Top police gun prone to accidental firing

[RamboLiberal]

Here's the kind of reporting that make knowledgeable and responsible gun owners NUTS! Note in the article almost all the shootings cited have nothing to do with the weapon being a Glock, but with dumbass gun handling. I.E. the first one about a police officer being accidentally being shot by another police officer cleaning his gun. Or the two idiot cops who apparently carried their Glock in their pants without a holster! And I was sorry to see Buzzflash carrying this as some kind of great expose of the gun industry.

BTW, I own two Glocks, shoot them competitively, am around many civilians who shoot them competitively and have never seen a problem on the range with them. But the many police are notorious for not handling them safely.

http://www.detnews.com/2003/specialreport/0312/15/a11-7995.htm

When police Officer Randall Smith was accidentally shot in the head by a fellow officer with a Glock semiautomatic pistol in 1995, he sued the gun maker, claiming the weapon was defectively designed and unnecessarily dangerous.

Glock settled the lawsuit. But for the rest of his life, Smith, whose injuries left him permanently brain damaged and cost him his police job in Birmingham, Ala., is barred from talking about the case or revealing any details he learned about Glock before the settlement. His lawyer also is barred from talking, restricted by a confidentiality agreement that is a standard policy for Glock when settling lawsuits.

Glock’s and other gun manufacturers’ insistence on confidentiality agreements is common in product liability settlements. The agreements have kept critical information about the safety record of the gun from the public and are a prime example of how the gun industry actively conceals information about injuries and fatalities connected with its products. The industry has done so with the help of Congress and the powerful National Rifle Association lobby.

Like other gun makers, Glock is not required to report complaints and injuries to any federal or state agency. And Glock cannot be compelled to inform gun buyers of problems others have had with its weapons.

[MrBenchley]

1. Too TOO funny...

"Here's the kind of reporting that make knowledgeable and responsible gun owners NUTS! "
Basically anything that tells the truth about guns seems to do the trick...

"Like other gun makers, Glock is not required to report complaints and injuries to any federal or state agency. And Glock cannot be compelled to inform gun buyers of problems others have had with its weapons. "
And of course, along with the rest of the corrupt gun industry, it needs the Republicans to engineer special immunity from liability...but not because it could be liable for anything, nosireee. It needs that immunity because of lawsuits by wild-eyed extremists...like the City of Chicago.

[demsrule4life]

13. One of the places I work at there is a sign under the mirror

in the restroom, "the person responsible for your safety."

[MrBenchley]

14. Wow....

I knew an idiot who actually thought OSHA was a bad thing, until he lost three fingers in a bandsaw without a safety guard.

[BullDozer]

29. GOP coup? I don't think so!

it needs the Republicans to engineer special immunity from liability.

Gee Benchly the house passed it's version of the bill 285-140 with the power balance being:
Republicans: 229
Democrats: 205
Independents: 1

That means some Democrats voted for H. R. 1036.

Now if we look at the Senate we will see that the bill S. 659: "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act was introduced by Sens. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) and Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and is cosponsored by Democrats Daschle, BREAUX, DORGAN, JOHNSON, LANDRIEU, LINCOLN, MILLER, Nelson (Nebraska), and Reed.

So it's just a GOP thing eh? Tell us a another fairy tale.

[Superfly]

2. Question...

even IF the weapon malfunction, why in the fuck was the other officer pointing it a a fellow police officer's head?

[Hrumph]

8. Obviously...

Because he was an untrained, irresponsible moron.

[Superfly]

9. Or, as TB says below...

he may have been "distracted"

[the_acid_one]

3. The only thing defective....

...was the other cop.

There is pretty much only one way to shoot someone in the head. Point a gun at them, pull the trigger.

Why was one officer pointing a pistol at the others head?

Sounds like a case of "hey, watch this".

[beevul]

4. From the article....

"But the gun maker’s Web site states the company’s philosophy that firearms safety is ultimately the responsibility of gun owners."

""Firearm safety is up to you, the end-user," Gaston Glock states in a message to customers on his company’s Web site. "The safe handling of firearms, like morality, cannot be legislated into existence. Only firearms users can make the safe use and storage of firearms a reality.""

"The gun has no manual safety to prevent it from firing if the trigger is accidentally pulled. In fact, the gun’s safety features — extremely effective in preventing discharges if the gun is dropped or hit — automatically are turned off every time the trigger is depressed."


Interesting. I myself prefer a safety, and am actually fond of the decocker/safety on the Beretta. I didn't fire my Beretta until I recieved and completely read the owners manual(ordered from Beretta at no charge, not even shipping). I wonder how many of the individuals mentioned in the article ever read the pertinent owners manual for the weapon they carried?(the ones that did the accidental shooting) Am I alone here? Am I the only one who reads owners manuals pertaining to things like guns, bread machines, home theater systems or automobiles?

I tend to lean towards agreeing that responsibility for safe and proper use/storage/handling/understanding of possessions whether they be dangerous or not, tends to fall into the hands of the user of said item- as civilians go.

In the case of police, there should be mandatory training for safe handling on a model specific basis, since it is employment related, IMO. I am certain there is training, but I wonder how good that training is.


On a happy note, I did the right thing and showed both my SO and our daughters how the safety/decocker work. I worked with them until they demonstrated they understood how it functions, how to properly clear it, and how to fire it. Haveing grown up in the time when females were reguarded as being less than men, it makes me verry proud to have a GF and 2 daughters that cast off that shadow, and can shoot, camp, be outdoorsy, and do all the things that were once "boy things".
And they can do them with the best of the guys too.:)

[MrSandman]

27. From the article

"The gun has no manual safety to prevent it from firing if the trigger is accidentally pulled. In fact, the gun’s safety features — extremely effective in preventing discharges if the gun is dropped or hit — automatically are turned off every time the trigger is depressed."


In over 30 years of gun handling...rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver, I have never had a trigger "accidentally" pulled. I have seen a couple of times a trigger was pulled without the weapon being pulled. The weapons were, thanks to safe gun handling, pointed in a safe direction at all times, i.e. NOT at someone's head!

[TreasonousBastard]

5. I know a few cops...

who don't like the Glock because you can accidentally fire the thing too easily. A number of departments give special training on its use, but there have still been problems.

While there are undoubtedly some some dumb cops out there, shooting on a range is not exactly comparable to a tense police situation.

I suspect many cops would be among the more "knowledgable and responsible" gun owners, and might even be a bit more knowledgable about the dangers of some firearms than amateurs would be.

[Superfly]

6. That's pretty funny

"I suspect many cops would be among the more "knowledgable and responsible" gun owners, and might even be a bit more knowledgable about the dangers of some firearms than amateurs would be."

---Yet, for all this knowledge and responsibility, this "trained" cop still shoots his partner in the head....

[TreasonousBastard]

7. We weren't there...

and have no idea what really went down.

It's entirely possible that the gun went off while unholstering, or that the cop was distracted and turned...

I'm one of the first people to scream when cops shoot, but passing judgment without the facts is still a no-no.

Fact remains that the Glock has no manual safety, and too many things can go wrong in a tense situation. All the training in the world can't guarantee an outcome in all situations. And, we don't know how well this cop was trained.

In this case, something did go wrong, and the gun very likely contributed to it.

As I said, I know cops who don't like it at all. You may want ready firepower, but you don't want a bomb in your hand when the adrenaline is working.

[the_acid_one]

10. In all fairness...

....most modern, decent quality guns will not go off unless the trigger is pulled. Some triggers may be to "light" for some users taste. But that doesnt make a pistol unsafe.

My guess is the cop either had his finger inside the triger guard (bad user habit) and accidently pulled the trigger. Or ejected the magazine, thought the pistol was empty, and pulled the trigger on purpose just out of dumbness.

The "fault" of the glock being a light trigger, or the lack of a "magazine safety".

Which of course, isnt glocks fault, and comes down to user preferance.

[Hrumph]

12. I'd bet a year's salary

that no such thing as "unholstering" made the gun discharge. As for the other excuse - being distracted - that just isn't an excuse at all. Pistols simply do not go off unless the trigger is depressed. Regardless of what this silly journalist may lead you to believe, the Glock is quite drop-safe. Only by pressing the trigger are the safety machanisms disengaged. Only by following the 4 CARDINAL rules of safe gun handling can negligent discharges be eliminated. Those rules are:
1) Keep your finger off the trigger.
2) Keep your finger off the damned trigger.
3) Keep your DAMNED finger off the trigger.
4) Keep your DAMNED finger off the DAMNED trigger!



The fact of the matter is that Glock has somewhere between 65% to 80% of the law enforcement market. The reason is simple - Glocks reduce AD's, thereby reducing administrative costs for the department. Glocks are certainly no less "safe" than a revolver and I don't hear anyone claiming that revolvers are defective in their design.

Personally, I want to be absolutely certain that when I press the trigger on my pistol that it perform it's primary function - THAT IT GO BANG! Can someone - ANYONE - tell me exactly which guns are safe to handle carlessly? For such an accident to occur, at least 2 things had to go wrong at the same time:
1) The operator had to press the trigger
2) The operator had to point the muzzle in an unsafe direction. ie, at his brother officer's head.

This is NOT a design issue. This is a training issue.

[RoeBear]

15. Oooh! OooH! Pick me!

"Can someone - ANYONE - tell me exactly which guns are safe to handle carlessly?"

This one?

[Hrumph]

16. Heh.. Cute (n/t)

.

[RoeBear]

17. Did you check to see...

...the URL that this came from?

No agenda my ass.

[MrSandman]

22. The Best Safety is Between Your Ears

1.Every gun is loaded

2.Never point a gun at anything you dot wish to DESTROY

3.Do not place your finger on the trigger until ready to shoot

4.Always be aware of your target AND what lies beyond.

I know of no fatal accidents where these universal rules were followed. Rifle, shotgun, or pistol. The Glock has no "manual" safety, but there is a trigger safety: the firing mechanism cannot be engaged if an independent lever on the trigger is not actuated. This is in addition to pulling the trigger. Many people prefer the deecocked position without a manual safety to the "cocked and locked" carry necessary with the 1911 style automatics.

I remember when we carrried revolvers...no manual safety...same firing action...SAME RULES Even a "slam fire" will cause no harm if these rukes are followed(see #2).

That being said, it is likely that police are injured in firearms accidents at a higher rate than the general population because they handle firearms at a much higher rate than the general population.

edited to add: Glock is also probably single most prevalent handgun issued by PD's...S

[Hrumph]

11. With a very few notable exceptions,..

The police I see at the range are among the most amiturish shooters I ever see. Their accuracy is almost non-existant and their gun handling skills are worse.

On numerous occasions, we (those I shoot with in matches) invite them to run a course or two with us. Most decline outright. Those that do give it a go are never heard from again.

Of course there are a few LEOs that shoot with us competitively a couple local guys and at least one air marshal, and they do OK, for the most part. (The air marshal, though, is kinda scary - not in a good way.)

[slackmaster]

31. Some of them are yahoos, that's for sure

I've seen a young member of one of the local municipal PDs firing .357 Magnum rounds through a very short, ultra-light revolver rated only at 38 Special +P. Talk about LOUD! That particilar PD has a reputation for recruiting new officers from the ranks of Latino gangs that infest their city.

But by and large I find most cops to be reasonable, responsible people. I have met a lot of them at my preferred indoor range. On a few occasions I've shot at the venerable San Diego Police Pistol Range. That's always a treat. The old range was built in the late 1930s. You go through a concrete-lined tunnel to maintain your targets, which are fixed at 25 yards. Only human silouette targets are allowed. If you want to meet cops, that's a great place to go.

[DoNotRefill]

18. Glocks are just like revolvers.

If it's loaded and you pull the trigger, the gun will fire.

Cops "accidentally" discharged revolvers "back in the day", too.

There are 3 safety rules for guns that should ALWAYS be followed:

Rule # 1 for ALL guns: Keep your finger off the trigger until you want to fire the gun.

Rule #2 for ALL guns: Never point a gun at something you don't want to shoot.

Sounds like the cop broke rules 1 AND 2...

[RamboLiberal]

19. I shoot something which could be called combat pistol competition

We shoot defensive scenarios, which means pulling from the holster, shooting on the move, shooting around obstacles, etc. Probably around half the guns or more are Glocks.

Glocks or any gun won't fire if you have your finger outside the trigger. So we're taught to always holster and draw with the finger outside the trigger. When moving if not engaging a target, again it's finger outside the trigger. And don't put that finger over the trigger until you have the sight picture.

I'd never carry a Glock without a good holster that covers the trigger. In fact the organization I shoot with makes it mandatory that all holsters cover the trigger. That way it's tough to get one's finger in to the trigger when drawing.

Look I have no problem with any product being under product liability laws. I don't agree with Congress and the NRA on this. But the product should be clearly be defective, not just defective cause some idiot misused it.

The examples in this article is what makes anyone who knows anything about firearms and the Glock nuts.

The first case sighted where the cop is shot by the roommate cleaning a gun in another room. The rule is when cleaning any gun - MAKE DOUBLE, TRIPLE, QUADRUPLE sure the weapon is unloaded and even put the ammo in another room, and even after that if you pull the trigger - point the dang thing in a safe direction!

I really like the next cop who was trying to put the gun under the seat to hide it from a Canadian custom's inspector. First, what he was doing was obviously illegal, and second it couldn't have happened if the Glock was in a good holster with the trigger covered.

Third incident of the 66 year-old Border Patrol agent and "marksman" who shoots himself adjusting his belt. Bet againt the gun wasn't in the holster and he was carrying in what is referred to as "Mexican carry". Most gun experts consider that "dumb".

As far as the other incidents where the cops didn't intend to shoot their guns - well that will happen with any gun. Cops were claiming that back in the days when they carried revolvers with big double action pulls. A safety wouldn't have helped in this case since the cop would've clicked it off when he pulled the gun. And if they had what is known as a DA/SA - double action first shot, single action second shot like I have on a Sigarms pistol - that 2nd trigger pull is even shorter and easier than my Glocks. So even easier to set off accidentally.

It's up to the departments to train their people. For cops it may be wise for their cops with Glocks to be equipped with the heavier pull New York trigger. Or go to another brand of semi-autos with double-action only triggers (though their accuracy may suffer and more innocent bystanders may die as a result).

And one reason many departments like the Glock is because some officers died when they forgot to click off the safety. Or it took then precious extra seconds and the criminal shot them. A good argument for a safety is if the criminal grabs the gun.

Same thing about if the gun can shoot with a magazine out. That's a good point if the mag falls out (and you'd be surprised how often that happens - either it's not put in tight on a reload or the mag release is accidentally hit) and you need to make that shot with that bullet. Or it can be a bad point if you're wrestling the criminal for the gun and you can disarm the pistol by dropping the mag.

Arguments can be made either way.

And as for "Glock leg" - be damn aware you have a loaded gun in your hand when holstering and make sure that finger or anything else doesn't get near that trigger. It's just like any dangerous tool - you can't let your guard down for a second.

I just thought this was a poorly written article written by a writer who knew little about handguns. Too often the media falls in to this trap with firearms.

[the_acid_one]

20. Hey..thats slick...

Or it can be a bad point if the you're wrestling the criminal for the gun and you can disarm the pistol by dropping the mag

Pretty clever idea there. I personally wouldnt want a magazine safety. But that is still a neat idea.

[RamboLiberal]

21. Reading the whole series

They did make some good points about unsafe guns. No gun should discharge when dropped, and or without the trigger being pulled. I do blame the Repugs and the NRA for preventing unsafe guns from recalls done on all other consumer products.

I also blame TV and movies a bit for putting out a lot of fallacies about firearms, especially semi-auto pistols that lead kids and adults to believe if there is no magazine in the pistol, then the gun is unloaded. How many times do you see cops and criminals on TV rack the slide when they pull the gun to load it just for that cool sound? I was reading a book that followed the cases of a LA Homicide squad and they commented how many times they find an unfired round on the ground cause the idiots rack the slide just like they see on TV.

I'd be for bringing in a firearms safety person to train kids at different grade levels about gun safety. Reading a lot of these cases I think kids and adults get this attitude that they know about guns from TV and the movies so they know how to handle a gun.

I don't know if there would be a way to take the glamour out of guns for kids and teens.

[aztx55]

23. No recalls?

I do blame the Repugs and the NRA for preventing unsafe guns from recalls done on all other consumer products.

You mean like this...

http://www.gssfonline.com/hot_topics/framerails.htm

GLOCK Frame Rails - The Real Scoop!

The GLOCK Corporation has identified an issue with a very small percentage of GLOCK pistols produced between September of 2001 and May of 2002. The specific issue that has been identified is the potential of breaking a rear frame rail in pistols manufactured during this time period. Within the specific range the breakage rate has been less than 0.0188%. So, while the actual percentage of rails reported broken is within any accepted manufacturing tolerance, it is not an acceptable situation to the GLOCK Corporation. It is also important to note that under most conditions GLOCK pistols will continue to function with three rails. A routine maintenance check after each time the pistol has been taken out and used would immediately indicate if there is a problem.

We are, therefore, concerned that a limited number of customers will not get the product we have promised them and what we have always delivered, the very best pistol on the market, in short, a GLOCK.

For these reasons, we have made the decision that in the interest of customer service, replacement frames will be offered to anyone who has a firearm in this range and decides to take advantage of this offer. The replacement frames will have identical serial numbers to our customer's original firearm except the numeral 1 will be added as a prefix. If you believe your firearm is within this range, please call 1-866-225-4098 to take advantage of the ultimate in customer service.

Nothing less than the best for our customers is acceptable to GLOCK and, as always, we will continue to work towards Perfection.

[demsrule4life]

24. Don't you know that the corrupt gun industry

never does recalls since the industry loves unsafe guns in the hands of paranoid fantasy laden gun nuts?

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/Firearm%20Recall%20Index.htm

[the_acid_one]

25. Well...some people dont recognize...

....that firearms manufacturers ussually live and die by the reliabilty of their products. if a paticular gun has a history of malfunctions, word will get around and sales will drop dramatically.

Gun owners are touchy types...seems they like guns that actually go bang when they're supposed to.

[slackmaster]

30. It's even shallower than that, I'm afraid

Some people are willing to take a couple of anecdotes and use them to tar a whole industry as being unwilling to recall unsafe products, when all one has to do to contradict the argument is to type "<product type> recalls" into Google to find dozens of counterexamples.

Or to go to a specific manufacturer's Web site, e.g.: http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/S-Announcements.html

Of course we are talking about the "type" of person who consistently denies that Sturm, Ruger & Co. has ever recalled "Old Model" (pre-1973) Single Six, Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, or Bearcat Revolvers, when that is surely the most widely publicized firearm product recall in history, having been announced in every issue of every major gun magazine for over 20 years - http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/PDF/safety_offer_ad.pdf - And remains in effect indefinitely.

Yeah, that whole gun industry sure is corrupt when it comes to recalling defective products.

:eyes:

[MrSandman]

26. One of the exceptions to Protection of Lawful Commerce....

(v) an action for physical injuries or property damage resulting directly from a defect in design or manufacture of the product, when used as intended.


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query

[DoNotRefill]

28. Ummm...glocks aren't defective.

they're designed to fire when the trigger is pulled. Some moron pulling the trigger when he's not supposed to is operator error, not a design flaw.

[MrSandman]

33. My reply was to This part of the post:

"Look I have no problem with any product being under product liability laws. I don't agree with Congress and the NRA on this."

It implies that legislation would exempt guns from product liability. I only quoted the pertinient part of S.659.

[MrSandman]

32. Now they are sending poorly designed guns to Iraq...

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2486153&C=mideast

Single-Source Deal Irks U.S. Firms
By WILLIAM MATTHEWS

U.S. gun companies and their representatives in Congress are firing questions at the Pentagon and State Department over a decision to arm Iraqi police and defense forces with European-made handguns.

The Coalition Provisional Authority ordered 50,000 handguns from Austrian gun-maker Glock without giving U.S. gun manufacturers an opportunity to bid for the contract, according to Rep. Jeb Bradley, R-N.H.

(With no bids.)

[TROUBLE_MAKER]

34. Premature ejaculation

You think this officer still has her job?




http://www.wohlers.org/humor/negligence.mpeg

This female officer is holding a pistol as her partner cuffs a guy on the ground. The female officer fires a round and it appears to barely miss her fellow officer and the suspect.

[the_acid_one]

35. Probably not.

BTW, before anyone gets any idea's I am fairly certain that that officer is using a Beretta 92F and NOT a glock.

Someone on another board pointed out that they're pretty sure they can see the hammer draw back, which means that this shot had the LONG, HEAVY double action trigger pull to go with it. Talk about a whoopsie...and no, I dont think she kept her job ;)

[MrSandman]

36. What was the P***** Factor"

of her partner?

12 on a 10pt scale?