Armed Ashtabula County Ohio citizens help underfunded sheriffs department ...

[spin]

Citizens arm selves against homeless man
August 4, 2010

AUSTINBURG TOWNSHIP — A homeless man is scheduled for his preliminary hearing in Eastern County Court on Tuesday following a weekend incident reminiscent of the Wild West.

Lee E. Nash, 56, was arrested Saturday evening by Ashtabula County sheriff’s deputies after three armed citizens surrounded Kusar’s camper-trailer in which Nash was found sleeping next to a sawed-off 12-gauge shotgun.

John Kusar Jr., Austinburg Township trustee and owner of the property on which Nash was discovered, said he and two other men armed themselves after Kusar searched the camper and found Nash sleeping there with the gun.

“We had him pinned down, and we were all armed,” Kusar said.

Kusar said the citizens who surrounded the trailer armed themselves with a pistol, assault rifle and 30/ 30 rifle. The guns were not fired, but Kusar said the men were serious about protecting themselves if Nash came out shooting.

“If he had come out of that trailer (before the deputies got there), we would have had to call the coroner,” Kusar said.

Kusar said the deputies arrived about 10 minutes after the Sheriff’s Department was alerted to the situation. According to the Sheriff’s Department report, Nash went for his weapon when the deputy awoke him. The report makes no mention of the citizens having been armed.

***snip***

The precipitating event that sent the men searching for Nash, formerly of Route 46 North, was a breaking-and-entering incident at the home of an elderly Allen Road resident. The female victim reportedly was injured by the intruder and required hospitalization.

According to the report, Nash was arrested recently for other burglaries: On July 17, Nash was arrested after people attending a block party in Austinburg Township came home to find him in their garage with stolen property from their residence. On June 21, Nash was arrested for burglary at a Clay Street residence.

***snip***

The men took the investigation into their own hands because the Sheriff’s Department lacks the manpower to do investigations, because of budget cuts.

“It’s a damned shame the Ashtabula County commissioners will fund the Geneva State Lodge and not fund the sheriff,” Kusar said.
http://starbeacon.com/local/x2064738645/Citizens-arm-selves-against-homeless-man

SOME IMPORTANT BACKGROUND:

Ashtabula County: Judge tells residents to "Arm themselves"
Jeff Maynor Updated: 4/9/2010 5:36:18 PM

JEFFERSON -- In the ongoing financial crisis in Ashtabula County, the Sheriff's Department has been cut from 112 to 49 deputies. With deputies assigned to transport prisoners, serve warrants and other duties, only one patrol car is assigned to patrol the entire county of 720 square miles.

"I did the best with what they (the county commissioners) gave me. If it wasn't enough, don't blame me, don't blame this department," said Sheriff Billy Johnson.

***snip***

The Ashtabula County Jail has confined as many as 140 prisoners. It now houses only 30 because of reductions in the staff of corrections officers.

All told, 700 accused criminals are on a waiting list to serve time in the jail.

Are there dangerous people free among the 700 who cannot be locked up?

"There probably are," Sheriff Johnson said, "but I'm telling you, any known violent criminal, we're housing them. We've got murderers in there."

Ashtabula County is the largest county in Ohio by land area.

Ashtabula County Common Pleas Judge Alfred Mackey was asked what residents should do to protect themselves and their families with the severe cutback in law enforcement.

"Arm themselves," the judge said. "Be very careful, be vigilant, get in touch with your neighbors, because we're going to have to look after each other."

Ashtabula County gun dealers and firearms instructors tell WKYC their business has really picked up since the Sheriff's Department cutbacks began some months ago.
http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=133951&catid=3 emphasis added

In this ongoing recession, many police departments across the country are cutting back. Some feel that the Second Amendment was written to only apply to a "well regulated" militia. I disagree. RKBA was designed to allow the average citizen to exercise the right to use firearms for self defense against the criminal element as well as invading armies or a tyrannical government that had replaced the government the founding fathers had established for our country.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- /i]Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

-- Thomas Jefferson

[sui generis]

1. Great. Vigilantes step up.

Seriously, and I mean this with deadly earnestness:

Try that here.

Go ahead and try to exercise your right to defend my property by coming on my property to look for a burglar, I fucking dare you.

If you aren't deputized, in the legal sense of the word, and carrying a badge, you will be leaving my property feet first, unless they turn the body bag around by accident.

[Euromutt]

3. And this is relevant how?

Because if you read that article again, you might notice that one of the three armed men is the owner of the property, and was the one who discovered Nash and his sawed-off shotgun.

Nobody's advocating exercising their putative right to police your property; only their own property.

Jeez, and people call the gun owners on this forum paranoid. Need I also point that you've expressed the intention to kill someone for a misdemeanor (namely, second-degree trespass)?

[sui generis]

19. well in Texas my neighbor actually CAN come onto my property

and shoot and kill a burglar. Presumably all he has to do is claim he believed I was being "burgled" and secure my property on my behalf. It's not tinfoil - it's reality.

Vigilantes are outlaws. If you're not wearing a badge you damn well better not be carrying a weapon on my property. The relevance is if it CAN be abused it will be abused, and good intentions notwithstanding I don't need the crazy 95 year old half blind republican fuck down the street to come chase the brown people off my lawn with a gun or ask to see their papers, when I'm paying them to do my landscaping and exterior maintenance.

Mostly I just hate these self-congratulatory stories. There are consequences to precedent, if even just from some yokel reading this twittery and deciding he now finally has an excuse to go be a hero himself, and quite frankly I DO live in the wild wild west, and I don't like it.

Whether any "responsible" gun owner on DU likes it or not, you are not the standard for sanity in the real world. I have nutcases living right in my neighborhood who think we're in a racial and class war surrounded by gang bangers and drug dealers and illegal immigrants who feel the need to brandish at every opportunity.

[spin]

4. Did you notice this fact in the article ...

John Kusar Jr., Austinburg Township trustee and owner of the property on which Nash was discovered, said he and two other men armed themselves after Kusar searched the camper and found Nash sleeping there with the gun.

The article didn't state that Nash owned the camper, in fact he was described as a "homeless man".

[TPaine7]

7. I'm impressed.

Seriously, and I mean that with deadly earnestness.

Internet tough guys are soooooooo awesome. Go on with your bad self!

[sui generis]

20. You never say anything at all of any substance.

I was worried you were going to disappoint me this time, but you're the best!!!!

:bird:

[jazzhound]

21. "You never say anything at all of any substance."

This is such an easily refutable statement that you appear an enormous ass for making it.

[sui generis]

22. really? When has old yeller ever said anything topical to me?

Prove your words, or stop responding to other peoples' posts.

[PavePusher]

15. Your hat...

that foil looks wrapped a leeeeetle to tight there, friend... :tinfoilhat:

[sui generis]

18. nah. Only the nutcases respond

but thanks for biting.

[Kolesar]

2. Nash is a frightful freak. We need laws to keep guns out of the hands of frightful freaks

"Get in touch with your neighbors" is better advice than "be paranoid and twitchy".

[Euromutt]

5. An excellent suggestion

It would be nice to be able to count on your neighbors to help out when there's some weirdo with a sawed-off shotgun dossing on your property.

You did notice the little detail of the sawed-off shotgun, right? As in "violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934"? I mean, if you were suggesting that it's "paranoid and twitchy" to react badly to someone trespassing on your property while in possession of a hideously illegal firearm, then what does that make someone who gets their panties in a bunch about the idea of someone walking along a public thoroughfare with a handgun that he has a license to carry concealed?

[safeinOhio]

6. People do what they have to do.

Stay with in the law and don't try to be judge and jury. I have no problem with that.

[Kolesar]

8. Sad

Projection, totally! These are your words:

...if you were suggesting that it's "paranoid and twitchy" to react badly to someone trespassing on your property while in possession of a hideously illegal firearm, then what does that make someone who gets their panties in a bunch about the idea of someone walking along a public thoroughfare with a handgun that he has a license to carry concealed?

[Euromutt]

16. Hey, *I'm* not the one who insinuated anyone was "paranoid and twitchy"

You were the one to use that phrase. If you weren't referring to the property owner with that, who were you referring to?

[spin]

11. There should be no reason to "get paranoid and twitchy" ...

about any one carrying concealed. The weapon should be "concealed"!!!!

I've carried concealed for years. No one has ever noticed. I'm damn careful to make sure I never expose my firearm.

It's not real difficult, as most people never notice ANYTHING about people they pass on the street. They are too busy lost in their own affairs or talking on the ubiquitous cell phone. I have however had numerous conversations with police officers, who are far more alert. None seemed aware that I was "packing heat".

Not surprising since I carry a S&W Model 642 snub nosed revolver in a pocket holster which stops it from "printing". In the winter I carry a 3" model 60 revolver in an inside the waistband holster with a long jacket covering it.


S&W Model 642 Airweight


Model 60 .38/.357 magnum

[spin]

9. We have such laws. Obviously in this case they didn't work ...

The individual involved in the case had a prior arrest record.

According to the report, Nash was arrested recently for other burglaries: On July 17, Nash was arrested after people attending a block party in Austinburg Township came home to find him in their garage with stolen property from their residence. On June 21, Nash was arrested for burglary at a Clay Street residence.

To be fair, he might not have convicted of these crimes. Obviously the legal system in Ashtabula County has problems.

With a lack of police, the wise judge advised the citizens to arm themselves. In this case, everything worked out well.

If an honest citizen in Ashtabula County screws up and plays vigilante with tragic results, it will receive national media attention. If the same citizen protects himself from criminal attack or home invasion, it will merely be local news. You will NOT hear any discussion of this story even on FOX news.

Still, I was raised in Ashtabula County in a rural area. The people that I knew who lived there in the 60s were rational and unlikely to try to play superhero. Even back then, many people were armed with hunting rifles or shotguns. Handguns were not as common.

The citizens in the story showed restraint. They surrounded the trailer and called the police to perform the arrest. Hopefully, other citizens will show the same response. They will be willing to help each other and also help the limited number of police to perform their job.

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. Perhaps a law that would prevent them from owning sawed-off shotguns?

Wait, that's already illegal- and so is burglary. Those little details didn't stop the guy in this case, did they?

Is their some other law, perhaps, that would actually stop those like the Double-Wide Desperado here?


C'mon, don't keep us waiting:

What is the One True Gun Law that will prevent this sort of thing?

Take your time, we'll wait....

[Kolesar]

12. jail

...or probation, threaten to return him to jail if he possesses a gun.

Serious sentencing would wise up stupid, antisocial creeps like him by the millions.

[shadowrider]

13. Stop possessing that gun illegally or I shall be forced to say stop again

Come on, you can't be serious with the jail / probation / threat to return to jail, are you?

[spin]

14. Agreed. Unfortunately Ashtabula County has only 30 people ...

in a jail that could hold 140 prisoners because of budget restrictions. They also have a 'waiting list" of 700 people.

Hopefully, possession of a sawed off 12 gauge shotgun will warrant moving him to a prison with more capacity. If not, you will probably read another story were he finally kills someone.

Current gun control laws are reasonably fair in most areas of our country. What we need now is serious enforcement.

I believe that we now need to focus gun control on people who own, illegally carry or straw purchase firearms for resale. I agree that truly serious sentencing for those caught violating current laws is a far better solution than passing more "feel good" laws that only inconvenience honest gun owners.

[one-eyed fat man]

17. Hmm, let's see..................

Did your hero give pause over laws against burglary?

Was he deterred by the law against sawed off shotguns?

Was he mildly annoyed by the stricture against felons possessing firearms?

Did he appear worried being caught with a gun might return him to prison?

Will he be devastated to know that the Grizzly Adams of Metroparks called him an antisocial creep?

It appears from the story that the only thing that might have dissuaded his fleeting thought of resisting arrest was the certainty of being fitted with a toe tag by the coroner.