120 Crooked Gun Stores Provide 1 in 7 Crime Guns

[MrBenchley]

"About one of every seven guns linked to American crimes or considered suspicious from 1996 through 2000 can be traced back to the same 120 gun stores, a gun safety group said Monday, urging the government to set up a watch list of irresponsible or corrupt gun dealers.
Of the 373,006 guns traced from crimes during the five-year period, 54,694 came from the 120 stores, according to data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, Tobacco and Explosives. The data, which surfaced in a lawsuit by the NAACP against gun manufacturers, was made public by the Washington-based Americans for Gun Safety Foundation.
The top three gun dealers on his list were Chuck's Guns in Riverdale, Ill., with 2,370 guns sold; Don's Guns & Galleries Inc. in Indianapolis, with 2,294; and Badger Outdoors Inc. in West Milwaukee, Wis., with 1,906. "
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/01/12/gun_stores/index.html
No wonder getting themselves immunity from liability laws is such a priority for the gun industry. Wonder what a full-bore investigation would turn up?

You might recall, the GOP tried to sneak an amendment through on a budget bill last year that would make gun shops even less repsponsible for their lethal wares...the Tiahrt amendment (named after the imbecile GOP lawmaker who proposed it) would have meant, among other things:
--ATF could no longer require dealers like Bull’s Eye, which gave both Burford Furrow and the Beltway sniper their weapons, to take a physical inventory of their firearms.
--ATF would not be allowed to release trace or multiple sale data (like this), thereby shielding the worst dealers from public scrutiny
--The hundreds of thousands of irresponsible kitchen table firearm dealers that Clinton put out of business would have had their licenses reinstated.

[CO Liberal]

1. As I Said In The Other Thread.....

...they need to figure out WHY the data for these stores is so far out of line with the industry average. If they're doing something wrong at these gun shops, they should be shut down and/or the owners should do some jail time.

I know that before this thread is finished, there are gonna be at least a few pro-gunners rallying to the defense of the gun shops. I'm basing this on the behavior I experienced yesterday when this story was discussed on a local talk show in Colorado Springs yesterday (The Joseph Michelli Show, KVOR). True to form, the usual gang of rabid pro-gunners who always call in were stumbling all over themselves because someone was saying something bad about a gun shop.

[demsrule4life]

3. Americans for Gun Safety Foundation

Now there is an unbiased organization.

[iverglas]

6. and yer point is?

"The data, which surfaced in a lawsuit by the NAACP against gun manufacturers, was made public by the Washington-based Americans for Gun Safety Foundation.

If *I* "make public" the fact that the sky is blue, will the fact that I really don't like the colour blue (I don't) be the determining factor on the question of the colour of the sky??

The data seems to have been collected by/for the NAACP. Comments?

[MrBenchley]

13. Too frigging funny, isn't it....

On the first page of this folder we can find the RKBA crowd with a thread that pushes an article lauding pResident Turd's "leadership" written by an AshKKKroft flack...

On the same page in another thread, we can find "scholarship" from a far right religious hysteric who thinks dinosaurs and people were alive at the same time AND an actual Republican who links to Free Republic and Gary Aldrich...

Those aren't biased....but this report from a bipartisan group reporting findings frrom the NAACP's lawsuit IS....

ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight.

Not to mention that in the last few month, the RKBA crowd posted FIVE different threads about a study this group did for the DLC.....and hilariously, it was discovered that none of those "enthusiasts" had bothered to read much beyond the second paragraph of the DLC's cover letter, to the part that showed American voters OVERWHELMINGLY wanted gun control.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=29642

[demsrule4life]

18. Links? RKBA crowd dont need links

dont need Nugent, the NRA orAsskkkkroft. No the RKBA dont need any of these. The best resource the RKBA has posts on this board every day. He is great at making progun more progun and people that may be sitting in the middle slip over to active progun. I bet when he calls entire states shitholes he even gets some anti gun folks to change over. Links? only link the RKBA needs is to J/PS.

[MrBenchley]

24. Hell, the RKBA crowd goes out of their way to HIDE links

Because when the link can be found, the claim by the RKBA crowd turns out to be either an OUTRIGHT FRAUD.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=32085

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=30092&mesg_id=30305&page=

Or a turd dredged up from some right wing cesspool....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=32499

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=32822&mesg_id=32822

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=22570&mesg_id=22570



"I bet when he calls entire states shitholes"
You mean like this?

"a2birdcage (275 posts) Mon Dec-01-03 01:14 PM
5. I really do..........
feel sorry for anyone that lives in that shithole state. It is becoming the Kalifornia of the east."

"Superfly  (1000+ posts) Mon Dec-01-03 03:28 PM
24. That's not the only reason NJ is a shithole"

"juancarlos (199 posts) Tue Dec-02-03 04:15 PM
96. People call Jersey a shithole because
it restricts people's rights more than other, sane, states. "

"Fescue4u (1000+ posts) Tue Dec-02-03 12:28 AM
75. What kind of hell hole is NJ anyway
What kind of Nazis are running that place?
I've read through the draconian regulations that place puts on everything from slingshots to shotguns, and now they are even attacking sportsmen
Thank god I don't live there."

"a2birdcage (275 posts) Tue Dec-02-03 06:44 PM
132. NJ is a fucking shithole!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=25602#25756

New Jersey has a Democratic governor, new Democratic majorities in the legislature, good public schools and a liberal newspaper. It just passed a gay rights bill. No wonder the RKBA crowd hates it.

They much prefer <sarcasm>Roy Moore's liberal, progressive Alabama</sarcasm>, which IS a conservative shithole synonymous worldwide with bigotry and ignorance...where the gun nuts have such sway that Al Quaeda was able to set up a terrorist training camp there unimpeded....

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/WNT_alabama_camp020725.html

P.S.: Those with long memories may even recall an RRKBA thread dishonestly trying to tie right wing nut par excellence Moore to gun control...although in fact he's the favorite of the gun nut crowd and recipient of their monetary contributions....

http://www.gunowners.org/a021897.htm

[demsrule4life]

57. There could be some truth to some of those jokes about

NJ being a toxic landfill for NY.

New figures from the American Cancer Society give New Jersey a grim distinction: It's the state with the highest rates of prostate cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, and male colon and rectal cancer, and exceeds the national average in all major forms of cancer surveyed.

You have all your energies directed in the wrong direction.

http://www.heraldandnews.net/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkzJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NDc1NzIwJnlyaXJ5N2Y3MTdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5Mg==

[CO Liberal]

58. Talk About Apples and Oranges.....

What in Hell does this have to do with guns??? Or gun dealers???

[demsrule4life]

59. Are aapples better for you then regular

apples?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demsrule4life]

61. I wonder whom I learned that from

:eyes:

[MrBenchley]

62. The whole RKBA crowd does it, Dems..

you're hardly the only one.

[alwynsw]

77. Golly, Mr.B

I'm not quoted in your post. Yet you paint me with the same brush.

[MrBenchley]

79. Golly, alwyns

if you want to climb in bed with that, be my guest.

But then don't squawk when your playmates are pointed out.

[Dolomite]

19. I don't get it...

The data, which surfaced in a lawsuit by the NAACP against gun manufacturers, was made public by the Washington-based Americans for Gun Safety Foundation.
The top three gun dealers on his list were... Badger Outdoors Inc. in West Milwaukee, Wis., with 1,906. "

I remember this quite well. This particular data that the NAACP so nobly sued over, and which AGS has so bravely fought to present to their eager truth-loving readers - is like, 3 or 4 years old. It was part of a week long special in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. One paragraph out of this spread was dedicated to reporting how it was nearly impossible for gun store owners to get the ATF to react on reports of customers making suspicious purchases. They just couldn’t be bothered to go after straw-purchase buyers and the like.

Anyway, I’m pretty sure you don’t have to sue the ATF (even back when Paul O’neill was in charge) for results of “studies” that try to show guns in a bad light. But if you’re passing your argument on via machinations of pure emotion, then let drama be your lube. Saying that the NAACP had to sue for this certainly makes somebody look sinister.

Unfortunately, from what I’ve seen, the only thing Badger Outdoors of W. Milwaukee got out of this was a ton of free advertising.


Edited to add: Oh, and AGS is pro-gun like Paris Hilton is pretty (and that is to say, NOT AT ALL!)

[CO Liberal]

20. Please Refer to My Post #7

Yes Virginia, the AGS IS pro-gun.

[CO Liberal]

7. From Their Web Site

http://w3.agsfoundation.com/

Underlining emphasis mine.

As Americans, we know that we can do more to promote gun safety and respect the rights of gun owners.

The Americans for Gun Safety Foundation is a not-for-profit organization that supports the rights of Americans who own firearms for sport, protection, and collection.

AGS Foundation is committed to educating Americans about gun rights and responsibilities — including responsible gun ownership, existing gun laws, and new policy options to help keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children.

Actually, they sound like they're looking for common ground. I'm gonna have to look a bit closer into this organization.....

[Stilgar]

43. better than most but

Kessler, a former aide to gun industry nemesis Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), may not be the best spokesperson.

[Withergyld]

2. Really??

"No wonder getting themselves immunity from liability laws is such a priority for the gun industry. Wonder what a full-bore investigation would turn up?

How would S 659 protect a dealer that voliated the law??

The bill would allow lawsuits to be filed under any of the following conditions:
from S659
"(i) an action brought against a transferor convicted under section 924(h) of title 18, United States Code, or a comparable or identical State felony law, by a party directly harmed by the conduct of which the transferee is so convicted;

(ii) an action brought against a seller for negligent entrustment or negligence per se;

(iii) an action in which a manufacturer or seller of a qualified product knowingly and willfully violated a State or Federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of the product, and the violation was a proximate cause of the harm for which relief is sought;

(iv) an action for breach of contract or warranty in connection with the purchase of the product; or

(v) an action for physical injuries or property damage resulting directly from a defect in design or manufacture of the product, when used as intended.

(B) NEGLIGENT ENTRUSTMENT- In subparagraph (A)(ii), the term `negligent entrustment' means the supplying of a qualified product by a seller for use by another person when the seller knows, or should know, the person to whom the product is supplied is likely to, and does, use the product in a manner involving unreasonable risk of physical injury to the person and others."

edited for clarity

[Withergyld]

4. BTW is the title of this tread any less inflamatory then the other one

that got locked???

[CO Liberal]

5. I Think It Is

Rather than labeling an entire industry, MrBenchley is correctly silgling out 120 gun dealers based on their actions.

At least, that's my opinion, FWIW.

[Withergyld]

8. The article says this

"Kessler acknowledged there is nothing to indicate that the 120 stores sold the guns illegally or knew they were selling to criminals. He compared them to the liquor stores of his youth. "

How does this show that the dealers are corrupt????

[Superfly]

9. These dealers have not been charged with any crimes

and this entire thread is based upon the opinion of a guy who says "there is NOTHING to indicate...."

The title of this thread is as inflammatory as the previous one.

[milliner]

10. The question from the original

thread, is, who was in charge of ATF and Justice during this five year period and why were no charges filed and prosecuted?

The statistics are damming and even lack of evidence should not be enough for the ATF/Justice from dragging these people through the system and bankrupting them. Remember Bill Gates?

[CO Liberal]

11. As Expected......

...people are rushing to defend these gun dealers.

[milliner]

14. I rushed to

prosecuting criminals. Haven' a clue what you mean.

[MrBenchley]

17. With some backhanded Democrat bashing...

Are you surprised? I'm not..

[milliner]

23. upon further thoughtful review

I realize that the rush is coming from the anti RKBA Crowd. I only said that law breakers should be prosecuted. Just paraphrasing here, but I could have sworn that The Rules say something like just quote the article and don't interject your own opinion into the title of your post.

This thread morphed from 'Study correlates gun stories with crime data' into '120 crooked gun stores provide 1 in 7 crime guns'.


Kessler acknowledged there is nothing to indicate that the 120 stores sold the guns illegally or knew they were selling to criminals. He compared them to the liquor stores of his youth.

The only rush here is to target 120 gun shops as criminals, without the benefit of even being charged with a crime let alone a trial date being set let alone being tried by the courts of the U.S. That is in fact, quite a rush.

The immunity you have to call these owners crooked and then quote an article that states unequivocally that no laws were broken or the intent of wrong doing not present, is quite a rush.

And I didn't 'bash' anyone. What you inferred says more about you than anything I wrote.

[beevul]

42. Against what?

"...people are rushing to defend these gun dealers."-CO Liberal

Defended against what?

[MrBenchley]

12. How tragic for the RKBA crowd

that the antics of the scummy gun industry sees the light of day...

Of course, the gun industry is doing all it can to make sure what they're really up to is hidden from the public....

[Withergyld]

15. Keep spinnin'

[RoeBear]

16. I'm curious about this part...

..."There was the liquor store you could go to where it didn't matter how bad your fake ID was, and you could buy beer. And there was the liquor store where it didn't matter how good your fake ID was, you weren't going to buy any beer, and that's the way it is with gun stores," Kessler said."

How are they getting past the NICS check?

I will go on record as saying; if these gun stores have done something wrong prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. Then let all the other gun stores know about it.

[CO Liberal]

21. We Agree Of That Part, RoeBear

I will go on record as saying; if these gun stores have done something wrong prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. Then let all the other gun stores know about it.

If the owners of operators of these gun shops have violated the law, then they should be doing the perp walk. On CNN, Faux News, and MSNBC.

[Tinfoil]

22. C'mon Roe

How are they getting past the NICS check?


You know that NICS check is a joke.


I'm one of those "several hundred thousand" criminals or whatever the number was that was prevented from buying a firearm because of the NICS.

Nevermind I've never had anything more than a speeding ticket in my entire life.

[RoeBear]

27. Are you saying...

...that NICS has prevented you from purchasing a gun or delayed a purchase? If so that would be a false positive. Are there false negatives also?

[slackmaster]

25. We should investigate knife stores and shore stores in same neighborhoods

I would expect to find that knives sold in the same neighborhoods as these maligned gun dealers account for a larger than normal portion of knives used in crimes. And shoe stores near those evil gun stores probably sold more than their share of "getaway shoes" used by criminals. Which would lead to the question:

What would happen if those gun, knife, and shoe stores relocated or simply closed their doors? Would the rates of crimes facilitated by knives and guns drop? Would criminals go barefoot? Or would they turn to other sources for their weapons and footware?

Without any kind of data to separate the contribution of the dealers to the high-crime atmosphere from the contribution of the inhabitants of the surrounding neighborhoods, I think it's irresponsible to label the retailers or the locals as corrupt. It may be that the problem is due largely to bad behavior by one group or the other, or the real truth may lie somewhere between the two absurd extremes.

[MrBenchley]

26. From the Miami Herald

"Three Miami-area gun stores are among 120 nationwide that sell the most firearms traced to crimes, according to a national study released late Monday.
A fourth Florida gun dealer who also made the list, published by the Americans for Gun Safety Foundation, is based in Central Florida, but well known on the South Florida gun show circuit.
''If a few fast-food chains were responsible for 15 percent of food poisoning cases in the nation, there is little doubt that government would take steps to alert citizens about which restaurants were responsible,'' Kessler said. ``Known high-crime dealers are being shielded from public scrutiny rather than investigated by the government.'' "

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/7695763.htm


Nuff 'said....

[Stilgar]

28. those crazy ATF guys defending gun shops again

"When you have a gun store located in a high-crime area that does a high-volume business, a lot of guns will be traced back to them," said ATF spokeswoman Kelly Long. "It doesn't mean that is doing something illegal."

http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/bal-md.guns13jan13,0,4189644.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

But a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which collected the data used in the report, says the Charlotte dealer -- Hyatt Coin & Gun Shop -- is reputable, cooperative with law enforcement and does business by the book.

"Hyatt gun shop has been and continues to be one of the most cooperative federally licensed firearms dealers in the state of North Carolina," ATF spokesman Earl Woodham said after the report was released Monday. "I have nothing negative to say about Mr. Hyatt's business."

Woodham, who is the ATF spokesman for The Carolinas, said he was told by his superiors in Washington not to comment on the statistics. He said he could talk about agents' dealings with the local store.

Woodham said Hyatt's owners are cooperative during periodic inspections and when their records are needed for criminal investigations. He also said the high volume of guns they sell increases the chances one will end up involved in crime.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/

edit: added second link

[MrBenchley]

29. Md. ranks 5th in number of 'high-crime' gun shops

"Maryland ranks fifth in the nation in the number of stores selling guns later used in crimes or found in the hands of criminals, according to a new report from an advocacy group.

The report, prepared by the Washington-based Americans for Gun Safety Foundation, calls for federal agencies to step up investigation and prosecution of what the organization considers corrupt stores."

Sounds like a good idea.....

"Half of the stores cited by the report were in five states: Indiana, Illinois, Virginia, Georgia and Maryland. Kessler said Maryland has a relatively high number because it is a "fairly important gun trafficking state" and because Baltimore and other areas experience a lot of crime."

http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/bal-md.guns13jan13,0,4189644.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

[Stilgar]

31. foundation is taking "raw data and making totally false assumptions."

Valley Gun Shop on Harford Road in Parkville is also listed as a high-crime dealer. Owner Sanford Abrams said he is angered by the label, saying the foundation is taking "raw data and making totally false assumptions."

He said the store, in business for 50 years, sells 2,000 to 3,000 guns a year, and traces were done on 483 over five years. Just because a gun is traced, he said, doesn't mean it was used during a crime - some are found by police, some are stolen from their owners, some are turned into police after a fire.


so lets see...
2000 - 3000 a year for 5 years, 10,000 to 15,000
483 traces over 5 years

police traced 4.83% to 3.22% of all guns sold in that store in 5 years. Thats a dangerous store.

And since the ATF says that a trace DOES NOT MEAN an illegal act has happened it is even lower than that.

The ATF says this store has done nothing wrong and disputes the assumption.

[MrBenchley]

32. Blah blah blah

What did you expect this asswipe to say? "Holy Koresh! I'm busted!"

[Stilgar]

34. nice reply, ATF says nothing is wrong

Local ATF offices say local gun dealers have done nothing wrong.

LAW INFORCEMENT SAYS THEY ARE LEGAL.

Exactly how are police going to crack down on legal businesses? How would the ATF know what their own report means and if the gun stores they check are in compliance with the law?

An anti-gun group knows more about the report and gun dealers than the ATF.

[MrBenchley]

38. Blah blah blah....

ATF has inspected fewer than 1/3rd.

[alwynsw]

72. If they've inspected fewer than 1/3

how can you give credence to these percentages? Unless you have the numbers from the entire firearms retail industry the numbers are not valid.

[RoeBear]

35. Some surprise...

First that IL and MD would be on this list, I thought they had stringent requirements for selling guns.

Second this quote:

"When you have a gun store located in a high-crime area that does a high-volume business, a lot of guns will be traced back to them," said ATF spokeswoman Kelly Long. "It doesn't mean that is doing something illegal."

The surprise being the ATf defending the gun store.

[Stilgar]

37. actually 2 agents, 2 different states, 2 different gun stores, both legal

Now, I wonder if the reason both the ATF and Gun Dealers say the report is wrong might be because it is.

[Romulus]

44. MD ranks 5th, even after

instituting:

- a mandatory safety class before handgun purchase
- no private sale loophole for handgun purchases
- mandatory handgun sale registration with the state police
- a seven to ten day waiting period
- strict gun store security requirements
- mandatory built-in handgun locks

Those laws seem to really be working . . . :eyes:

I noticed PA wasn't in the top 5, even with firearm laws identical to VA, and a closer proximity to NJ/NY, not to mention Philadelphia being in the same damn state.

[MrBenchley]

30. Va. stores sell most guns used in crimes

"Thirteen Virginia gun stores, including five in Hampton Roads, are listed among stores that sell the most guns used in crimes nationwide, according to a new report from a Washington-based gun safety group.
"Known high-crime dealers are being shielded from public scrutiny rather than investigated by the government," AGSF policy director Jim Kessler said. "We are naming names and calling for a watch-list because the citizens of Virginia have a right to know what stores are arming criminals in their community."
The group called for Congress and U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to create a "high-crime dealer watch-list" immediately and to increase investigations and prosecutions of corrupt gun stores.
R&B Guns in Hampton, once regarded by area law enforcement as one of the highest-volume gun dealers on the Peninsula, closed in 2001 after owner Richard Norad's license was revoked following his arrest for improperly selling firearms. It had more than 1,100 gun traces and ranked fifth on AGSF's list. Norad had run R&B Guns out of his home."

http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-41211sy0jan13,0,2531262.story?coll=dp-aol-yahoo-nws-hed

[MrBenchley]

33. Actual link to the report.....

"Of the 120 high crime dealers named, ninety-six remain open and only twenty-four have been inspected by federal agents during the past three and a half years. Eighteen of these twenty-four dealers were cited for at least one violation of federal gun law and seven high crime dealers were cited more than five times. Each citation may include multiple violations. However, the number of violations is not available to the public.

"Being a high crime dealer seems to have no effect on whether federal agents will conduct inspections of their businesses,” said AGSF senior researcher Ed Hill who co-authored the report. “High crime gun dealers are not always law breakers, but any store that habitually sells guns that end up in crime should be placed on a watch list, not protected under a veil of government secrecy." "

http://w3.agsfoundation.com/press_011304.html

[Stilgar]

36. admitting no law was broken

So, if they did nothing wrong what will a watch list do?

"placed on a watch list, not protected under a veil of government secrecy"

So the public can know gun stores are not breaking the law. Still confused as to how this will actually reduce the number of guns traced.

[MrBenchley]

39. Who the hell are you trying to kid?

Really?

"Of the 120 high crime dealers named, ninety-six remain open and only twenty-four have been inspected by federal agents during the past three and a half years. Eighteen of these twenty-four dealers were cited for at least one violation of federal gun law and seven high crime dealers were cited more than five times. Each citation may include multiple violations. However, the number of violations is not available to the public. "

[slackmaster]

40. Sounds like ATF is doing its job

Inspecting dealers for which there is reason to suspect they are screwing up, and citing ones that are found to have violated the law or regulations.

:shrug:

[Stilgar]

46. really

Kessler said though many dealers follow the letter of the law by doing background checks, some do not scrutinize obvious straw purchasers closely enough.
(snip)

The ATF, on the other hand, says it inspects stores once a year. An ATF representative in Cleveland said prosecutions for corrupt dealers is up. Since 2000, the number of federal licensees charged with violating federal or state laws more than doubled.
(snip)

Jim Kessler, policy director for Americans for Gun Safety and author of the report, said the study does not claim that all 120 gun dealers have committed illegal acts or even acted improperly.

"I'm not saying that every gun store on this list is corrupt, because I think some undoubtedly are not," he said. "But there are definitely stores on this list where their niche market is criminals. Whether they follow the letter and spirit of the law is based solely on their conscience, not on any fear of getting caught."
(snip)

Report does not say when the guns were bought, only that they were found between 96-2000. Meaning a gun could have been sold in 94 and traced later. Again greatly reducing the percent of total traced to crime.

[MrBenchley]

47. Really

Onnly 24 of the 120 had been inspected...and 18 of those were in violation.

[CO Liberal]

48. In Other Words...

75 percent of the shops inspected were in violation.

[Stilgar]

51. seems like they are doing a good job

if they inspect the stores that are suspected and catch 75%, seems good to me.

Since it is been stated by the author of the review that not all stores have done anything illegal at all.

[MrBenchley]

54. And most haven't been inspected

at all.......

[slackmaster]

49. They chose their targets well

"Fire for effect."

[MrBenchley]

41. Corrupt gun Industry and GOP Scramble To Hide the Data

"To protect the veil of secrecy that surrounds high crime dealers, Congress is set to include a rider known as the Tiahrt Amendment in the omnibus spending bill which specifically prohibits public release of crime trace data used in this report.....Typical gun trafficking indicators include crime guns with obliterated serial numbers, recovered in out of state crimes, or bought as part of a multiple purchase with other handguns. Therefore, traces in this survey thus represent the majority, but not all, of the guns that came from these high-crime dealers. "

http://w3.agsfoundation.com/press_011304.html

And remember, the scumbags of the GOP and the corrupt gun industry are also trying to rewrite liability laws to prevent the sort of lawsuit that uncovered this information in the first place.

[MrBenchley]

45. From USA Today

And now we know why AshKKKroft had a press release there about his bogus program...

"According to documents obtained by The Seattle Times in a freedom-of-information lawsuit against the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), guns traced to Bull's Eye were involved in 52 killings and other crimes from 1997 through 2001. The sniper case finally prodded the ATF to yank the dealer's license of the store's owner. He since has turned the Bull's Eye over to a friend while appealing the case.
Other dealers with bad records have escaped punishment. Among the reasons:
Too few inspectors. The ATF has only 460 field inspectors, roughly one for every 225 gun dealers. Inspectors also are responsible for overseeing thousands of liquor, tobacco and explosives manufacturers and distributors. As a result, scarcely 5% of gun dealers are inspected in a typical year.
Legal barriers. A 1986 law prohibits agents from inspecting a dealer more than once a year without evidence of a crime. It also bars prosecutions unless "willful" violations can be proved and treats most record-keeping violations as misdemeanors.
Now Congress is weighing additional enforcement restrictions. Citing a need to ease burdensome regulations, the House voted last year to revoke ATF authority to investigate dealers traced to weapons used in crimes and to require dealers to maintain an inventory of their guns. The Senate takes up the measure next week."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20040114/cm_usatoday/usletsscofflawgundealerscontinuetoarmcriminals

[Stilgar]

50. And yet another lie in the report

Even when a store is shut down or prosecuted, the punishment is often lax. For example, Baltimore Gunsmith, which ranked 12th on the high crime dealer list with 794 crime gun traces, was shut down after the owner, Tony DiMartino, had his dealers’ license stripped by ATF in 2001. However, the store remains open selling firearm accessories and firearms at weekend gun shows. The store is operated by Tony’s son, Larry DiMartino, the store’s website brags “Tony’s still around so stop in and say hello!!�

http://w3.agsfoundation.com/press_011304.html

However

BATF estimates that nearly 20 percent of all guns seized in city crimes over the past nine years were sold at Baltimore Gunsmith, for a total of more than 1,000 firearms.

In denying the DiMartinos' renewal application, BATF cited 12 violations of the federal Gun Control Act and state laws, including selling guns and ammunition to a convicted felon, selling firearms to an out-of-state resident, possession of a weapon with an obliterated serial number and falsified federal records.

The BATF investigation focused on illegal "straw purchases," in which a person with a clean criminal record applies to buy firearms for someone else who cannot legally buy firearms.

Larry DiMartino says Baltimore Gunsmith will remain open selling archery equipment, antique firearms, air guns, hunting accessories and other outdoor sports supplies-items which do not require a federal firearms permit to sell.

http://www.ebguide.com/seleadarchspr.html


Remember, Maryland closed its gun show loophole so any weekend sales are illegal. So the gun shop they mention as lax in the article is no longer selling guns at all.

[MrBenchley]

52. Now what in that mess is supposed to be a lie??

Looks like the article was right on the money about those crooks...

[milliner]

53. OK now I will explain

dealing with a government agency that has the ability to shut down your legal,federally controlled, money making, job creating, law abiding business.

This happened to me.

An agent showed up at my door to inspect the records I was required by law to have available. Upon inspection there were several things that did not fall into precise categories, after speaking to a local representative that I had cleared these transactions thru, the agent was satisfied and was on his way.

8 weeks later I received a certified letter with a $25,000 fine attached.

After 6 weeks of phone calls and letters exchanged by attorneys I was told on the phone by this particular federal agent that although I did not violate any specific law or rule, and had in fact conducted business within the intent and rule of this agency, I was still guilty and payment of the $25,000 would be expected. It was only after I was able to find (by luck) this persons superior in D.C.
Two days later I received a letter saying that although my guilt or innocence had no bearing and that the agency could reopen this case at any time, for now it was dropped.

This has bearing here because I know that my infractions are part of the data base even though the case was dropped.

[beevul]

55. How about this...

--ATF could no longer require dealers like Bull?s Eye, which gave both Burford Furrow and the Beltway sniper their weapons, to take a physical inventory of their firearms."


Did Bulls Eye really GIVE weapons to both Burford Furrow and the Beltway sniper?

Was one of those weapons stolen from Bulls Eye?


So, did they really GIVE the two mentioned individuals guns, or was it a lie?

[MrBenchley]

56. Gee, beev....

Ask me next if I fucking care....

[beevul]

63. Hey, you asked Bub.

"Now what in that mess is supposed to be a lie??"


Sound familiar?

"Ask me next if I fucking care...."

The answer is obvious. No need to ask.


Have a nice day.

[MrBenchley]

66. And I got no answer......

instead I got YOU complaining about something that wasn't in Stilgar's post.

But hey, I'm used to the RKBA crowd not being able to back up anything they say.

[beevul]

74. Wrong.

50. "And yet another lie in the report"-Stilgar(referring to the report which is the subject of this thread)

To which you reply-

"52. Now what in that mess is supposed to be a lie??"-MrBenchly

To which I reply-

55. "How about this..."

And point out a couple FLAT OUT lies in the aforementioned report.

To which you reply-

56. "Gee, beev.... Ask me next if I fucking care...."

To which I reply-

63. "Hey, you asked Bub."

To which you reply-

66. "And I got no answer......instead I got YOU complaining about something that wasn't in Stilgar's post. But hey, I'm used to the RKBA crowd not being able to back up anything they say."

I never mentioned anything in Stilgar's post. I quoted the original article. I pointed out wrong facts in the article. You got your answer just fine. You just didn't like it. But thats ok, go ahead and pretend you weren't referring to the original article when you said "Now what in that mess is supposed to be a lie??" Pretent that the original report has no wrong facts, no misleading information, and no agenda. Pretent this isn't just another scare tactic to drum up suport by chicken littling the masses who would know no better. Fortunately, the masses seem to be knowing better now days, where guns are concerned. CCW is catching on, and "gun control utopias" are getting fewer and farther between, though they remain nevertheless noteworthy for thier crime rates.

I guess I should expect these twitchy spasms from a movement which is close to taking its dying breath. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

"But hey, I'm used to the RKBA crowd not being able to back up anything they say"-MrBenchly

And I am used to the anti-rkba crowd not being able to defend the lies thier movement prints.



Have a nice day. :)

[MrBenchley]

80. Wow....what a pantload.

[DoNotRefill]

64. I wonder how many guns those stores sold total?

If those 120 stores sold 1 in 7 guns total sold in the country, then a 1 in 7 trace record would be expected and very normal.

Want to guess which gun stores have the most traces?
For a predictor, look at which stores have the highest volume.

[MrBenchley]

65. I wonder how many MORE were sold to criminals

by these stores that have yet to be traced....

[alwynsw]

71. Well then,

"I wonder how many MORE were sold to criminals"

by these stores that have yet to be traced....

If/when that happens, the percentage of illegal activities committed with their products for these stores (in the article) will drop.

They must drop unless no stores outside of the "study" ever sold a firearm that was used in a crime. Unless, of course, you meant to say, "by the aforementioned stores]/b] that have yet to be traced."

Either way, your percentages lose value. They're either based on an incomplete study as is the current situation, or the percentages drop when all firearms retailers are factored in; unless no store that is not in the group targeted ever sold a firearm used in a crime.

[MrBenchley]

75. Who the hell are you trying to kid?

[alwynsw]

78. Simple math

no kidding! Math works.

[alwynsw]

67. Isn't it interesting?

The three top "offenders" are just a short drive from Chicago. I don't know if there's any connection, but it does appear as though the current murder capital's denizen's are seeking their arms elsewhere - possibly through strawman purchases.

I didn't check, but I doubt that the three mentioned are all Class 3 dealers. I also doubt that all of the stores surveyed are Class 3 dealers. If they are, well and good. If not, I have to question this part of the article: The report was limited to handguns and assault rifles, and dealers were limited to those with more than 200 suspicious traces by the ATF. since assault weapons are, by definition, capable of select fire and therefore require a Class 3 license to sell and a whole load of paperwork and permits for the buyer.

If any of the stores surveyed, or any gun dealer for that matter, is/are selling firearms illegally IMO they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Unfortunately, this study appears to be another witch hunt. Someone has to be at the top of any list. Theonly dealers named in the article are in metropolitan areas. Crime rates are traditionally higher in metropolitan areas. The proximity to Chicago of the three named is even more damning for the Windy City and it's banning efforts. (You can believe this. I know that many urban types cannot imagine driving from Chicago to Indy for anything because it either seems too far or it isn't served by an easy public transit connector. Driving for 1 or 2 hours is nothing to most folks west of the Appalachians.)

Remember. 50% of all physicians graduated in the bottom half of their class. (For those who may miss the reason for that comment, it is there to illustrate that statistics can be made to sound more or less devastating, evil, good, fair, etc. according to the wording and bias of the statistician or reporter.)

[MrBenchley]

68. It's also interesting

that the GOP response is to outlaw collecting data like this.

[slackmaster]

70. You can't outlaw that which is already illegal

n/t

[alwynsw]

76. Do you mean like passing additional gun controllaws that nearly mirror

the ones already in place? Collection of that data is already illegal.

Get your own links, I did.

[slackmaster]

69. The most important data point that's missing IMO is overall volume

I would expect the Ford dealer who sells the most vehicles in the country to also be among the top providers of cars to people who get busted for drunk driving. Without some indication of the volume of the business these particular gun dealers do compared to dealers in general, it's meaningless to look at just raw numbers of guns used in crimes as apparently has been done here.

[alwynsw]

73. No spin here at all

Jim Kessler, the report's author, said 7 million guns are sold in the United States in an average year, and 300,000 are used in crimes. "How do you protect the rights of the 7 million while protecting the 300,000? One of the ways is to crack down on these high-crime gun stores," he said.

This is either a blatant attempt at distortion or pure nonsense. As written, Mr. Kessler implies that the 300,000 firearms-related crimes are committed with firearms sold in the same year.

Also, I was unable to find any mention of multiple charges against suspects involved in these crimes, which, according to standard procedure, are also listed a firearms-related crimes. e.g. Suspect A, a convicted felon for the purpose of argument, shoots Victim B in Washington, D.C. with an unregistered firearm that he kept in his pocket. Suspect A is charged with 1) Assault with a deadly weapon or attempetd murder 2) Possession of an unregistered firearm 3) Possession of a firearm by a convicted felon 4) Possession of a concealed deadly weapon 5) Discharging a firearm within the city limits AND if he had any other contraband, such as illegal drugs or was underthe influence of drugs or alcohol, he gets one to three additional counts for that in conjunction with a firearm.

I'm not naive enough to believe that the numbers are artificially inflated by a factor of 80 to 90%, but they are inflated by the number of charges as opposed to the number of incidents. I have seen single incidents produce upwards of 20 charges related to a single offense.

Anyone else with law enforcement or corrections experience out there that has seen this happen?

To reinforce my position. FIreirms law violations and crimes committed with ANY deadly weapon should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Let's not be blinded by raw numbers.