Guns in church? ...

[spin]

“To arm ourselves in a place of worship, whether it is church or mosque or synagogue, is an insult to all that we believe about God’s kingdom and ultimately an insult to God,” he said. “Of all places, churches should be the closest that we come to the kingdom of God, in which we are at peace with one another.”

But the Georgia General Assembly may consider legislation in the upcoming session that would allow those who have concealed carry permits to take their guns into places that are currently off limits, such as churches, school zones, bars and college campuses.

***snip***

There were a number of church shootings in 2009, in Arkansas, Kansas and Illinois, among other states. Some gun rights advocates say that allowing those with carry permits to bring them to work might discourage such shootings.

“It makes sense for solid good citizens with no criminal background on their record, who are licensed and properly trained, should have the right to have their guns in the church if the church wants that,” Thomas said.

But Rep. Roger Williams, R-Dalton, says he is wary of such proposals.

“There’s certain places, churches, that I don’t think are appropriate to carry a concealed weapon. I’m in favor of gun rights and don’t want to curtail those, but there are sensitive areas,” Williams said.
http://www.northwestgeorgia.com/local/local_story_002222323.html

[Laura902]

1. Thats like bringing a gun into a mall

there are little children there and seniors, i highly doubt it would be effective

[GreenStormCloud]

5. So your solution is to let a mass shooter keep shooting?

There has been one mall shooter who was stopped by a citizen with a concealed pistol. And a church shooter who was stopped by a woman with a concealed pistol.

[Laura902]

8. No my solution is to stop going to church.....

......next would be to not allow people to have them at all and check people at the door where it is likely to happen again

[eqfan592]

9. I'm with you on not going to church.

But the other half, not so much, given the failure of the "gun free zones" program, I'd rather let people who can qualify for the license carry in these "gun free zones" for their own and others protection than rely on a sign to do the job.

[mrbarber]

14. "Not allow people to have them at all?"

Any other constitutional rights you want to throw out the window?

[Laura902]

19. Nope

I believe in a much stricter use of firearms, doesn't mean people should have them at all for home protection locked up or for hunting, but church is not a place that should turn into the wild west where people start shooting at each other

[eqfan592]

20. What's so bad about the "Wild West?"

http://www.guncite.com/wild_west_myth.html

It's a worthwhile read. ;)

[PavePusher]

22. This "wild west" you speak of...

I think you read to many penny-dreadfuls.

[SteveM]

27. This appears to be a non-solution...

"No my solution is to stop going to church." Perhaps this would be your personal approach, but do you advocate this as social policy?

"next would be to not allow people to have them at all and check people at the door where it is likely to happen again."

I presume you mean not allowing people to have them at all IN CHURCH. Or do you mean to not allow people to have at all ?

"check people at the door where it is likely to happen again." Do you mean where another shooting is likely to happen again, or where someone is likely to carry a gun again?

Please clarify.

[Laura902]

29. I don't mean not owning firearms at all

but If any sort of bad situation has happened in that area with all the conservative hot heads bringing their to church for protection sounds like a pretty fucking retarded idea.

[rd_kent]

28. To stop going to church is the BEST idea yet!

Imagine how many would stop being ignorant of they stopped going to church and started thinking for themselves.!!!!

[spin]

30. In many malls in Florida ...

you will find a bunch of seniors with concealed weapons licenses walking around.

[stray cat]

2. guns are only a nuisance -

[T Wolf]

3. I would encourage the fundies to carry loaded and cocked guns to church with them

EVERY SUNDAY. And to EVERY church event.

Especially to those where alcohol is served.

[slackmaster]

7. They did serve alcohol for communion in the church I attended in my youth

A whopping 11% alcohol

[GreenStormCloud]

4. There have been church mass shootings, and one that was stopped...

early by a lady with a concealed pistol.

[proteus_lives]

10. Shhhh!

Don't remind grabbers of that!

They hate it when reality intrudes on their fantasy world.

[LiberalFighter]

6. Considering how many are screwed up in the church it's a good place for them.

[safeinOhio]

11. A crowded church and 20 or 30 CCWs

Then a nut starts shooting. Can you say CROSS FIRE? Every church should have a security plan. It may include one member of the board with a CW. Also include escape plans and what everyone needs to do in an emergency. A person at the door to welcome and look over all people that come in. Not a frisk or anything any one would notice. Our Church has such a plan. Over a year ago a crazy right winger went in and shot up one of our own churches because they are a liberal UU Church .
I think a church has to put much thought into securing its members and have a plan. Having everyone armed is not a plan.

[eqfan592]

12. Sorry, safe, but I gotta disagree.

One of the basic tenants of firearm safety (which I'm sure you know) is knowing your target and what's beyond it. This doesn't change if you are a CCW permit holder. A scenario where a shooter is able to walk into a church, somehow open fire but not be identified by the people he's shooting at, and create an actual cross fire situation that involves CCW permit holders shooting other innocent people seems like a story more influenced by Hollywood than by reality.

Personally, I don't think I'd feel safer than if I were in a UU church packed with CCW permit holders. ;)

[PavePusher]

15. And your "cross fire"... that happens how often?

CCW's are a lot smarter than you give them credit for, on average. By and large, we don't just start blasting away at the drop of a hat.

[spin]

18. Can you find an incident where what you fear happened? (n/t)

[armueller2001]

21. Statistically speaking,

only 1-3% of a given eligible population will choose to get CCW permits. So your fears of 20 or 30 members carrying would be highly unlikely unless the congregation numbers over 1,000.

Would you have a problem with several police officers carrying in church as well?

[safeinOhio]

24. Whoa, I'm just suggesting that

a planned, organized response would be way more effective. I have nothing against CCWs in church. I have been told that many would feel uncomfortable knowing that there were guns in church and may not go. The shooting at the UU Church was done by some one bringing in a shot gun in a guitar case. The greeter never asked to look inside it. There were deaths and injuries. Several church members rushed him and subdued him stopping future deaths and injuries.
Many people and cops have been killed in cross-fire. Even trained people. I'll have to google it. A plan always works better than random actions. I have taken CCW classes in 2 states and neither schooled us in that type of situation. Sure they told us to be sure of your target, but nothing about close crowed situations. Some of those that passed(every one passed) I would not want to be in the same room with if gun were drawn and fired.

I wouldn't have any problem with a cop there, if he is trained in that type of situation. I know cops I wouldn't want there. As long as some one is trained and knows who are the good guys from the bad guys. That would more likely happen with a plan and the persons responsible know who is carrying. Seems most states have laws about CCWs in large auditoriums and sports stadium for a good reason. Even high school and small colleges have a armed cop at football and basket ball games. I would suggest you talk to your churches board to see if they have a plan and they have an armed person or allow you to carry. If not, there are a lot of churches to pick from if that is your concern.

[safeinOhio]

26. Link to shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

[SnakeEyes]

13. Thought this thread was something different

When I read the title, my first thought was Huck Finn.

[Euromutt]

16. Not that I have a dog in this fight

Being an atheist, I don't attend organized religious services, but I don't see why this can't be left to the churches themselves. If Mr. Taylor doesn't want guns in his church, that's his prerogative, but frankly, his theological assertions are not on solid ground. For example, New England Puritans brought their guns to church (the "meeting house," actually) all the time, in the event bandits, hostile Indians or pirates showed up during the service (which is also why Puritan men leave the church first; if there was any trouble, the armed men would be the first to encounter it). You may argue that it's not the 18th century any more, but that doesn't address the theological argument: the Puritans didn't think entering a place of worship armed was "an insult to God," and frankly, I don't see where Mr. Taylor gets off thinking he can speak for every other denomination, let alone other religions, on this issue.

If there are churches where the minister and the congregation have no objection to allowing CCW permit holders to carry on the premises, I don't see why the law should tell them otherwise.

[spin]

17. I agree...

The church can hang a "no guns" sign on it's doors and require that the congregation follow the rule.

How they go about checking for concealed weapons might be interesting. But be that as it may, if I saw the "no guns" sign I would simply avoid attending that church.

But then again, I don't attend church services. If there is any basis in most popular religions such as Christianity, the message has been corrupted over the ages.

The last time I was in church was for a marriage ceremony. I was carrying.

[PavePusher]

23. Actually, it would probably be up to his congregation. n/t

[aikoaiko]

25. THe proposed law would merely allow churches to decide for themselves whether to all CCW,

Instead of state law prohibiting concealed carry of firearms across the board.

Its really not a big deal at all.