Two police officers killed in Hoonah

[MichaelHarris]

Two Hoonah police officers were ambushed, shot and killed Saturday night by a suspect who on Sunday afternoon was still barricaded in his home on Front Street in the Southeast Alaska community of about 800 people, according to Alaska State Troopers....Hoonah now has just one full-time officer left, Chief John Millan, who is fairly new in the town, Prunella said. Officers from Wrangell are filling in.

Read more: http://www.adn.com/2010/08/29/1430097/two-police-officers-killed-in.html#ixzz0y43whXwM

[DongHa69]

1. It's a tragedy for the two officers

and their families, but what point are you trying to make here?

[MichaelHarris]

2. I thought you

ran away. Well two officers with weapons. Did their weapons help them? Now lets look at your concealed weapon under your shirt. two guys walk up and ask for your wallet with their guns drawn, (all good criminals come to the party with weapon drawn). What do you loose? Well you loose your wallet and your gun or your dead. Which will it be? It' not TV or the movies. You're not Wild Bill.

Concealed weapons are useless when an armed assailant approaches you. You loose your money and your gun. Your false sense of protection now lives in the hand of a bad guy.

[DongHa69]

3. I never run away from a debate, i just take a break

there are many instances where someone goes into a store to rob it with a weapon drawn and they end up either wounded or dead, it's been posted on this forum many times, and nobody here has ever said that a gun is a magic talisman, it just gives you a fighting chance and situational awareness is taught in most CHL classes so you can recognize a threat and be prepared for it or if possible, unass from the area as quickly as possible.
You say that having a concealed weapon does no good if an armed robber walks up to you with their gun pointed at you, well, what about the thread of the armed robber that walked up to the guy at WalMart with his gun pointed at him? Even though the robber got the drop on the guy at WalMart, who ended up getting shot? Gee, could it be, wait for it, the armed robber got shot by the CHL holder. Kinda blows your argument to hell doesn't it?

[cleanhippie]

6. Are you having fun beating up that strawman?

The poor defenseless thing, how could you?

[proteus_lives]

8. "Concealed weapons are useless when an armed assailant approaches you."

Ok, back it up.

Provide proof that Concealed has never prevented a crime.

[Euromutt]

12. Another graduate of the College of It Stands To Reason

Only a week or two ago, we had a thread (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x335543) concerning an incident in which a convenience store clerk managed to drive three robbers to flight (wounding one of them), in spite of the fact that at least one of them had a handgun, and came in with it drawn.

From the Modesto Bee last March, we have a story of a liquor store clerk who managed to fatally shoot one of two masked armed robbers: http://www.modbee.com/2010/03/20/1095586/modesto-store-clerk-shoots-and.html

Then there's security footage from an (admittedly rather dated) incident from 2005, in which a hotel clerk managed to draw on and shoot an armed robber: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk
I mention because it's a graphic counter-example, even if it is five years old.

There's no shortage of news stories about prospective robbery victims managing to outmaneuver even a robber who comes at them with a drawn gun. Your assertion that you can't defend yourself with a concealed firearm against an assailant with a firearm is very cute in theory, but it doesn't stand up to reality.

And, of course, it fails to take into account that the overwhelming majority of violent crime is committed using means other than a firearm. Do you have some contrived scenario whereby it must be impossible to use a firearm to defend yourself against an assailant with a blade or bludgeon as well?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

15. That's disproven quite frequently..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x335543

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x335432

[SteveM]

22. I thought you...

were thinking up another punk-a-thon. And you have! But it takes you considerably time between punkings. So, do you "run away" during those times? How long will you run before you think of another punking attempt?

[spin]

24. You treat every encounter as a situation in which the person with a concealed weapon loses ...

but every situation is different.

First if your situational awareness has failed and you find yourself faced by two armed attackers who merely want your wallet, you simply give it to them. Everything inside your wallet can be replaced, nothing is worth your health or your life.

If you seriously believe that you will be severely injured or murdered by your attackers, you have little to lose by fighting back.

As to your scenario, not everyone carries his/her concealed weapon under a shirt. Many women carry a firearm in their purse. Some walk through questionable areas with their hand in the purse on the firearm. At close range, a woman can shoot through her purse at an attacker or even two attackers. I carry my concealed weapon, a snub nosed .38 caliber S&W Model 642 in my front pants pocket. If someone approaches me in a suspicious manner, I casually place my hand on the weapon and I can draw much faster than from a belt holster. Some people wear a light jacket and keep the firearm in a side pocket. If necessary they can shoot through the pocket.

Most criminals are poor shots at the best. Many people who take the time to get a concealed carry permit also are willing to devote enough effort to become very proficient with their concealed weapon. In fact, in some pistol competitions, people practice for the exact scenario you propose.

I will agree that if you decide to resist, you may be severely injured or dead. You can do everything right and still end up six feet under. Some of us want a chance to survive such encounters and the odds are not quite as bad as you believe.

If you continue to argue that it is impossible, let me mention one incident.

Creation of the original anti-ballistic body armor was the result of a pizza delivery that turned into a shootout. In 1969, the night after Apollo 11 took off for the moon, Davis who was a Detroit area pizzeria owner, was concerned because his delivery staff was being robbed. Making a delivery himself in a particularly rough part of town one night, he was held up at gunpoint. To the three robbers surprise, Davis was also armed. In the ensuing shootout, he wounded two of his attackers and was hit twice himself. That incident set in motion the events that would lead to the founding of Second Chance Body Armor Company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chance_Body_Armor_Company

You can argue that Davis could have merely turned the money over and I would probably agree. But the incident does show that it is possible to survive a gunfight where you face multiple assailants.

[tourivers83]

26. Sometimes we are in God's hands.

You always have to practice situational awareness. And you gave no details as to what time of day it is in your scenario or location. Most armed robberies don’t occur in daylight on main street so let’s say that it is just after dark in the parking lot of a big box retail store. As you are loading your new table saw into the back of your SUV you notice two suspicious dudes approaching. Without even thinking you reach under your shirt and click the safety off of your .45. As they get closer they pull weapons and as it becomes obvious they mean you harm you pull yours. Now the choice belongs to them, they can attempt a shoot out or they can walk away in hopes of safer play. I feel that most thugs would choose the safer path.

:hi:

[MichaelHarris]

27. describe

a suspicious dude to me? What does a thug look like from a distance? What color is he?

[friendly_iconoclast]

28. A white extremist with an AK-47 walking around Moscow, Idaho....

....who has the power to mysteriously remove himself from all public records.

I'd call that suspicious.

[tourivers83]

29. Baby, baby it's a wild world. Hard to get by on a smile girl.

Well I wouldn’t want to profile anyone but he wouldn’t look like a Swedish Ski Bunny. Maybe more like the kind of person who would ask for spare change outside of Denny’s or a gangsta wannabe in a rap video. Also movement and actions, why did this guy just come into the parking lot from the sidewalk and why is he walking through looking into the cars he walks by. But that’s all crap. Remember situational awareness. In a mostly empty parking lot at night stay suspicious of everyone, especially anyone walking toward you.

[MichaelHarris]

30. so

you're pretty much afraid of everyone then.

[tourivers83]

31. Do you believe in magic?

I guess so. But I am a one hundred and twenty pound twenty seven year old gay woman living with an eighteen year old girl. My legs from the knees down are mostly titanium so I can’t run. We live alone in a big house in the woods in a conservative area with a lot of transient people and I am on depression medication and pain killers. And I sometimes feel like a have a target on my back.
And I mostly still believe in magic.
:hi:

[MichaelHarris]

36. depression medication

and well armed carry permit. BTW I also have an artificial knee, I can't run either. Never had to, never needed a gun in public. Watch the dark corners, they'll get you.

[Glassunion]

37. Quick question...

You said that you never needed a gun in public. What happens at that moment that you do need one?

[MichaelHarris]

38. I'm

not that afraid so after 52 years of never needing one I think it would be silly to carry one now. to be honest I actually laugh at the people who think they need a gun to go to the store, or to school. Now I know you're going to post links to some store and school shootings but really, would one student with a gun stopped any of that? The facts say no, not one mass shooting was stopped by a CWP holder.

Carrying a weapon equates to a fear in public, why else arm yourself. That fear would probably show itself when a CWP holder was faced with a mass shooting situation. Their fear would probably keep them from defending anyone. The gun on your hip is a pacifier no more, no less.

[Glassunion]

39. I disagree.

"The facts say no, not one mass shooting was stopped by a CWP holder." This statement is untrue, and you have been given examples.

As for the point of your post, I would disagree. That is your opinion and it differs from mine. I'm glad you have never needed to fight for your life. You are truly blessed. I cannot say the same for myself. Perhaps that is why we have differing opinions.

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. Negative examples mean little to a Lysenkoist. Evidence must be made to fit ideology.

Unlike the original Lysenkoists,Stalin being foremost among them, the modern ones merely ignore inconvenient truths or ridicule those

who have the temerity to mention said truths. The OG ones would have had you imprisoned or executed.

[MichaelHarris]

41. show

me the links where a CWP stopped a mass shooting. Not the church lady because she didn't stop a thing. Not robberies, not carjacking. but a real mass shooting. One one side of your "proof" list ten years of mass shootings, on the other side list the times a CWP holder used their weapon. Didn't you say when you got home the other day you would post examples? I can link the post if you like.

[Glassunion]

42. Move the goal posts all you want. But here you go.

From the Corvallis Gazette-Times of November 23, 2005
and
From Portland’s KATU.com of February 14, 2006
Mall shooting victim drew own pistol, family says
Parents of the man most seriously wounded in a shooting rampage at a shopping mall said Tuesday that he drew a pistol and confronted the gunman before being shot.
Brendan “Dan’’ McKown, 38, was hit twice in the abdomen on Sunday, when a gunman opened fire on crowds in the Tacoma Mall.
Doctors at Tacoma General Hospital believe McKown may have suffered permanent paralysis because of spinal damage, hospital spokesman Todd Kelley said.
Roger McKown, 63, of Yelm, called his son a hero and said he has been licensed to carry a firearm for years.
“Dan has been one that always believes in protecting other people, and he put his life on the line for other people,’’ he said at a hospital news conference.

McKown would not be in this position had he not been at work on Nov. 20. He managed a store inside the mall and was chatting with a friend when he heard gunshots.
“Bam, bam, bam, bam, high rate of fire, people wer diving for cover,” he says.
That is when McKown pulled his pistol, the gun he has carried for 17 years, not imagining he might actually have to use it. That is, until he came face to face with Dominick Maldonado, who had a rifle.
“I said – ‘Young man, I think you need to put your weapon down.’ He apparently didn’t appreciate that and he brought his gun around. I drew and right as I aimed at his head, he hit me in the spine,” McKown says. “Each blow is throwing my arm back into the air and I’m just praying to God, something really un-Christian, just please let me kill this guy before he shoots somebody else.”
As McKown was bleeding and believing he was going to die, police say Maldonado took hostages, keeping officers and paramedics outside for another hour and twenty minutes.
As for his accused shooter, Maldonado’s trial begins in April and McKown says he plans to be there.

[MichaelHarris]

45. Cool

one 5 year old story. Wanna post the link? How many people did this guy shoot before the CWP holder shot him? What was the shooters motive? Was it a mass shooting or a robbery? Put that one in you list on the left, on the right list the mass shootings for the past 10 years. You probably don't want to do that I bet.

[Glassunion]

50. Links...

http://www.danmckown.com
http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4169986.html
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/249444_shooting23.html

[MichaelHarris]

57. you

have one in the left column for 10 years of Concealed weapons, what does that tell you?

[Hoopla Phil]

59. How about all these?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Mass+shooting+stopped&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2

[Glassunion]

63. He may be ignoring you. Just sayin...

[Hoopla Phil]

64. You may be correct. I've "spared" with him before. He came up "lacking".

on edit: please feel free to use my links

[Glassunion]

62. That the odds of a CCWer being confronted with a mass shooting are very very slim.

Get off the mass shooting train (it is not the only type of violent crime) and just look at the defensive uses of firearms...

We will use your columns...

On the left column you have the violent crimes. On the right, defensive gun uses against those types of crimes. Yes... These numbers are from 1995. That is because it was the only year(a great one for gun-control advocates) that the Department of Justice ran the survey. A lot of politicians apparently never wanted to run the survey again. I wonder why?

Left column= 1,798,785
Right column=1,500,000

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_97/95CRIME/95crime2.pdf
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf (page 9)

Funny, nearly 1/2 of all American households have firearms in them. Funny, the defensive gun uses seem to follow that same trend.

Think about it...

Also, how many mass shootings have there been in the past 10 years using your strict critera? Remember you must subtract "may-issue" and "no-issue" states and cities. Also you must subtract shootings that took place in any federal building, gun-free zone, k-12 school, or any other place off limits to conceal carry (I.e. Workplaces, casinos, etc). Please get back to me with your list. We will count them up and compare the left and right columns.

[MichaelHarris]

65. you

went back 15 years to NOT answer the question?

[Hoopla Phil]

66. And you went .43 hours to not respond to this list. . .

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Mass+shooting+stopped&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2

[Glassunion]

70. I did indeed answer your question.

You asked "you have one in the left column for 10 years of Concealed weapons, what does that tell you?"
I answered "That the odds of a CCWer being confronted with a mass shooting are very very slim."

For some reason you are hung up on mass shootings. It is not the only type of violent crime. But since you cannot seem to get off of the subject, I asked "Also, how many mass shootings have there been in the past 10 years using your strict critera? Remember you must subtract "may-issue" and "no-issue" states and cities. Also you must subtract shootings that took place in any federal building, gun-free zone, k-12 school, or any other place off limits to conceal carry (I.e. Workplaces, casinos, etc). Please get back to me with your list. We will count them up and compare the left and right columns."

The problem is that I shook my magic 8 ball and I already have my answer. You will not answer the questions that I just asked. You will change the subject or ignore it completely. Because what you will find will not support your argument. There have not been that many mass shootings where a CCWer would have been allowed to carry legally in the past 10 years in the US.

Again, I'm glad you have never felt you needed to carry a gun. I hope you never have to. The beauty for me is that your opinion or feelings are not policy or law.

[shadowrider]

68. Psssst. Glassunion, here ya go

When dealing with an anti-gun person, keep these in mind:

1. A statement of fact regarding guns that can't be refuted by an anti-RKBA results in being called names. The name caller then departs the thread.
2. When an anti-RKBA person makes a riduculous statement, they usually, but not always, quote the VPC or the Brady Campaign to Reduce Gun Violence. YOU will then be challenged to refute the statement.
2A. If you do refute the statement with facts, links and common sense, you will be told (pick one):
2AA. You are quoting a right-wing hate-mongering site
2AB. You are mis-interpreting the information
2AC. Your information has not been peer reviewed
2AD. THEIR information is from the VPC or BCTPGV and therefore you are wrong
2AE. IF you do use VPC or BCTPGV stats to disprove them, you'll be told you're misinterpreting the facts.
3. They will take the results of 2AA, 2AB, 2AC, 2AD and 2AE, dismiss them, and again tell you to use facts from a REPUTABLE website (i.e. one that doesn't fit any of the above).
4. When you do find a site, such as FBI, DOJ etc. to refute them, see #1.

In other words, any proof you offer will be dismissed, but the challenge will remain. It's impossible to prove them wrong simply because they won't accept the proof.

[Glassunion]

43. Also...

There are over 300 million people in this country. What are the odds that any one of those people would be in a mass shooting?

There is only 1 CCW person for roughly every 45 adults. What are the odds of a person being in a mass shooting and that person being a CCWer?

How many off duty police officers in plain clothes have stopped a mass shooting by being there when the shooting started?

Is the CCWer obligated to stop a mass shooting?

[MichaelHarris]

44. thought

you had a list.

[Hoopla Phil]

54. How about this list?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Mass+shooting+stopped&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2

[MichaelHarris]

46. OK

I'll use your numbers, "There are over 300 million people in this country. What are the odds that any one of those people would be in a mass shooting? There is only 1 CCW person for roughly every 45 adults. What are the odds of a person being in a mass shooting and that person being a CCWer?"

It's not moving the goalposts when you bring up the numbers right?

With your number, 1 CCW for 45 adults, List all of the violent crimes in public where a firearm was used. Put that in a column on the left. On the right list all of the violent crimes where a weapon was used in public that were stopped by a CWH. No goal post moving, your numbers. your claim. Make it easy use numbers from the last two years.

It'll take you a while so I can wait. 1 in 45 right?

[Glassunion]

51. You avoided my question

And since the data for your question does not exist, yours cannot be answered.

My point was that the odds of even being in a mass shooting are quite slim. And the chances of a CCWer being in a mass shooting are 45 times less likely than that. So the reason you don't hear about a CCWer stopping a mass shooting is because the odds are not there for it to happen. On top of that there are many other variables that you need to take into account...

Mass shootings seem to happen quite frequently where law abiding citizens are not allowed to carry. Malls who choose to not allow those with firearms inside, schools, colleges, post offices, etc...
Also, what is the CCWers obligation in that type of situation? Are the obligated to confront the gunman? Or should they see to their family's safety?

[MichaelHarris]

58. So you

won't be researching the CWP involved shootings? Would you be surprised if CWP holders were involved in more wrongful shootings than they were in stopping crimes?

[Hoopla Phil]

60. That's not an answer to the questing. Only a diversion to a supposition that you did not support

with evidence.

[Euromutt]

67. If the only crime you're willing to consider valid is a mass shooting...

...then, yeah, it's a safe bet CWP holders are "involved in more wrongful shootings than ... in stopping crimes." But that's just stacking the deck in your favor, because there are many other types of violent crime, such as robberies, assaults, home invasions, all of which are prevented from being completed by the victim wielding a firearm with far greater frequency than mass shootings even occur. I gave a few examples in post #12, in response to another of your faith-based, evidence-free assertions.

The more fair question would be whether CWP holders commit more mass shootings than they prevent. But that's a difficult question to answer, because by definition you can't prove with absolute certainty that something didn't happen that otherwise would have. Still, it's a significant idication in that regard that mass shooters almost invariably commit their crimes in so-called "gun-free zones" where private citizens are prohibited from carrying either by law or by decree of the property owner, such as schools and shopping malls. Which, incidentally, is another factor that skews the odds against a CWP holder being in a position to try to intervene in a mass shooting. Now why do you think mass shooters display such a marked preference for locations where concealed firearms are prohibited? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, the possible presence of armed private citizens carries a deterrent (and therefore preventative) effect?

[Glassunion]

74. Would you be surprised if CWP holders were

involved in stopping crimes, more than they were in wrongful shootings?

[PavePusher]

47. "Not the church lady because she didn't stop a thing."

Orly?

Care to explain that one?

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. Don't bother. You'd be better off trying to sell Charles Darwin T-shirts....

....at Liberty University.

[Hoopla Phil]

55. I'll try. It didn't stop a thing because . . . that is an inconvenient example?

[friendly_iconoclast]

48. Today's feature: I Don't See What I Don't Want To See; Or, My Cruise On Denial

Apparently, you've forgotten Monday already. That's not a good thing, Michael:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=336873&mesg_id=337156

show....me the links where a CWP stopped a mass shooting. Not the church lady because she didn't stop a thing. Not robberies, not carjacking. but a real mass shooting....

If you're going to use an appeal to authority, it helps to have an actual, y'know, authority.


Like I said: Lysenkoism.

[Hoopla Phil]

53. Take your pick of these:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Mass+shooting+stopped&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2

[Euromutt]

69. I call shenanigans on multiple counts

The categories on your "balance sheet" keep changing, but one consistent factor is that they are all heavily weighted in favor of your "argument."

On one side of your "proof" list ten years of mass shootings, on the other side list the times a CWP holder used their weapon <to stop a mass shooting in progress>.

That's not very equitable, given that the majority of mass shootings aren't committed by CWP holders.

From post #46:

List all of the violent crimes in public where a firearm was used. Put that in a column on the left. On the right list all of the violent crimes where a weapon was used in public that were stopped by a CWH.

Again, not equitable, since the majority of violent crimes (let alone armed violent crimes) aren't committed by CWP holders.

From post #58:

Would you be surprised if CWP holders were involved in more wrongful shootings than they were in stopping crimes?

If by crimes stopped, you are only referring to mass shootings, you are once again stacking the odds heavily in your favor, since you're now comparing all shootings in the "committed by CWP holder" column to only mass shootings on the "stopped by CWP holder."

Not the church lady because she didn't stop a thing.

I know there are alien concepts to you, but you might try presenting arguments or, better yet, evidence to support your claim. If you just automatically dismiss any examples presented out of hand, you're going to find that before long, your interlocutors are going to wonder why they should go to the effort of researching examples.

So instead of bleating about how you want examples, why don't you declare beforehand the criteria (which may be subject to some subsequent negotiation) by which you will consider an example to be valid, and pledge that you will accept as valid any example that meets these criteria?

That would be the honest way to engage in this discussion.

[Glassunion]

71. 1. You mis-quoted me. 2. Your cookie is crumbling.

I did not say "when you got home the other day you would post examples?" I said that if you wanted me to I would, however you never responded so I did not.

I did some homework for you... ABC news: Timeline: Mass shootings in US since April 1999 to April 2009. (this would be your left column)
Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/04/2534869.htm

1. Littleton, Colorado, April 1999: Two teenage boys shoot and kill 12 students and a teacher at Columbine High School before killing themselves.
2. Atlanta, Georgia, July 1999: A stock market day trader goes on a day-long shooting rampage, killing 12 people including his wife and two children before taking his own life.
3. Fort Worth, Texas, September 1999: A gunman opens fire at a prayer service, killing six people before committing suicide.
4. Washington, October 2002: A series of sniper-style shootings, some carried out from the boot of a car, claims 10 lives, mostly in the Washington area. Many of the attacks were carried out with a semi-automatic assault rifle.
5. Chicago, August 2003: A worker who was laid off shoots and kills six of his former co-workers with a semi-automatic pistol. The shooter had a lengthy arrest record, including for weapons offences.
6. Birchwood, Wisconsin, November 2004: A hunter opens fire with an SKS assault rifle, killing six other hunters and wounding two after an argument.
7. Brookfield, Wisconsin, March 2005: A man fires 22 rounds during a church service, killing seven people.
8. Tacoma Washington, November 2005: A man marched down a mall corridor, firing from an assault rifle and semiautomatic machine pistol before ducking into a store and taking several hostages.
9. Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, October 2006: A truck driver armed with two rifles, a semi-automatic handgun and 600 rounds of ammunition kills five schoolgirls execution-style in an Amish schoolhouse, and seriously wounds six others before shooting himself.
10. Blacksburg, Virginia, April 2007: A student shoots 47 people at Virginia Tech, killing 32 before he commits suicide, in the deadliest mass shooting in the United States.
11. Omaha, Nebraska, December 2007: Nine people are killed and five others injured after a 20-year-old shooter armed with a military-style assault rifle attacks shoppers in a mall.
12. Carnation, Washington, December 2007: A woman and her boyfriend shoot dead six members of her family, including two children, ages three and six, on Christmas Eve, using large-caliber pistols.
13. Chicago, February 2008: Six women are tied-up and shot at a suburban clothing store. Five of the women die. The gunman has not been found.
14. DeKalb, Illinois, February 2008: A man opens fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing five students and wounding 16 before turning his weapon on himself.
15. Alger, Washington, September 2008: A mentally ill man who had been released from jail a month earlier shoots eight people, killing six.
16. Covina, California, December 2008: A man dressed in a Santa Claus suit opens fire at a family Christmas party at his ex-wife's home and then sets fire to the house. Nine people are killed in the home. The gunman later kills himself.
17. Geneva County and Coffee County, Alabama, March 12 2009: In a shooting spree that tears through several towns, a 28-year-old out-of-work man kills 10 people, including his mother and a toddler.
18. North Carolina, March 29, 2009: A heavily-armed gunman shoots dead eight people, many elderly and sick patients, in a North Carolina nursing home.
19. Santa Clara, California, March 30, 2009: Six people are shot dead in an apparent murder-suicide at a home in an upscale Silicon Valley neighbourhood.
20. Binghamton, New York, April 3, 2009: Up to 13 people are killed as a gunman goes on a rampage at a civic centre in the town of Binghamton.
21. Graham, Washington State, April 5, 2009: James Harrison, 34, killed his five children (aged between seven and 16) inside his mobile home, then drove to a nearby casino and shot himself inside his car, police said.

Ok so you have 21 "mass shootings" in a 10 year span. But let us take a look at all of those shootings... My comments in red...

1. Littleton, Colorado, April 1999: Two teenage boys shoot and kill 12 students and a teacher at Columbine High School before killing themselves. A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting, as it would have been illegal for them to posess a firearm in the school.
2. Atlanta, Georgia, July 1999: A stock market day trader goes on a day-long shooting rampage, killing 12 people including his wife and two children before taking his own life. A CCW permit holder could have stopped this shooting.
3. Fort Worth, Texas, September 1999: A gunman opens fire at a prayer service, killing six people before committing suicide. A CCW Permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting. The possesion of a firearm in a church was prohibited at the time of this shooting
4. Washington, October 2002: A series of sniper-style shootings, some carried out from the boot of a car, claims 10 lives, mostly in the Washington area. Many of the attacks were carried out with a semi-automatic assault rifle. A CCW permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting spree as CCW is not permitted in Washington DC.
5. Chicago, August 2003: A worker who was laid off shoots and kills six of his former co-workers with a semi-automatic pistol. The shooter had a lengthy arrest record, including for weapons offences. A CCW permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting spree as CCW is not permitted in the state of Illinios.
6. Birchwood, Wisconsin, November 2004: A hunter opens fire with an SKS assault rifle, killing six other hunters and wounding two after an argument. A CCW permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting spree as CCW is not permitted in the state of Wisconson.
7. Brookfield, Wisconsin, March 2005: A man fires 22 rounds during a church service, killing seven people. A CCW permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting spree as CCW is not permitted in the state of Wisconson.
8. Tacoma Washington, November 2005: A man marched down a mall corridor, firing from an assault rifle and semiautomatic machine pistol before ducking into a store and taking several hostages. A CCW permit holder would have had an oportunity to stop this and one DID.
9. Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, October 2006: A truck driver armed with two rifles, a semi-automatic handgun and 600 rounds of ammunition kills five schoolgirls execution-style in an Amish schoolhouse, and seriously wounds six others before shooting himself. A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting as it is prohibited to possess a firearm in a K-12 school.
10. Blacksburg, Virginia, April 2007: A student shoots 47 people at Virginia Tech, killing 32 before he commits suicide, in the deadliest mass shooting in the United States. A CCW permit holder would not have had an oportunity to stop this as possesion of firearms was prohibited at the school.
11. Omaha, Nebraska, December 2007: Nine people are killed and five others injured after a 20-year-old shooter armed with a military-style assault rifle attacks shoppers in a mall. A CCW permit holder would have had an oportunity to stop this.
12. Carnation, Washington, December 2007: A woman and her boyfriend shoot dead six members of her family, including two children, ages three and six, on Christmas Eve, using large-caliber pistols. A CCW permit holder would not have had an oportunity to stop this. As it happened in a home and not a public place.
13. Chicago, February 2008: Six women are tied-up and shot at a suburban clothing store. Five of the women die. The gunman has not been found. A CCW permit holder would not have had an oportunity to stop this as CCW is not permitted in Illinios.
14. DeKalb, Illinois, February 2008: A man opens fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing five students and wounding 16 before turning his weapon on himself. A CCW permit holder would not have had an oportunity to stop this as CCW is not permitted in Illinios.
15. Alger, Washington, September 2008: A mentally ill man who had been released from jail a month earlier shoots eight people, killing six. A CCW permit holder would have had an opportunity to stop this shooting.
16. Covina, California, December 2008: A man dressed in a Santa Claus suit opens fire at a family Christmas party at his ex-wife's home and then sets fire to the house. Nine people are killed in the home. The gunman later kills himself. A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting for two reasons: 1st, CCW in California is may-issue and very few permits are approved and it happened in a private residence.
17. Geneva County and Coffee County, Alabama, March 12 2009: In a shooting spree that tears through several towns, a 28-year-old out-of-work man kills 10 people, including his mother and a toddler. A CCW permit holder would have had an oportunity to stop this shooting.
18. North Carolina, March 29, 2009: A heavily-armed gunman shoots dead eight people, many elderly and sick patients, in a North Carolina nursing home. A CCW would have had an oportunity to stop this shooting, only IF the nursing home did not have a No-Firearms rule and posting.
19. Santa Clara, California, March 30, 2009: Six people are shot dead in an apparent murder-suicide at a home in an upscale Silicon Valley neighbourhood. A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting for two reasons: 1st, CCW in California is may-issue and very few permits are approved and it happened in a private residence.
20. Binghamton, New York, April 3, 2009: Up to 13 people are killed as a gunman goes on a rampage at a civic centre in the town of Binghamton. A CCW permit holder would most likely not been able to stop this shooting as NY is a may issue state. However there may have been an oportunity to stop the shooting.
21. Graham, Washington State, April 5, 2009: James Harrison, 34, killed his five children (aged between seven and 16) inside his mobile home, then drove to a nearby casino and shot himself inside his car, police said. A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting as it happened in a private residence.

So now we are left with 7 mass shootings where a CCW permit holder would have had a legal oportunity to stop a mass shooting. Considering today's number of CCW holders being at around 1 in 45 adults, having a 1 in 7 rate of mass shootings stopped by a CCW holder does not seem so bad. But here is the kicker... I do not know one single CCW permit holder whose sole purpose of carrying is to stop a mass shooting. "All" of the CCW permit holders that I know, carry for "Self" defense.

Will you ignore this or change the suject? *Shakes Magic 8 Ball*... "Signs point to yes"

[oneshooter]

72. Odds are he will either ignore you, or move the goalposts. n/t

[Glassunion]

73. My Magic 8 Ball has been pretty spot on lately. We shall see... nt

[MichaelHarris]

75. WRONG

I won't ignore you. I'm just waiting for the list of ANY violent crime (you said mass shootings were to constrained so I made it broader for you), stopped by a CWP holder compared to ALL violent crimes committed with a gun. On the left, crimes stopped by a CWP, on the right ALL crimes committed with a hand gun. Lets say a 5 year period. It's a simple list, we just want to see the effectiveness of CWP holders on crime. you do understand that at least right? I left the more constrained mass shooting and gave you a broader scope. You get to use all violent crime stopped by a CWP holder. I'll be waiting, not hiding.

[Glassunion]

76. Easy...

Left column: 385,178 (violent crimes committed with a firearm)
Right column: 1,500,000 (conservative estimate survey results by DOJ on defensive gun uses)
I used 2007's numbers. Feel free to try it with any years data, the result is about the same. Both are reports from the US Department of Justice.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/guncrimetab.cfm (left column)
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf (right column)

[MichaelHarris]

77. so you really

want people to believe that there were 385,178 violent crimes committed with a firearm during a five year period? AND you want us to believe there were 1,500,000 defensive gun uses? Lets say you are right (which I'm about to show you how stupid these numbers are), examine these numbers for a second.

1,500,000 defensive uses, your number. If there were only 385,178 violent crimes what were the 1,500,000 people using their gun for? What were 1,114,822 other people doing when they defended themselves? I mean if they had to use a weapon to defend themselves wouldn't that be a violent crime? You have a huge discrepancy with your numbers, you actually have 1,114,822 CWP uses that didn't take place during a violent crime? Now, based on numerous gungion posts, most states are not required to share CWP involved incidents, where does the numbers come from then.

You guys throw 1% around all of the time when referring to CWP holders who shoot illegally. That number is as meaningless as the numbers you posted. If what you posted were true then we have only a small crime problem in America AND you have 1,114,822 CWP holders who used their weapons during a non-violent crime.

My guess, you moved the bar a little and used defensive gun uses which was not what we agreed on. We are talking about CWP holders, but you knew that. That is why you posted silly numbers. To really make your post even more stupid is that one would think that if 1,500,000 defensive uses were true then those 385,178 bad used would not have happened, hell lets fire the police forces all across the nation. Looks like 1,500,000 people are stopping crime all around us.

See how I keep using 1,500,000? That's how stupid your numbers are.

[Glassunion]

78. Please go back and read my post

I stated that my numbers were from a 1 year period. 2007 not a 5 year period.
I also stated the numbers were DGU's. I did that because the information you are seeking(CWP involved incidents) does not exist. No entity is tracking the DGUs of just CCW holders. However the numbers included those who were among the DGU numbers. But for your specific request of just CWP involved incidents, it would be impossible for anyone to obtain those numbers as the data does not exist.

As for the math, you requested all violent crime committed with a firearm. Then you asked how there could be a higher number of DGUs than the crimes. You have to keep in mind that not all violent crime is committed with a firearm. The total number of violent crimes for that same year was
1,408,338 total violent crimes.
Another factor you need to keep in mind is that a crime that was going to be violent but was stopped before it became a violent crime would not be listed in your left column. I.e. Rape becomes attempted rape, robbery becomes attempted robbery, assault becomes attempted assault. So on and so forth.

Also you need to keep in mind that the number of DGUs was an estemate beaded on survey data collected by the DOJ as I had stated in my post.

But if you have some sort of secret access to some crime survey data that shows the ineffectiveness of CCW please do share. I would be very interested in reading it.

[MichaelHarris]

79. so

you just went ahead and got stuff that had nothing to do with what we were talking about? Here is what we were talking about, from my post:

"I'm just waiting for the list of ANY violent crime (you said mass shootings were to constrained so I made it broader for you), stopped by a CWP holder compared to ALL violent crimes committed with a gun. On the left, crimes stopped by a CWP, on the right ALL crimes committed with a hand gun. Lets say a 5 year period. It's a simple list, we just want to see the effectiveness of CWP holders on crime. you do understand that at least right? I left the more constrained mass shooting and gave you a broader scope. You get to use all violent crime stopped by a CWP holder. I'll be waiting, not hiding."

Now read what you posted. Did anything you post have ANYTHING to do with what we were talking about? You post didn't even mention CWP holders let alone CWP holders who stopped a crime. you can try again but you'll probably post a variation of the crap you just posted. BTW, you numbers, what were 1,408,338 people using guns to defend themselves during non-violent acts?

[Glassunion]

80. Again...

You are demanding information that does not exist. Unless you have access to some data that has this information in it, which I would love to see.

Again, DGU surveys are the only ones that contain the data for CCW defensive uses of firearms.

Again, that 1.4million number was not DGUs, but the total number of violent crimes for 2007. The 300thousand number from an earlier post was just the violent crimes for the same year committed with firearms.

[MichaelHarris]

81. so

when you guys quote the 1% CWP holders commit crimes you're pulling that out of your ass? You really don't know how effective CWP holders are as a crime deterrent? Is that what you're now saying?

[Glassunion]

82. What? That's a huge stretch.

There are states that keep tabs on the crimes committed by CCW holders. But there are not that track the legal defensive activities of a CCWer. The reason they do this is because a lot of people who have a problem with CCW predicted that there would be poor in the streets with CCWers walking around. That 1% is from what has been gathered by municipalities and states that track that information. It is not a number that comes out of our ass. In fact the VPC is all over CCWers that commit crimes. They even have the details.

Off topic: you work midnights too? Or just a night owl?

[MichaelHarris]

83. Just a night owl

I'm sort of semi-retired, I take a photo job here and there, mostly college sports and news. I recently went back to college for fun, in December I'll get my degree in anthropology and a minor in history. I studied marine biology many, many years ago and thought taking classes again would be fun.

[Hoopla Phil]

52. Have you ever needed a fire extinguisher?

In my ~25 years of driving I've never needed one but I've always kept one in my car.

Oddly, I did need (maybe - we'll never know what would have happened if I hadn't had it) my carry gun once in the ~15 years I've carried one.

[Pavulon]

33. You should be ashamed.. Fear canard parrot, take a minute and look at fear

when I was 18 i was not afraid of shit. I joined the army to pay for college, drove motorcycles on public roads at race course speed, and generally engaged in activity that has high risks of death. Why, because i was not afraid. Over time people I knew died from these things and I got married. So roll tape 13 years forward my wife works in an ER. She treats people in horrific motorcycle and car accidents, as well as gunshot victims.

So because I have gotten smarter I ride motorcycles and drive cars on race courses only. I left a combat MOS, and take reasonable precautions like driving safe cars.

There is ZERO harm in me carrying a firearm because I judge it a reasonable precaution. Fear is a genetic response designed to make you live longer.

Fear can be quite reasonable.

[Taitertots]

32. Your opinion is based on a false premise

That capitulation will somehow save you. There remains a significant chance that they will murder you anyway. In which case the options are execution, going down fighting, or surviving the incident.

There are numerous examples of people using a concealed weapon to fight off multiple attackers. Just as there are numerous examples of capitulating victims being executed.

[PavePusher]

35. The end results of a robbery are not a binary solution set.

But you knew that already and are just poking buttons for reactions now.

[Skittles]

4. it involves guns

this is the gun forum, right?

[cleanhippie]

7. Discussion of gun-related public policy issues or the use of firearms for self-defense belong in the

Discussion of gun-related public policy issues or the use of firearms for self-defense belong in the Guns Forum.


This is neither.

[Skittles]

9. oh I see

only the GOOD stuff - so, rename it PRO GUN forum :rofl:

[cleanhippie]

10. Sorry, forgot to mention that that was from the forum rules (verbatim)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x95935




fail.

[Skittles]

11. >>>>>

:rofl:

[cleanhippie]

17. >>>>>

:wtf:

[MichaelHarris]

20. Only

fun shootings are allowed here I think

[cleanhippie]

5. I wonder what set the guy off? I wonder what the OP's point was?

[shadowrider]

13. The point of the OP is simply, get rid of guns and senseless muders will stop on a dime. n/t

[rrneck]

34. The OP's point is

to draw attention to himself and stir up shit.

[oneshooter]

14. You can't see the OP's point because it is hidden under his hat. n/t

[pipoman]

16. His asshat?

[Callisto32]

21. I dub this....the funniest subthread ever.

[SteveM]

23. More five-and-dime punking. 5CR/D3R?

[Hoopla Phil]

56. It was personal. This guy had a history with these two officers. More info. . .

http://www.ktuu.com/news/ktuu-story-hoonah-officers-shooting-082910,0,131284.story

[rrneck]

19. What are you going to do about the next one? nt

[Pavulon]

25. Have funerals?

just like the people who are killed by drunk drivers. Its a shame but has not shit to do with my right to own a firearm. move on.

[Hoopla Phil]

61. I don't know of anyone that knows what can legally be done to stop someone that makes a conscious

decision to kill someone no matter what. This was personal with this guy.
http://www.ktuu.com/news/ktuu-story-hoonah-officers-shooting-082910,0,131284.story

Do you know how to legally stop someone intent on killing a person? If you do you have the answer to many "stalker" problems in this world.