What do a taco vendor, a judge and a Iraq vet have in common

[oneshooter]

Heard the one about the judge, the taco vendor, the pistol-packing Iraq war vet and the thief on roller blades?
It apparently happened Wednesday when Al Diaz of The Miami Herald was preparing to photograph the Taqueria Mexicana Orale taco truck at Northwest 27th Avenue and 17th Street for a feature story. He briefly placed his camera on a chair to set up some lighting equipment.
Seizing the moment, a man on wheels snatched the camera and whooshed down 16th. Someone munching a taco yelled, ``That guy just grabbed your camera!''

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/08/11/1772297/citizens-collar-suspected-thief.html

There was a chase, a fight and drawn weapons!!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[tridim]

1. Drawn weapons rock!!!!!11

I just love public gun play, it's so cool!

[SteveM]

40. Ewww! No guns for you. Too enamored of power, macho, cock-strut. nt

[rfranklin]

2. So you would shoot someone for a camera?

What if the guy with the gun made a mistake?

[RandomThoughts]

3. Great point, that is why it is so hard to be mean.

Since it requires perfect judgment. And that is not something people have.

[Warpy]

11. And that means they shouldn't cavalierly carry guns around

Cops and the military are trained in the judgment it takes to use them. Civilians are not.

Just THINK of the crossfire!

[X_Digger]

12. "think" is all you have because reality doesn't agree

You have to imagine scenarios, because with 6 million people with concealed carry licenses, there hasn't been an increase in bystanders being shot.

Where's all the "blood-in-the-streets" that was predicted?

[PavePusher]

41. Actually, "think" is exactly what s/he didn't bother to do. n/t

[shadowrider]

13. Well, it certainly didn't take long for the "Only cops and the military should have guns

because they're trained" argument.

Sigh

[spin]

17. Reading is fundamental ...

The civilian was on his property. No mention is made of his having a concealed weapons permit. People can and do have firearms inside their homes in Florida. There is no license requirement.

The civilian was an veteran of the war in Iraq. You said that only cops and the military are trained in the judgment to use firearms. Obviously the civilian had the training you mention as he had been in the military. (I happen to disagree with your basic premise. Many civilians who do not have police or military training have legally and successfully used firearms for defense or to stop crime.)

You have taken the story and embellished the hell out of it to make your point.

[TaterSalad]

27. Cops and the military are trained in the judgment it takes to use them.

Timothy Mc Veigh was a soldier

Randy Weaver was a Soldier

Jefferey Dahmer was a soldier

And scariest of all

Chimpy was a soldier (kinda)

You may wish to rethink your premise

They Call Me Tater Salad

[PavePusher]

28. Did you actually read the article?

Your buffoonery says you didn't.

1. The man with the firearm was military trained. (Even though that is not a prerequisite nor a guarantee for responsible behavior.)

2. Who is "cavalier" about bearing arms? Point them out, please.

3. "Civilians are not." Really? And you know this how? Civilians make all manner of life and death decisions many times a day. By far the vast majority get it right every time.

4. "Just THINK of the crossfire!" Hypotheticals are all you have? Seriously? Please demonstrate that this has been a statistically significant problem. I'll go solve world hunger while I wait for you to find the evidence.

[RandomThoughts]

34. Yea I worked on software for judgement training for police and military.

Use to work for a company that did that.

I think within systems that are not perfect there has to be an attempt to decide, but most know that system is not perfect, so best attempts at protections from it being about judging and not justice should be made.

Things like checks and balances, juries, judges protecting rights, while majorities elect representatives.

And with police there are many concepts to keep them from thinking they judge, ideas of rules of rights and limitations on what they can do so they don't fall into the trap of targeted justice, where instead of arresting someone that did wrong, they find someone they think is wrong, then look for something they can arrest them for. Targeted justice is a cop taking the role of judge and jury. And targeted justice is not justice.

[Glassunion]

36. Ahhhhhh! Hahahaha!!!!1!!!! Yes, yes... They are trained in good judgement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1_EoRZOVes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOVku86WfVg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI9ahGxMfk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aed_rLObEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLW7OPft-44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jZDGIgzAWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9llvTQn8v-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibSwITK4jjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPseyY0Vg0E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KM1ukwBGv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mvIWFXbHNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPRrHYn3TiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoSD79o0cOc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGxi5YeFK_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WRx_KA8624

Why is it that there are between 5 and 6 million people in this country with a CCW, however there are more incidents of poor judgement from the police? There are less than 1 million full time law enforcement officers in the US.

To your comment "Civilians are not.". I digress. Perhaps you should try taking a CCW class. Just take the course, you may be surprised, it may not be what you think it is.

[Callisto32]

37. Because the police are drunk with power?

[SteveM]

39. Could you explain "that is why it is so hard to be mean?"

What kind of motivations are you assigning to people who are trying to stop a crime in action? To the citizen who had a gun? How does "mean" figure into this incident?

I should think fear and anger (no equivalent to meanness) would be the more dominant emotions, here.

[tridim]

4. Good question.

This is gun culture irrationality on full display.

[Riftaxe]

5. Which upsets you more?

That no one was injured, or that the thief was caught?

[tridim]

6. That guns are drawn in public to defend a video camera.

And that people such as yourself consider that rational.

Would you defend your iPod with a gun? Do you have any concern at all for the potential death of innocent bystanders?

[Riftaxe]

7. You know what i consider rational...

You pretend to be psychic and talk about rationality?

Now back to the article, how many innocent bystanders died?

Apparently none, does it not concern you that those same innocent bystanders could have been abducted by aliens, yet you have not declared your self anti-Extraterrestrial yet!

The "what if" game is wonderful and completely meaningless.


You will need to flesh out the ipod scenario a bit more, ipod's don't steal themselves, if you want an answer.

[tridim]

10. Your iPod is stolen by someone..

Someone else tells you that a guy in a green shirt stole it and ran off that way.

You draw your gun and a chase insues.

Green shirt guy loses you for a brief moment during the chase.

You turn the corner and see five people with green shirts within a crowd of hundreds.

Your gun is now drawn and pointing into the crowd, what do you do?

What do you expect the other CCW citizens to do to you?

[X_Digger]

15. You do realize, don't you..

.. that the guy chasing the thief didn't have a gun, right? That it was the {trained} Iraq vet on whose lawn they landed?

[oneshooter]

18. Yes someone steals your $5000 I Pod

That you depend on to make your living.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[tridim]

19. Yes what? You'd fire into the crowd?

[oneshooter]

20. There was no "crowd", There were no shots fired, There was no one hurt.n/t

[PavePusher]

30. Stop. Making. Things. Up. n/t

[rfranklin]

21. Which, if you are a business person, is insured for theft....

It still doesn't justify deadly force. As a gun owner, I believe that you should not point a gun at someone unless you are prepared to use it.

[PavePusher]

31. You're sure he had insurance?

For full replacement costs?

May I borrow your omnicience?

[rfranklin]

38. If he didn't , he shouldn't be in business...

As a professional photographer, I have to compete with people who don't carry insurance, don't have backup equipment, don't carry liability, and don't have a clue how to protect their clients. It's frustrating for me and sometimes heartbreaking for the clients.

[rfranklin]

24. Man shoots at iPhone thieves...

Gresham man arrested after allegedly shooting at phone thieves
Citizen chased after suspects who stole iPhones
By Shannon Wells

Gresham police arrested a city resident after he admitted firing a gun at suspects in a merchandise theft at an AT&T phone store at 533 N.W. Division St. on Tuesday night, May 25,

Roger L. Witter, 48, of Gresham, a customer at the store when two suspects apparently stole several iPhones around 7:45 Tuesday, was taken into custody after police learned he fired at least two shots as the suspects sped away the store in Gresham Station on Northwest Civic Drive in a silver Chrysler.

No one was apparently injured in the incident, but Witter was arrested on allegations of unlawful use of a weapon, reckless endangerment, disorderly conduct and unlawful discharge of a firearm.

http://www.theoutlookonline.com/news/print_story.php?story_id=127492175192161500

[TaterSalad]

26. I don't think the vet was defending a video camera

I think he was breaking up a fight

They Call Me Tater Salad

[PavePusher]

29. Actually, a gun was drawn to stop a violent confrontation.

The property owner only knew someone appeared to be receiving an ass-kicking or possible injury/death. Not knowing the entire situation, he did exactly the right thing by having everyone stop and explain.

What's the problem here, other than a severe lack of reading comprehension on your part?

[spin]

8. Did you read the article? ...

The minivan overtook a roller-blader at 3071 NW 18th Ter. Christopher bounded out of the car and ``pounced like a cobra'' on the skater, said Amanda. Gonzales, the taco maker, joined the fray.

Ian Vaquero, in whose front yard the chase ended, didn't know what to make of the wrestling match. So the Iraq war vet sorted things out the Miami way, drawing his 9mm Smith & Wesson and telling everyone to freeze.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/08/11/1772297/citizens-collar-suspected-thief.html

It doesn't sound like the gun owner had any idea of what was happening. I am not passing judgment on his decision to draw a firearm in the situation as I was not there. However, it's unlikely that he knew that the mess started with a stolen camera.

[Riftaxe]

9. Sounds like no one was injured

And things were properly sorted out in the end. It's the hostility to the article that perplexes me, the news is rife with stories of firearms/knife and ad hoc weapons abuse, choosing this one to condom condemn a "gun culture" seems a bit of a stretch, and i have no clue what outcome of this incident you would have preferred?

:P edited to fix Freudian typo....

[spin]

16. I agree that all's well that ends well ...

However many instructors who teach concealed weapons classes in Florida emphasize the importance of never drawing your firearm unless you intend to shoot. It often escalates the situation.

Often real life encounters end peacefully when the mere presence of a firearm is revealed. No shots are fired. Each situation is different.

If I walked out my front door and found three people wrestling on the sidewalk, I might go back inside to call 911 and grab my concealed weapon. Since I would have no idea of what was happening, I would be hesitant to get involved. For all I would know, one or more of the brawlers might be a undercover or off duty police officer performing his duty.

If the fight turned into a situation where a person was about to be seriously injured or killed, I would then attempt to stop the attack.

I wasn't there. I refuse to criticize the gun owner. He was on the scene and made his decision based on his observations. He did well.

The hostility to the article expressed by some posters seems to due to a misconception that the gun owner was aware that a stolen camera was involved. Technically, once a thief runs from the scene of a crime and is pursued and attacked, he has every right to defend himself. A firearm should be used for self defense in the case of an attack that could result in serious injury or death. Once the crime is over, the threat is gone.

[rfranklin]

22. No, the criticism is aimed at the people who post cheerleading....

comments about gun use just to provoke extended threads like this one.

[spin]

25. An equal number post negative comments about gun use ...

to provoke extended threads.

If both sides stopped posting such comments this would be a boring place to visit. If those who opposed firearms were the only people to make original posts that backed their viewpoint, the Gungeon would be like a forum on the Brady Campaign's web site. If only pro-RKBA posters started such posts, the Gungeon would look like the multitude of gun forums on the web.

I can post on at least a dozen pro-RKBA sites where most posters agree with my viewpoint. That's a waste of my time as I learn nothing. I come here for the challenge and the back and forth of a good debate. Often I learn information that I would never have been exposed to on a pro-RKBA site.

The Gungeon is a fairly unique forum on the web.

[PavePusher]

33. Please explain what is wrong...

with "cheerleading" honest Citizens legally using firearms to engage/resist/stop criminals.

I'll wait.....

[lepus]

35. depends on the state

Most states, a thief has no right to self defense during a robbery, even after he has fled the immediate scene. This means that if he swings at the property owner attempting to regain his property, it is assault and another charge to stack on him.

[mvccd1000]

42. Drawing vs. Shooting

I'm not fully decided on this one. While I've always heard the "Don't draw it until you intend to shoot it" mantra, Arizona recently passed a law protecting the "defensive display" of firearms. After further review, I can imagine scenarios in which this could be beneficial.

If a group of people is fighting on your lawn, hell-bent on killing each other, and your shouts of, "Stop! I have a gun!" aren't slowing them down, PERHAPS drawing the gun (even though you aren't going to immediately follow that action by firing it) may have a greater deterrent effect, so that things settle down to be sorted out.

Just imagine the heads of the GCAs exploding when they hear that your drawn pistol stopped a fight and prevented someone from serious injury, as well as detained a criminal until the police arrived and allowed the return of stolen property.

Can you hear the sound of faith-based arguments shattering as they fall to the floor?

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. When does the TV series come out?

This has all the ingredients of a thriller.

[rfranklin]

23. I think it's on already...called The Smoking Gun Presents World's Dumbest...

This could have been one of their primo episodes.

[Name removed]

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