Can't get a gun here? No problem: Florida will issue permit, and local police must honor it. Phila.

[RamboLiberal]

IMAGINE HAVING YOUR driver's license revoked in Pennsylvania but then being able to get one in Florida - through the mail - that must then be honored here.

Now imagine it happens with guns. Because it does.

Pennsylvania residents who are denied a license to carry a concealed weapon, or have theirs revoked, have found a loophole that allows them to get a license from another state that must be honored here.

-----

Police and prosecutors are furious about the loophole, but gun-rights advocates say that it's the Philadelphia Police Department that has put a loophole in the process by requiring far more of applicants seeking permits for concealed weapons than the other counties in the state, where permits are issued by their sheriff's departments.

"You can purchase a firearm but you can't get a permit in Philadelphia to save your life," said Richard Oliver, a firearms instructor in Northeast Philadelphia who teaches safety courses for those seeking permits out of Florida and Utah. "That's what causes people to go to other states to get the permits."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20100205_Can_t_get_a_gun_here__No_problem__Florida_will_issue_permit__and_local_police_must_honor_it__Phila__authorities_are_irate.html

As a PA firearms owner from SW side of state it sounds to me like Philly which is notorious for trying to have their own NYC type laws on guns for the most case is forcing many of the gun owners there to use the loophole because they can't get a license that sheriff's if gun owner lived in other parts of PA would issue to them.

[X_Digger]

1. Can't get married here? No problem: Connecticut will issue license and local police must honor it.

.. or it _should_ be that way if the 'Full Faith and Credit' clause were enforced.

I know poor people who did this with driver's licenses in the 80's because at the time, Tennessee didn't require proof of insurance. They couldn't do it via the mail, though.

This was rather odious.. "Though the city is now required to comply with the rest of the state's standards, they conduct an additional interview and questionnaire and can decline someone's application based just on their character and reputation."

[eqfan592]

2. Sounds to me like...

...this is a problem with the permit system in PA (and specifically in Philly) and not a problem with Florida.

[spin]

3. Philadelphia is playing games to stop concealed carry...

Gun-rights advocates also say that Philadelphia police are going above and beyond in their screening and approval process for CCW applicants, forcing them to go elsewhere.

Though the city is now required to comply with the rest of the state's standards, they conduct an additional interview and questionnaire and can decline someone's application based just on their character and reputation.

Oliver said that he teaches the gun-safety courses for out-of-state permits about eight times a year, and that about 25 percent of his students are people who've been denied a Philadelphia permit.

"They mention that they've been denied a permit in Philadelphia for everything from parking tickets to child-support payments," he said. "You may not have a criminal record but you owe some tickets or child support and they deny you when the rest of the state doesn't.

"That's not to say I'm for the deadbeat dad, but if you're behind in your bills are you not allowed to protect yourself?"

Christie Caywood, a member of the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association, who spoke on the organization's behalf, said that Philadelphia's practice of revoking licenses of victims whose guns have been stolen, and the department's high permit-revocation rate - 505 last year - send residents to other states.

"It is not surprising that some gun owners may opt for more uniform standards of another state license over the discriminatory abuses of the Philadelphia Police Department," she said.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20100205_Can_t_get_a_gun_here__No_problem__Florida_will_issue_permit__and_local_police_must_honor_it__Phila__authorities_are_irate.html?page=3&c=y

[RamboLiberal]

4. Agree - here's shit Philly pulls

Along with the application, two independent, nonrelative references are required to fill out a form of their own on your behalf, in which they are asked such questions as, "In your opinion and if it was your choice, would YOU grant the applicant a permit to carry a concealed firearm?" and "Is the applicant a habitual drunkard?"

The application, reference forms, two passport-type photos, a valid identification card, two forms of proof of residence and, if you were a member of the Armed Forces, a copy of your discharge papers, must be delivered in person to the Gun Permit Unit.

All applicants are then fingerprinted and interviewed by a police officer or a detective in the Gun Permit Unit.

State police then conduct a Pennsylvania Instant Check (PIC), which is similar to the background checks run when an individual purchases a gun.

If that background check is cleared, city police then conduct their own investigation on an applicant.

If approved, applicants are notified by mail and must pick up their license within 30 days of notification.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20100205_How_to_get_a_permit_in_the_city.html

State legislature should step in and overrule this crap.

Rest of state it's basically go to Sheriff's office (some even have apps online), fill out the application then a few weeks later they send you a card if you are approved.

[spin]

5. I smell racism ...

It would be interesting to see how many licenses from minority applicants are rejected.

But I bet the rich and the influential get their permits approved.

The roots of gun control are racist.

[Glassunion]

10. Some counties in PA are quicker than others

Depending on how advanced their systems are to run the required background checks.

My boss lives in Lehigh County, and it took him about 3 or so weeks to get his permit. I live in Bucks and the process took about 15 minutes. I already had the paperwork filled out when I walked in. So a deputy ran the checks on me, took my cash for the permit, took my picture, and the machine spit out my permit.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

6. Now THIS is a gun loophole! Bravo Florida! :D n/t

[pipoman]

7. I'll bet that the good mayor, police chief, and sheriff's

friends and political donors don't have much difficulty getting their permits...just a guess...might make a good assignment for a good investigative journalist.

[benEzra]

8. Florida's standards are STRICTER than Pennsylvania's, AFAIK...

Meaning, if Philly police are arbitrarily denying or revoking permits of people who can qualify for FL nonresident permits, then the Philly police are probably giving the finger to PA state law.

[SteveM]

9. Ah, yes, "Character and reputation." Jump! Jim Crow, jump!...nt

[burrfoot]

11. The impression from the article, anyway,

is that this is Philly in particular being douchebags about it. If these people lived in any other county they'd be able to get a Pennsylvania permit- so it's not really that Florida is "piercing the veil of Pennsylvania sovereignity" so much as it is that the authorities in Philly are taking it upon themselves to go above and beyond Pennsylvania's own laws.

And yes, the rules for permitting in Florida are stricter than the rules for permitting in (the rest of) Pennsylvania- specifically because you need to pass both a written and practical firing examination in Florida, whereas in Pennsylvania you just gather your documents and two passport sized photos, and send them in.

So people taking advantage of the "Florida Loophole" are actually submitting to more stringent requirements than Pennsylvania residents.

Now, there are a couple of potential issues- it doesn't seem like the states communicate too well (i.e. if you are d/q'd in Penn. that information may not make it to FL in time for them to find out about it when they check you).

That kind of problem is procedural though, not implicit in the idea of reciprocity. If they don't want to deal with improving communication, they should cancel their reciprocity agreement. (Although being a FL CCW holder I sure hope they don't :evilgrin:)

[Euromutt]

12. There's a few examples of tendentious (and false) wording in the article

Exhibit A: the headline.

Can't get a gun here? No problem: Florida will issue permit, and local police must honor it.

Should read "Can't get a concealed carry permit here?" As the article a few paragraphs down quotes firearms instructor Richard Oliver as saying, "you can purchase a firearm but you can't get a permit in Philadelphia to save your life."

Exhibit B: the first sentence.

IMAGINE HAVING YOUR driver's license revoked in Pennsylvania but then being able to get one in Florida - through the mail - that must then be honored here.

First off, being refused a license/permit is not the same as having it revoked. For starters, revocation of a license typically requires a court order; it is not left to the discretion of the executive. Moreover, the executive branch of government doesn't get to refuse you a driver's license on the basis of "arrest history or one's character and reputation."

The failure to distinguish between "denial" and "revocation" recurs throughout this article, by the way.

Second, the parenthetical phrase "through the mail" suggests that all you have to do to get a Florida CWP is fill out a form, mail it in, and the Florida authorities will mail you your non-resident permit, no questions asked. In actual fact, you need to submit a fingerprint card or have your prints electronically scanned by a law enforcement agency, a certificate that you have successfully completed a firearms course by a state-certified instructor, and the Florida state authorities will have the FBI run a background check on you.

Okay, leaving the shortcomings of the journalist behind, let's turn to the spokespeople from the Philly PD and DA's office.

"They could be disapproved here and they could apply in Florida and we are not notified," said Philadelphia Police Lt. Lisa King, commander of the Gun Permit Unit. "So if we are not giving them a permit to carry, how is Florida allowed to override our decision?"

District Attorney Seth Williams said that the loophole defeats local efforts to keep streets safe.

"We should not allow Florida to pierce the veil of sovereignty of Pennsylvania," he said. "This is something I'm going to direct my legislation unit to look into. This is a loophole I think it would be best to close."

"The veil of sovereignty"? I got news for you, Seth: Pennsylvania ceased to be a sovereign state when it ratified the Constitution and became part of a federal republic. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania doesn't get to refuse to acknowledge marriage or birth certificates issued by another state, nor drivers' licenses, etc. Admittedly, the Commonwealth has more discretion when it comes concealed carry permits, but the decision to recognize non-resident permits from other states was made by the Pennsylvania legislature. Hence, memo to Lt. King: it's not Florida that's overriding your decision, it's your own state legislature.

Insofar as there is a genuine safety concern, Pennsylvania could always choose not recognize non-resident permits from other states. Given that Florida itself does this, that doesn't seem unreasonable. But first, the Philadelphia authorities need to stop abusing their power.

"If somebody has been arrested a dozen times and the cases have just been dismissed or discharged, that doesn't mean the crime didn't happen," <Lt. King> said.

Fuck you, lieutenant. Ever hear of "presumption of innocence"? If you couldn't prove the guy did it, then as far as law is concerned, he didn't do it. That kind of attitude reaffirms why we have separation of powers in this country, and (with all due respect to the members of the law enforcement community who frequent this board) we don't let the cops decide who's innocent or guilty. It's also a good reason why we shouldn't leave any licensing requirement to the discretion of the executive branch of government.