) in diameter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

I can present plenty of evidence that more guns does not equate to more violent crime (in fact the opposite).

For example this graph from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/cv2.cfm Note that the link does not come from a pro-gun website.




During this period of time gun sales skyrocketed in the United States. Just look at the period of time since Obama was elected.

Firearms sales have surged in the six months since Obama's election as millions of Americans have gone on a buying spree that has stripped gun shops in some parts of the country almost bare of assault weapons and led to a national ammunition shortage.

The FBI says that since November more than seven million people applied for criminal background checks in order to buy weapons, a figure excluding the many more buying at thousands of gun shows in states such as Virginia, without facing any checks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/13/guns-nra-america-obama-virginia

According to the SportsOneSource, a research firm that tracks the sporting-goods industry, firearms sales in large retail outlets are up 39% this year. Shops across the country are reporting ammunition shortages because stores can't meet demand for bullets. Data from the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System, which the industry uses as a proxy for overall firearms sales, are also revealing. From November 2008 through March 2009, FBI background checks, which are required every time a federally licensed gun dealer makes a sale, rose 29.3% over the same period a year earlier. In November alone, checks jumped 42%, to 1,529,635, the largest monthly total in the decade that the system has been in place. "Consumer demand is unprecedented," says Larry Keane, general counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, a trade association for the firearms and ammunition industry.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1889886,00.html#ixzz0c4HroVVc

According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), violent crime dropped in the first half of 2009.

Will crime drop keep gun sales rising?

Murders fell by 10% during the first half of the year as compared to the same period in 2008. Robbery and forcible rape dropped by 6.5% and 3.3% respectively.

Of all the things we have to be thankful for in 2009, a drop in these horrible crimes has to be at the top of the list.


At the same time, gun sales were surging, a fact pro-gun advocates have already connected to the drop in crime.


Are they really correlated? I'll leave that to others, but the possibility might be enough to help gun makers and their stocks in 2010.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/top-stocks/blog.aspx?post=1514506&_blg=1,1515858

As I have said before there are many reason why the violent crime rate has fallen over the last decade. The fact remains that since firearm sales have increased the number of firearms in our country dramatically, more guns does not equate more violent crime.

So I CAN argue that laws making guns totally illegal would increase the violent crime rate. Criminals by definition do not obey laws while honest people do. Unless you invent a magic wand to vaporize all firearms throughout the entire world, criminals WILL get guns. If enormous quantities of drugs can be smuggled into this country, guns would be comparatively easy. Criminals could rape and pillage and run rampant without fear of encountering armed homeowners or citizens on the street that are licensed to carry.

I have no problem with the fact that you dislike firearms. Guns are NOT for everybody. However the overwhelming majority of firearms owners treat their weapons with respect and handle them in a responsible manner. Anytime you have an extremely large number of people owning an item, you will encounter cases where the item is misused. Let's consider something as simple as a lawnmower, a ladder or a chainsaw. Most people own and use such items without problems, but still people die or suffer injuries because of irresponsible and foolish behavior. Cars are another example. People normally use a car for its intended purpose and operate it safely. Unfortunately, some drive while intoxicated, or while on a cell phone or at an unsafe speed. The result of such behavior are often tragic.

Yes, you can argue that that lawnmowers, ladders or chainsaws are not designed to kill. Handguns are designed for sporting uses, hunting or legal self defense. They are merely a tool and if used properly can fulfill their purpose.But like many other items, they can be misused. Their only use is not to kill, far from it.

I would suggest that you study the subject and objectively evaluate the statistics. If you do so honestly, I suspect that you will moderate your opinion on firearms. You may still dislike them, but you will realize that banning all firearms or making them illegal is futile and counterproductive.

You could support laws that limit the legal sales (including private sales) to individuals who can pass the NICS background check. You could push for improvements in the NICS background check and support legislation to provide the money to the states for more timely updates. You could also write your legislators to support better police enforcement and efforts to take those who illegally carry guns off the street.

If efforts such as these are pursued, the violent crime rate should drop further. Eventually we will live in a safer country where only sportsmen and hunters feel a need to own a firearm. I grew up in the fifties and sixties and I never knew an individual who owned a firearm for self defense. I can remember handling a handgun only one time in that period. It was a firearm that had belonged to the German army and had been "liberated" by a soldier, my father in law, who had landed in Normandy and fought across Europe to Germany. He had no ammunition for the firearm.

[SteveM]

42. You don't argue with "gun nuts" because you can't...

"Fact of the matter is if guns were totally illegal we would slash the number of murders and violent crime in the United States."

Fact is, even if you wrote that ban into law yourself, it ain't gonna happen. Making something "totally illegal" doesn't in itself effect social policy goals, such as you may have. Your approach is doctrinaire prohibitionism, and we have plenty of examples where things are made "totally illegal" without accomplishing the desired effect. In fact, some dire unintended consequences have resulted.

So yes, there are more than ample ways to argue against your position.

I would suggest that if you can't argue with "guns nuts" (really, most anyone who disagrees with your stance), then try listening to other arguments and looking at the data. That would be a lot more constructive.

[paulsby]

33. it's not progressive to take away people's civil rights

hth

[GreenStormCloud]

36. For fifteen years, voters have been turning such leaders out, and...

electing leaders who are pro-gun. In many districts and states, being anti-gun means losing the election. The People are speaking.

[SteveM]

41. The measure of who is "really progressive" is not taken by gun-control measures...

Modern Gun-control is a rather recent phenomenon within the modern Democratic Party; before 1968, there was little if anything said about it in the Party's platform. Only since the late 60s, has the issue been raised within the Party. This was partly due to high-profile assassinations, but mostly due (IMO) to the fear Americans had of blacks and other minorities possessing guns during an era of inner-city insurrection. A lot of Democrats (and some GOPers) didn't want to see that happen, and discovered the South's old gun-control laws could be adopted as a means of disarming minorities.

'Seems ol' Jim Crow done got run outta the South, and caught that freight North, too.

[TPaine7]

6. Bullshit

The more guns in America the more people will be killed by them.

You might wish to believe this, and it might appeal to your intuition, but it has been proven false. Murder has decreased at the same time that the number of guns, the number of "shall issue" concealed carry states and the number of concealed carry permits have increased.

Your intuition is not data and your fantasy realm is not reality. Why not tell the truth?

[spin]

8. While what you say makes commonsense ...

statistics prove you wrong.











During the period of time covered by these graphs, the number of firearms in this country increased dramatically.

Add to that the fact that many experts had predicted higher crime rates as the US grinds through a difficult recession, and the discrepancy has advocates on both sides of the Second Amendment debate rushing to their ramparts.

After several years of crime rates holding relatively steady, the FBI is reporting that violent crimes – including gun crimes – dropped dramatically in the first six months of 2009, with murder down 10 percent across the US as a whole.

Concurrently, the FBI reports that gun sales – especially of assault-style rifles and handguns, two main targets of gun-control groups – are up at least 12 percent nationally since the election of President Obama, a dramatic run on guns prompted in part by so-far-unwarranted fears that Democrats in Congress and the White House will curtail gun rights and carve apart the Second Amendment. emphasis added
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2009/1223/More-guns-equal-more-crime-Not-in-2009-FBI-crime-report-shows.

The FBI statistics undermine a favorite argument of anti-gun groups and some mainstream media that "more guns equal more crime," especially when you consider that the decrease in violent crime from late 2008 through the first half of 2009 occurred at the same time that firearm sales were surging.

The most popular firearms selling at that time were handguns and modern sporting rifles (AR-style rifles)--two types of firearms that anti-gunners never miss an opportunity to demonize. Law-abiding handgun owners have been filling concealed carry classes across the country, and AR-style rifles--long a favorite of target shooters--are growing in popularity among hunters as new calibers are introduced for small and big game. emphasis added
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7040

Now I am not going to say that (more guns = less crime.)

But I will say that the equation (More guns = more crime) is false.

Many factors contribute to the decrease in violent crime. One is better law enforcement.

[proteus_lives]

10. The very essence of a grabber.

Statements and claims they can't back-up.


"Personally I think all guns should be banned."

The authoritarian stink is strong with this one. What other rights would you like to get rid of?

[armueller2001]

19. Makes sense.

I mean, drugs are banned and there are NONE of those around.... they're so hard to find.

[Don Caballero]

29. Gun bans have worked in England and Australia

Gun crime is way way down. Hardly any murders due to guns.

[eqfan592]

30. Of course, "gun crime" isn't the problem, now is it?

It's violent crime that's the real key. If a person subs in a knife for a gun and kills you, exactly what have you gained? Not a damned thing. Now tell me about the violent crime rate in England?

Also, where are your numbers to show that gun crime is way down in either nation AS A RESULT of the laws they passed? You'll notice, for instance, that Australia's crime rates were all on a downward trend when they enacted their laws, and the laws appear to have had very little impact on that trend at all.

As for England, they actually experienced an up-tick in gun crime after their ban.

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/guns-england/2007/08/26/id/321524

In the end, guns do not appear, by themselves, to play a factor in the overall crime rate. We'd be better served devoting our resources in fighting the real causes of crime.

[PavePusher]

35. And their over-all crime rate?

Way up. including <gasp> gun crimes.

I know this for a fact due to the statistics, and due to having lived there for 7 1/2 years, in two stints, shortly after the hand-gun ban went into effect.

I also know it from the first-hand knowledge of having contributed to the stats as a crime victim. Multiple times. Along with a majority of my collegues.

So don't try to make like it's a bed of roses because they have less per-capita gun crime, their other crime rates have gone up. Very much up.

[slackmaster]

31. You think all guns should be banned, except, uh, let me guess...

Except for guns in use by government employees.

[paulsby]

34. so, only people like me should have guns?

(shudders...)

[taurus145]

37. You scare me! n/t

[Tejas]

39. two one-thousandths of 1 percent

In case you didn't see it the first time you read the OP.

[SteveM]

40. Personally, you can think all you want. But if you act on your thoughts...

expect strong, sustained and effective opposition. And fast, too.

You are repeating what amounts to a falsehood.

Since the mid-1990s, the number of people owning firearms has risen from almost 200,000,000 to (according to some estimates) some 330,000,000. During this time, violent crime (including murders) has declined significantly. Knowing this, logically "The more guns in America the more people will be killed by them" is demonstrably false.

These data do not say: "The more guns in America the LESS people will be killed by them" either, even though fewer people have been killed by guns in the referenced time frame. It simply says "The more guns in America the more people will be killed by them" is not supported by the evidence.

[PavePusher]

43. I think you are referencing the number of firearms owned...

not number of owners. I don't think every single person in the U.S., man, woman and child, owns a gun, no matter what the anti's like to claim we wish for...
:evilgrin:

[SteveM]

44. Woops. And here I was trying to AVOID saying that! Hell, with my numbers...

everybody and his/her cat would be armed.

[GreenStormCloud]

46. Cats a knife lovers. Each one has 18 switchblades., concealed carry. N/T

[SteveM]

47. Ha! I've been trying to keep an old ratter who is the housecat at this cafe...

I go to in Austin warm; gave her my old coveralls and a box. Man, it's cold in Texas!

[SteveM]

45. Correction:

My numbers above are 200 million guns-to-330 million guns in the hands of American civilians.

[paulsby]

32. and also

"killed" doesn't say whether it's a justified homicide or a murder, or what.

i would bet a very fair %age of the people killed by CCw'ers are justified.