ABC News Falsely Claims “Three in Four” Guns in Mexico Comes From the United States...

[spin]

Tuesday, September 7th, 2010 at 3:22 pm

Michigan --(Ammoland.com)- More than a year and a half ago numbers circulated that 80 percent of the guns used by Mexican cartels came from the United States, but then the numbers were examined more closely.

That 80 percent number was in fact only counting guns that were actually sent back to the United States for confirmation. In other words, not all the guns confiscated in Mexico even were actually submitted to American authorities, yet the 80 percent number stuck, and it was reported over and over again.

We note this because now ABC News is now reporting that “as many as three out of four guns used in crimes in Mexico can be traced to guns stores just across the border in the U.S.” This sounds all too familiar.

So let’s take a close look at what ABC News says, and more importantly what they don’t say.

First, the news organization notes: “the study, based on Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) data and prepared by the advocacy group Mayors Against Illegal Guns, shows that three out of four guns used in crimes in Mexico and submitted for tracing were sold in the four U.S. states that border Mexico.”

What they said, “and submitted for tracing,” meaning we’re back to the situation a year and a half ago, or in other words this is pretty much a revised ”80 percent of guns” statistic.

What they didn’t say was how many guns are not submitted for tracing, which could be substantially higher than the number of guns seized. The news story noted some “19,000 guns used in crime in Mexico were traced to an original sale at a US gun dealer.” That’s amazing, but 19,000 for a border war this big sounds like a small number of firearms. Of course, there is no mention of the TOTAL number of guns seized in Mexico.
http://www.ammoland.com/

[Hoopla Phil]

1. Get ready for a slew of anti-gun news articles.

Virginia Mountainman just posted a thread about seeing a rise in them and I just posted a thread about how the Senate just announced a hearing scheduled on the 14th regarding firearms commerce.

We are going to have to stay very vigilant at disproving the lies that these news articles will be promoting.

[spin]

9. Politicians often believe that if they tell the same lie over and over ...

people will believe that it is gospel.

I agree that we have to be the watch dogs who carefully smell the news reports and bark when we sense deceit. That, of course, applies to both pro and anti RKBA articles.

[Kolesar]

2. So, how many "guns" do come from the United States?

Gross numbers, proportions, what do you have??

[oneshooter]

3. The more important questions would be

How many of the US made weapons recovered by Mexico are full auto, and how many are semi-auto?

Of the full auto, how many were sold/given to the Mexican Government?

Of the semi-auto, how many have been traced to final purchaser? And how many of these people have been located and arrested?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[slackmaster]

5. The answer is "some". IMO the elephant in the room is what the Mexican government is not saying.

Which is, how many of the weapons being used by their criminal gangs were previously in the Mexican government's own armories. Most of those came from the USA originally, but for some strange reason the cited figures don't mention a single one being recovered from criminals.

They're only submitting for tracing weapons that they know won't put the Mexican military and police in a bad light.

[Kolesar]

7. Or "I don't care"...eom

[slackmaster]

13. In fact I do not care. Mexico's problem is violent crime perpetrated by Mexican criminals.

My country is tangentially responsible due to its futile prosecution of the War On (some) Drugs, but that shouldn't be used as a lever to restrict the rights of US citizens or of Mexicans.

[spin]

19. Restricting the rights of American citizens by a new AWB will do NOTHING ...

to eliminate the drug war in Mexico.

Any person with a tiny amount of commonsense and just a little knowledge of the situation would realize this. The sad part is that some politicians feel that they have to pander to the anti-RKBA fraction of the party and push for a new assault weapons ban.

The trill of passing "feel good" laws is waning. Most citizens understand the issue far better than they did when the last assault weapons ban was passed.

[benEzra]

17. How about the glaringly obvious fact that the U.S.-made military hardware the Zetas et al are using

IS NOT SOLD ON THE U.S. CIVILIAN MARKET?

Yes, select-fire M16's/M4's, M203 grenade launchers, and U.S.-style hand grenades are made by U.S. companies. But the Zetas aren't getting those at U.S. gun stores; they're getting them through government supply channels, and they're not being diverted on this side of the border...

[TheWraith]

20. I've heard that the Mexican military has supposedly lost several hundred thousand M16s.

No citation, it's just a rumor. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[shadowrider]

24. Yea, they "lost" them for several hundred (thousand?) apiece

No proof, just a guess.

[Hoopla Phil]

8. "3,480 out of 30,000. Looks like a famous 10%."

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/robert-farago/abc-gets-it-wrong-on-american-gun-in-mexican-drug-war/

The whole quote:
"DHS officials believe that the 87 percent statistic is misleading as the reference should include the number of weapons that could not be traced (i.e. out of approximately 30,000 weapons seized in Mexico, approximately 4,000 could be traced and 87 percent of those — 3,480 — originated in the United States.) Numerous problems with the data collection and sample population render this assertion as unreliable.

So you have 3,480 out of 30,000. Looks like a famous 10%."

[Kolesar]

10. Wow, they seized 30,000 weapons in Mexico

What a great market for firearms. Capitalistic fervor!

[Hoopla Phil]

11. I wouldn't consider the illicit trade in guns and drugs to be "Capitalistic"

but criminal. Take a look at the cash seized in one raid, they got a lot of guns in this one too.

On edit: I'm wondering how many of the guns traced back to the U.S. were stolen from U.S. citizens.

[spin]

15. Wow, that's a bunch of cash ...

and it shows a good reason to legalize some drugs and tax them.

[one-eyed fat man]

28. All that cash

All that money should give some dopers pause in a sober moment and let them accept the fact it is their MONEY that pays for the killing in Mexico.

They want to blame the governments that made the weed illegal for causing the illicit trade yet deny their complicity by refusing to admit that without their DEMAND for the drug, no one would bother to fill it.

They may not be pulling the trigger, but they damn sure pay for the bullets!

[Callisto32]

30. You keep harping on this.

Doing so denies human motivation. People want substances, they will pay for them. The vast majority of people using those substances don't hurt people in the process, so they don't think that money is funding violence. HOWEVER, there would be no need for violence if the substances were not illegal. Using substances is not morally wrong, but telling people what to do with their body is. Why not take the principled approach and strike the root of the problem, the illegality, rather than just suggesting that people should accept that there is an immoral law and change their otherwise non-violent behavior?

[Katya Mullethov]

32. It takes near Herculean effort to resist

Look up and down this page at all the people that got sucked into the "US gun show fueling border war" meme . Its a buncha bullshit , its obfuscation . Its just another hat trick and has been since I was a wee lad . Prohibition is so ingrained in our collective consciousness as to be inescapable truth in life and simply the way things are .

[one-eyed fat man]

33. I know we disagree

You insist that since the consumer of the product does not actually participate in the distribution chain he is guileless. Let's change the commodity to tuna fish. There was a big hue and cry over fishing methods which ensnared dolphins.

How was the problem solved? Boycotts! The people who ate tuna fish REFUSED to buy it until it was certified "dolphin free." If you insisted on "dead Mexican free dope" by not buying it........

But we will continue to disagree, you will blame the government, not the consumer. I will continue to remind the consumer the consequences of his consumption.

But we can be pretty certain there won't a boycott of dead Mexican dope because dopers are not willing to give up dope until the laws are changed to make dope legal.

So the situation is what it is. The demand for dope is so high, the profits are so staggeringly immense that people are willing to tolerate corruption, mayhem and murder (as long as they didn't see it personally) to satisfy their desire.

Actually, the Saint Valentine's Day massacre in 1929 did a lot to take the "romance" out of bootleg whiskey, speakeasies and the gangsters who built the distribution empires. It contributed to the shift in public opinion that led to the repeal of the Volstead Act. Even then some politicians were reluctant, not because of moral objections, but because the graft lining their pockets was so immense.

But for the killing to stop one of two things will have to happen. Either the government will legalize it, or the the dopers will quit buying it. I ain't holding my breath.

[SteveM]

22. I wonder how much of the MONEY was traced back to the U.S.!

[Callisto32]

29. Now not only guns, but profit is evil.

Independent thought doesn't hurt as much as you think it does.

[friendly_iconoclast]

34. Not a lot of guns from a country of >105 million people.

With a far higher murder rate than the US.

[benEzra]

14. And of the minority that *does* come from the states,

how many are NFA Title 2 restricted military/police-only guns as opposed to NFA Title 1 civilian guns?

A whole lot of the obviously U.S.-made guns I've seen in news reports can't be legally sold at all on the U.S. civilian market, but are sold directly to governments (including the Mexican government/military) by U.S. companies. For example:



Look closely; those are NFA Title 2 restricted uppers on those carbines, not Title 1 civilian-length AR-15 uppers; those are most likely full auto police/military only M4's. Ditto for the M203 grenade launchers, 40mm M203 rounds, and hand grenades, ALL of which are an automatic 10-year Federal felonies to possess in the United States outside of police/military duty, unless you first obtain a BATFE Form 4 or are a government supplier. I see a few guns that may be civilian in the mix, but almost everything in that photo comes from the U.S. military and police market, not the U.S. civilian market.



And in this pic, that's an M4 type carbine on the table with, again, VERY short military/police upper (possibly a 10.5")---in context, a very good clue that it's likely a Title 2 military/police assault rifle, not a civilian non-automatic Title 1 "assault weapon". I also see what appears to be a rocket launcher, a belt-fed machinegun, and more hand grenades, all of which will net you a 10-year felony per violation in this country unless you obtain a Form 4 or are part of the government/military/police supply chain.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, the Zetas et al are not buying their military hardware at U.S. civilian gun stores any more than they are buying their cocaine and heroin legally at U.S. pharmacies.

[Callisto32]

31. "My gun-shop shopping list:"

M240B- $45,000

LAW- $10,000

10.5" Barreled AR-15 upper- Actually not that expensive, but needs gov't paperwork and a $200 tax stamp.

Realizing that this stuff is so regulated and expensive that very very few people in the United States own them and those that do NEVER use them in crimes (except the occasional police officer) and that the media has been lying to you because they just don't care about the truth because gunz are icky?

Priceless.

[SteveM]

21. Who knows? It is incumbent upon those making a claim in this regard...

to make their OWN case, and subject that case to scrutiny.

Incidentally, in most wars -- and this is a "war" -- one side can point to their chief armorer: the other side. The grenades, RPGs, full-auto weapons, etc., now being used by the cartels are NOT coming from Joe's Gun Show, but from military sources; most probably the Mexican military, via hijackings, corruption, "loss," etc. In THAT way "most guns" would in all likelihood be coming from the U.S. Keep in mind also that after years of Central American guerrilla and counter-insurgency efforts in which the U.S. has been involved, there are hundreds of thousands of such weapons south of the border. South of the Mexican border, that is.

[Kolesar]

25. Ammoland.com?

[PavePusher]

27. Truth to power, eh? What's the problem? n/t

[SteveM]

36. Your answer is not responsive. You posed a question...

If you have an answer, then let's hear it. The Ammoland information seeks to dispute MSM's oft-used claim. They are under no obligation to provide an answer to your question; it only disputes the methodology used by MSM, the Mexican government and others.

[Katya Mullethov]

4. It aint the guns ,and it aint the dope , it's the stellar profit margins

Everything else is just obfuscation .

[spin]

6. I wonder what percentage goes to normal citizens ...

who are just looking for a weapon to use for self defense in a country rapidly going mad.

[SteveM]

23. Good question. Same applies to black market sales in Chicago, N.Y.C., D.C. nt

[spin]

26. Yes, plenty of otherwise honest citizens illegally own weapons ...

in such gun unfriendly places.

Wife of 80-year-old who shot intruder: 'He saved our lives'
May 27, 2010 5:20 AM

As an 80-year-old Army veteran, his wife and great-grandson slept in their Humboldt Park home just before dawn Wednesday, a would-be burglar busted a basement window, crawled over discarded bikes and paint buckets, and made his way up winding stairs to an enclosed porch.

The intruder -- who police said wore stockings over his hands to keep from leaving prints -- wiggled the brass doorknob of the locked door that led to the first-floor apartment, but it didn't open, the family said. He then turned to the oversized glass window of the 80-year-old's bedroom, pulled out his gun and shot, police and family said.

But just as the man got off a second round, the homeowner, who had a handgun of his own, fired a single shot, killing the intruder, a police source said.

***snip***

"He saved our lives," said the man's wife, 83, who had been asleep with her husband when the noise of shattered glass startled the family from its sleep about 5:20 a.m.

Police let the Korean War veteran, who walks with the aid of a cane, go without filing immediate charges because he appeared to act in self-defense, according to police sources.

The homeowner bought his handgun after being robbed just six months ago, having vowed not to be a victim again, his family said.
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/05/would-be-burglar-shot-to-death-by-west-side-resident.html

[SteveM]

35. I saw one news account of sale in Mexico which speculated on same thing...

I can't remember what broadcast it was, but the announcer had reported speculation that a considerable number of firearms being smuggled into Mexico were sold to Mexican citizens, esp. owners of small business.

[Hoopla Phil]

12. I wonder if any of these "guns" were traced back to the U.S?

[benEzra]

16. From U.S. manufacturers *via the Mexican government*, not U.S. gun stores. (n/t)

[Hoopla Phil]

18. Exactly! nt