S.F.'s lone gun store draws neighbors' fire

[RamboLiberal]

----

Back here in San Francisco, though, where plastic bags, soda drinks and mishandled recycling cause health-hazard panic, the reopening of a totally legit gun store was bound to catch some neighborhood flak.

These aren't gangbanger street guns but licensed firearms, complete with background checks and more official limitations than we put on torture.

Still, the Northwest Bernal Alliance and three other local groups are urging authorities to deny a permit to High Bridge Arms gun store on Mission Street after a brief closure because its members don't want such a place "near our homes and/or schools."

Officially, the organizations are not opposed to people owning guns, Alliance member Jaime Ross told me. They'd just "rather have something the neighborhood could enjoy - a laundry or wine and cheese shop."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/30/EDJG1F36DK.DTL&tsp=1#ixzz0y8DsadoT

Would an Islamic Center be okay? I bet it would. Isn't this the same kind of issue. The gun store is perfectly legal as is the Islamic Center.

[Hoopla Phil]

1. Yep, the anti's say they don't want to take all the guns away - but I guess they

just don't want you to be able to buy them.

[tularetom]

2. I wouldn't want a gun store OR an Islamic center next to me

And I sure as hell wouldn't want an effin wine and cheese shop either. Nor a christian church nor a synagogue.

There is 3500 acres of dry pasture land next to me on one side and a 120 acre "rural residential" parcel on the other side.

It's full of quail and pheasants and it's more or less my private reserve. The guy who owns the 3500 acres lets me hunt there in return for making sure others stay out.

I like it just fine.

[rpannier]

3. A few things

1. What if most of the neighbors hate wine and cheese?
2. A laundry? I know when I think of things a whole neighborhood can enjoy, I think of laundry first
3. The gun shop is doing what we on my region of the left want -- They do background checks, the firearms are licensed, etc

I'd prefer people don't own guns, but I'm okay with it -- especially when you have a store like this doing checks and what

[Endangered Specie]

6. We have a gun shop / range that is ALSO a restaurant...

perhaps that would make it okay?

(before anyone asks, no booze is served and the cooks pack 1911's)

[spin]

11. What a great combination. What's on the menu? ...

I'd love to visit that gun shop/range/restaurant.

[Endangered Specie]

20. Its not terribly fancy, but patriotism is the main theme...

http://www.rangeusa.com/1776.php

They do a date night: 2 meals, 2 range passes, 100 bullets

[proteus_lives]

22. That is a damn good deal.

I'd go!

[Hoopla Phil]

32. That place sounds like a real hoot. I like their menu too.

[jazzhound]

39. LOVE IT!!!!!

:-) :thumbsup:

[rpannier]

36. It would be something everyone could enjoy

I mean if the neighborhood thinks a laundromat is something everyone could enjoy, I'd think a restaurant would be a huge attraction

Where are you -- It sounds like some place I'd go to, for the food and just to say I've been

[PavePusher]

34. ALL gun stores have to do back-ground checks.

In California, the firearms are not licenced (nor are the owners) but they are registered with the state.

[Callisto32]

45. You do know that all stores (and licensed dealers at gun shows) have to do this, right?

[oneshooter]

53. You are wrong "They do background checks, the firearms are licensed, etc

The firearm is registered not "licensed". And background checks at FFL dealers are required by Federal Law.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Endangered Specie]

4. A "wine and cheese shop"... nice way to stereotype yourself...

[SteveM]

5. They can protest all they want, but they will not ban guns or this shop. nt

[onehandle]

7. Gun shops, pawn shops, strip clubs and porno stores bring down property values in urban areas.

Which is why in big cities they are usually located near each other in marginal areas.

I don't blame them.

Has nothing to do with 'gun rights.'

[izquierdista]

8. How about a ChuckECheese?

And a mental health outpatient facility?

[slackmaster]

19. I once joined an organization called "The Citizens' Coalition Against Chuck E. Cheese"

And I was proud to be a member.

[USNEO]

10. But like the Mosque in NY

it has everything to do with the 1st Amend. wouldn't you agree?

[rfranklin]

16. It would if you were worshipping firearms...

I don't think the First Amendment says anything about commerce.

[Callisto32]

47. Freedom of association, man.

[rfranklin]

56. Sorry, it's just a commercial venture, not a social group...

You are really stretching it.

[Callisto32]

68. With whom I choose to spend my money is an association decision.

Edit:

Not a social venture...? Ever BEEN to a gun store?

[rfranklin]

69. The key word is "store"

How you feel about it is of no consequence under the law.

[Callisto32]

70. So a person who opens a store to the public is not making a decision to peacably assemble?

It's not about how I feel about it. It is about how it IS.

Gun stores are social places, as are barbour shops and lots of other retail locations.

Even if they weren't it would not matter, because a person is opening his property and himself to the public, and I am choosing to interact with him and maybe purchase his property. That is assembly.

[rfranklin]

71. You seem to know the law better than I do, could you...

provide me with the case law supporting your assertions linking commercial ventures and freedom of assembly?

[Callisto32]

73. You don't get it.

I don't CARE what the courts say on this.

These are the same people that can write, "for a place to be an open field, it is not necessary for the location to be either open, or a field" with a straight face.

These are the same courts that have found that "free speech zones" are okay.

I'm a 3'rd year law student. My law-fu isn't as strong as with experienced attorneys', but we could throw citations at each other all day. In the end, it won't matter, because just because it is the law, does not make it right.

If you want to interpret away your rights, go straight ahead. Go live in a place that has the deed restrictions you want, but don't try to drag everyone else along.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. So did the presence of blacks in mostly white neighborhoods, how do you feel about them?

[onehandle]

24. I feel fine about them.

Let me know when any one of the commercial structures I named gain a pulse and consciousness.

Oh and I am buying the property across from yours, getting it rezoned and opening a porno shop. The 'booths' will be open 24/7 in case you are interested.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. Then you should be fine with this gun shop

Also you can't put a porn shop near my house...its all state land and there are no customers. One of the joys of living in the twigs

[Callisto32]

48. And just becaue I might not LIKE what you do with your property, I have no right to stop it.

I should build a fence/hedgerow to keep myself from seeing you, or move the heck out.

But, I guess you don't actually believe that people own their property, eh?

[cleanhippie]

59. As long as your porn shop is located in an area zoned for it

and gets the required business licenses, then yes, go for it.

If I didn't like it, I would have to reevaluate why I chose to live in an area zoned for commercial use.

[-..__...]

27. Gun shops?... O'Rly?

Is there, or are there any studies or documented data on this?

Never mind "gun stores", pawn shops or strip clubs.

Establishments with "Checks Cashed" or "Western Union" signs in the window, "Rent-a-Centers" and "Mid-Night Liquors" are more of an urban blight.

[onehandle]

31. Same neighborhood. nt

[-..__...]

33. Is this the same neighborhood...

with the nail salons, massage parlors, tattoo parlors, transmission repair and oil change shops, knock-off designer sunglasses kiosks, incense store, recently killed poultry hanging in the window shop, but what we really need is a "wine and cheese" shop or laundromat location neighborhood?

Or do those affect property values and desirability too?

[onehandle]

37. The initial four are the primary killers of property values.

The tangent is yours.

[cleanhippie]

60. Nice cop out.

You dismissed a very valid point because it did not conform to your notion that every other business is just fine.

DO you have any evidence that a gun store brings down property values? Or is it just your keen intuition that gives you gems of information like that?

[PavePusher]

35. Gun shops bring down property values? ORLY?

Got evidence for that?

Here in Tucson, they're mostly in strip malls or mixed business/residential areas.

Most of the places I've lived, they're a real eastate sales bonus, especially if they have a decent gunsmith and an indoor range.

[onehandle]

38. Tucson, San Francisco. Some difference there I would say. nt

[Katya Mullethov]

43. Then the only logical thing to do is seize the property through imminent domain

And sell it to someone that can bring in more tax dollars for the city . If they could raise a mere HALF BILLION FUCKING DOLLARS .....then SF could build a new high school or install a couple dozen bidets for the homeless . That is why we're here .....ain't it ? And they need MOOOOARRRRRRR .

[PavePusher]

57. So, no evidence then? O.K..... n/t

[Callisto32]

46. Tell me how you protecting your "property value" gives you the right to keep certain neighbors out?

So long as it isn't "those people" right?

Tell you what, there are place around here where if Blacks or Hispanics move in, it lowers the surrounding property values, because the bigots don't want to live near them. Is it okay to keep them out too? After all, they lower property values.

Fuck that noise.

[onehandle]

50. Please post your address so that I can lobby to build a raw sewage plant across from it.

What's the harm?

[Callisto32]

54. That whoosing sound was the point going over your head.

All that property is already owned, so if you want to buy it all, and put up the capital to build the sewage plant I will move.

Besides, it isn't like people don't live near those things already. Edit: Around here, we call them hog farms.

P.S. Paper factories are WAY stinkier.

[Katya Mullethov]

55. Paper factories ?

I thought they made it from trees ...

[Callisto32]

67. awesome

:pals:

[cleanhippie]

61. Dance, dance, dance, dancing machine!!!!!

You have been asked several times to qualify your statement that gun shops reduce property values. You have yet to do that. But what you HAVE done is DANCE away from it, like you are playing dance revolution.



Fail.



Again.

[onehandle]

62. It's called Dance Dance Revolution, not dance revolution.

Sorry, I don't have time to comment in this thread anymore.

I have to attend a groundbreaking for a strip club between our local nursery school and elementary school.

Neighborhood parents are thrilled when our freedoms are preserved.

[cleanhippie]

63. So you have time to make snide comments, but no time to address the questions

posed to you?


I see that your agenda is really nothing more than spreading your unsubstantiated rhetoric and then dancing away from it when challenged.


Fail.




Yet again.

[shadowrider]

66. He/she is famous in this forum for that n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

72. It's the Lysenkoist school of gun control thought- Adjust the facts to fit the theory

Google "Lysenkoism" or "Trofim Lysenko" for an explanation

Since we cannot be executed or jailed for deviating from the 'party line', we get ignored.

[SteveM]

75. He makes one-liners with oblique close-call insults, but...

when he writes for more than a few lines, he loses conti- er, control.

[USNEO]

9. This reminds me of the phrase NIMBY

back in the 80's when they were deploying the new Peacekeeper ICBM, people had the NIMBY attitude, Not In My Back Yard.

[spin]

12. That was one major advantage of the Trident missile subs. (n/t)

[USNEO]

13. Definitly

I fully supported the Trident program over the Peacekeeper program, it's much harder to kill a SSBN than a stationary ICBM.

[spin]

14. Welcome to DU. (n/t)

[USNEO]

15. Thanks

Think I'm going to enjoy it.

[Euromutt]

65. Wasn't the whole point of the MX that it wasn't stationary?

I seem to recall it involved some kind of mobile launcher.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Or forcing neighborhood and school integration

[Euromutt]

17. If there's no demand for the product, the gun shop will go out of business

Problem solved.

If the gun shop doesn't go out of business, you have to ask yourself--as self-appointed guardians of the neighborhood--whether your opinion actually represents that of the residents in general.

It rather reminds me of the charges against Paul "Max Hardcore" Little and John "Buttman" Stagliano, accusing them of "distributing obscene materials," with the definition of "obscene" depending on "community standards." The problem I have with this claim is that both Max World Entertainment and Evil Angel sold their materials by mail order, the operative word being "order." The only way these guys would "distribute" their products to a particular geographical location is if a resident of that location (or a couple of FBI agents posing as such) requested and paid them to do so. And that, I would argue, should be adequate grounds for the seller to reasonably believe that the "community standards" of the purchaser are accepting of that material, and even if not, that's strictly speaking the buyer's problem since he's the one who took the initiative to have the materials brought into the community. (And, of course, when you're talking about undercover FBI agents ordering such materials in a community where nobody would normally buy them, thus causing the seller to ship those materials to a community where he would not otherwise ship them, you're talking entrapment.)

My point being that what people say and/or would like to think the standards or opinions in their community are not necessarily an accurate reflection of what those standards or opinions are. Nobody from outside San Francisco would go into the city to buy a firearm (with the added local sales tax, not to mention dealing with traffic), so if High Bridge Arms is staying in business, it's because there's sufficient demand for their merchandise within the city.

[Callisto32]

49. Hell, what about Tommy Chong?

He got sent up the river for mailing a bong to PA. I can tell you from personal experience that bongs are DEFINITELY acceptable by community standards around here....

What that really seems to mean is "the standards of the busybodies that would like to control everything in a given locale."

[slackmaster]

18. Wine and cheese shops attract rats and drunks

And Jaime Ross would rather have them in his neighborhood?

What a fool.

[proteus_lives]

23. Authoritarians have to try and control something.

Losers.

[-..__...]

25. That's why I love Frisco..

it's so 'cutting edge', 'imaginative', 'tolerant' and 'open minded', that I couldn't imagine anyone not wanting to live there.

:sarcasm:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. And keep calling it "Frisco". The residents just love that too

[S_B_Jackson]

40. Really?!?

How do they feel about being referred to as "BATS"?

[Hoopla Phil]

41. Or kooks???

[Euromutt]

42. Or "San Fran"

Eddie Izzard had a brilliant segment in Dress to Kill, IIRC, in which he rags the San Francisco audience about their not liking nicknames for the place.

San Francisco, San Francisco... not "San Fran," noooo. I'd have thought it was an obvious one, but (moaning voice) "No, you can't call it 'San Fran' wah, wah, wah. What's the other one you don't like? Oh yeah, "Frisco"!
(audience hisses en masse)
And you're a city of snakes, I see. Go to a gig, bring along a snake in your bag, and if somebody mentions "Frisco"... (mimes holding up a snake) Ssssss!

[Callisto32]

51. Funniest man ever to don a dress and plaform heels and walk accross a stage.

[krispos42]

26. The perhaps Jaime Ross should buy the building and open a laundromat

With a wine-and-cheese cafe inside.



I bet people like Jaime Ross think that gang-bangers hang around outside like teen hang out in front of a liquor store, begging passing patrons to buy them something.

"Hey, man, here's $20. Buy me a case of MGD and you can keep the rest!"

"Hey, man, here's $900. Buy me a Glock and you can keep the rest!"

:eyes:

[Callisto32]

44. People need to learn that they don't have a right to control what other people do with their land.

Unless their use is harming you or your property (REAL harm, not some nebulous "it'll reduce my property value" or other crap like that) where do you think you get off telling people what they can do with their stuff?

It was B.S. when the stupid rednecks around here filed out in droves to try and deny a zoning variance for a freakin BUDDHIST MONASTERY, it is B.S. that people are fighting that Islamic Center, and it's B.S. that they are fighting the gun shop.

[shadowrider]

52. Here's a compromise

Open a combination coin laundry/whine and cheese shop with a gun shop/shooting range in the back. Spend $100 on laundry or food/whine and get discounted prices on guns/range time.

[friendly_iconoclast]

64. Pick up some Boursin, a nice Pinot Grigio, and a set of grips for a M1911A

You, sir, are a marketing genius!

[cleanhippie]

58. I think the author misquoted Jamie Ross...

Alliance member Jaime Ross told me. They'd just "rather have something the neighborhood could enjoy - a laundry or wine and cheese shop."


I think the original quote was ".....a Whine and PUH-Lease shop".

[AtheistCrusader]

74. Just depends on who's ox is getting gored.

[Francis Marion]

76. Impossible.

San Francisco is a progressive sanctuary of openness, tolerance, and inclusion.

Therefore the incident described in the article never happened.

Whew! now the world is right again.