Starbucks Gun Debate Arrives In Seattle

[rsmith6621]

SEATTLE, Wash. -- The National Brady Campaign will deliver an anti-gun petition to Starbucks headquarters Wednesday morning.

The group has been asking Seattle-based Starbucks to ban guns in its stores.

Starbucks has ignored the request, saying it will abide by laws allowing customers to openly carry unloaded weapons.

The Brady Campaign said it chose Starbucks as a target because members of the pro-gun activist group, OpenCarry.org often meet at Starbucks to exercise their right to carry unconcealed guns.

Similar controversy caused Peet's Coffee & Tea to ban firearms in its stores.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/22726111/detail.html

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

1. Even Starbucks is ignoring the Brady Campaign,

Brady, your 15mins of fame are over.
... Actually it's more like 20 yrs, but whatever. Good riddence.

[quiller4]

25. I'm glad Starbucks is ignoring Brady.m Looks like I'll stop at Starbucks today.

I cut up my Peets card after they caved.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

3. I like Peets even more. Nt

[Robb]

14. Me too.

Sadly usually too expensive out here in the middle of the country. Used to walk to Peet's when I lived in Berkeley.

Were you aware one of the founders of Starbucks was a roaster for Peet's in the beginning?

Starbucks' "Italian Roast" is their best effort at mimicking Peet's house blend. Close, but no cigar IMO.

[xchrom]

45. Thanks I didn't know that. A little American coffee roasting history.

Very cool.

[X_Digger]

4. I wonder if starbucks will print out the 50,000 emails they received thanking them..

(Totally bogus number, but way more than the 28k "signatures" the brady group gathered.)


Those against brady's petition called corporate, thanked their local managers, sent hand written letters, and sent emails, rather than clicking "I agree!" on an electronic petition.

[liberal_at_heart]

5. I'm not sure you can stop people from carrying guns however

I do think that the people who carry unconcealed guns in public are immature bullies who just want to intimidate people.

[slackmaster]

8. They're really doing it for political purposes

It's a form of protest. Civil disobedience without actually disobeying any laws, only peoples' expectations.

It's legal in my state, but I don't do it because it does frighten people and create a "scene". I don't like scenes.

[liberal_at_heart]

13. How do these same people feel about young adults with baggy pants and bandannas

carrying guns? Would that be as acceptable? I highly doubt it.

[slackmaster]

15. I assume you mean young adults with baggy pants and bandanas, who are carrying guns

I'm sure the Brady Campaign would be happy to see them banned from Starbucks.

Gun control has deep roots in racism.

[liberal_at_heart]

17. my question is would the people who support carrying unconcealed weapon in public

support young adults wearing babby pants and bandana carrying guns as well?

[slackmaster]

19. That's kind of astray from the topic, but the ones I know personally wouldn't have a problem with it

What are you trying to do here, tar gun owners as racist?

(cue sound of crickets chirping)

[liberal_at_heart]

20. Well I'm glad the ones you know wouldn't have a problem with it

Look at the images we are shown of The Black Panthers during the Civil Rights movement. They were not portrayed as patriots. They were branded trouble makers and thugs.

[slackmaster]

28. Which demonstrates that "troublemaker" vs "peaceful protester" can depend on one's point of view

It always helps to at least make an effort to see issues from a side you believe you disagree with.

You might be surprised how often it turns out you really have a lot in common with those you had assumed to be your enemies.

[liberal_at_heart]

31. I'm glad to see you are so open minded and don't mind if black people carry guns

Personally I still think that anyone who carries an unconcealed weapon is just trying to initimidate people but I am glad to hear you would be okay with black people carrying guns.

[SteveM]

59. And one Ronald Reagan passed gun-control laws as a result of Panther actions.

Even though what the Panthers did (carry guns into the capitol buildings) was legal at the time. The font, the very blueprints of gun-control are racist, dating back to Colonial times.

Jim Crow caught the last freight north, and set up shop there.

[Winterblues]

22. Why do you keep inserting racism the discussion?

Nobody but you has brought up anything about race. I guess to you a kid wearing baggy pants and a bandanna has to be a black person. A white kid would never dress in such a manner...:crazy:

[Missy Vixen]

24. It's a distraction from the subject at hand

After all, it's the Gungeon's best debate tactic.

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

27. "baggy pants" is code language for African-Americans

Obviously. liberal_at_heart attempted to play the Race Card here.

[Statistical]

34. If it was holstered properly I wouldn't have a problem.

Never seen a headbanger wear a holster.

Now if it is some dangerous and stupid stunt like shoving it down their pants, or showing it off to their friends in public then Police should be called however that would apply to anyone regardless of how tight their pants are (or are not).

[PavePusher]

43. If they are carrying in a proper holster, well secured...

and not "flaunting" or purposely drawing attention to it, no problem.

If it's precariously wedged into their belt (which generally is defined as concealed), and they are pointing to it, and demonstrating other unsafe and rude behavior, yes, problem.

The firearm itself is not the problem, but you knew that already.

[GreenStormCloud]

48. A person can't choose their ancestory, but they can choose their clothes.

The style of clothing you wear is a deliberate message that you send to the people who see you. If a person dresses of the thug-culture, he is saying that he agrees with the values of the thug-culture. I will go on alert anytime I see such a person, and doubly so if he is openly armed. That person can be of any race, it doesn't matter.

I a person is dressed in a manner that does not advertise a violent sub-culture, then I will be more relaxed, regardless of race.

BTW - I happen to know some black people who legally carry concealed.

I also know a few black women who illegally carry concealed but for self-protection. They can't afford to get the permit. But the reason I happen to know that is that the place where I work employs numerous black women, and is in a high-crime area. We have sometimes talked about the crime problem.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. Depends on whether they are over 21 or not.

Because if they aren't, law broken right there.

I would think nothing of a person with baggy pants, a bandanna and a holstered weapon.
Shoved in a waistband, hmmm.. Not so much.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

29. You must get around a lot

Do you have pictures?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

37. hey! that's my line!

:rofl: :hi:

[slackmaster]

40. I just borrowed it for a moment. You may use any of mine at any time.

Thanks!

[SteveM]

58. Yours is a deeply-rooted prejudice, not founded in logic...

"I do think that the people who carry unconcealed guns in public are immature bullies who just want to intimidate people."

The measure of "intimidation" is recorded confrontation and law-breaking. What data is available indicates that the crime rates of concealed-carry permit holders is a very small fraction of those rates of the public at-large. Of course, "intimidation" could mean day-to-day behavior outside of the law, but frankly, how can this be done when one conceals his/her gun?

Your stereotype "immature bullies" is merely standard prejudice.

Respectfully, I would suggest the term "bully" is miss-used in the political context. It suggests that a stronger force has abused convention, law and morality to forcibly get its way, when in fact what has occurred is one side has been beaten politically and above-board. In the latter instance, when one then complains about being "bullied," then that complainer will be viewed as weak, spiteful and not worthy of leadership position. I do wish Democrats would junk the term.

[951-Riverside]

6. Hurry up an get your comments in before this is moved to the Gungeon

:eyes:

[HillbillyBob]

7. We own guns, but I m not so immature to 'threaten' everyone

by carrying openly, nor do I see any reason to spend 6$ on a cup of coffee some place that pays minimum wage when I can make coffee at home and no one will comment on my paunchy nekidness.
Brady a hate group?! hahhaha yea tell that to the paralyzed Mr Brady who was injured when whats is name tried to off RunnyRaygun..too bad he missed.

[PavePusher]

44. How is open carry "threatening everyone"? n/t

[PavePusher]

66. And again, the deafening of the crickets. n/t

[katmondoo]

9. I wouldn't think of depriving anyone of their rights, I

just won't ever again go to Starbucks

[-..__...]

10. I'm almost looking at this like it's good news...

it demonstrates just how desperate, meaningless and ineffective the Bradys and the gun control movement has become.

Obama has told them to fuck-off...

The US Congress has told them to fuck-off...

The courts have told them to fuck-off...

and the best they can come up with is trying to intimidate a coffee chain into posting a "no guns" policy and even they're telling them to fuck-off.

:rofl:

[pnorman]

11. Starbucks is where I drink coffee, but only if I can't find a better place close by.

But if an "open carry" fanatic sat down beside me, I'd do what I'd do had he been wearing a hat festooned with dangling teabags. I'd get up and look for another place to enjoy a cup of coffee. Distance no object; life is too short.

[arcadian]

12. Starbucks and guns?!?!

Oh this is going to be a fun thread. :popcorn:

[cowman]

38. I go armed

all the time in our local Starbucks which is inside the Albertson's grocery store and they have no problem, why should you?

[marmar]

16. Patronize Peets instead of Charbucks - their overroasted dirt water sucks anyway

Peets Coffee, CPK Both Post Polices Against Open Carry


If you're looking for a Thai Chicken Pizza or a Peet's Espresso, you're gonna have to check your iron at the door. Outlets of both Peet's Coffee and California Pizza Kitchen have posted policies prohibiting customers from carrying firearms in their establishments, unless they're cops.

Peet's defined their policy like this:

While Peet's Coffee & Tea respects and values all individuals' rights under local, state and federal laws, our policy is not to allow customers carrying firearms in our stores or on our outdoor seating premises unless they are uniformed or identified law enforcement officers. Like most other private businesses, particularly retail establishments, we believe this policy is in the best interests of all of our customers, regardless of their personal beliefs. In no way does this policy conflict with or discriminate under the law, and it does not take a position on the law.

http://californiacitynews.typepad.com/californiacitynewsorg/2010/01/peets-coffee-cpk-both-post-polices-against-open-carry.html

[slackmaster]

18. I avoid all chain coffee shops

There are some very good privately owned ones near where I live. I'll go to a chain place only if I'm in a hurry.

Here's the one closest to my home:

http://www.rebeccascoffeehouse.com/

They buy most of their beans from local roasters. They sell a lot of free-trade coffee. Rebecca, the proprietor, provides jobs for several nice young people. Her scones are legendary.

Everybody Must Get Sconed!

[quiller4]

26. I don't like Peets coffee but even if I did their guns policy would

keep me from walking through the door. That is why I'll stick with Starbucks and Forza.

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. I avoided the Peets in Wellesley, Massachusetts for another reason:

All the snotbag, quietly homophobic, ex-Wendy Wellesleys and their husbands used to go there to avoid
the Starbucks just down the street. It was and is quite the GLBT hangout and I suppose just too, too common
for them.

That, and they would like to forget their LUG days! *snork*

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

35. I carried in a CPK about a month ago.

We were out and about the car was too far away to walk back and stow the firearm.
I asked my wife if she really wanted to eat at commifornia pizza kitchen... but she insisted.
It stayed in my pocket the whole time. No one was killed or maimed!
It's liek they didn't even know I had a concealed weapon!

[proteus_lives]

23. To hell with the Brady Bunch!

They're Republican stooges!

[slackmaster]

30. Brady Campaign's methods are similar to those used by the Catholic Church and anti-abortion groups

The Catholic Church wants to keep same-sex marriage illegal. They don't want gay and lesbian people to be able to choose to marry their partners. They and anti-abortion people, some of whom are rabidly anti-catholic, want to take away reproductive choices.

Unable to get laws they want imposed on the people, they use intimidation tactics to try to pressure businesses and elected leaders into doing things their way. They've lost at the ballot box, they're losing in the courts, so they take to the streets to demonize those who disagree with them. The only real difference is that the Catholic Church has deep pockets, so they can still buy elections. Just barely.

What will they try next?

[Gin]

32. openly carrying "unloaded" guns? are they like jewelry? the new fad in

accessories?

[slackmaster]

33. Carrying a weapon is an enumerated civil right

Contrary to what the prohibitionists will tell you.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

36. While the weapon is physically unloaded...

It would take only about 2-3 seconds to stick in a magzine and rack the slide.

[shadowrider]

42. You're right

It wouldn't take them long at all to "gear up" (statement used in NCIS) should a troublemaker come through the door.

[Jackson1999]

39. Look how far Brady has fallen

It was not too long ago that they were championing federal legislation. Now they are reduced to spending their resources going for one-offs in a desperate grasp for relevancy.

[slackmaster]

41. To paraphrase someone else, the Brady Bunch is having their Cousin Oliver moment

[Statistical]

46. I love it. Keep digging your own grave Brady.

Support for new gun control legislation is at a 20 year low. Hope the public starts seeing just how desperate the Brady bunch is.

[-..__...]

47. Feer the Bradys...

not even a pop diva is safe from their wrath and outrage...

:scared:

Not “Gaga” About The Guns

Almost 9 million YouTube viewers have seen Beyoncé and Lady Gaga – scheduled to perform on the Grammy Awards this Sunday – in their recent music video, “Video Phone.”

The music was fine, but I wonder why they went out of their way to glorify guns in their production. Beyond the sexual stereotype of guns in general, it’s hard to understand why they are in the video at all.

What’s more, Lady Gaga has been using fake machine guns as props in her live shows as well, pretending to shoot into the crowd.

Finally, rapper Dwayne “Lil Wayne” Carter was also announced yesterday as a Grammy Award show performer, just months after he pleaded guilty to a gun charge. He is scheduled to be sentenced in February and is expected to serve as much as a year in jail.

I can hear people say, “Hey, it’s just show business,” and that Beyoncé, Lady Gaga and Lil Wayne each put on a good show. I understand that.

Yet it is difficult to deny the influence that these entertainers have on our popular culture and the young people who absorb it. Guns aren’t toys, even when they’re made with pretty colors or sung about in rap songs, and it is dangerous to treat them that way.

http://blog.bradycampaign.org/?p=1685

[Walk away]

60. What a horrible thing to say. You do realize that James Brady was...

shot in the line of duty protecting a President of the United States?

"I love it. Keep digging your own grave Brady.
Posted by Statistical"


I don't expect much from the gun forum but this is just nasty. Every day more people become less isolated and the country becomes less rural. Eventually we will evolve and leave guns behind. Just like the republicans the pro-gun groups use fear, mis-information, anger, classism and racism in any combination they can, to push their agenda. It may work for a while but Americans usually figure things out.

Enjoy your temporary success and continue to show what kind of people you really are by expressing yourself without thinking.

[X_Digger]

61. "shot in the line of duty protecting a President " ?? Really?

And here I thought he was Reagan's press secretary, not secret service.

[GreenStormCloud]

62. James Brady was NOT defending Reagan.

He was with him, talking to him, but not defending him. Hinckly started shooting, spray-fire fashion. His shots were not aimed but were just sprayed out. Brady happened to catch one, as did Reagan.

Hinckly hit Brady, one complete miss, one policeman, one Secret Service officer, another complete miss, and the last bullet missed but ricocheted off the limo to hit Reagan.

[armueller2001]

65. Were his shots "spray fired from the hip"?

He must have had an "assault weapon"

[cowman]

64. He's not

talking about Brady personally, he is talking about the Brady Org. they have become irrelevant and are going to be put to bed for good and good riddance. If you don't like the posts, go to a different forum

[Euromutt]

67. Who says we're talking about *James* Brady?

The one who's actually active in the campaign is his wife Sarah, who has, to the best of my knowledge, never been shot. She's happy to wheel James out in his wheelchair at every photo opportunity, fuck knows how he feels about it.

And as has been pointed out by other posters, James Brady was Reagan's press secretary; he wasn't shot "in the line of duty" and he wasn't protecting Reagan. He just happened to be in the place to catch a stray round that was intended for Reagan.

Just like the republicans the pro-gun groups use fear, mis-information, anger, classism and racism in any combination they can, to push their agenda.

Considering the leadership of the Brady Campaign are, for all practical purposes, Republican (Paul Helmke was mayor of Fort Wayne, IN as a Republican; Sarah Brady was a registered Republican before she broke with the party on the issue of gun control, and only gun control) and they use all the tactics you list above, I think in your sentence, "pro-gun" should read "pro-gun control."

[RamboLiberal]

49. Starbucks Sticks to Its Guns on Firearms

(AP) Coffee chain Starbucks Corp. is sticking to its policy of letting customers carry guns where it's legal and said it does not want to be put in the middle of a larger gun-control debate.

The company's statement, issued Wednesday, stems from recent campaign by some gun owners, who have walked into Starbucks and other businesses to test state laws that allow gun owners to carry weapons openly in public places. Gun control advocates have protested.

The fight began heating up in January in Northern California and has since spread to other states and other companies, bolstered by the pro-gun group OpenCarry.org.

Some of the events were spontaneous, with just one or two gun owners walking into a store. Others were organized parades of dozens of gun owners walking into restaurants with their firearms proudly at their sides.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/03/national/main6263365.shtml?tag=stack

Mar 03, 2010
Starbucks Position on Open Carry Gun Laws
SEATTLE, March 03, 2010 - We recognize that there is significant and genuine passion surrounding the issue of open carry weapons laws. Advocacy groups from both sides of this issue have chosen to use Starbucks as a way to draw attention to their positions.

While we deeply respect the views of all our customers, Starbucks long-standing approach to this issue remains unchanged. We comply with local laws and statutes in all the communities we serve. In this case, 43 of the 50 U.S. states have open carry weapon laws. Where these laws don’t exist, we comply with laws that prohibit the open carrying of weapons. The political, policy and legal debates around these issues belong in the legislatures and courts, not in our stores.

At the same time, we have a security protocol for any threatening situation that might occur in our stores. Partners are trained to call law enforcement as situations arise. We will continuously review our procedures to ensure the highest safety guidelines are in place and we will continue to work closely with law enforcement.

We have examined this issue through the lens of partner (employee) and customer safety. Were we to adopt a policy different from local laws allowing open carry, we would be forced to require our partners to ask law abiding customers to leave our stores, putting our partners in an unfair and potentially unsafe position.

As the public debate continues, we are asking all interested parties to refrain from putting Starbucks or our partners into the middle of this divisive issue. As a company, we are extremely sensitive to the issue of gun violence in our society. Our Starbucks family knows all too well the dangers that exist when guns are used irresponsibly and illegally. Without minimizing this unfortunate reality, we believe that supporting local laws is the right way for us to ensure a safe environment for both partners and customers.

http://starbucks.tekgroup.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=332

[-..__...]

51. Ohh look...

A poll! B-) (on the CBSnews link).

Should Starbucks let customers carry handguns in its stores located in states with open-carry laws?

Question Results

Yes: 74.47%

No: 25.53%

[X_Digger]

52. "Starbucks shares rose a penny to $23.34 in midday trading Wednesday. " n/t

[-..__...]

53. Hmmm, $23.34?

That's probably more than the Brady Campaign has in it's war chest.

[X_Digger]

54. I've been waiting for their next merger / name change..

.. when they go broke in the current incarnation.

[-..__...]

55. It was probably a wise move on their part...

to file an amici in support of neither side in the McDonald case.

By doing that they at least avoided getting too much egg on their faces and go down with Daleys sinking ship.

Having too many losses (especially in important situations), is never a good selling point when asking for donations.

[Statistical]

57. ZING!

The last 2 years or so has to be rough for the Brady Bunch.

AWB expires. Every attempt to revive it dies with not even partisan support.
4 more states add CCW "shall issue"
Increased reciprocity between states.
Amtrack required to allow checked firearms.
Hundreds of sensible state changes in favor or 2nd Amendment.
Heller v. DC
McDonald v. Chicago
Stabucks v. Brady Bunch
Public support for more gun control waning to 20 year low.


I mean the list just keeps going and going.

I expect a couple dozen more major achievements over next couple years.

[GreenStormCloud]

63. In fairness, the AWB expired in 2004.

Lots of anti-gun posters like to blame Bush, but with strong bipartisan nonsupport, the reauthorization bill never reached the floor of either house.

They took a bad hit in 2005 with the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arm Act. They really though they would be able to sue gun manufacturers out of existance. They did get Colt to surrender the civilian market.

And they have been moved to tear's by Obama's silencing of Holder and Clinton on guns.

At this rate, they may start having difficulty getting more Joyce Foundation checks.