Chandler man shoots, kills 2 suspected gang members

[PavePusher]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/chandler/articles/2010/09/05/20100905chandler-shooting-two-dead.html

"The intruder who punched out a Chandler man while stealing beer at a keg party picked the wrong victim.

The man, who had been attempting to defend his wife during the beer theft, had a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Fearing for his life and under attack, he pulled out a gun and fatally shot two men believed by police to be gang members early Sunday morning.


"People in Arizona carry guns," said Detective David Ramer, a Chandler police spokesman. "You better be careful about who you are picking on."

More at link.




But I thought that guns in self-defense wouldn't work if A. Alcohol was present, no matter how directly or tangentially, B. The criminal already had his gun out, and C. If the victim had already been attacked and physically injured.

I'm pretty sure I've seen all of those espoused here at one time or another. I guess we can now kill a hat-trick of memes at once. Due to a good, prepared Citizen, at least one man is still alive who deserves to be.

Now, I wonder why Chicago and D.C. are so hell-bent on not trying this...?

[Skittles]

1. this is stupid beyond belief

even for this forum

[Euromutt]

4. You're absolutely right

Pulling a gun on someone in order to steal some beer because you felt you didn't get your $2 worth is indeed stupid beyond belief. And the guy who pulled the gun paid for it with his life.

Oh, you missed the bit where the gang member drew a gun first? It's a little way down:

When one of the intruders threatened the man with a gun, he pulled out his own gun and shot the two men to death, <Chandler PD spokesman Det. David> Ramer said.

[Hoopla Phil]

10. Your right. Steeling someones beer is not worth dieing for.

[cleanhippie]

16. What is, the criminal or your post?

Hard for me to tell which is more stupid.

[SteveM]

18. You're right, those thugs WERE stupid. Don't they read the news...?

I mean, trying to steal beer, threatening a woman, physically beating the man who came to her defense, then pulling a gun and threatening to shoot the man. In Arizona! PROFOUNDLY stupid, even for the typical thug.

I agree with you on this.

[proteus_lives]

26. Yep, those two assholes were very stupid.

[DesertFlower]

2. i lived 48 years of my life in new york where

i couldn't own a gun. one of the first things we did when we moved to phoenix was to buy a gun.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

5. Hee haw!

[gravity556]

6. Good shoot.

Crash a party, punch my wife, try to steal my beer and then have the unmitigated gall to pull a gun on me and I'll probably shoot you, too.

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. For a scenic state, AZ sure has lots of crime.

I appreciate the warning, maybe it's time to note it in the travel books.

[PavePusher]

12. Actually, Arizona really doesn't have any more crime than most other U.S. locales...

and less than many.

Note that Chandler is part of the Phoenix metro area, the fifth or sixth largest city in the U.S. It has a significant gang problem, in addition to being essentially ground zero for drug and illegal alien smuggling.

[cleanhippie]

17. Yeah, you should probably just stay home.

Safer for all of us that way.

[TheCowsCameHome]

25. You,

on the other hand, need to get out more.

[cleanhippie]

27. Maybe thats the case, but

you definitely need to stay home.

[madrchsod]

8. your last sentence shows you do not understand...

the issues in chicago. armed police were shot in chicago and you think that arming untrained citizens would be a good idea? the majority of the gun violence is gang on gang or domestic disputes. there were a couple of home owners that defended their property and lives this summer and i`m betting thy will not be charged with daley`s gun ban law.

[PavePusher]

11. I am unclear on what police shot by known criminals...

has to do with legally armed Citizens. Can you please explain? Also, if it would be such a problem in Chicago, why is it not a problem in the vast majority of the rest of the country? Are Chicagoans of lesser ability or trustworthiness than the rest of the nation?

P.S. Your first sentance shows you do not seem to understand Civil Rights and the differences between criminal actions and legal self defense.

[Pavulon]

13. If I am forced to pass through one of these shit holes

I would like to retain my civil rights. Define trained? I have training from the military (not all that great in hindsight), paid for training to improve at ipsc. Fire 500 rounds a month to keep up IPSC ratings.

Know the law and am a reasonable person. I would have no problem going through a third SSBI if I took a job that required clearance.

All that any my basic status as an American should allow me to retain a firearm in a hotel when I travel.

[one-eyed fat man]

15. They cannot be charged

Illinois pass a law a few years ago that prevents a homeowner who used an unregistered gun to defend himself from being charged with violating the gun registration requirement.

ILLINOIS LAW:

(720 ILCS 5/24-10)

Sec. 24-10. Municipal ordinance regulating firearms; affirmative defense to a violation. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of a municipal ordinance that prohibits, regulates, or restricts the private ownership of firearms if the individual who is charged with the violation used the firearm in an act of self-defense or defense of another as defined in Sections 7-1 and 7-2 of this Code when on his or her land or in his or her abode or fixed place of business.

(Source: P.A. 93-1048, eff. 11-16-04.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=320516&mesg_id=320782

This law was passed in response to a home invasion on December 29, 2003. Hale DeMar's home was invaded for the second night in a row. This time DeMar was prepared to defend his family and property -- he shot career thug Morio Billings, who was subsequently charged with felonies. But the anti-gun hysterics in Wilmette, IL lashed out at DeMar's action, arresting him for violating the town's handgun ban.

What you fail to understand is that the problem is not 68 year old Korean War vets who want something to protect themselves and their families. The gang-bangers and thug wannabees give a shit less about the law, they will have guns, regardless! You just insist all their potential VICTIMS remain unarmed and helpless.

[SteveM]

19. No one is "arming untrained citizens." Citizens can arm themselves...

The state, city or the federal government has no power to "arm untrained citizens" or any citizen. The citizen may choose to arm his or her self, abiding only by the laws in place regarding age, criminal record, adjudicated mental incompetency, and perhaps immediate locale.

Citizens arming themselves is eminently personal, a self-protection choice to which they have a right.

I must note that police are shot in many locales; that has no bearing on citizens choosing to exercise their 2A rights.

[one-eyed fat man]

9. Beer thieves???

What's with Arizona and the violent beer thieves? Here's another case where the beer thief hits a guy in the head with a wrench and takes the man's beer. When the robber hits the man again with the wrench, the victim has enough and shoots him.

Beer thief shot

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Its what the Sam Adams slogan is all about "Take Pride in Your Beer"

[Euromutt]

21. "Always a good choice!"

Maybe the Arizona summer makes people really thirsty.

[one-eyed fat man]

24. It'd really be a shame

if the shoot out was over some damn horsepiss Lite beer!

Ich bin ein echte Bayer, am München geboren, dem Bier Hauptstadt der Welt!



Heaven actually looks like Oktoberfest and the angels wear dirndls.

[SteveM]

20. It's not the p-diddly money or beer, it's the juice, the status, street cred.

I worked for a short time in the county slam and I asked a "client" (convicted robber) why robbers knock over a 7-11 when there is only a small amount of cash available. He said: "It ain't the money. I can go back to my friends and brag about it, and get laid. All the ladies love an outlaw."

Peee-YEW!

[shadowrider]

22. All I can say is, if these were in fact 2 gang members, he REALLY needs a gun now n/t

[slackmaster]

23. Very sad, tragic waste of life.

Maybe a legally justifiable shooting, but it sounds like a messy situation all around. I personally would have left the party long before it got violent.

[mvccd1000]

28. Followup - one of the criminals had a felony warrant at the time of his death

See the comments at the bottom of this article from the East Valley Tribune for the link to the Superior Court website:

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/local/chandler/article_ded20260-baaf-11df-a40b-001cc4c03286.html

The man who shot the two men, who both were documented gang members, pulled out his gun as he was being kicked and beaten on the ground after trying to stop them from leaving the house with a keg of beer, said Detective Dave Ramer, a Chandler police spokesman. One of the men who was shot had pulled out a gun and was waving it in a threatening manner, Ramer said.

Police responded to complaints of a party that had gotten out of hand in the 600 block of North Sunland Drive shortly after 1 a.m. and found that the two men had been shot. The shooter initially was arrested and detained while police questioned witnesses, but after gathering information police determined the shooting was in self-defense.

[-..__...]

29. Even more good news...

Chandler police have arrested seven other men and plan to recommend that they be charged not only with robbery but with murder because the slayings occurred during the commission of another crime, Ramer said.

[ManiacJoe]

30. That would be the now common Felony Murder law.

Unfortunately, it is often misapplied as in this case, in my opinion.