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Criminals are armed because they have to defend themselves against their victims.

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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 04:37 PM
Original message
Criminals are armed because they have to defend themselves against their victims.
That is the considered wisdom of Dr. David Hemenway, intelectual guru of the gun-control movement. To be fair to Dr. Hemenway, here is the entire statement from page 77 of his book, Private Guns, Public Health

Self-defense gun use is a somewhat nebulous concept. Criminals, for example, often claim that they carry gun for protection and use them during crimes in self-defense because they feel threatened by the victim.


So we, the victims, are the bad guys? We are the one threatening the poor misunderstood, persecuted, violent felons? If we could just be disarmed, then the criminals would lay down their guns? Even if the criminals did, they would use other weapons, knives or clubs, and those of us victims who aren't physically able to fight back would become prey. But then again, Hemenway does not agree with resiting criminals. Fighting back makes us bad victims that the poor hard working criminals must protect himself against us.

I will post a more complete review of his chapter on armed self-defense later, likely tomorrow, but that kind of twaddle is the heart of it.
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Grand Taurean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. He needs help.
I support the 2nd amendment.
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. If that's the best
the gun control movement, or should I say non-movement, has, then we are in great shape, What a complete moron. No wonder no one takes them seriously
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. He is one of their leaders.
In the thread about the increase of CCWer permit holder hitting record numbers. He gets interviewed by MSNBC.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34714389/ns/us_news-life/

But Dr. David Hemenway, Ph.D., a Harvard professor of public health who has studied gun violence for years, said that when it comes to concealed-carry laws, neither side can make a legitimate claim about their effects on crime.

Hemenway said that the most definitive review to date — a 2004 look at research on the topic by the National Research Council — “found no credible evidence that passage of right-to-carry laws increases or decreases violent crime.”


He is referenced several more times in the article. He claims that the decline in gun death rates has nothing to do with concealed carry, because crime was declining at the same time.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. "She deserved it; look at that bikini...." nt
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. or, in context
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I don't see any change in the meaning. N/T
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. nebulous=vague, it's sarcasm
The self defense arguments for gun ownership are so over-used that even criminals use it. That's what that sentence means, in context with the rest of the chapter.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. So you agree that he believes we should not defend ourselves against criminals. N/T
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I don't see where he said that
Could you provide some other source besides that sentence that says people shouldn't defend themselves?

My 4 year old grandson often says he's starving when begging for a cookie. That's a nebulous excuse for a cookie, but that doesn't mean I'm saying a starving man shouldn't get a cookie to eat, or maybe even something more beneficial to his need.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Who says criminals can't legitimately defend themselves?
We know not only that a large percentage of criminal homicides are committed with a prior felony conviction, but that a sizable percentage of the victims have criminal records as well. Organized criminals kill competitors, and the most common target for "home invasions" are dwellings which the invaders believe to contain drugs and/or the proceeds their sale. If the target of an attempted hit or home invasion defends himself (and possibly also his loved ones), that's a legitimate act of self-defense. What makes a defensive gun use (DGU) illegal in such a context is if the defending arty possesses the firearm illegally, which is very likely.

Studies like Kleck & Gertz's 1993 "National Self-Defense Survey" (http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm) have undoubtedly counted "illegal DGUs," in the sense that the respondent was illegally in possession of a firearm at the time of the incident. Note that in 1993, far fewer states had adopted "shall issue" laws, making CCW permits difficult to impossible to acquire even for citizens with perfectly clean backgrounds; thus, many of such DGUs would be legal now, seventeen years later. Some of the respondents were very possibly prohibited from possessing a firearm at all. Nevertheless, those studies were designed to exclude responses that did not meet certain criteria for legitimate self-defense, one of which being that the the respondent had to be able to articulate (in some detail) the offense that he thought was being attempted against him (e.g. assault, robbery, confrontational burglary, homicide).

By making reference to studies like the Kleck-Gertz one immediately after his talk about self-defense using firearms being a "nebulous concept," Hemenway falsely suggests that the estimates produced by such studies include cases of criminals claiming that their use of a firearm in the commission of a crime was self-defense.

Interestingly, Hemenway himself (in collaboration with Deborah Azreal) published a study in 1999 which included the results of two telephone surveys of their own, conducted in 1994, which yielded an estimate of 900,000 DGUs annually--close to the number of incidents of violent crimes committed with firearms that year (~1,076,000). Somewhat predictably, Hemenway and Azreal spent the rest of the article trying to hand-wave away their own findings, but it does not speak well of their ability as researchers if they could not even compile a survey questionnaire that would exclude such instances.

So either Hemenway is an incompetent researcher (in which case one must take any critique on his part of others' research as being of dubious value), or, when he claims that "gun use in self-defense is rare," he uses a very unusual and selective definition of "rare," by which 900,000 DGUs in a year is "rare" but 18,765 firearm suicides in that same year is not "rare."

Hemenway shows remarkable persistence in arguing why research data yielding estimates of 900,000-2.5 million DGUs a year must be flawed, but in over 15 years of doing so, he has produced only speculation; what he has not produced is better research providing hard empirical evidence proving material like the Kleck-Gertz study to be wrong.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. Recommend
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. What the hell is Hemenway a "doctor" of?
Dipshits and dipshit theory?
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. His Ph.D. is in economics
The "dismal science," or as I've liked to describe it, the one social science whose practitioners delude themselves that they are practicing "hard" science (like physics).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. "Self-defense gun use is a somewhat nebulous concept."
Only to a pampered, cloistered elitist such as Hemenway.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. Yes yes, I'm a bad guy... And gas grilling is better than charcoal...
As if...
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
17.  And both oak and mesquite are better than charcoal! n/t
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I buy lump hardwood charcoal...
I use cherry, mesquite and applewood for smoking. Depending on the meat.
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