Hunters and conservation

[MrBenchley]

Another "success story"....

"Beaver Basin Michigan also provided an example of overabundance and what can go wrong with supplemental feeding.
In the early 50s a private hunting club, owning 5 km2  of coniferous lowland winter deer range on Lake Superior, began feeding white-tailed deer. 
-          Swamps of mature cedar provided good cover, but little food, for
-          a couple of hundred deer that wintered in the area. 
-          Wolves were extirpated by the late 50s and the herd was not being regulated by hunting pressures. 
-          The well-fed herd increased. 
-          By the early 70s the club was feeding 40 tons of commercial deer rations every winter and another 40 tons each summer.  Even with this much feeding, the signs of starvation were common. 
 
In 1974, the club gave the property and the 650 resident deer to the National Park Service. 
-          Preliminary field studies suggested that the natural browse could only support 150-200 deer.  The PS continued to feed the deer. 
-          In 1976, they proposed a hunt of 300 deer to decrease the population. 
-          Local hunters protested that the biologists had overestimated the population and obtained a court injunction against the hunt. 
-          During the following winters, many deer died and most blamed malnutrition.  Coyote populations had increased with the deer herd. 
-          By Summer 1980, the population was down to 165, and the large number of coyotes took advantage of the deer during the late winter and decreased the herd to about 100. 
-          By 1983, none of the deer remained.
 
Furthermore, overbrowsing had altered the habitat.  White cedar decreased from 151 kg per ha while Balsam fir (rarely eaten by deer) increased from 3 to 10 kg per ha.  The deer herd crashed and habitat was damaged as a result of local pressure from hunters who could not be convinced that a special hunt was a desirable means of balancing deer numbers with the supply of natural foods."

http://www.humboldt.edu/~rnb2/wldf%20422/Overabundance.htm

[DarkPhenyx]

1. Yup! This was a bad idea.

So is not hunting the deer population at all. Or are you willing to live with wolves roaming your towns and cities? There is overpopulation in the deer herds in places where there isn't any suplemental feeding. Or don't you want to include that into your argument? Selective use of the facts is what got us into Iraq you know.

There are a lot of stupid decisions made, we realize we made a mistake, adn we try to fix the damage we did. What would be your problem with this? Mine is that we were stupid enough to fuck with a system that was running fine w/o us. We killed off the wolves. Now we have to do the best we can w/o them.

Why don't you include the stories about where hunters have done good things? Selective use of the facts again?

[MrBenchley]

2. Who the hell are you trying to kid?

"There is overpopulation in the deer herds in places where there isn't any suplemental feeding. Or don't you want to include that into your argument? "
Yeah, and in almost every place there is overpopulation, there are also farmed deer for hunters. Or don't you want to include that into your argument?

"There are a lot of stupid decisions made, we realize we made a mistake, adn we try to fix the damage we did."
Yeah? Funny how none of you brought up this mistake.

"Why don't you include the stories about where hunters have done good things?"
You mean like the yobbo who got lost in California and started the largest fire that cost billions of dollars and killed people?

"Selective use of the facts again?"
<sarcasm>Gee, guess I'm not objecctive like the RKBA crowd</sarcasm>...hahahahahahhahahaha

[Superfly]

3. Funny thing about that...

"farmed deer for hunters"

In my 22 years of hunting game on the North American and European continents, the only farmed deer I have ever seen or heard of was at a petting zoo in my hometown. Then again, they were reindeer, which would be very difficult to confuse with whitetails and muleys.

And, for all your screaming, we asswipe lunatics are putting millions of dollars and millions of acres off limits to development so that future generations can enjoy the bounty of this country.

[MrBenchley]

4. Gee....

Didn't take me long to find a shitload of information on the practice....but then I'm not desperately trying to stick up for a dying sport.

"we asswipe lunatics are putting millions of dollars and millions of acres off limits to development"
Sez you. Of course, then the NRA is electing the most anti-environment scum they can dredge up to counter that.

On the other hand, as Iverglas pointed out yesterday...

http://fecweb1.fec.gov/pages/24_2002_can.html

Lists expenditures that the Brady Campaign did report, along with expenditures reported by various other organizations, in 2002.


Also reporting expenditures AGAINST a candidate that the Brady Campaign opposed:
- Planned Parenthood organizations
- League of Conservation Voters

Ah, those funny bedfellows.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=26648&mesg_id=28042&page=

[Superfly]

5. Nevermind

...

[MrBenchley]

6. Really, fly?

How DO you explain that the League of Conservation Voters ends up supporting the same candidates as the Brady Center...

For that matter, look who else the gun lobby is in bed with...

"ALEC is a right wing public policy organization with strong ties to major corporations, trade associations and right wing politicians.
* ALEC’s agenda includes rolling back civil rights, challenging government restrictions on corporate pollution, and limiting government regulations of commerce, privatizing public services, and representing the interests of the corporations that make up its supporters.
* ALEC’s mission: “To promote the principles of federalism by developing and promoting policies…To enlist state legislators from all parties and members of the private sector who share ALEC’s mission…To conduct a policy making program that unites members of the public and private sector in a dynamic partnership to support research, policy development, and dissemination activities.”
* ALEC claims that it is “the nation’s largest bipartisan, individual membership association of state legislators.” All of ALEC’s officers who are state legislator members are Republican.
* ALEC is supported by many right-wing foundations and organizations, including but not limited to: National Rifle Association, Family Research Council, Heritage Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, Milliken Foundation, DeVos Foundation, Bradley Foundation, and the Olin Foundation. "

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=6990

The RKBA crowd has such NICE playmates, fly....

[Superfly]

7. Now you're confusing me

is this a RKBA thread or an anti-hunting tirade?

[alwynsw]

8. I'd like to play, too

but I must be of. My cousin passed away and the funeral is today. I need to go do my pallbearer duties and wish her godspeed.

Keep up the good work, Fly.

[MrBenchley]

9. Just a post noting your playmates, fly...

You guys are the one claiming that you're such hot-blooded champions of conservation...but it turns out the lobby you spend your time pimping for supports polluters.

And that it's we anti-gunners who support the politicans who actually DO protect the environment, according to the League of Conservation Voters.....

[Superfly]

10. And according to the League of Superheroes

Wonderwoman is a hottie.

I showed you the money and a bunch of organizations who donate millions of dollars and millions of man-hours to conservation projects. These aren't people who are just giving lip service to conservation, but actually doing something.

[MrBenchley]

11. Yeah, and they hardly ever kill for fun

"I showed you the money and a bunch of organizations who donate millions of dollars and millions of man-hours to conservation projects. "
Big fucking deal. I showed you the gun lobby supporting polluters. You want to pretend an elk preserve for hunters in the middle of nowhere makes up for that, be my guest.

[Superfly]

12. Just as I suspected

"Big fucking deal." -So, I take it that pretty much sums up what you have to say on conservation. Got it.

"elk preserve" -And, here, we can see that you bothered not to read what the RMEF does or has in mind for this land. Once again, and let me quote their official mission statement:

The mission of the Elk Foundation is to ensure the future of elk, other wildlife and their habitat.

In support of this mission the Elk Foundation is committed to:

-Conserving, restoring and enhancing natural habitats;

-Promoting the sound management of wild, free-ranging elk, which may be hunted or otherwise enjoyed;

-Fostering cooperation among federal, state and private organizations and individuals in wildlife management and habitat conservation; and

-Educating members and the public about habitat conservation, the value of hunting, hunting ethics and wildlife management.

[MrBenchley]

13. And just as I suspected

Strip away the horseshit, and you got a bunch of blowhards shooting elk and claiming it's for the elks' own good.....

"-Educating members and the public about habitat conservation, the value of hunting, hunting ethics and wildlife management."
We had to kill that elk to save it....

[Superfly]

14. Tsk, tsk, tsk

- you have a problem with habitat conservation, hunting, ethics, and wildlife management education?

So, tell me again, how much money/land did your organizations put away toward ANY of these goals? Or, can you even list any organizations that you think are pushing for conservation with real, tangible goals and results, and not just lending lip service to it?

[MrBenchley]

15. Hahahahaha....

We had to kill that elk to save it...

"not just lending lip service to it?"
You mean like claiming to help animals they hunt and kill?

[Superfly]

16. Demonstrating a clear

lack of understanding on conservation, you are. May I suggest a night course at your local community college...something like Environmental Science 101. Or, if that is too advanced for you, try picking up a copy of Fighting For the Forest by Ranger Rick.

[MrBenchley]

17. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrre....

"Environmental Science 101" Jeeze, most courses like that explain why polluters like the ones the gun lobby's in bed with are bad for the environment...and why the policies pushed by the politicans the gun lobby support are a disaster for the environment.

They also probably advise students interested in protecting the environment to heed the League of Conservation Voters...and the candidates the LCV support also get support from the Brady Center. Wonder why?

[Name removed]

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[Superfly]

23. Actually I tote a gun

because I've been the victim of 2 violent crimes and I kill animals so that I may eat. I assure you, that my wife is most pleased with my, um, "shortcomings"...although she and I would have a different word for it....more like "third leg"...ha, ha, ha.

[Name removed]

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[DarkPhenyx]

20. You are assuming that all of us support LCV.

Bad assumption hoss. Sorry, but you do seem to have a bad habit of making bad assumptions.

[MrBenchley]

24. Hell no...

I know most of the RKBA crowd doesn't give a shit about anything but their fetish and this "if not for us there'd be no conservation" crap is just another lame tactic that's born out of desperation.

I know people who actually DO support conservation also support the League of Conservation Voters...just as I know that the politicans the gun nuts love, like Bwana Dick Cheney, hate the environment except as a repository of targets. Hence the frantic attempt the other day to make excuses for his disgraceful canned hunt..

[Superfly]

27. Well, that may not be the case, but

conservation would severely be hurting if it weren't for causes such as RMEF, DU, TU, Pheasants Forever, etc, etc, etc

Oh, yeah...what have you done for conservation lately? I would hazard a guess and say that you have done shit...

[DarkPhenyx]

29. Well, as a member of the RKBA crowd...

...I can tell you that I care about a great many more things than hunting and the RKBA. So...as your broad generalization is once again probven flawed and invalid...

Further point to invalidate your last post:

...I hate Dick Cheney.

...I do not view the environment, which is a very large issue BTW, as simply a repository for targets.

...I view his canned hunt as moronic.

Any otehr point you want me to invalidate for you?

[alwynsw]

68. I'd like to see solid evidence of that one, Benchy

Admittedly, I've had a fairly varied career history. Most of my adult life has been spent working in environmental affairs on the corporate side.

Given that, a number of gunmakers and munitions makers were my customers. During the time I worked with them they were far more responsible than any other type of manufacturer or processor I dealt with concerning environmental matters. I can only speak about the several years I dealt with them, but I cannot imagine that they have slipped so grievously in a few years.

[MrBenchley]

70. Been there, done that...

As Iverglas pointed out...

http://fecweb1.fec.gov/pages/24_2002_can.html

Lists expenditures that the Brady Campaign did report, along with expenditures reported by various other organizations, in 2002.

Also reporting expenditures AGAINST a candidate that the Brady Campaign opposed:
- Planned Parenthood organizations
- League of Conservation Voters

Ah, those funny bedfellows.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=26648&mesg_id=28042&page=

"ALEC is a right wing public policy organization with strong ties to major corporations, trade associations and right wing politicians.
* ALEC’s agenda includes rolling back civil rights, challenging government restrictions on corporate pollution, and limiting government regulations of commerce, privatizing public services, and representing the interests of the corporations that make up its supporters.
* ALEC’s mission: "To promote the principles of federalism by developing and promoting policies…To enlist state legislators from all parties and members of the private sector who share ALEC’s mission…To conduct a policy making program that unites members of the public and private sector in a dynamic partnership to support research, policy development, and dissemination activities."
* ALEC claims that it is "the nation’s largest bipartisan, individual membership association of state legislators." All of ALEC’s officers who are state legislator members are Republican.
<sum> ALEC is supported by many right-wing foundations and organizations, including but not limited to: National Rifle Association, Family Research Council, Heritage Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, Milliken Foundation, DeVos Foundation, Bradley Foundation, and the Olin Foundation. "

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=6990

[DarkPhenyx]

19. "Gee, guess I'm not objecctive like the RKBA crowd"

You are right. You aren't. Nice that you finally acknowledged this. Thank you. :)

[MrBenchley]

26. Any time.

I'm glad I ain't got a speck of whatever it is David Duke, Ted Nugent, John Lott, Larry Pratt and the RKBA crowd's other playmates have.....

[DarkPhenyx]

30. Are you sure you aren't Ann Coulter?

Or maybe Rush, or Bill, or soemone like that? Your argument sure read like a RW diatribe. Choose one post, one individual, one lie...then use it to paint the entirity of the oposition in that color.

[MrBenchley]

31. Nope, Ann Coulter's RKBA all the way

Most of those lying right wing pieces of shit are....wonder why?

[DarkPhenyx]

32. Well, you sure sound like them.

Arguments completely w/o merit or logic, based entirely on flawed observations and exagerations/deceptions.

Wonder why?

[MrBenchley]

34. The lack of merit and logic

is entirely on the RKBA side....as are the exaggerations and deceptions.

[DarkPhenyx]

36. Sure sign of a lost argument...

...when your opponent is reduced to simply turning your arguments around and parroting them back to you. Thank you for yet another victory to my name. Five more and I get a toaster.

[MrBenchley]

39. An even surer sign

is when somebody starts producing peculiar rules and portents claiming some sort of "victory."

But it's all right. As I said, I don't think this new tack by the RKBA crowd is particularly convincing...even to you guys.

[DarkPhenyx]

41. What new tact?

If you could even come up with one good argument then I'd be ahppy to let you win. Unfortuantely you have yet to support it against any counter evidence. In fact you completely ignore anything that is said and simply claim that it's all a lie. Like I said. Just a typical tactic for a RW'er.

[MrBenchley]

48. Gee, phenyx

most of the RKBA crowd doesn't give a shit about anything but their fetish and this "if not for us there'd be no conservation" crap is just another lame tactic that's born out of desperation.

I know people who actually DO support conservation also support the League of Conservation Voters...just as I know that the politicans the gun nuts love, like Bwana Dick Cheney, hate the environment except as a repository of targets. Hence the frantic attempt the other day to make excuses for his disgraceful canned hunt..

[DarkPhenyx]

50. Once again you make a broad generalization....

...about a large group of people. Everytime someone does that it means their logic is eitehr flawed or non-existant. Particularly when they do it w/o any supporting statistics to back teh statement up.

[MrBenchley]

51. And the generalization is right on the money

But DO go ahead and tell us that the League of Conservation voters doesn't support conservation...

[DarkPhenyx]

53. OK, how is your statement that...

..."the RKBA crowd dosen't give a shit about anything" right on the money? Keep in mind that I have already proven you wrong on this.

[MrBenchley]

54. Hand us another laugh...

all anyone has to do is look down below where you're desperately flopping and flipping to avoid the issue...

And the ONLY thing you've proven is that you want to avoid discussing what your lame crack about the League of Conservation Voters meant.

[DarkPhenyx]

55. So you refuse to answer my question?

And I do believe you are the one doing the flopping.

[MrBenchley]

59. Answered it

and I'm not the one flopping.

[DarkPhenyx]

60. So please restate your answer, as I apparently missed it...

...and also demonatrate where I am flopping. Direct citations only please.

[DarkPhenyx]

33. BTW: Mike Malloy is RKBA too.

In fact he says "any liberal who does not own a gun is an idiot." I'll let him know you think he's a RW nut case.

[MrBenchley]

35. Feel free....

Ask him to explain why all of the really scummy folks are peddling that "gun rights" crap....

While you're at it, be sure and explain to him how the League of Conmservation Voters has nothing to do with conservation.

[DarkPhenyx]

37. Again with the exageration.

Not all of the "scummy folks" are pro-gun. Not all of the people that are pro-gun are "scummy folks". You must be Ann Coulter. She defiantely loves using teh tactics you are.

[MrBenchley]

40. And again with the horseshit....

"Not all of the "scummy folks" are pro-gun."
Name one that isn't. Somebody dredged up Bill O'Reilly the other day...but it turned out nobody could actually find anything the blowhard had said that was particularly anti-gun and plenty he'd said that was pro-gun.

"You must be Ann Coulter."
Like I said, Ann's RKBA all the way. She even claims to have a defensive use of her gun....but of course she's a lying skank.

[DarkPhenyx]

42. Superfly, myself, Mike Malloy...

...all of us are pro-gun, none of us are scummy.

Next argument?

[Superfly]

44. Thank you, sir.

And the same to you. It's a pleasure to know you!

[DarkPhenyx]

45. Same here, and you are welcome. n/t

n/t

[MrBenchley]

47. Sez it all...

""Not all of the "scummy folks" are pro-gun."
Name one that isn't."
Dodge and weave, but you still haven't done anything but dodged and weaved...

[DarkPhenyx]

49. Wrong again.

I gave you names of people who are not scummy who are in fact pro-gun. You have decided to be to ignorant, or too pig headed, to see. Your choice.

Simply saying that it is so dosen't make it so. Yet again you resort to RW tactics.

[MrBenchley]

52. Yeah, and that wasn't what was asked...

[DarkPhenyx]

56. You are correct. Mea culpa.

To answer your question then. The Pope is pretty scummy, in my book, and not pro-gun.

[Superfly]

57. You think with all those cardinals

who bathe him daily, that he would be pretty non-scummy. :shrug:

[DarkPhenyx]

58. Excellent point.

Proof that some things just don't wash off? It does make one wonder about that whole baptism thing.

[Superfly]

61. Hey, we're not bashing catholics now, are we?

Because if you are....

[DarkPhenyx]

62. Naaaaaaaaaaa, not at all.

Just the Pope, and only a little.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[DarkPhenyx]

64. Please explain why you come to that conclusion.

Provide citations of my posts and explaination as to why I was flopping in that particular post.

Defining "flopping" as you see it would probably help too, as I don't think it agrees with how 99% of the world views it.

[juancarlos]

65. I've got tons of them...

I don't think I'm scummy. Do you think I am?

[DarkPhenyx]

66. He's looking for people who are scummy, in his opinion...

...who are not pro-gun. If you ask I think he'll tell you anyone pro-gun is scummy. He has a pretty close minded opinion about that.

[alwynsw]

67. HEY! You forgot me!

I'm not scummy anymore! I bathed since I went to Newark!

...and a sincere thanks for the sentiment from me - one of the the RKBA Du'ers.

[VelmaD]

43. Don't wanta spoil y'all fun but...

I think everybody on this thread could probably stand to head to the Lounge and hang out on the "Feel the LOVE" thread for a little bit. :-)

[Superfly]

46. Lots of love here...refer to these posts:

see posts 42, 44, and 45

[alwynsw]

69. I love my scummy friends - I really, really do!

(Is "feeling the love" the same a fondling?)