Jared Diamond ("Guns, Germs and Steel"): "Disarm the populace...

[SteveM]

and arm the elite."

Geography Professor and author of the blockbuster "Guns, Germs, and Steel," lists this at the top of a four-solution list facing "Kleptocrats throughout the ages." The other solutions for successfully "gain support while still maintaining a more comfortable lifestyle than commoners":

"Makes the masses happy by redistributing much of the tribute received, in popular ways...", "Use the monopoly of force to promote happiness, by maintaining public order and curbing violence...", and "...construct an ideology or religion justifying kleptocracy."

This latter solution involves establishing patriotism as a motivating force with which to justify and brace armed forces for battles of conquest and defense.

It is unclear whether Diamond embraces these solutions in his personal ideology, but it is frank recognition of how the big boys do it once society moves through bands, tribes, chiefdoms into the final stage of states.

Good book, but no comment is made about how the "leading" modern state/kleptocracy gets along with such a huge number of arms in the hands of over a third of its population.

"Guns, Germs, and Steel," Diamond, Jared, W. W. Norton & Co., N.Y., 1997, pp. 276-7

[ixion]

1. "Use the monopoly of force to promote happiness..."

Oh, yeah, that'll work. :eyes:

Has this idiot ever picked up a history book?

[izquierdista]

5. More than you have

He tells it as he observes it. And some of his observations are none too comforting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IESYMFtLIis

[ixion]

11. apparently not

because the elite forcing their will on the masses has never resulted in long-term happiness for either, and invariably leads decline.

[Euromutt]

13. Maybe so, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen

Bear in mind that Diamond's statements there are descriptive, not prescriptive. He's describing methods used by elites to keep themselves in power, regardless of whether those methods worked in the long term or not.

And certainly in the short to intermediate term, providing and maintaining public order does go a hell of a long way towards keeping the bulk of the populace inclined to keep you on as ruler. See the "What have the Romans ever done for us?" exchange from Monty Python's Life of Brian: http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html

I suggest you read the paragraphs following the quoted passage (you can find the page here: http://books.google.com/books?id=kLKTa_OeoNIC&pg=PA277#v=onepage&q&f=false) and see whether you still think Diamond is an idiot.

[rrneck]

17. Well after a quick glance at wiki...

Average life expectancy in the early twentieth century was between 30 and 45 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

So lets see how the robber barons did in terms of "making it last".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jacob_Astor
John Jacob Astor (July 17, 1763 – March 29, 1848), born Johann Jakob or Johann Jacob Astor, was the first prominent member of the Astor family and the first multi-millionaire in the United States. He was the creator of the first trust in America, from which he made his fortune in fur trading, real estate and opium.

Died at 85

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnegie
Andrew Carnegie (properly pronounced /kɑrˈneɪɡi/ (kar-NAY-gee), but commonly, /ˈkɑrnɨɡi/ or /kɑrˈnɛɡi/)<1> (25 November 1835 – 11 August 1919) was a Scottish-American industrialist, businessman, entrepreneur and a major philanthropist.

Died at 84

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Cooke
Jay Cooke ( August 10, 1821 – February 16, 1905 ), American financier, was born at Sandusky, Ohio, the son of Eleutheros Cooke (1787–1864), a pioneer Ohio lawyer and Whig member of Congress from that state in 1831-1833 and member of the Ohio General Assembly.

Died at 84

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Crocker
Charles Crocker (16 September 1822 – 14 August 1888) was an American railroad executive.

Died at 66

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Drew
Daniel Drew (July 29, 1797 – September 18, 1879) was an American financier.

Died at 82

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Buchanan_Duke
James Buchanan Duke (December 23, 1856 – October 10, 1925) was a U.S. tobacco and electric power industrialist best known for his involvement with Duke University.

Died at 69

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Fisk_%28financier%29
James Fisk, Jr. (April 1, 1835 – January 6, 1872), known variously as "Big Jim," "Diamond Jim," and "Jubilee Jim," was an American stock broker and corporate executive.

Died at 37 Fisk was vilified by high society for his amoral and eccentric ways and by many pundits of the day for his business dealings, but was loved and mourned by the workingmen of New York and the Erie Railroad. The good die young.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morrison_Flagler
Henry Morrison Flagler (January 2, 1830 – May 20, 1913) was an American tycoon, real estate promoter, railroad developer and partner of John D. Rockefeller in Standard Oil. He was a key figure in the development of the eastern coast of Florida along the Atlantic Ocean and was founder of what became the Florida East Coast Railway. He is known as the father of Miami, Florida and also founded Palm Beach, Florida.<1>

Died at 83

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Clay_Frick
Henry Clay Frick (December 19, 1849 – December 2, 1919) was a successful American industrialist and art patron, once known by his critics as "America's most hated man".<1> The defunct Portfolio.com named Frick as one of the "Worst American CEOs of All Time".<2>

Died at 70

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Warne_Gates
John Warne Gates (May 18, 1855 – August 9, 1911), also known as "Bet-a-Million" Gates, was a pioneer promoter of barbed wire who became a Gilded Age industrialist. Gates was born in Winfield, Illinois and married Delora R. Baker of St. Charles, Illinois in 1874. The couple had one son, Charles Gilbert Gates.

Died at 56

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Gould
Jason "Jay" Gould (May 27, 1836 – December 2, 1892) was an American financier who became a leading American railroad developer and speculator. Although he has long been vilified as an archetypal robber baron, whose successes made him the ninth richest American in history,<1> some modern historians working from primary sources have discounted various myths about him.<2><3>

Died at 56

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._H._Harriman
Edward Henry Harriman (20 February 1848 – 9 September 1909) was an American railroad executive.

Died at 61

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_S._Hershey
Milton Snavely Hershey (September 13, 1857 – October 13, 1945) was a confectioner, philanthropist, and founder of The Hershey Chocolate Company and the “company town” of Hershey, Pennsylvania.

Died at 88

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hopkins_%28railroad%29
Mark Hopkins, Jr. (September 1, 1813 – March 29, 1878) was one of four principal investors who formed the Central Pacific Railroad along with Leland Stanford, Charles Crocker, and Collis Huntington in 1861.

Died at 65

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._P._Morgan
John Pierpont Morgan, Sr. (April 17, 1837 - March 31, 1913) was an American financier, banker and art collector who dominated corporate finance and industrial consolidation during his time. In 1892 Morgan arranged the merger of Edison General Electric and Thomson-Houston Electric Company to form General Electric. After financing the creation of the Federal Steel Company he merged the Carnegie Steel Company and several other steel and iron businesses to form the United States Steel Corporation in 1901.

Died at 76

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_B._Plant
Henry Bradley Plant (October 27, 1819 - June 23, 1899), was involved with many transportation projects, mostly railroads, in the U.S. state of Florida. Eventually he owned the Plant System of railroads which became part of the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad. Plant City, located near Tampa, was named after him.

Died at 80

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller
John Davison Rockefeller (July 8, 1839 – May 23, 1937) was an American oil magnate. Rockefeller revolutionized the petroleum industry and defined the structure of modern philanthropy. In 1870, he founded the Standard Oil Company and aggressively ran it until he officially retired in 1897.<1> Standard Oil began as an Ohio partnership formed by John D. Rockefeller, his brother William Rockefeller, Henry Flagler, Jabez Bostwick, chemist Samuel Andrews, and a silent partner, Stephen V. Harkness. As kerosene and gasoline grew in importance, Rockefeller's wealth soared, and he became the world's richest man and first American worth more than a billion dollars.<2> Adjusting for inflation, he is often regarded as the richest person in history.<3><4><5><6>

Died at 98

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Spreckels
John Diedrich Spreckels (August 16, 1853–June 7, 1926), the son of German-American industrialist Claus Spreckels, founded a transportation and real estate empire in San Diego, California in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The entrepreneur's many business ventures in the City of San Diego, California included the Hotel del Coronado and the San Diego and Arizona Railway, both of which are credited with helping the City develop into a major commercial center.

Died at 73

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Stanford
Amasa Leland Stanford<1> (March 9, 1824 – June 21, 1893) was an American tycoon, robber baron, politician and founder of Stanford University

Died at 69

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Vanderbilt
Cornelius Vanderbilt (May 27, 1794 – January 4, 1877), also known by the sobriquet Commodore,<1> was an American entrepreneur. He built his wealth in shipping and railroads and was the patriarch of the Vanderbilt family and one of the richest Americans in history.

Died at 83

Looks like it's good go be da king.

[SteveM]

6. I don't find much in his 4 solutions in variance with "The Prince."

Have you read the book? Using a monopoly of force to effect "social solutions" is foundational in keeping a kleptocracy intact, and much of that involves some notion of "happiness" (known in some circles as "social engineering"). Whether it is successful or not is another matter, but the effort is made.

I suspect Diamond has read a ton of history.

[PavePusher]

7. I haven't read the entire book...

but I don't recall that he claims this is a benevolent or long-term solution. Note the cycles of civil-strife vs. bread-and-circuses in the Roman Empire...

[ixion]

12. Note what happened when the bread ran out

it never works.

[Callisto32]

19. I'm backing ixion on this one. Diamond isn't quite as shiny as he may seem.

While some of his ideas have merit, Diamond is, in my eyes, the worst kind of "intellectual."

I got a chance to meet him when my undergrad U paid him an inordinate amount of our tuition to come speak and attend a meal thing. He was fine so long as you agreed with him 100%.

When students and staff questioned his ideas, though, he became hostile. He did the "I'll put you down in a way that seems like banter" but the message was clear. "I'm Jared Diamond, and I know all there is to know about society, how dare a 21 year old question mah authroitay?!" I grew disgusted with him quickly, and left.

[ixion]

20. Thanks, Callisto32

Much appreciated. :hi:

I had professors like this in college as well. They were fine until you started to question their logic, at which point they turned hostile and shut you down.

I agree that they are the worst kind of intellectual, because they're only quasi-intellectual.

[rrneck]

24. Offhand I think that the human race

has never learned to manage a surplus of resources for any length of time. We seem to be constantly outsmarting ourselves.

Maybe ignorance truly is bliss.

[rrneck]

16. Probably

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Diamond

Awards and honors

* 1961–1965 Prize Fellowship in Physiology, Trinity College, Cambridge, England
* 1968–1971 Lederle Medical Faculty Award
* 1972 Distinguished Teaching Award, UCLA Medical Class
* 1973 Distinguished Teaching Award, UCLA Medical Class
* 1975 Distinguished Achievement Award, American Gastroenterological Association
* 1976 Kaiser Permanente/Golden Apple Teaching Award
* 1976 Nathaniel Bowditch Prize, American Physiological Society
* 1978 American Ornithologists Union, elected fellow
* 1979 Franklin L. Burr Award, National Geographic Society
* 1985 MacArthur Foundation “Genius” Grant
* 1989 Archie Carr Medal
* 1990 MacArthur Foundation Fellow
* 1992 Tanner Lecturer, University of Utah and many other endowed lectureships
* 1992 Rhône-Poulenc Prize for Science Books for The Third Chimphanzee<4>
* 1992 Los Angeles Times Science Book Prize<5>
* 1993 Zoological Society of San Diego Conservation Medal
* 1994 Skeptics Society, Randi Award
* 1995 Honorary doctor of literature, Sejong University, Korea
* 1996 Faculty Research Lecturer, UCLA
* 1997 Phi Beta Kappa Science Book Prize for Guns, Germs and Steel
* 1998 Pulitzer Prize for Guns, Germs and Steel
* 1998 Elliott Coues Award, American Ornithologists' Union
* 1998 California Book Awards, Gold Medal in nonfiction for Guns, Germs and Steel
* 1998 Aventis Prize for Science Books for Guns, Germs and Steel<4>
* 1998 International Cosmos Prize<1>
* 1999 Lannan Literary Award for Nonfiction
* 1999 National Medal of Science
* 2001 Tyler Prize for Environmental Achievement
* 2002 Lewis Thomas Prize for Writing about Science
* 2006 Royal Society Prize for Science Books for Collapse<4>
* 2006 Dickson Prize in Science
* 2008 Ph.D. Honoris Causa at the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, BelgiumText

[ixion]

18. My dad has a doctorate in Zoology, and still thinks Bush was an 'honorable' guy

That he has received praise in academic circles for supporting the elite is no big surprise. Institutionalized academia reward supporting the status quo, and exile anyone who thinks otherwise.

[rrneck]

21. Then bring your own extensive

credentials to bear and refute what he says in the book.

[ixion]

22. I have been doing just that

in between your personal swipes.

I see no reason to read off my credentials to you. Suffice to say that I am an educated, well-read citizen, and as such am able to state my opinions freely.

And as evidence for my thesis I site the decline and fall of every civilization in history that tried to quell the populace by force.

[rrneck]

23. In my experience people that have to use their credentials

to make a point don't have a point. I'm sure you're educated and well read. I certainly don't need to hear your resume. The first "swipe" in the thread appeared in post #1 - yours. My response was to show that Diamond, whether he is right or wrong, probably has read a history book.

It is axiomatic that all civilizations eventually grind to failure regardless who runs them or how. I think it is equally axiomatic that the bulk of those populating ruling cadres that brutalize their people for their own profit die peacefully in their beds rather than at the hands of a vengeful mob. If that weren't the case they wouldn't try it and get away with it with such frequency.

You appear to have missed the point of the OP. The most successful Kleptocrats don't have to use force to brutalize their people. That only happens on the cusp of inevitable failure.

"Makes the masses happy by redistributing much of the tribute received, in popular ways...", "Use the monopoly of force to promote happiness, by maintaining public order and curbing violence...", and "...construct an ideology or religion justifying kleptocracy."

And that's probably why your father with a doctorate in zoology thought W was an honorable guy.

[ixion]

25. I appreciate your response

and that you're willing to discuss.

Julius Caesar tried redistributing the wealth of Rome, and the nobles killed him on the Senate floor, so it doesn't always work out that way, but it's true enough that many of the wealthy elite have died peacefully in their sleep. :)

[rrneck]

26. I must admit that there are times

when I would like to see more angry mobs in the streets with pitchforks, and be there among them. I truly don't know why humans, for all our brains, can't seem to learn to manage their own greed in a world of such abundance. I agree, we're all too often willing to kill each other for wealth we can't meaningfully use. :hi:

[Euromutt]

29. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, do you?

Where do you get the idea that Diamond is "supporting the elite" or the status quo in his book? The very fact that he refers to states as kleptocracies ("rule by thieves") should be sufficient evidence right there that he doesn't. He simply describes the techniques used by the ruling elites of chiefdoms and states to get the general populace to put up with a leadership that takes away part of their crop, or catch, or salary and retains a certain amount of it to maintain for itself a standard of living higher than that of the general populace. Diamond doesn't speak approvingly of these techniques, nor odes he assert that they are guaranteed to work indefinitely (and certainly, there's no reason they should work against coups, which are committed by other members of the elite); he simply describes that this is what chiefdoms and states have done throughout history.

[Caliman73]

2. I would imagine that it is a number of things

that you stated. The US does it better than most. Keeping the masses at a minimum standard of living acceptable so as not to cause major disruptions. Those who cause disruption are painted as outliers with some defect and are ostracized. Having security forces that have overwhelming technical capabilities from the average citizen does not hurt either. We are under control here despite our access to firearms. It is a longer leash than most but still a leash. Most of us are invested in maintaining the lifestyles we have despite the precarious nature of such.

[dixiegrrrrl]

8. I agree.

Well stated.

[enough]

3. Strangely, living in an area where almost everybody is armed (including my household),

I don't think the populace will go after the "elites." They don't even know they should be mad at the "elites." They will start shooting people who are another color or religion before they will go after the "elites."

Just to clarify, we're all armed here because everybody hunts.

It would be interesting to have a link in your OP.

[SteveM]

4. I assumed most folks were aware of this book; I have a hard copy...

"Guns, Germs, and Steel," Diamond, Jared. W.W. Norton & Co., N.Y., 1997, pp. 276-7

[enough]

10. Yes, we know the book, just helps to have a link if you're quoting text, for context, especially

when it's not entirely clear what point you're making in the OP.

[SteveM]

27. 2 points:

(1) Disarming the civilian populace, and arming the elites of the state/kleptocracy, is standard operating procedure for his final stage of governance (the first 3 being "bands," "tribes," and "chiefdoms").

(2) Little attention was paid to the "exceptionalism," if you will, of the U.S. which has a Constitutionally-protected individual right to keep and bear arms; a right widely practiced. This would seem to be a fly in the ointment of his thesis, but we are left speculating whether or not Diamond thinks an armed civilian population is significant.

[spin]

9. Does Jared Diamond feel that the "elite" is superior to the "populace" ...

if so, I fear we have seen the same thing many times in history. It usually doesn't end well.

Still the book has a wide spread of ratings on Amazon.com. It might be worth reading.


1,168 Reviews

5 star: (543)

4 star: (305)

3 star: (134)

2 star: (80)

1 star: (106)

As far as how the "leading" modern state/kleptocracy gets along with such a huge number of arms in the hands of over a third of its population., we seem to do just fine. Obviously there are some problems, most of which are caused by the criminal element which will always have access to firearms despite what laws are passed.

Any attempt to confiscate all firearms from the average citizens in our country while allowing the elite to own them would lead to a revolution. While it might not succeed, the resulting bloodshed and turmoil would cause significant problems to our relatively peaceful society .

[Euromutt]

14. It's descriptive, not prescriptive

The question Diamond is attempting to answer is why anyone would put up with a repressive government, the members of which supply themselves with a higher standard of living than the general populace by extracting wealth from the general populace. One of those reasons is if the elite can institute a massive disparity of force between themselves and the general populace.

Heh. I notice that last time I read the book for a college course I was taking, I flagged the paragraph about maintaining public order.

[spin]

15. Interesting. I'll have to put that book on my list to read. (n/t)

[SteveM]

28. From the book, I haven't seen any indication that Diamond favors the "elite"...

over the "populace." I did a little Google search to try and plumb that notion, and his views on civilian gun ownership, but could find none. One 2A website featured a column by someone who claimed Diamond favored the state's monopoly on arms, but did not cite ANY source to back up his contention; I think the writer was just maneuvering about to force-fit another attack on a "liberal."

Diamond did contend that it was/is much easier to disarm citizens today since firearms require highly-developed technical manufacturing and factories, as opposed to making your own spears, bows, and knives a la yesteryear. I think he over-blows the dichotomy since manufacturing (including metal working) has grown smaller, faster, cheaper like many other industrial sectors; in short, making guns is rather old hat and given the level of diffused knowledge about guns and their modifications, would be hard to "stamp out." And then there is smuggling.