Who would ever need a gun at a bar? Or a Park?

[PavePusher]

Who, indeed...

Bar:
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_3489b50c-a31a-11df-9d9e-001cc4c03286.html

"Two people were shot inside a bar early Sunday morning when a shootout broke out between an employee of the bar and a man who had been kicked out of the bar, police said.

A 32-year-old man, who is an employee of the bar, and a 23-year old female were shot at around 1:30 a.m. inside November Bar at 4001 N. Romero, near West Roger Road, the Tucson Police Department said in a news release.

The victims were transported to local hospitals with injuries that were non-life threatening, police said.

The shootout apparently happened after the male suspect and a woman returned to the bar's parking lot after being removed from the bar by employees earlier in the evening, police said."

More at link.



Park:
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/ariz-escapees-believed-to-587707.html

"ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — Federal authorities say two men who escaped from a private Arizona prison and a woman thought to have helped them are believed to be in the area around Yellowstone National Park.

The U.S. Marshals Service says information has developed within the past two days that indicates Tracy Province, John McCluskey and Casslyn Welch may be hiding in portions of the park that span Montana and Wyoming.

Authorities say it's now believed Province has separated from McCluskey and Welch."

More at link.





The moral of the story is that the need for self-defense can occur anywhere and that those who claim "No-one needs weapons in <insert favorite public place here> are either astoundingly ignorant, or utter liars. Those who would restrict your ability to provide for your own security obviously do not care about your well-being.

[Booster]

1. Now, come on. That off-duty cop needed his gun in that

dog park so he could shoot that dog that was agressive towards his own dog. How else could he have handled it?:sarcasm:

[villager]

2. So people need guns in bars because... people bring guns to bars?

n/t

[rrneck]

6. Let me help.

So people need guns in bars because... people bring guns to bars illegaly?

There, fixed it for you.

[villager]

7. so the solution to more guns is... more guns?

Gosh, it just doesn't seem "fixed," somehow...

[rrneck]

13. The solution to more guns

is less violent people.

Do you have a self defense solution for someone who is assaulted by another not using a gun, but rather a knife, club, fists, feet or, since we are discussing guns in bars, a broken bottle?

[X_Digger]

43. Sippy cups, apparently...

Queensland bans glasses at 8 bars
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/stubbies-glasses-banned-at-queensland-pubs-and-clubs-20100305-pmeh.html

Eight Queensland pubs and clubs have been slapped with total bans on the use of glass - including stubbies - as the state government shifts its alcohol-fulled violence campaign up a gear.

Liquor licensing authorities initially warned 77 venues across the state could be stripped of their right to serve drinks in glassware after compiling police figures and late-night trading hours.

All 77 were issued with ''show cause'' notices last year, forcing them to justify why they should be allowed to keep glass on the premises.

[GreenStormCloud]

68. Throughout all of evolution the solution to violence has always been greater violence.

Tough luck, but that is the reality of life.

[Arctic Dave]

10. So, allow the guy who brought it in illegally to be able to bring it legally?

How would that have stopped him from shooting up the place to begin with?

[spin]

11. In most states you have to have a criminal background check ...

before you get a carry permit.

There's a damn good chance that the fool who shot up the bar would have failed the background check.

If the employee of the bar was unarmed and unable to shoot back at the bad guy, we might be reading of another massacre. Unfortunately, two people were shot, but the injuries are not life threatening.

[Arctic Dave]

18. But you only assume he has a criminal background.

[spin]

32. True. We don't know who he is....

All we know is that he was "a male in his 30s with a buzz cut."

I said "There's a damn good chance that the fool who shot up the bar would have failed the background check." In most cases a shooter has a criminal record or mental problems. But to be fair, I have known people who lost their reasoning while drinking excessively. A good percentage of the people who can't handle drinking have had encounters with the police and would fail the background check.

We may find out if the police ever catch him.

[PavePusher]

36. This is true...

but he was most certainly engaged in criminal actions.

I don't know anywhere in the U.S. that it is legal to be thrown out of a bar, go home, get a gun, come back and start shooting the place up.

[provis99]

19. how will that stop him from brining in a gun illegally?

You're not making much sense.

[spin]

35. It won't. But I was replying to a post that said ...

"So, allow the guy who brought it in illegally to be able to bring it legally?"

My point was that if he had a record, he would have not been allowed to carry a firearm in most states. Laws have little effect on criminals, so he might still carry if he applied for a permit and was turned down.

Usually people who have major anger management problems or abuse alcohol in public have a record.

[rrneck]

12. HWWWAAAAAAAAA!

You missed the point. A lot of things are brought into bars illegally. Sticking a shiv into someone is illegal too.

Do you have a self defense solution for someone who is assaulted by another not using a gun, but rather a knife, club, fists, feet or, since we are discussing guns in bars, a broken bottle?

[Arctic Dave]

16. Uh, none of those other things need a CCW.

We are talking about guns. As for getting into a fight in a bar, shit happens, thats why they have bouncers.

[rrneck]

22. "shit happens"

That's a pretty cavalier attitude unless it happens to YOU! But that's ok, I understand it's just the ideology talking.

Criminals don't have CCW's, but they still have guns.

Care to answer the question now?

[Arctic Dave]

45. Are you saying I haven't been in bar room brawls?

You would be wrong. Sometimes I won sometimes I didn't, but I was never a big enough pussy to resort to using a firearm to settle them. Must be the difference between some people.

[rrneck]

48. Uh, yes. We're all very impressed down here.

Are you enough of a badass mutherfucker to save everybody? 24/7?

Have you got the guts to answer the question in post # 12?

[proteus_lives]

60. Ahh the the internet tough guy.

We are all suitable impressed.

[spin]

39. In Florida , a state issued concealed weapons permit does allow the holder ...

to carry a concealed knife and other weapons.

From the Concealed Carry Reciprocity page on the Florida Division of Licensing page at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/concealed_carry.html

1) While Florida's law allows licensees to carry stun guns, knives, and billy clubs in a concealed fashion, the laws in these states allow for concealed carry of handguns or pistols ONLY, NOT WEAPONS IN GENERAL. Florida license holders are prohibited from carrying other types of weapons while in these states.

I always carry a concealed knife in a pocket on my cargo pants or shorts. To me it's just a tool. (I am not a knife fighter.) Without my concealed weapons permit, I would have to clip it to my pocket with the clip showing. I find it more convenient to carry it in a pocket with a Velcro flap.


Spyderco Endura

[Arctic Dave]

46. That tells you a lot about the difference of states in which you live.

[spin]

54. I can never understand why a state gives you a permit to carry ...

a concealed firearm, but has tight restrictions on what knives you can carry, even with a CCW.

[Euromutt]

51. "That's why they have bouncers"

In Olympia, WA in 2004, a fight took place on the dance floor of an establishment called the Bar Code. The bouncers broke it up and ejected the offenders, but one of them, a gang member from Lakewood (in the next county over) went to his car, retrieved a handgun (illegally owned and carried*) and opened fire on the establishment from across the street. At least one person was killed and several injured, including at least one of the bouncers.

What do you do when something like that happens?

Note that the circumstances are not dissimilar from those of the incident described in the OP; unarmed guy causes trouble, leaves, and comes back with a firearm.

* - Washington state law requires possession of a Concealed Pistol License to transport a loaded handgun in a car, and this guy definitely did not have a CPL.

[cleanhippie]

67. "shit happens" is exactly right.

ANd if/when it does, I am prepared with my .45. What are you prepared with when "shit happens?"

[PavePusher]

23. You are being disingenous.

Even in places where it would be legal to bring a gun to a bar, the method the shooter used would still have been illegal (apparently intoxicated and with lillegal intent).

Stop conflating legal and illegal intentions and actions.

[Arctic Dave]

44. So why go hang out at a bar if you aren't going to have drink?

Who's being disingenuous.

[X_Digger]

49. I don't drink. I often find myself in a bar as a designated driver or listening to a band. n/t

[PavePusher]

55. There are any number of reasons, as you well know.

Now you have stepped well over the line from disingenuosness to all-out playing the fool.

Stop.

[KansasVoter]

3. People are shot everywhere. Including courthouses. Should people be armed everywhere?

[shadowrider]

4. Yes. Next question?

[villager]

8. No. Next question?

n/t

[rrneck]

15. How do you plan to disarm criminals? nt

[provis99]

20. If nuclear bombs are banned, only criminals will have nuclear bombs!

Typical NRA reasoning.

[rrneck]

21. How do YOU plan to disarm them? nt

[PavePusher]

25. Do you have any constructive answers?

Or only old, tired cliches, long since disabused.

My guess is you are only here to be a disruptor.

[SteveM]

64. Bar-ROOM! went the elephant in the barroom.

[villager]

26. How do you plan to send your kids packing to their schools? nt

[rrneck]

27. I'm dissapointed.

You're better than that at evading the point.

There are now two questions pending:

1. How do you plan to disarm criminals?

2. Do you have a self defense solution for someone who is assaulted by another not using a gun, but rather a knife, club, fists, feet or, since we are discussing guns in bars, a broken bottle?

[PavePusher]

31. I think you replyed to the wrong person? n/t

[rrneck]

34. Uh, don't think so.

Talking to Villager? Did is come through funny? I've either had too much coffee or not enough beer.

[PavePusher]

37. Oops, nope, my fault. Lost track of the thread chain. Disregard. Apparently I need the coffee...

[proteus_lives]

52. They refuse to answer that question.

Facts don't fit well with them.

[rrneck]

59. Nor does candor aparrently. nt

[spin]

9. If you are in a "no-gun" zone ...

there should be armed security to protect you.

The last time I appeared in court as a witness in the trial of a fool who was persistently stalking my daughter, there were four armed police officers in the room. For all I know, the judge might have been packing heat under his robe.

I was probably in the safest place in my small town.

[rrneck]

14. If you disarm them

and assume responsibility for their safety, no.

[PavePusher]

24. Legally armed, peaceful Citizens? Yes, no question about it.

Edit: If they chose to be. No-one should be forced to be armed against their will.

[AtheistCrusader]

61. If you know the law, and can carry responsibly, yeah, why not?

I am. Except at work, because my employer doesn't allow it.

[rrneck]

5. Gator?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070915/

[Lint Head]

17. Dick Cheney?

[costahawk1987]

28. I grew up in the country and can shoot quite well

But if I ever need a gun to feel safe on the street, I will move somewhere else. That does not mean I lack patriotism. It means that if I need to kill to survive here, then the bloodthirsty bastards have already won. I'd rather party and play chess than smoke some fool over a pissing contest.

[PavePusher]

29. Firstly, I did not raise the issue of "patriotism", as it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Secondly, even in peaceful areas, it is sometimes neccesary to use lethal force to respond to criminal actions. Let me repeat myself: Crime happens everywhere to varying degrees of frequency. Your "pissing contest" may be a thug ordering the staff of an all-night store into the rear storage area for execution.

What do you do if you can not afford to move, for any of a myriad of reasons?

You may, of course, make any decision you wish for your self, but I put it to you that it is immoral to make such decisions for others, perhaps even against their personal prefences.

[costahawk1987]

42. I've got no problem with self-defense...or guns!

But I don't think we need to go around strapped and ready to shoot first and ask questions later. I mentioned patriotism because I do dig this country but would split if it were necessary to blast my way down the street for a freaking soda. The "guns for everybody everywhere" crowd annoys me just as bad as the "no guns anywhere period" one did earlier in life. But you strap a .45 to 'Disney on Ice' if it makes you feel safer and tougher. Pardon the shot.

[PavePusher]

56. You are building strawmen faster than they can march away.

Please go do it elsewhere.

[shadowrider]

65. Show me the post where someone said "guns for everybody everywhere"

I'll wait

[oneshooter]

66. Hope you brought a snack or two, it could ba a while!

:toast: :beer: :donut: :popcorn:

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[rrneck]

30. It also means that you can afford to move somewhere else.

And that the rest of life is structured for that kind of mobility. Most other people do not enjoy the luxury of being able to concede the field to criminals.

[costahawk1987]

47. I haven't conceded anything to criminals

I walk past rough-looking characters every day, some assuredly carrying weapons, but they don't bother me. They don't see me as a mark, so we walk past each other without problems. As for the option to move, most of us could if we wanted (although not to new mansions on private jets).

[rrneck]

50. Nobody really cares what you're willing to concede.

We are very interested what you are willing to ask others to concede.

"most of us could if we wanted"

Actually, no. If it were half as easy as you make it sound there wouldn't be any crime because all the criminals would be exiled to remote enclaves where they couldn't hurt anybody. The fact of the matter is those least able to move are the most vulnerable to crime. They can't run away. That's what makes them sitting ducks.

Yours is another cavalier dismissal of the real lives of real people based on an empty ideology. It is an attitude that gets Republicans elected.

[demosincebirth]

33. A bar is a good place to allow guns. Booze and guns...good combination!

[PavePusher]

38. Perhaps you would care to address the facts of the issue...

instead of making much-worn inuendos?

In very few places is it legal to drink in a bar while armed, and in most of those (all but one IIRC), it is illegal to be intoxicated to the point of their State DUI limit.

And it doesn't seem to be a huge problem...

I'm still looking for the "blood in the sawdust" that was predicted when the Arizona guns/bars law went into effect last year. No noticeable increase in bar shootings yet.

[demosincebirth]

57. No use discussing it with you.

[AtheistCrusader]

62. Because you are wrong, and cannot cite any facts to back up your assertion.

I wouldn't argue your position if I were you either.

[PavePusher]

63. I discussed the facts.

Your rebutal equated to "La, la, la, la, la I Cant Hear You...."

Care to try again? We are reasonable adults here interested in discussion and debate.

[spin]

40. Have you ever heard of a designated driver ...

who doesn't drink and drives his intoxicated friends home?

If he has a concealed carry permit and carries, what's the problem? He's not mixing alcohol and guns. Plus, he's preventing his drunk friends from driving and endangering everything in their path.

[demosincebirth]

58. Never heard of DD.

[proteus_lives]

53. Where is the blood in the streets?

Just wondering.

[tularetom]

41. I once owned a bar

It was one of only two times in my life when I felt like I needed to have a gun nearby. I kept one in a drawer under the bar.

The other time was in college when I had a part time job repossessing items for a finance company.