A law abiding gun owner right up until the moment he wasn't.

[sharesunited]

Needed his gun to defend his home and family.

Whom he executed.

Go figure.

Carry on.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/27/florida.killings/index.html?hpt=T2

[dmallind]

1. A law abiding knife owner right up until the moment he wasn't.

Needed the knife to cook for his family.

Whom he executed.

Go figure.

Carry on.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/family-of-six-stabbed-to-death-in-rishon-letzion-home-set-ablaze-1.5964

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

4. Please chime in here..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=292384

[dmallind]

6. Really? Guns can be used for target sports, hunting, self defense, historical collections.....NT

[dmallind]

7. Having said that, as an EXACT mirror of the OP, it is a stupid argument of course

and quite intentionally so. There is absolutely no significant difference in the stories beyond the tool used. Since it's easier for people to kill others with guns than knives (which no idiots is not a gotcha moment - I doubt there is a single person who does not know and agree with that statement on either side of this issue) most people with access to both would choose to use a gun for this kind of mayhem rather than a knife.

That however does not make it either mpossible or even particularly difficult to use a knife (see link, search for news of stabbing deaths) nor the "fault" of the inanimate object chosen in either case. People loony enough to murder their whole families or masses of strangers even will find a way. You can see that with a listing of the highest victim-count mass murders throughout modern times, where guns are far from the most destructiive or "successful" tool used. Hint - worst school mass murder was neither Columbine nor Va Tech, but Bath, Michigan.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. Knives have one purpose... to cut.

Guns have one purpose... to propel a projectile.

It is not the purpose of the tool that matters.
Nor is it the intentoin of a tool's designer/creator.
It is the intent of the weilder which ultimately matters.

[SteveM]

10. The cat cept into the crypt, crapped, then crept out again. nt

[Callisto32]

12. I don't know, we manage to use them to provide food, without many shootings...of people.

[proteus_lives]

18. We know you think rights are stupid.

Your "position" isn't hard to figure out.

[sharesunited]

40. What about the rights of his family not to have bullets enter their bodies and kill them?

Your value system seems to elevate the convenient power to kill as a superior right.

[dmallind]

41. Of course those rights are superior - but already protected

Laws against murder are very strict.

The power to kill is in no way dependent on using bullets. It is not better or worse to kill using bullets than by other means, so the penalties are equal too. If you want to deprive people of the power to kill easily you have to not only outlaw all potential weapons such as bats and knives and hammers and chisels, but outlaw inequality of strength and aggression too - which would mean isolating all children for a start. Why is it useful to simply deprive them of just one means to kill easily, especially when it also deprives them of the right of effective self defense against those with superior strength and aggression, which is the one thing that can never be legislated away?

[slackmaster]

42. Those rights were infringed

By the shooter.

[kctim]

3. Fear!

It does a body good. Live in it.

[lawodevolution]

5. Read this thread to understand why the OP is using a bad form of argument

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=341331&mesg_id=341331

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

8. Do you condone taking innocent people's computers?

After all... they are law abiding internet/computer users right up until the moment they are are not? Right?

If the purpose of your thread title is NOT that people shouldn't be allowed to own firearms on the basis of what crimes they might be able to commit... then what is the purpose of your post and thread title?

[slackmaster]

11. Please explain how you know with certainty that the man wasn't subject to a restraining order...

...and had no other characteristics, such as a felony conviction or dishonorable discharge from the military, that would have made him not a law-abiding gun owner.

[spin]

14. Of course he was subject to a restraining order...

Murder-suicide leaves six dead in Riviera Beach

RIVIERA BEACH, Fla. - Police say a South Florida man who killed his estranged wife and four stepchildren went after the woman with a knife less than a year ago, telling her "you will be going to the morgue."

The woman had locked herself in a bathroom until he left during that incident.

Riviera Beach Police say Natasha Whyte-Dell had a restraining order against her estranged husband, Patrick Dell. But a family friend says Dell followed the woman everywhere and was jealous and possessive.

***snip***

Neighbor Keisha Gordon said she was with Dell at a club late Sunday night when he was asked to leave because he was drunk and causing trouble. Dell didn't go out a lot, but he did have a temper, she said.

"He was talking about chopping up somebody," 30-year-old Gordon said, standing across the street from the yellow house with the green trim now cordoned off by police tape.

They left the club and continued partying at a nearby park, where Dell was also asked to leave, she said.

"He always felt like people was against him," she said.
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/state/murder-suicide-leaves-six-dead-in-riviera-beach

It would be interesting to know if he purchased the firearm legally or if he owned the firearm when the restraining order was issued. It should have been possible to require him to turn in any firearms he owned.

Is there anything I can do to make it more likely that the abuser's gun is taken away when I get an injunction for protection against domestic violence?

Florida state law says that anyone with a final injunction for protection against domestic violence currently in effect against him/her cannot have or buy a firearm.* By law, the final injunction for protection against domestic violence should state that it is against the law for the respondent to have any firearm or ammunition in his or her care, custody, possession, or control.**

However, here are a couple things you can ask for in court:

* If the abuser has a gun, tell the judge how many guns he has, and if he has ever threatened you with a gun(s).
* Ask the judge to mark a check next to number 3(b) on page 3 of your injunction, and to write in the county sheriff’s office where the abuser has to surrender his/her guns.
* Before leaving the courthouse, check to make sure that this box is checked on your injunction.

It also may be helpful if the judge explains what will happen to the abuser's guns, who will take them, and where they will be held once you leave the courthouse. The judge can add this information next to number 3(c) on page 3 of your injunction. Therefore, you may also want to ask that the judge:

* Require the police to go to the abuser's house and get the guns.
* Make it clear to both you and the abuser how long the guns will be kept away from your abuser.
* Order that the police notify you when the guns are returned to your abuser.
http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_type.php?id=268&state_code=FL&open_id=9294#content-9300

[slackmaster]

17. You beat me by about two minutes, spin

Will sharesunited admit error?

[spin]

24. I try to wait a while before I post or reply to a breaking news story ...

Often the details are vague and sometimes incorrect.

It doesn't sound like Dell was a honest gun owner who suddenly went nuts, it sounds like he had problems and there were plenty of red flags involving his prior behavior.

If i had been Natasha Whyte-Dell, I would have bought a firearm and obtained a concealed weapons permit. I would have made every attempt I could to gain proficiency with my firearm and I would have carried with me even at home.

[slackmaster]

28. My favorite tactic is to be an early predictor of "the rest of the story"

When the story involves someone suddenly "snapping" and committing a mass murder, it's usually a pretty safe bet that there was some kind of warning. Anyone who shoots up a workplace usually has a troubled history and has given off numerous warnings.

When sharesunited says something about someone being a law-abiding gun owner right up until such a moment, it's almost 100% certain that the person actually wasn't.

[merqz]

34. Restraining orders are DIFFERENT from Protection or No Contact orders

The difference is that there does not necessarily have to be a claim of domestic violence to get a restraining order. they are routinely issued over divorce/custody issues where no actual violence is alleged to have occurred, or suspected.

A restraining order does not automatically disqualify one from firearms ownership.

Under VAWA, somebody who is the subject of a DOMESTIC ABUSE restraining order is prohibited. Not all restraining order are domestic abuse restraining order.

This distinguishes from, for example, No-Contact order. A No-contact order is issued when a person is arrested or charged with a domestic violence crime.

[merqz]

33. are you saying dishonorable discharge is a disqualifier?

I'm not aware of that. Are you sure?

[slackmaster]

35. 922 (d) (6) of the United States Code

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

[merqz]

36. Thank you

I love learning new things. In the immortal words of Johnny Carson "I did not know that"

[PavePusher]

45. D.D.'s almost always involve felony acts. n/t

[slackmaster]

13. "Police records reveal that Dell had a violent history..."

"...he was previously arrested on charges of aggravated assault with a weapon five days before Christmas 2009. His wife and a friend called 911 in a panic, saying he was trying to kill them...."

Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020031741?Murder-Suicide%20Leaves%20Husband,%20Wife,%20Children%20Dead#ixzz10lJFjvD3

Color me SHOCKED! Maybe he wasn't so law-abiding after all.

It still remains to be seen if he had any disqualifying conditions, such as a criminal conviction or restraining order. I don't buy the gun banners' argument that people who have no history of violence suddenly snap and kill a bunch of people.

[Glassunion]

16. Is it just me...

or do the majority of these stories lately end up this way?

Grandma suddenly snaps and kill family... Turns out that "suddenly" part took a long time and we found that she had mental issues well before this incident.

This guy was law abiding right up until he was not... Turns out he was not law abiding for some time.

Crazy nut job in Costco destroying merchandise and making threats to the employees... Was not...

Soccer mom pulls gun on children after her daughter's team lost... One problem... There was no gun.

etc...

[slackmaster]

19. The majority of these stories do indeed end up this way

Initial reports often omit key details that are relevant for proper analysis of the story in context of this forum.

[slackmaster]

15. "Police said there was a restraining order against Dell,..."

...who was in the midst of a divorce from his wife. He had gone after his wife with a knife in December, telling her "you will be going to the morgue," police said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hTxage8xTTyro0yPb8zvYM009mbgD9IGDJD80

Hey sharesunited, are you prepared to retract your bad guess about him being "law abiding" now?

[Bold Lib]

21. Well, another to add to the list of classics.

Soccer mom that pulled a gun - no gun.
Man kills people with gun - it was a knife
Man shoots up town square with AK-47 - never happened

Oh how the list keeps growing.

[Glassunion]

22. Is it that guns are bad... Or the reporters? nt

[slackmaster]

23. Reporters with guns

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

26. What kind of 1911 is that?

The aggressive squared off trigger guard strikes me as odd. Plus it's using double stack mags and nor does it have an ambidextrous safety. Interesting...

My initial guess would be a very custom Para (more money put into it than it's worth) or an oddly set up STI/SVI 2011.

[-..__...]

31. I was wondering the same thing myself.

It could be a piece of chrome plated crap... or the owner doesn't take care of it very well (notice the pitting on the barrel bushing and guide rod. The muzzle crown is showing a bit of neglect/abuse also)...

[spin]

25. i learned years ago to be careful of breaking news stories ...

There was a tornado in Pinellas County Florida, five people were confirmed dead.

The next morning I found that only three people had been killed. Either we had a miracle and two people rose from the dead or the news media screwed up.

[lawodevolution]

27. Can you link us to these threads?

Soccer mom that pulled a gun - no gun.
Man kills people with gun - it was a knife
Man shoots up town square with AK-47 - never happened

I wanted to use them.

[Bold Lib]

29. here's the shooting that turned out to be a knifing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com//discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x330300

It may take a while to get them all, I'm not real good with the search feature.

[Bold Lib]

30. man with an AK

http://www.democraticunderground.com//discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x270147

[Bold Lib]

32. Apologies, I remembered the soccer mom one wrong. She was a vollyball mom.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x338967

[lawodevolution]

38. Thanks

[merqz]

46. frankly., i have no idea

It is definitely ALLEGED that he did these things. Was he adjudicated guilty? Did he admit to them? Were there witnesses, etc?

[proteus_lives]

20. And we should lose our rights, why?

You've never been able to answer that question.

[cleanhippie]

37. Boring. Get a new act, this one is stale.

Repeating your unfounded claims and baseless assertions over and over will not make them any less false, man.

[Remmah2]

39. Government protects you right up to the moment it doesen't.. nt

nt

[slackmaster]

43. I'm not seeing an acknowledgement by sharesunited that the shooter was NOT "law abiding"

Why is that?

[cleanhippie]

44. We will never see acknowledgement from sharesunited that he was wrong. Again!

I have yet to see him be correct, about anything. He is a hit-and-run, fact free poster. Very cowardly acts, I think.