EPA Considering Ban on Traditional Ammunition

[shadowrider]

With the fall hunting season fast approaching, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under Lisa Jackson, who was responsible for banning bear hunting in New Jersey, is now considering a petition by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) – a leading anti-hunting organization – to ban all traditional ammunition under the Toxic Substance Control Act of 1976, a law in which Congress expressly exempted ammunition.

If the EPA approves the petition, the result will be a total ban on all ammunition containing lead-core components, including hunting and target-shooting rounds. The EPA must decide to accept or reject this petition by November 1, 2010, the day before the midterm elections.

Today, the EPA has opened to public comment the CBD petition. The comment period ends on October 31, 2010.

http://www.ammoland.com/

[Angry Dragon]

1. Almost seems to me a different agenda

[villager]

2. the lead is poisonous to scavengers...

...who eat the discarded carcasses... Major factor in the decline of Condors in the west (a 1 - 2 punch along with habitat loss...)

[GreenStormCloud]

31. If I have to shoot a thug in self-defense,..

...I don't think he will lay on the ground long enough for buzzards to make a meal of him.

I have never seen any Condors munching on paper targets at a firing range either.

[villager]

33. I get that you're all for broadcasting poison

...and that even alternative ammo won't do.

But the facts contributing to Condor extinction remain the facts. I mean, not that you're troubled by those.

[Euromutt]

52. Well, GreenStormCloud lives in Texas

You'll have to excuse those of us who live two states away from the nearest California condor habitat refuse to get overly concerned about the risk presented by our bullets to California condors.

Frankly, I'm fine with limiting the amount of lead that enters the environment from hunting. I don't have a problem with prohibiting the discharge of lead ammunition in the vicinity of open bodies of water, and requiring waterfowl hunters to use lead-free shot. Of course, I do have the luxury that, like ~80% of gun owners, I don't hunt. I don't even shoot trap/skeet. Every bullet and shotgun pellet I have fired since I became a gun owner has been at ranges, indoor and outdoor, and has ended up in the range's backstop. It's less than evident to me that the lead-cored bullets I send downrange form an environmental hazard, and why the EPA should ban them.

[Remmah2]

55. Recycling

Lead is easily reclaimed and recycled from ranges. Copper/lead bullets can be reclaimed and recycled as well.

[PavePusher]

57. Self-delete, answered elsewhere. n/t

[benEzra]

38. If they were proposing to ban use of lead-core ammo *FOR HUNTING*...

you might have a point.

However, trying to ban the 99.99% of lead-core ammo that is used for purposes other than hunting, as they are attempting to do, is rather convenient. Unless they are just too ignorant to realize that most gun owners aren't hunters and most ammunition is expended in other pursuits.

[jazzhound]

53. I don't trust the control contingent any further than I can

punt a rhino.

However, trying to ban the 99.99% of lead-core ammo that is used for purposes other than hunting, as they are attempting to do, is rather convenient.

Smells like backdoor gun "control" to me.

[PavePusher]

39. Got a cite to the studies for that?

I keep hearing this claim, but have never seen any evidence to support it... TIA.

[villager]

50. You mean like the California Dept. of Fish & Game?

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

[PavePusher]

59. Junk "science" in writing.

"The Department and Commission have concluded that this information,
representing the initial year after adoption of the regulation to prohibit lead
in condor range, is not systematically collected in a manner to effectively
address the reasonable questions related to the Commission’s reporting
requirement. Thus, the information should not be considered conclusive of
any “cause and effect” relationship between the prohibition of lead
projectiles in condor range and blood lead levels detected in condors. In
part, this is because the sources of lead in sampled condors are unknown,
relationships of sampled condors to hunting activity are unknown, and as it
relates to the regulations in place that prohibit lead projectiles in condor
range, the condor feeding habits for this period of time are also unknown.

Notwithstanding the preliminary nature of the data and lack of knowledge
regarding direct causation, the Commission recognizes that blood lead
levels as reported were lower during the second half of 2008 compared to the
first half of 2008. If this initial pattern holds in the future, this should be
beneficial to the recovery of the California condor."


Insufficient evidence for any scientific basis, but they made wild-ass guesses anyway. Yep, that's Califonia all right.

[villager]

64. Junk "writing" in posting

You didn't bother to click on any of the links, did you?

No, you're right -- I'd rather trust your NRA talking points than the actual scientists who spent years studying actual (dead) Condors with lead in their gullets.

Of course you'll call the "waah-bulance" before allowing even the tiniest, teeniest change to what you imagine are your "unfettered" rights to use any type of weapon, any type of ammo, any place and any time.

[oneshooter]

65. And what does the California Condor have to due with Texas ammo? n/t

[villager]

68. It has a lot to do with the OP.

Not that that's, you know, ever a consideration in this forum.

[oneshooter]

72. You seem to be supporting a nationwide ban on lead ammo

based on the California Condor. While I do love long range shooting 1200-1400yds is about my limit. What effect does my cast lead Sharps rounds have to do with the California Condor?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

73. So, you want COMPLETE BAN. EVERYWHERE. Of lead ammo?

[DonP]

81. Condor, mmmm the other white meat.

Can you "beer can" Condor the same as chicken?

Or do you need a bigger can for the bigger bird?

I want to be ready, since Villager seems to suggest they will be migrating to Illinois soon and need to be protected from my lead based rounds.

[PavePusher]

66. "You didn't bother to click on any of the links, did you?"

Ummmm, I quoted the actual report that you linked to.

:shrug:

[shadowrider]

77. HUH???????????????????

Show me one post, just one, and you can go back YEARS, where PP said he has an unfettered right to use any type of weapon, any type of ammo, any place and any time.

Go ahead.

I'll wait.

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. That IS what the "actual scientists" at the link YOU provided said

Didn't read what was there, did you?

The stuff he quoted was from page 3 of this (*.pdf) file:

http://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=21623

A year later (June of this year), they had this to say:

http://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=21622

....The Department and Commission have concluded that this information, representing the second year of data after adoption of the regulation to prohibit lead in condor range, should not be considered conclusive of any "cause and effect" relationship between the prohibition of lead projectiles in condor range and blood lead levels in condors.

BTW, do you have the "tiniest, teeniest" bit of evidence to support the following faith promoting rumor:

Of course you'll call the "waah-bulance" before allowing even the tiniest, teeniest change to what you imagine are your "unfettered" rights to use any type of weapon, any type of ammo, any place and any time

Memus guncontrollus, subspecies "Guns Everywhere". We can only hope that they will become even rarer than the California
condor....

[Hoopla Phil]

84. This sub-thread is so full of fail I'm bookmarking it for future reference. LOL!!!

[friendly_iconoclast]

93. Those who have factose intolerance don't do well in this forum, do they?

And yet they keep coming back for more...

[Hoopla Phil]

100. Yes that seems to hit the mark. On both counts.

[PavePusher]

95. Hello? n/t

[FBaggins]

3. The EPA doesn't have that authority.

Congress would need to act... and even that would likely be seen for what it is (an attempted end-around on constitutional rights).

Few outside of this type of advocacy group will be silly enough to put their name on it.

[CreekDog]

7. Lead

:hi:

no 2nd amendment right to lead.

and let me go farther here...if it were a 2nd amendment right, then congress passing a law wouldn't change that.

i understand not liking or agreeing with an action --you are still obligated to be accurate and truthful though.

[FBaggins]

9. That would be a tough argument to make.

Kind of like saying that you won't ban guns... you just won't license any that are on the "unsafe" list (and then list essentially all guns). Or like saying that you have a constitutional right to an abortion... but we can restrict any/all of the materials or equipment necessary to perform one safely.

if it were a 2nd amendment right, then congress passing a law wouldn't change that.

That's what I said.

i understand not liking or agreeing with an action --you are still obligated to be accurate and truthful though.

Really? Like agreeing that they can restrict lead under the authority of a law that reportedly specifically exempts ammunition (presumably because it is subject to federal tax)? :-)

[shadowrider]

14. you just won't license any that are on the "unsafe" list

Including some, I recall, going back to the mid-1800's.

[FBaggins]

16. Well gee... wouldn't those be the MOST unsafe ones?

I mean... how many miles did you get on a warranty back then?

[shadowrider]

19. The point is, everything made (almost) is on the "unsafe" list n/t

[Remmah2]

56. Damn, are they banning water? nt

nt

[Euromutt]

60. You mean dihydrogen monoxide!

Used in the nuclear power industry, found in pesticides, and it's not coming out of our fruit no matter how much we wash it. It's found in reservoirs across the country, causes excessive sweating and urination, it's a powerful solvent... You get the idea.

[PavePusher]

62. And you can drown in 2 inches of the stuff!

And it's polluting the sky, blocking useful solar power, causes grave environmental damage and destroys houses! It destroyed New Orleans!


When in danger, or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout...

[Remmah2]

63. Thanks for diluting my satire.

:) nt

[PavePusher]

67. Better watch your pH levels... n/t

[Remmah2]

69. You bet your acid I will. nt

nt

[PavePusher]

71. The humour is getting pretty basic around here... n/y

[Glassunion]

75. Perhaps it is an elementary reaction to the level of dialog?

[PavePusher]

80. I'm just trying to balance the equation... n/t

[Glassunion]

83. Perhaps that is where we see your relative error.

[Remmah2]

85. More caustic insults!

Such negatively charged threads.

[PavePusher]

89. It's a polarizing, yet bonding issue.

It's defintely covalent to the gun-"control" movement.

But frankly, it just ionizes me.


Yeah, I don't think I can stretch these out any futher without completely snapping the thread. I'm gonna stop chewing this over before I break a molar.

[Remmah2]

90. Periodically this forum shows a little humor.

Not to mention some elemental truths.

[Glassunion]

91. So I guess the best solution would be to stop?

A suspension of this conversation would be in order.

[friendly_iconoclast]

92. Could be, we seem to have completely plumbed the depths of the subject.

Any more would just compound our problems...

[Remmah2]

94. Are you being reactive?

Or just trying to be nobel?

[shadowrider]

79. Don't you mean, "The humour is getting pretty basic around here..n/yuk, n/yuk, n/yuk

:hide:

[Euromutt]

70. I was homeopathically diluting it

So that actually made the satire stronger! :P

[Callisto32]

82. I prefer hydrogen hydroxide.

Less people have caught on to H(OH) as a classic "gotcha" tactic.

[X_Digger]

15. Here's the relevant section of code-

http://law.onecle.com/uscode/15/2602.html

As used in this chapter:
<snip>
(2)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), the term "chemical
substance" means any organic or inorganic substance of a particular
molecular identity...<snip>
(B) Such term does not include -
<snip>
(v) any article the sale of which is subject to the tax imposed
by section 4181 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 {26 U.S.C.
4181} (determined without regard to any exemptions from such tax
provided by section 4182 or 4221 or any other provision of such
Code)

And 26 U.S.C. 4181 refers to:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/26/D/32/D/III/4181

There is hereby imposed upon the sale by the manufacturer,
producer, or importer of the following articles a tax equivalent to
the specified percent of the price for which so sold:
Articles taxable at 10 percent -
Pistols.
Revolvers.
Articles taxable at 11 percent -
Firearms (other than pistols and revolvers).
Shells, and cartridges.

ie, ammunition is explicitly excluded from the EPA's ability to regulate via 15 USC Section 2602

[shadowrider]

17. See post #10

And keep in mind, you and I are on the same side.

[X_Digger]

25. *nod* just providing the actual text from a non-ammoland source. n/t

[shadowrider]

26. Good deal. I'll let you buy me a beer or six for that one n/t

[CreekDog]

18. First: if you knew that lead was harmful and there were alternatives, would you use them?

:shrug:

[FBaggins]

20. Certainly

If "alternative" means "reasonably similar in quality and price" with a sliding scale of reasonableness depending on HOW harmful it was (keeping in mind that it's already "harmful" to the target).

But that's entirely different from an executive agency, on their own, making that decision for everyone else.

[shadowrider]

21. Second, what are the alternatives that aren't already (or will be*) banned?

*Will be banned, once bullets are made from it.

[FBaggins]

34. I think copper is the next most common.

But then I read "There are several types of heavy metal poisons which affect birds, but the most common are zinc, lead and copper poisoning."

I think that only cotton-candy will be permissible.

[shadowrider]

35. Cotton candy only in liquid form

"Stop or I'll spash you with cotton candy"

yea, that'll make them stop

[PavePusher]

44. Or... spoons.

Mega-points if you can ID the reference... :silly:

[Euromutt]

46. The Blue Rajah?

"We weren't expecting you back so... spoon."

[PavePusher]

48. Not what I was thinking of...

But many points awarded for an alternative!

I'm gonna go groan quietly in the cornor now.... :toast:

[Hoopla Phil]

49. But. . . your costume is not blue.

[Hoopla Phil]

45. Aren't solid copper bullets banned in handguns, as being "armor piercing"?

[X_Digger]

47. Depends on how you read it..

18 USC 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile."


Some gun pundits think that a solid copper round would apply as AP, others disagree.

[Callisto32]

58. Lead is harmful.

But keep in mind that copper is also. The best alternative to lead-core bullets are all-copper. Both are heavy metals.

Lead, lithium, zinc, copper, mercury, arsenic, hexavalent chromium, beryllium, cobalt, nickel, cadmium, arsenic.....et cetera. All are toxic. All are useful.

Heck, water can kill. If we ban everything that might be dangerous, no tools would be left.

[SteveM]

74. Of course. I already do...

At the shooting range, the berms (which serve as backstop) are "mined" periodically by companies who reclaim the lead, usually at no cost to the range or with payment to same. Indoor ranges, with their armored backstop, have the lead collected as well. Even when shooting a deer, the amount of lead (beyond the amount I collect from the carcass) is quite small, and constitutes maybe two dozen rounds a year on the hunting ranchita I use (all hunters combined).

Where lead is dumped in quantity and concentration, and where the medium is conducive to its "spread," then that should not be allowed or practiced. More harm came from the Coast Guard dumping old buoy light batteries into Tampa Bay than generations of hog deer hunters could.

And lead-acid batteries are still legal. In fact, consumers are merely warned on the label to dispose in a safe manner. I bet.

[X_Digger]

24. There's precendent for striking down such regulatory schemes..

Minneapolis Star & Tribune Co. v Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue -- a tax on newsprint and ink was ruled unconstitutional infringement of the first amendment.

Not directly applicable, but a case could be made.

[shadowrider]

10. One thing I've learned in my 57 years on this earth

Politicians, whether they have a D or an R after their name, can, and usually WILL do things like this as long as nobody is watching. That's the purpose of this thread, to make people aware and watchful.

I tried to find this on major sites (CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc.) and it ain't there.

[FSogol]

4. I call BS. n/t

[pscot]

5. From Ammoland? WTF

This is sales hype. The gun grabbers are coming to take away your ammo. Stock up now!!!

[X_Digger]

6. See the petition to the EPA..

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#documentDetail?R=0900006480b37fc2

"Pursuant to the Toxic Substances Control Act (“TSCA”, 15 U.S.C. § 2601 et seq.),
Petitioners Center for Biological Diversity, American Bird Conservancy, Association of
Avian Veterinarians, Project Gutpile and Public Employees for Environmental
Responsibility hereby petition the Environmental Protection Agency (“EPA”) to revise
rules governing toxic substances to ban the manufacture, processing and distribution in
commerce of lead shot, bullets, and fishing sinkers. Petitioners request that the EPA
consider this rulemaking pursuant to section 6(a) of TSCA."

[shadowrider]

8. Never interrupt

someone on a rant when they haven't bothered to read anything other than the headline and where the story came from.

[FBaggins]

13. Can't be "sales hype" - They would make more money if goes through.

The proposed regulation would not exempt existing ammunition. So you couldn't fire I bullet at the target range that you purchased last year... you would need to replace all existing (lead) ammo.

[PavePusher]

40. "The gun grabbers are coming to take away your ammo."

Umm, yeah, 'cause that is actually what they are trying to do.

[Euromutt]

54. Or price it out of existence

The armed forces' new M855A1 ball round only started shipping to Afghanistan two months ago, after years in development, and from what I'm given to understand, while the new "green bullet" has a greatly reduced lead content, it isn't actually lead-free. And even so, it costs twice as much as the M855 round it replaces.

[rrneck]

11. Don't bet on it. nt

[shadowrider]

12. Luckily, I don't bet

But if I did, I'd bet your paycheck this won't happen

[bossy22]

22. highly unlikely this will happen

if it did, i could see congress passing a law preventing the EPA from enforcing such a rule

[shadowrider]

23. Possibly, PROVIDED they're aware

Most times those guys/girls (D OR R) have no idea what's happening.

[PavePusher]

27. Can anyone cite to a study that supports the claims against lead ammo?

I keep hearing about this, but have never seen the supporting evidence, if there is any. TIA!

[shadowrider]

28. It makes people feel good n/t

[spin]

29. Talk about bad timing...

This will cost many Democrats dearly in the midterm elections. Gun owners, especially those gun owners who recently invested money into stocking up on ammo, will show up at the polls.

Even if the EPA decides NOT to ban traditional ammo, the issue could still hurt Democrats.

[ManiacJoe]

30. If Congress expressly exempted ammunition,

then it would seem that the EPA has no authority to make this change.

Anyone have a pointer to the USC and the EPA's petition?

ETA: Never mind, those pointers would be in posts #15 and #6.

[X_Digger]

32. The petition to the EPA has some funny "logic"..

The petition claims that the EPA has the power to regulate the bullets in ammunition separately from the other components, regardless of what the law actually says.

:crazy:

[virginia mountainman]

36. In my honest opinion...

They don't have a prayer in getting even close to passing such a rule.... That being said, they can really cause us Democrats allot of problems...

This is the sort of thing that sets gun owners off the deep end, and becomes a topic of discussion around store counters, and at gas stations around the United States... Let this get broadcast on the news, and ALL it will do is hurt us even more in November..

All people will say to each other is "Obama's EPA wants to ban our ammunition, because he wants to ban guns"...

This is how, a couple of dumb asses, with loose lips, cost us NATIONWIDE at the polls on the gun issue. You watch, if ONE OF THEM, gets on CNN or the Nightly News, this will be a new "hot topic"....

Remember Bobby Rush's H.R. 45: Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009

It never had a chance of passage,or even a committee meeting, but it is all over the "gun rights" network, like a bad case of Ebola, it went everywhere, very fast, and I still get emails, and questions about this piece of impossible legislation..

Just goes to show, what one dumbass, can do to hurt the rest of us.

[Hoopla Phil]

42. Yep, just in time to make guns an issue for this election.

[nebenaube]

99. this is doing the same thing...

My father, who is a tea-bagger, called with a frantic rant about this. He hasn't bought ammunition in twenty years and the guns he has are just inherited items that sit rusting in the basement. Between this issue and social security I think we're going to get pwnd.

[oneshooter]

37. Are they going to come for my casting equipment? n/t

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

43. Do you deny that there are people who would like to make it occur...

and do you deny that if not opposed, it could happen?

[PavePusher]

51. Now why the heck was that deleted? I didn't see anything too bad in it....? n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

61. They want to ban fishing sinkers as well

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/science_nature/press/article_ae05a12b-5e9c-50a6-b678-c9cbce1cf088.html

The push is to get lead out of everything. For hunters, it started with steel shot for waterfowl hunting 30 years ago. However, even things as mundane as solder are being restricted. The lead free alternatives frankly suck, and those of us who like to restore old-fashioned tube radios quickly snap up any real 60/40 rosin core solder that turns up at a flea market or yard sale.

That there are groups who would seize the opportunity a total lead ban offers as a de facto gun ban by the back door is undeniable. Similarly, there are groups who would just as gleefully outlaw hunting, fishing, or even eating anything with more mobility than an eggplant who would back any measure that would make it more prohibitive for people to do.

Bans often do not work as intended. R-12(Freon)refrigerant is banned in the US and no longer made here. It is a peculiar problem in the aircraft industry as there may be no LEGAL alternative to servicing some older aircraft. A 30 pound can of R-12 in Mexico or Brazil costs 25 bucks. It will fetch $800 to $1000 retail here. That's better than your 401k is doing.

[SteveM]

76. All this condor thing got me to recollect...

an article I read a year or so ago which stated that hunters, on Cally public lands, were already legally prevented from using lead cartridges, and were required to use substitutes; notably a local custom-round maker or wildcatter.

There seems to be little evidence that lead used in hunting (except in waterfowl areas where it has been banned for years) is a detriment to the environment. And none at all with regards the other shooting sports.

Far worse is dumping buoy batteries into Tampa Bay.

[virginia mountainman]

86. UPDATE!!!

It's on Drudge... So soon it will be on the national news channels, being broadcast far and wide. So a couple of idiots, come up with a good Idea...and now, they have given the NRA something to point too and say, "Obama wants to ban ammunition!"

So, thank you very much, in a day or two, this will be ALL OVER, just in time for election day!

[X_Digger]

87. Ugh, we SO don't need this crap...n/t

[DonP]

88. You can't fool me. We know it's all made up by the Ebil NRA.

We have already been told, in this very thread, that there is no one trying to ban your ammo or your guns.

That kind of certainty usually precedes some dickwad demanding more gun control in the form of "partial" bans, high taxes, smart guns et. al. and assuring us that we're only trying to take "these guns" and that its' just "common sense" control.

Never, ever underestimate the stupidity of some campaign staff workers to come up with a truly spectacular dumb issue for their mouth breathing candidate to campaign on with vast unintended consequences.

[TupperHappy]

96. A really, really bad idea. nt

[ManiacJoe]

97. Update: EPA admits to no authority for such a ban.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100827/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_lead_ammunition_ban

[X_Digger]

98. Excellent! n/t