Metro Detroit has the highest number of approved concealed weapon permits

[depakid]

sign of the times, or reflection of less red tape?
---------

In just one year, the number of permits to carry a concealed weapon have doubled in Michigan. As of January 5, the Michigan State Police reports that 272,517 Michiganians are licensed to carry. Metro Detroit leads the state with approved permits, with 50,821 in Wayne County, 37,576 in Oakland County and 25,087 in Macomb County.

According to the Associated Press, a revision of the state's CCW in 2001 has made it easier for county boards to approve permits, waiving past felony convictions and mental illness diagnoses for potential applicants.

Some of the regions's highest-profile crimes, however, are tied to individuals with CCW permits.

Jamar Pinkney Sr., the Detroit man charged with the murder of his teenage son after he allegedly molested his younger sister, had an active CCW at the time of the incident. So does Tigh Croff, a Detroit man charged with shooting and killing a would-be burglar in December.

On a smaller scale, a Detroit woman with a CCW permit shot and killed a failed purse snatcher at a gas station. And, as previously reported, much of Detroit's City Council is armed and ready as well.

According to the Violence Policy Center, which tracks the number of people killed by other people with CCW permits, at least 8 other Michiganians have been killed in similar incidents -- including the case of Harlan Drake, an Owosso anti-abortion activist who went on a shooting rampage late last year.

More: http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/01/metro_detroit_has_the_highest.html

[TPaine7]

1. More BS from the VPC?

What a surprise!

Some of the regions's highest-profile crimes, however, are tied to individuals with CCW permits.

Jamar Pinkney Sr., the Detroit man charged with the murder of his teenage son after he allegedly molested his younger sister, had an active CCW at the time of the incident. So does Tigh Croff, a Detroit man charged with shooting and killing a would-be burglar in December.

What crimes? Is it a crime TO BE CHARGED with murder? And what's wrong with shooting a would be burglar? In America, people are innocent until proven guilty, and there is insufficient evidence--at least in the OP--to even opine on these people's guilt.

I can understand why the VPC would count imaginary crimes TIED TO CCW permit holders: it helps to inflate the numbers. Waiting to count convictions wouldn't be good propaganda.

To answer your question, it's a sign of the times. As much of Detroit's City Council has permits themselves, they are less likely to try to make their permits worthless.

How does defeat taste?

[HBravo]

2. VPC fits everything to fit their agenda. nt

[depakid]

10. The VPC? LOL- you folks really are paraoid

Must be bizarre to live with that sort of obsessive fear all the time.

[TPaine7]

12. Contempt |= paranoia

I can only speak definitively for myself, but I doubt anyone here is AFRAID of the VPC.

To note that a feeble and incompetent adversary twists things to fit its contemptible agenda is not a sign of fear.

We're about as afraid of the VPC's sophistries as we are of its apologists' intellectual rigor on this forum.

[depakid]

14. Who the hell is the VPC?

You gun obsessives are as laughable in your demialisnm as you are frightened of everyday life.

[TPaine7]

16. I feel sorry for you.

Who the hell is the VPC?

From the OP:

According to the Violence Policy Center, which tracks the number of people killed by other people with CCW permits, at least 8 other Michiganians have been killed in similar incidents -- including the case of Harlan Drake, an Owosso anti-abortion activist who went on a shooting rampage late last year.

Talk about laughable!

:rofl:

[depakid]

17. Ah- OK- a group who's mission is to prevent the high rates of violent crime in the states

Not being obsessed about "someone taking my guns," the acronym didn't register (though I can see why you wouldn't like such a group and would summarily dismiss their findings).

Perfectly in character.

Especially for those who selfishly refuse to take any responsibility for the harms that the policies they advocate cause society (and potentially their own families, who they willfully endanger by keeping guns in the house).

[Pavulon]

18. They are like using the KKK as a source for race related data

they are an agenda group that spins info to sell their line of bullshit.

[TPaine7]

19. Again, I feel sorry for you.

You believe--or pretend to believe--that their "mission is to prevent the high rates of violent crime in the states."

Their mission is to separate Americans from their rights. Like their partner organization, the Brady Campaign, they have to know that their tactics are useless--or more accurately, counterproductive.

I started an OP on the criminally insane policies they--and YOU--favor. Care to comment ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x283528 )?

[depakid]

21. LOL- you're so paranoid and disturbed it's a source of pity

Quite similar to the nation at large.

As to your pathetic absolutist approach to gun proliferation- you're about to get a big dose of that ideology and style of jurisprudence with the 1st Amendment. I hope you'll enjoy what that brings you (it'll be even "better" than your continual mass shootings, cop killings, family murders and workplace massacres and casual gun crimes).

A real beaut that one will be- hastening your already rather steep trajectory into third world status. By the end of the decade, you'll be Canada's Mexico.

[TPaine7]

23. More demented babbling?

The only reason you can look down your nose at America is because you're standing on head.

Perhaps someday, a few centuries from now, Australia (or wherever you hail from) we be a player on the world stage.

You're dismissed. You weren't that entertaining, anyway.

[Taitertots]

36. They do no such thing

"who's mission is to prevent the high rates of violent crime in the states"
They do no such thing. If their policies worked Mexico would have no crime. They are a group with the sole goal of restricting access to firearms, not preventing crime.


Our policies don't harm society and we have shown it to you repeatedly. The only harm is making you shiver in fear like a 10 year old girl at a haunted house. Don't listen to them, it is just a guy with a mask.

[HBravo]

13. No fear, just read what they say and then look at the real story

and other stories.:)

[Redneck Socialist]

20. I suspect that you wouldn't accept the NRA as a source.

The VPC is the opposite side of the coin.

On Edit: Wait, you didn't even know who the VPC are? Oh lord...

[Katya Mullethov]

3. Could there be a link between the high CCW rate

and the low number of supermarket chains in the Metro Detroit area ?


Discuss .

[HBravo]

15. CCW people

go through more training and spend more time at ranges than your local law enforcement personal.

[Katya Mullethov]

24. Look at me

Are you high ?

[GreenStormCloud]

25. No. Crime chased away the big supermarket chains.

Go to any place that has a high crime rate. You won't find the large supermarket chains there. You will find smaller stores with cashiers behind glass. Some stores, that I once saw in New Orleans, require you to give a list, through the glass, to an attendent. He gets the stuff, you pay, they give you the stuff. Prices are higher because of the added cost of the high security.

People want CPLs due to the high crime in the area. Go to the article and read the comments.

[Katya Mullethov]

28. Dont you mean..... yes ?

[PavePusher]

4. So, in an article insinuating that CCW'ers are fueling some sort of crime spree...

More than half the quoted incidents are of legel self-defense.

:dunce:

Do you want to undermine your positions any more? Seriously, I've got all night...

[GreenStormCloud]

5. CCW holders, as a group, are still safer with guns than the general public.

Any large group will have some rotten members. There are about 5,000,000 CCWers in the U.S. With that many members, there will be a few that managed to slip through the screening. But they are very few.

A few weeks ago, I posted a thread referencing the VPC numbers and used them to demonstrate how extremely safe CCWers are.

In the U.S., you are 27 times more likely to be struck by lightning that to be killed by a CCWer. I would say that is extremely good odds.

[GreenStormCloud]

6. It is worthwhile to read the comments to the article.

They are almost unanimous in approving of people, especially in Detroit, having Concealed Pistol Licenses. In fact, several commentors said that if they lived in Detroit, they would have a CPL too.

[Old Codger]

7. They also

Honor a lot of other states license holders, I have an Oregon license and Mich. honors it... Many states honor other states licenses..Unfortunately Oregon is not one of them for some reason

[rd_kent]

8. More BS from the usual source. Did you have a point to make? Probably not, as usual?

Since every time you try and repeat the same claim over and over, it is refuted, FACTUALLY, over and over.


How's the crime down there in OZ? Still have it, right? Banned knives yet?

[depakid]

11. Your CCW's are killing people- contrary to repeated claims to the contrary

for starters.

Given the cowardice among gun proliferation advocates- the extent of it in many states can't even be recorded,

Tick tock til the next mass shooting, family murder, cop killing, tragic accident or workplace massacre.

They've gotten so common, they barely break out of local news anymore.

[SteveM]

27. Well, just lance that boil! (nt)

[rd_kent]

29. C'mon, depakid, you know the truth. Do we need to go over it, again, that CCW holders are 5 times

SAFER than non-ccw holding citizens? DO we need to rehash the fact that you are 27 times MORE LIKELY to be struck by lightning that to be shot by a CCW holder?


I mean really, you have MORE knife attacks in OZ per capita than we have CCW holders shooting people.


I think you need to get your priorities straightened out, as YOU, yes YOU, are MORE likely to shoot someone than I am (because I am a CCW holder).


So, between you and I, who is the most dangerous? Well, friend, that would be YOU.

[Euromutt]

31. A miniscule percentage of Michigan CPL holders committed at most 0.5% of Michigan homicides

I refer to my post #30 further down the thread. The VPC has been compiling incidents of permit holders killing people since May 2007, i.e. for 32 months. During that period, in which something in the order of 1,600 murders occurred in Michigan, there were 8 people killed by CPL holders, and it has yet to be established whether those were all unlawful. And out of a population of over 272,000 CPL holders, at most seven may have each committed one or more unlawful killings.

The only possible reason "the extent of it <...> can't even be recorded" is because the problem is almost negligible. Hell, Detroit PD officers fatally shot ten people in 2008 alone, and there's only about 3,500 of them!

Seriously, if you were part of a particular (statistical) population--let's say, Melbourne Storm supporters--and 0.0026% of that population committed a homicide, would you think it was fair to assert that "Melbourne Storm supporters are killing people"? Or would you think that was a gross generalization based on an extremely unrepresentative sample of that population?

[taurus145]

32. You remind me of a kid in the cafeteria at school

with your failed attempts to paint CCW holders as demons of some sort.

The kid stumbles and ends up wearing his lunch, then covering, loudly exclaims, "I meant to do that!", rather than simply admitting that he screwed up.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. You are 27 times more likely to be struck by lightning that killed by a CCWer. N/T

[rd_kent]

9. dang, depakid, your post got SMASHED even before it got started.

I find it funny how you post these stories, only to have it undermine your position.


FAIL!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. They are the gun control group mentioned in YOUR op. You should do some research.

[Tejas]

26. All of those permits belong to LEO's

Wayne County leads because they include state, county and city records of permitted LEO's that are generated/kept in Wayne County.





See, like the VPC, I can make up drivel on the fly too.

[Euromutt]

30. How alarmist can you make a story?

So 8 residents of Michigan have been killed by CPL holders since the VPC started counting in May 2007.

During 2008 and 2009, there were 754 homicides (of which 706 were ruled criminal) within the Detroit city limits alone (http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/01/detroit_police_homicides_up_by.html), according to Detroit PD, and they've been known to underreport homicides (http://detnews.com/article/20090618/METRO/906180406/Detroit-police-routinely-underreport-homicides). For the whole state of Michigan, there were 676 murders in 2007, and 542 in 2008. Statistics for 2009 aren't available yet, but it's a safe bet it'll be in the 450-550 range.

So, at first glance, we have 7 out of 272,517 Michigan CPL holders, who have committed at most 8 out of ~1,600 homicides (I say "at most" because there is a possibility of acquittal in a couple of cases); i.e. 0.0026% of CPL holders committed at most ~0.5% of Michigan homicides.

And describing Harlan Drake as having gone on a "shooting rampage" is a bit of an overstatement; it's not like he went rounds shooting at random people left, right and center. He was arrested after committing his second shooting (and before he could commit the third he intended), and then told police about the first. More importantly, the people he shot were deliberately selected. And in keeping with the article's overall degree of accuracy, Drake wasn't an anti-abortion activist; one of the people whom he shot was.

[Tim01]

34. 8 out of 272,517 wow. nt

[Taitertots]

35. Obvious lies

"waiving past felony convictions and mental illness diagnoses for potential applicants."
This is an obvious lie. Felons can't own firearms. People adjudicated mentally unfit can't own firearms. This is federal law.


Notice how the area selected is "metro Detroit". This is to include the wealthy suburbs that surround Detroit, but have low crime rates. Attempting to associate crime in Detroit with CPL holders miles away.


Also notice how 270,000 armed people can only be linked to 8 deaths.